Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

VPK

I hope we will have a system of "like and unlike" here, as they do at facebook, so we can vote for the blogs and comments of each other.

This will help us to moderate this bad trend of labelling and insult. I hope.

Dear Friends

I am glad you find some people popular. Good for you.

My point is a little different. I prefer to base my opinions on merits of an argument. Not on whether I like the person who is making it.

Putting aside Faramarz let us get to the general issue. If say NIAC makes a good argument should people dismiss it because they hate NIAC? If Fred makes a good argument should those who don't like him dismiss it? I would hope not. Let people make their arguments. Then I will make up my mind based on merit not the person.

That was the point, Faramarz :)

Didam kheili dast o del-bazy, goftam manam biam majizeto begam, balke aghab namounam, LOL

But I was honest.

Souri Jaan!

Next time I have a date with a hot chick I'll make sure that she has a hot younger brother!

Faramarz is probably is the nicest person IC has ever had!

Agreed!

Me too !

LOL;

Got my vote on this blog, VPK

Shekar, you make a good point regarding blog's like MK's  envouraging the sort of uncivil discord VPK has mentioned. The question is why the IC community is so receptive to his methods. If IC is to be a digital cradle for an Iranian democracy, removing the likes of MK works against the plan  because such unethical abuse of forums are out there in the real world. MK and the like need to stay on IC and hopefully our IC culture will evolve to guide them or ignore them. How else are we going to know if we have grown sophisticated enough for a democracy?   

Thank You Uncle G!

And next time that I have a date with a hot chick I'll make sure that she has a younger sister for you!

Shekar - thanks for your post.

Shekar-jan:  I agree and disagree; but I think I know what you meant: so really I actually agree.  Is that clear?  I didn't think so.  Let me explain:

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Free speech ordinairly includes the right to be a racist speaker:

National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 USC 33 (1977) (Supreme Court allowed on First Amendment grounds the Nazi party's speech, assembly, and protest rights against State government injunctions).  

Free speech also includes the right to use the F-word - there are exceptions: e.g., you can't tell a judge to F-off (you can't have a trial if everyone wanted to keep saying the F word in the middle).  

Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971) (Vietnam era "Fuck the Draft." - gov't can't punish speech). 

Here's the Issue:  

Falsely calling someone an "IRI agent," on the other hand, can subject someone to violence; investigations, and other forms of tangible harm.  It's also used as a threat to chill speech (it's a very anti Free speech threat).  

This site is a private site - it can ban the "F-word," it can ban racism, it can even ban the "IRI agent" nonsense.   But striking the right balance is also important to maintaining the evenhandedness of the platform.  If we banned everything that was unfit for children to read, there would be no books (or websites) left for adults.  

Hopefully someone will read this and it will shed light on the issue.   My personal opinion is that if you call someone an "IRI agent" - that's fine - but you should have to substantiate it or have it retracted from the site.  Personally, concerning the F-word (I don't care ["F-my job"] but if it's used as an insult ["F-you"], it doesn't add much to the conversation); like all private sites I say get rid of overt racism (e.g. get rid of articles praising Hitler for killing people, etc. ... but not simply articles about Hitler ... I hope you see the nuance. ) 

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Hating other users and calling it "humor"

by Shekar on Wed Aug 24, 2011 06:04 PM PDT

With all the respect I have for this site and for its founder and editor, Mr. Javid, I still believe that hate speech does not equal free speech. 

One of the reasons people become angry and their anger shows in their behavior is that this site would allow someone like Massoud Kazemzadeh to write hateful and libelous blogs about other members of the site, trying to pass it as "humor".  This is very dangerous and not funny at all.

