Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

MM

Don't say I did not get your point. Quit being angry and vengeful.

I was only responding to the bogus charges that you made against me, and thought in your head, then as you do now, that i do not Get it. you ASSumed that I was okay with all this and I told you that No , i was not.

COP Jan

I am actually very glad we are having these discussions. When we have respectful arguments we are sowing seeds for future democracy. We have debates and sometimes even find out we were in 90% agreement the whole time.

This is what I hope to see happen in a REAL Iranian parliament. Where we argue but do it respectfully. So please let us discuss; let us convince each other and to disagree. What better practice for democracy that this?

VPK

I am not challenging your thoughts or stance. I agree with most of what you say, but please do not allow your anger to get the better of your judgment. And about Japan, I never said they forgot - I just said they bettered themselves and moved on.

We're saying the same thing here, just expressing it differently.

Baa sepaas,

CoP

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IRAN FIRST

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I agree with MM & Mehrdad

We are not talking about the coup. That is not the point of my argument. Why are people missing it? I have never been one to rehash 1953. You guys are mistaking me for someone else. I am talking about right now:

• The US Navy and its attempt to rename the Persian Gulf. I am just reminding people of its criminal actions. They shot down an Iranian jetliner then lied about it. Then lied some more.
• The Persepolis Tablets. The kangaroo court that "awarded" the money based on some made up charges.
• The Persian Gulf. And the fact that neither USA nor Britain have any right to be there.
• Iranian people suffer while Swiss banks get fat on our money. Then hide behind their "banking secrecy" laws. I have another word: money laundering. Swiss bankers are as much thieves as any Mollah.
• Taking care of our people. IRI does not take care of them fine. But by kissing USA butt we are not helping.

For some reason some people think USA is "off limits". You are either for IRI or for USA. Is it not possible to condemn criminal act no matter WHO commits it? I very much respect COP and AO. But friends please do not put words in my mouth. I want today to be improved not yesterday. 

BTW, Japanese have not forgotten their history. The remembrance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki happens all the time. Big difference is that Japan was at fault. We were not. If we take the approach of "forget" then why don't we let all the murders go? Why bother punishing anyone. After all it is all past so forget it. Just move on. There is good reason to remember things. Having said that I never

Well said, MM jaan

I believe this is precisely the point VPK has been trying to make and has gone amiss by some.

Mehrdad

VPK

The question I have is up to what point do we sit idle and watch others plunder our heritage?  In another word, where is the line in the sand?  Unfortunately, DM did not get my point and argues about whether he said "New Arabia" or not. 

We have a rich history that was handed down to us, irregardless of what IRI has done with it, and our job in Diaspora is to hand it down, intact, to our children, whether it is the name of Persian Gulf, The Fortification Tablets at the University of Chicago ..... or whatever.  If so, then arguing with each other and calling names is not going to solve anything and we have to ACT by writing campaigns and voting.

PS, if it was not because of our writing campaigns, fundraisers and legal actions, the Persepolis Fortification Tablets would have been on ebay by now.

AO, precisely

I forget where it was, but in one of abarmards rants about the west  that it is the west that keeps the rest of the world from becoming the great powers they can be, I replied that Japan was bombed twice with thermonuclear weapons and went on to become an economic giant second only to the US.

If we keep blaming others for our shortcomings and take no action to better oursleves, we will get what we deserve. Like the guy said, "people rise to their potential". So far, this anti Iran anti-human regime appears to be our potential..

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COP Jaan

you're welcome.  The 1953 myth has become the gift that keeps on giving for everyone, the U.S. haters, the IR, the communists, the former Toudeiees turned IR operatives / agents, conspiracy theorists, and last but not th least, the U.S. itself to some extent.  It's about time for it be looked at and placed into context, and Milani does a great job at that.

But as I said before, let's say that everything about that event is exactly as has been fed to us for the past half century.  So what?  That was sixty years ago.  Everyone involved in that event is pretty much dead.  Move on already.  The U.S. NUKED Japan for God's sake, and they're not holding that kind of a grudge.   

COP

Yes the Shah tried to modernize to fast but it was possible keep the Mollahs at bay. His father would have done just that. Now things the pendulum has gone too far. There will be another reaction to the Mollahs. People will push them back with ferocity. 

There is no way to keep a nation in the dark ages for ever. When the reaction arrives it will be a tsunami. Hopefully wash the Mollahs to hell for good.

AO, thanks for the link to the article

What a fascinating fresh look at the age old "narrative".

