PROTEST

Freedom in Iran

With Islam in Iran, no matter who is ruling; there will be no justice, no human dignity, no freedom and no civility.

Don't you people had enough of it?

Iran is blesses with richest natural resources, and yet its people are one of the poorest.

Agreed Ari. There is an

Agreed Ari. There is an overall goal or a desire for justice, freedom, liberty, equality, peace, pluralism of polity, and prosperity

The shape of the Green Movement

It is fun to follow the dialog along, as it parallels our uncertainties.

Dorothy: Did you hear something?

Scarecrow: Or you could go the other way.

Dorothy: That's impossible. There's no one here but a scarecrow. Scarecrows can't talk.

Scarecrow: Of course people do go both ways.  

Our construction project is looking more and more like a road. Albeit a green one, and made of Nazy's legos.

Iranians

Iranians have repeatedly shown their superiority in science, art and business all around the world, partcularly in the USA...... and their INFERIORITY in IRAN with ISLAM.

Denounce this brutal, sadistic religion of stupidity and ignorance.

Islam

Not a single day passing without horyfying, repulsive news of heinous crime against thier own people, particularly women and childeren in the Islamic world. Islamic countries are the very BASTIONS of BARBARISM and IGNORANCE.

ISLAM IS AN INSULT TO HUMAN DIGNITY.

Nazy jaan,

Thanks for this beautiful photo essay. I have been eagerly following the flag debate on this thread and am very pleased to see it has turned out to a very useful one between you and Ari.

I found a good alternative logo

//pullthecorkout.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/green-lion.jpg

As you can see, it has the green, the lion, and the sun, as well as other festive elements.

It also appears to come from California, which I think is a plus.

The problem is that "green" is the color of the bully

What is the significance of a single color? What is wrong with a multi-colored structure? Other colors may represent other bullies but in a multi-colored society their effect is tempered and balanced out. After all. is it not true that democracy encorporates all colors? Insisting on a single color, particularly a color so strongly synonymous with institutions that have brought Iranians much too grief through the ages, sounds more didactic than democratic.

FR

Nazy jan, nice analogy about the green logo pieces

Dear Nazy, I like your analogy between the movement in Iran and building a project with green logo pieces. I especially like where you write in your comment:"Now, when people who either don't understand or appreciate the importance of the single-colored structure come and try to jam their yellow, red, and blue pieces into it, we get disheartened, because we know that those colors don't belong in the intended project of the people in Iran."

Ari Jan

That was a very interesting analogy for the green movement. This evening I thought about what you wrote, and someow I think the scenario isn't exactly like building a model airplane. Afterall, the kit containing the pieces to a model airplane always comes with some kind of instructions, a plan, to follow, and the photo on the box shows the expected results clearly.

In what has been slowly building up and developing in Iran there are no plans. I think it's more like a collective effort to build something with green lego pieces. The guys in Iran have decided to build their project with green lego pieces and the as-yet-unknown shape of the lego toy they are building keeps getting augmented and added to with the pieces people are adding.

Occasionally, the bully in the room tries to trample the project, or to takes pieces of the project away, even swallowing some. We know there is something important in the process of construction and we have a general idea of its color and developing mass, but no shape has yet emerged. In the meantime, we have felt compelled to somehow contribute to this project, so we are each searching in our lego boxes, pulling out our green pieces, and handing them to the guys in the room to use in their project.

Now, when people who either don't understand or appreciate the importance of the single-colored structure come and try to jam their yellow, red, and blue pieces into it, we get disheartened, because we know that those colors don't belong in the intended project of the people in Iran. We also get frustrated when we see the bully in the room trying to break the fragile structure. Furthermore, we feel threatened when we see people with bumper stickers saying "Jesus Loves Me" chasing the unfinished product, trying to affix their ideal decorations on it.

Our worries at this stage of the game are endless, but I think most of us have figured out that this project's color is green.

Ari jan: Thank you so much.

Ari jan: Thank you so much. You couldn't have been more articulate and thoughtful with your explanation. Moving forward with caution. It's our best chance.

vildemose,

I thought the green

I thought the green movement was all inclusive and a big tent under which everyone could express herself/himself freely.

What does the green movement really stand for??Can someone explain? 

Rosie

Don't fret, pet.  I got it.  A little of that "you're not Iranian so  you don't understand us" bullcrap is showing through.  :-)  Don't mind them.  You don't have to be Iranian to see that you're just trying to interject a little fairness into the discussion.  But out comes the name calling... from zionist to monarchist.  What a waste of effort and worse, what an insult to Nazy.

Ari...

 Dear Ari,

I have limited knowledge that the organizers in San Francisco had the knowledge of rules and regulations of the ordinance but they wisely decided not to ask for enforcement for avoiding conflicts and staying democratic, not to mention it would need a huge amount of resource to deal with the conflict on thr ground.