Not too long ago, he wrote a blog under the title of "Top Ten Members of NIAC", and put the names of several Islamic Republic officials, including Asadollah Lajevardi, and Ahmed Chalabi next to the name of Dr. Ahmad Sadri, a regular contributor to the site, whose views I can only assume Kazemzadeh does not share.  I doubt Ahmad Sadri has ever engaged in any discussions with Massoud Kazemzadeh on this site.  Feeling emboldened by that move, this week he wrote and attacked several other site contributors with whom he has had disagreements in the past.  This is nothing but vicious hating which has gone unchecked and unmonitored for a long time.

So long as people like Kazemzadeh are allowed to continue slandering and terrorizing the community without consequence, they would create hate and sustain it in the community.

We need rules that would put an end to people calling each other names once and for all.

Faramarz is probably is the nicest person IC has ever had!

I second that. And having gotten to know him through his fun and serious contributions to this site, I would like to add that Faramarz is one the most logical and sober-minded individuals I have encountered in my life.

Dear Shekar

I am generally for free speech. But I do see your point. I have seen people attack NIAC from every angle. Now I understand some people do not like NIAC. That is their right but why all the hate?

NIAC is a legal organization under United States law. If it was really an IRI front then I figure FBI would take care of it. 

If someone does not like NIAC fine; don't like it. But making claims like the "Top Ten" does cross the line. An article may be appropriate for the "Onion" but not for IC. People take these things seriously. Perhaps there should be a clear "Satire" label required for such articles.

مرسی اون یارو از لطفت!

ولی این اسم شما "اون یارو"  معانی مختلفی داره، باید مواظب بود!

مقصود اونه کدوم یاروست؟

dear Anahid

Very good point!

The publisher should put more emphasize to restrict  this trend.

We are not here to play the detective or police.

Enough is enough!

Dear Anahid re: agents

I agree with you completely. I don't care if someone is an agent or not. It is the argument that either has merit or not. Besides given the anonymity there is no way to tell if someone is an agent.

As you rightly put it does not matter. If their argument makes sense then I listen. If not then I don't and each of us needs to decide for ourselves.

Hating other users and calling it "humor"

With all the respect I have for this site and for its founder and editor, Mr. Javid, I still believe that hate speech does not equal free speech. 

One of the reasons people become angry and their anger shows in their behavior is that this site would allow someone like Massoud Kazemzadeh to write hateful and libelous blogs about other members of the site, trying to pass it as "humor".  This is very dangerous and not funny at all.

Not too long ago, he wrote a blog under the title of "Top Ten Members of NIAC", and put the names of several Islamic Republic officials, including Asadollah Lajevardi, and Ahmed Chalabi next to the name of Dr. Ahmad Sadri, a regular contributor to the site, whose views I can only assume Kazemzadeh does not share.  I doubt Ahmad Sadri has ever engaged in any discussions with Massoud Kazemzadeh on this site.  Feeling emboldened by that move, this week he wrote and attacked several other site contributors with whom he has had disagreements in the past.  This is nothing but vicious hating which has gone unchecked and unmonitored for a long time.

So long as people like Kazemzadeh are allowed to continue slandering and terrorizing the community without consequence, they would create hate and sustain it in the community.

We need rules that would put an end to people calling each other names once and for all.

VPK what is your chinese astrology????

Were you born in the year of the wood dragon???

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_astrology

to see what you are?

About consistency

If anyone read my post I just said I wanted to do my home work. How is that inconsistent? I think we should all do our home work before deciding things. How am I supposed to know about a case I never heard of until 2 days ago?

Many people jump as soon as they hear IRI. I just want to know the facts before I make up my mind. That is probably why I come across as "all over the map". Because I do not fit a particular mold. I am not uniformly on one side. Rather I base each position on its own merit. That is probably why I appear inconsistent.

Agha VPK : 99.999% of the time I disagree with Mo Ala but

this time he is right Iranians have a long way to go!