Also a great refresher in history.  I guess the question I ask is even if Shah had engaged in and had been more serious in democratization, would the forces of darkness (the mullahs and Islam) have retreated from their quest for power and would they have not taken the country down the destructive path she is on now?

I think not! It would have happened anyway.

As I said in the other blog, the country tried to modernize too quickly and too liberally. That was the moment that the "traditional forces" siezed to take us back to the stone age - and they did....

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In many ways this is the

In many ways this is the same thing as referring to (occupied) Palestine as "Israel." 

You know, the USN is a military organization that will do things their own way. 

I don't know why so many folks here get upset about the name change. It's simply an element of anti-Iran policy. And most of you are anti-Iran anyway, so live with it. You folks are what you sow.  

My goal

Was to get people interested in doing something. We are not in charge of IRI so nothing we can do there. Many of us are American citizens so we can do something here. We can stop them from dishonoring Iranians. They can pick a fight with IRI and many of us support it. But they should not berate our culture or history. The Islamist Republic does that already. No need for USA to help them.

We do have a voting power. In California there are many of us. We could tilt an from one side to another. We should make it clear to Obama that A*** Gulf means losing Iranian American votes. We must have influence just like Cubans do. They are not pro Castro but still have power. Being political does not mean anti-American. It means we have the gonads to stand up for our heritage which is under attack.

Some of us here are confused about our goal. US Navy owes us and we should demand they stop any further dishonor. We have the greatest asset: votes. We must organize and us our voting power to make policy changes.

Why is this a "dream" or bad idea?  There is a limit to nay saying and giving up.

VPK

Useless

the entire world has paid a heavy price for the crimes committed by the US, the brits, The russians, The french, The italians...there is actually a long list of countries out there. The irauquis and afghanis are still busy paying !!

There is an absolute sense of outrage and disgust against such crimes, But the point is we can not create constructive and workable solution in order to have established normal relations with other countries, if we still carry a baggage and demand retribution and revenge based on what has been done in the past.

We are certainly not gonna get there, by making demands and holding USA and other western countries accountable to anything. Cuz they will keep giving us the mid finger salute. Then what are we gona do? keep on keeping the pressure??? Oh, i guess then there will be calls for taking up arms withing US and getting out on the streets and making these bastards pay for it right?

THINK.

The point is..

The point is that we have been stuck in 1953 for the past half century, and have screwed up our country beyond recognition based on a memorandum that Kermit Roosevelt wrote to impress his boss.  Even if everything that is said about U.S. involvement in 1953 is true, it is about time to move on.  Countries (aside from the Iran under IR rule) do and say things that serves their national interests at any given time. This does not mean that a whole nation's fate should continue to be based on what happened in some intelligence service six decades earlier.  

The U.S. is sitting on Iran's borders with an armada that can destroy the entire planet a 100 times over.  One U.S, nuclear submarine can turn Iran into a parking lot.  This is not the time to beat our chests and pick a fight with the big boy on the block based on Kermit Roosevelt's hallucinations of six decades ago.  It is rather time to cut our losses and move on.  THAT, and not flag burnings, hostage takings and name calling is the way forward. 

You may want to live in your version of history if it suits you

But it will not change the facts the slights bit and that is that Iranian people, not IRI but Iranian people, have paid a heavy price for the criminal and policies of USA vise e vie Iran. This is not about 1953, it is about a continues and sustain campaign against Iranians which still continues.

Now, at least you had not name yourself impartial observer.

Mehrdad

AO It is all about Needless and Idiotic obsession

Well put. There is an obsession on part of some people to drag issues through the mud so they can masalan prove something or exact revenge using the most abnoxious and out of this world reasoning.

 IN the process they end up F... things up even more and make some exaggerated and rediculous claims Just to Puff up their own image.

As if we iranians have a rather great image in America, all we need is to start yet another campaign of more Bi... and moaning about things that matters most TO US AND NOT OTHERS.

If only that would have gotten through their heads.

Sweet dreams

Going after a murderer for punishment is not the same as trying to punish the Navy of a supre power. Why don't you realize that. You are not dealing with ONE PERSON,. you are taking on an establishment that entails much more power than you do and won't be forced to bend over just because you are pissed off. I think they have proven that time and again. It is just rediculous to even think that. and Supposed you got your appology. What is next? Are you gonna tell them where to conduct their next operation or something? are you going to make them Your Bit.. because They owe you???

Since when Going after murderers has prevented Futire one from taking place?

I would love to see more participation on behalf of the iranian voting block in any given elections, especailly the preseidential one, but let's not kid ourselves that our refusal to vote would make a dent in the outcome of the election, simply because Demographically speaking we are not a force. That is a FAct.