Dear VPK, I have not seen that comment

But hopefully the person meant it jokingly. I don't think it is bad that you wanted to do more research. I think another disturbing trend is another blogger wanting to identify IRI agents. If we are opposed to some idea, we fight the idea, we are not 10 yaer old to be influenced by an IRI agent so who cares if an IRI agent posts here? I don't care and I don't need big brother to identify the IRI agent(s) or Israeli agents or ...for me.

VPK

Before you get too excited and get bent out of shape about what I said, here is what I meant.

When I said "I am watching you, so you better not jump all over the map!" I meant that I am following what you are saying on this topic to me and others and please don't tell me one thing and tell the next person another thing which I believe is what you are doing on this topic.

You are all over the map with your comments, but I think that I have a good idea about where you are.

Try to be consistent and sincere. This is not a popularity contest.

.........

I agree with Oon Yaroo! It is about consistency!

Dear Oon Yaroo

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I guess we have to agree to disagree. That is all I will say about this.

VPK: Faramarz is probably is the nicest person IC has ever had!

I think he meant to say that he is going to make sure that you stay "consistent" in the statements you make! Consistency is a virtue! My 1/2 cent!

well said Khorasani

on that note, the problem has to do with control,

sometimes people feel that certain ideas threaten theirs and they need to attack,

defense is the best policy, just state your case and respectfully describe your feelings of why a persons opinon does not work for you.

Dear Anahid

Thank you for clarification I do agree that IC blogs are open forums. 

By the way things are not getting any better. I just had another blogger post this about me on another thread about the Iranian woman Shahrzad. "I am watching you, so you better not jump all over the map!"

My offense was to say that I did not know anything about the woman. And that I wanted to do my homework before making a judgment.

It is this sort of attitude that creates a climate of fear. Where people are "being watched". Maybe he is joking but I do not find it funny. Coming from Iran I am very sensitive to "being watched". Why do I not have the right to make up my own mind?

I agree too.

I agree too....several valuable members are not with IC because of what you stated.

We, as a community have a LONG WAY to go.

I agree VPK

Only investors own IC and even they can not tell someone not to be on some blog because this is a public forum not someone's house. I think the person who ordered you out, actually used a language as if his blog is like his house. But he is normally a sweetheart so pardon him.

I agree VPK.

.

The moon is falling ... the moon is falling

" by Oon Yaroo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 04:39 PM PDT ...simple discussions about it [MEK] ha[ve] riled many people up to the point of the destruction of the site! " -----------------------------------------------------------------   More often than not unpopular speech (excluding mere insults) that create dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or that stirs people to anger is the best way of developing ideas, seeing the ideological landscape, solving  vexing problems, and reaching consensus on the best path forward.    It does NOT lead to "destruction of the site."  The moon is not falling.    The gist of what VPK is saying is that crude 4-letter insults and accusing everyone and his brother of being an 'IRI Spy' is getting old and adds nothing to the dialogue.  It's been overdone.    However, if someone says "I'm an IRI spy" or says "I support the MEK" ... and if it's topical to the discussion, raise it.   But you can't just go around calling everyone an "IRI spy" who doesn't endorse your point of view; I've also mentioned before that this particular allegation ('IRI spy') is also being primarily used to chill the freedom of speech of Iranians who commonly have a residual fear that they will be investigated, rounded up and detained if enough people call them an "IRI spy."    If you're going to call someone an "IRI spy," you should be prepared to substantiate your reasons.   

Thank you

Dear Souri, Mehrdad and Oon Yaroo. I also make it very much clear I do not advocate any kind of censorship. Very much the opposite I want debate.

My grandmother used to say: Befarma; Beshin va Betamarg all mean the same thing. However they get very different reactions from people. I rather say befarma even if I disagree with you. I also want to invite all to participate in this blog. Just please be civil and nice :-) No one ever got hurt by being kind to other people.

Dear Oon Yaroo

I meant that MKO is ineffective as a military force against 200,000 IRI Basiji. However they are very much effective in raising blood pressure :-) You are right and the mention of their name sure brings out a lot of debate!