MM

How can one run over anyone's Heritage?

Are we "running over" american Heritage everytime we object to one of their policies?

I never suggested anything specific with regards to tablets. Don't be puttting words in my mouth. Sure. By all means , That ought to be stopped and the tablets should be off the auction block.

 I was merely referring your post, Where You advocated writing to our congressional reps. and making our words count by voting, or writing to the secretary of Navy regarding that disaster over persian gulf. And I said what good would that do? how will that give us back the lives that we lost? Where is the satisfaction in there? Did you happen to read the response in The navy's facebook site?

Did i suggest Iran should be called NEw arabia? is there a document out there or in your possession hinting that the US gov is thinking about adopting such name-changing policy?

Did you hear me approving of Iraqui's calling of Khoramshahr something arabic??? Did you?

OK -Enough about the paranoia going back to 1953

U.S. interfered in Iran back in 1953?  Big fu**ing deal!! Do we have to drag that non-event on for another 500 years and scream about it?  The U.S. also nuked Japan and the Russinas and the U.S. reduced Germany to a pile of rubble a few years before 1953.  And those countries don't even hold the grudge that Iranians do against the U.S.  Yeah, let's f**ck our country up and beat our chests forever because the U.S. MAY have done something back in 1953.  Get over it everyone. 

BTW, this whole story about the 1953 coup is all U.S. propaganda anyway.  It's all based on the story of Kermit Roosevelt, who claimed that he single handedly engineered the whole thing!!!!!  Abbas Milani had a good piece on it last year:

 //www.tnr.com/article/world/the-great-satan-myth

It's a good read, and sheds light on this myth.   

MM Jaan

I agree with you as I often do because you have real ideas. We can sit here and argue or beat up on ourselves. Or we can do something. Maybe little things but lots of little things become big.

I keep hearing "it is too late" or "it is our fault" blah blah. Some people are doing this for good reason. Fesenjoon being a good example. He uses shock to give us a badly needed kick in the ass. I respect that and wish him well. Others are just saying "give it up". I will not give it up. It is not just our heritage it is more than that. It is our future.

For example the US Navy thing. Americans like to get on their high horse and leture us. Well I want to remind them of their own pirate Navy. Let them feel some shame. Why do people go after murderers. Does it bring back the dead: No. But it does prevent future murders. It does prevent other similar actions. The fact is that USA Navy owes us Iranians and it owes us BIG. One way it could make amends is to stop this abominations of "A.... Gulf". It won't bring back the dead but is a start.

Another action is to cost Obama is re-election. It will teach these jerks we are a force to be respected. If Obama loses California because of Iranian vote others take note. No one will ever forget to court our votes again. Believe me they will line up and kiss our collective asses. The same way they kiss up to Cubans. We have been conditioned to be afraid for too long; no more!

I agree with Loveofliberty. We do have power and should use it. One way to do so is by pressuring USA. To do what we think is in the best interest of Iran. No not bombing but respecting our national heritage. I think people from AO to Mehrdad would agree that USA should respect us and honor our heritage.

Specially now that the Iranian regime does not. It makes it 10 times more important that Iranian diaspora carry the torch. This until we regain control of Iran. 

Doctor Mohandes - what is your suggestion?

Give it up and let others run over our heritage? 

How about the Persepolis fortification tablets that are the subject of a lawsuit in the US to have them siezed and sold on the auction block?  Give them up too since no one really cares about 2500 old pieces of stone/clay?

How about Iran?  Should it be called "New Arabia" just like the Iraqis who called Khorram-Shahr something Arabic and probably still do?

MM

What good is that going to do?

IS that gonna bring back the lives that were lost? What is the point of Rehashing the past and acting begrudgingly?

COP,

COP: "We make out own destiny - When we hand over our nation on a silver platter to a bunch of assbackward, anti-nationalist 7th century ass wipes, one would have to think "they get what they deserve" - I am sure most of the western diplomats and powerful elite have that kind of attitude towards us. Can you blame them?"

Actually, one particular Western Statesman said essentially the same thing as you have just said...but many years ago and under a different set of circumstances.:

"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one." - Alexander Hamilton

In my opinion, the future of Iran is mostly in the hands of Iranians...if only they find the courage to develop a spine and the wisdom to learn from the mistakes they have made along the way.

I guess time will tell...

AO: Not trying to defend IRI here but

 Perhaps you fail to see and distinguish that those acts by IRI are really a respond and retaliation to the acts of hostility by USA. USA meddling in Iranian affairs, specially in a hostile way goes way before Iran every planned and executed any retaliatory response.

You can go back to 1953 if not later.

Mehrdad

Arguing amongst yourselves

Arguing amongst yourselves is not going to solve anything.  Instead, make your words actionable by writing to your congressperson, State Deptartment, The Navy Secretary and finally with your votes, especially in areas with lots of Iranian-Americans.

VPK behaving high-schoolish?

ohhhh...

You are making me cry. LOL!

In your paranoid mind, every damn person out there has an aaassxx to grind with you. Carter,. Hillary, Reagon, Karoubi, Mousavi...

AO Jan

Response for the hostages was to confiscate 9 billion dollars. They also encouraged Iraq to attack Iran. To me that was a pretty heavy duty response.

The others were also included in the same responses.

The response to the IR supplying insurgents has been the sanctions. 

Hey, I am all for USA cracking down on IR don't get me wrong. The problem is Obama is doing it wrong.

As you said: IR could care less if Persian Gulf is renamed. Heck they wanted to rename it to Islamic Gulf themselves! So Obama is not punishing IR. It is punishing the Iranian people. It is attacking Iranian identity instead of IR.

I apologize to you if I sound angry but I am. IR should be attacked but Iranian people should not. The assholes who screamed death to America are the previous generation. That was 30 years ago. The Iranians now are the ones screaming demands for freedom. USA by shitting on them is doing IRs job for it. I am not a bit surprised if it turns out Obama is in fact sympathetic to IR. 

I will tell you that I campaigned for Obama; I gave money to his run and I voted for him. Proof that we all make mistakes.

BTW: I am not responding to "Doctor Mohandes". He has an axe to grind and I am not interested.

I think you're too angry here, VPK

Yes, the IRI is an enemy of Iran, that's easy.

However, the other 2 nations you mention could careless about iran (outside their interests) much less be her "enemy". They use and abuse as they see fit for their purposes and interests. It's not opersonal as IR has made it with the US. Of course IRI hardly says anything about Britain where colonialism/imperialism was invented. The focking brits milked every nation in Asia and everwhere else they could for so very long before they were either ousted or left cause their interests dictated it.

Of course, when we talk about nations in this regard, we're talking about policy makers. The average Joe Sixpack  (2 pinter, I suppose in Britain) could not point out Iraq, Iran, or Mexico for that matter, on the map. All they know is that we are a bunch of A-rab camel jockies and .......NOT Chrisitan. For a wide majority, that's good enough (or bad enough, I should say). These folks do not care how and at what costs the gas they put in their pick up trucks come from - They could careless, actually.

Some of the references you make to pre-IRI era is because of the very points I made above. 

We make out own destiny - When we hand over our nation on a silver platter to a bunch of assbackward, anti-nationalist 7th century ass wipes, one would have to think "they get what they deserve" - I am sure most of the western diplomats and powerful elite have that kind of attitude towards us. Can you blame them? 

Again, this is not to say it is right or wrong - Just reality. 

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VPK

What you stated in your reply to AO is totally absurd.

Do you realize that you are making two rather exaggerated claims in one paragraph : 1- That The US is not fit to be a superpower

2- Obama is not fit for presidency

all based on a vague and empty claim that he may noty be making the distinction between IRI and iranian people, the way he should?

Had obama not made  such distinction he would not have sent iranians back to back norouz messages, This should speak volumes on the level of respect he has for this nation as when he condemned the killings and horrendous maiming and shooting the protestors post 2009 election. I suppose one can say that his rather soft stance on the IRI are a little whimpish, yet at the same time that what great powers in the world do.

I guess the whole nation we will wait impatiently to see Who will you deem worthy of pursuing the noble goals of running the affairs of the nation in 2012 and they will be sure to pick a candidate who amongst other things, will make damn sure to distinguish between the two, otherwise they will demand that the he be impeached by congress right away.

Get real.

VPK - Apples and oranges

the downing of the Iranian airliner was wrong, so was the way it was treated afterwards by the U.S., even though there was an investigation in the U.S. Congress.  But that incident was a mistake, which is vastly different than various carefully planned and intentional acts by the IR against the U.S., such as the bombing of the Marine barracks, the embassy hostages and the killing of Lt. Col. Higgins.  Now, by the same standard that you apply, let me pose this question to you:  should the U.S. be praised for its restraint and for not attacking Iran and sending it back to the stone age in the following four instances?

1.  In response to the embassy hostage taking?

2.  In response to the IR planned, funded and engineered attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut?

3.  In response to the murder of Lt. Col. Higgins?

4.  In response to the IR supplying of insurgent groups in Iraq with sophisticated IED's that target American forces?