Peace, 

Shaayad Keh

Thanks Nazy,

I would be curious about the results of discussions among organizers looking into city ordinances.

Regarding policing. The idea is to prevent zoomed out photorgraphs of large crowds from looking like the crowd has assembled under that flag.  Small Shir o Khorshids on T-shirts or lapel pins identifying like-minded people to each other is actually quite nice. In fact monarchists could identify themsleves by wearing the lapel pin, say, on the right side of their clothing, while MKO supporters could stick the pin anywhere else. 

Anahid,

I just told you if you want to discuss this you should do it at my account.  I'm not going to continue a public discussion about this with you when you write a post about someone IN THE THIRD PERSON 'explaining' them to someone else as being rude and irrational---when you weren't EVEN involved in their conversation--and you don't think that you yourself were being rude.  Which is irrational. Especially after you...well, enough said. Like I said, you can contact me at my account. Haven't read your last post, sorry. If you send it to me privately, I'll be happy to read it.

Pacino - This is tearing this team AAPAART!

DK jaan I saw that clip but wanted his famous line.  I guess they didn't want to give away that particular line for free.  

This is tearing this team AAPAART! ;-) LOL

Everything is sacred.

Rosie, your anger is misplaced

Rosie, what made you so upset is that I asked you to translate your comment to English or Persian.  That is because where you were writing about Hojati county, you were not making any sense.  "Shayyad keh" also commented that she did not get you.  Now you are blaming your tone of writing to "Shayyad keh" on me.  Last night, all I did was to reply to Nazy about her question regarding what to do with flag in demonstrations and I also thanked her for her beautiful pictures.  Now  for some reason, all of a sudden, you are defending monarchists and talk about their lovely posting. 

Rosie, your anger is misplaced and some of it is because you don't have a historical perspective about Iran.  You get as upset about a comment from me that you find insulting just as much as you get upset about recent killings in Iran.   I am not going to spend my valuable time getting too involved in comment thread with you but I thought that I explain to you that your comment that included phrases like Hojati county was nonsense dressed as comment. 

Anonymouse jaan I found the "Inch by Inch" speech

Here :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=myyWXKeBsNk

Its All about Team Work I guess ...

Pacino - This is tearing this team AAPAART!

DK jaan I looked but could not find a youtube clip for Al Pacino's famous line in Any Given Sunday. His famous line of this is tearing this team aapaart! is very applicable here. If you can find one please post it.

BTW it is now "illegal" to wear green in Iran and you're asking for "trouble" if you wear one.  So for all who have an issue with green or are thinking about wearing green and are "worried" about it one way or another, think of the consequences in Iran and where you are and then decide which side you're on.

Everything is sacred.

Dear Shaayad

First of all I have to admit that I read up the first half of the thread and did not get to the part where there seemed to be a reconciliation or I wouldn't've used the tone I did. So sorry about that. The reason I didn't get to the rest of the thread is because I saw Anahid Hojati's post and it made me very angry.

So here's why your first post made me angry too, although less. It's one thing to say you think the lion and sun flag is harmful but to imply that someone would be happy about doing that harm is to say the least not nice, especially in response to such a loving post. Maybe you just wanted to convey you were upset, but that's not how it came across.

Anyway, obviously you didn't mean to attack anyone so I'm sorry I lit into you, especially so late in the day.  As for your saying you are no one, I can assure you you will fit right in...lol

Well, then...since I've apologized to Shaayad, I guess I should mention the post that pushed me over...so...Anahid...if you want to discuss this, you can contact me at my account. But you should be aware that I read your post a couple of weeks ago where you mentioned the other name you'd been going by.

welcome to timarestan.com, shaayad keh...

Rosie

facts..............

 I have said all I thought I could say, so I will limit my statement to some facts and observations:

But before that, remember that I am a nobody(shaayad keh says it all), so if you dig deep i am sure you may find holes in my facts. I am just trying to present what comes to my mind, and by no means I am a speaker of the green movement.

Facts/Observations:      

-Arguments, foul language and physical contact has been reported in many occasions within the green protests,out side Iran. The ugliest one I witnessed was reported by CCN in Southern CA.

-Reports of lack of interest for participation in future gathering is growing within the green movement. Can not document it other than referring you to your local organizers who respectfully request attendees NOT to bring flags of any sort. (one of the reasons for low turn outs to 25th July protests could be attributed to presence of this flag <This is my assumption>)

-The shiro khorshid flag has become the trademark of 2 "organizations"; Monarchists and MEK.

-The presence of this flag will reduce the extend of these protests to be associated with either of these "organizations" as oppose to the vast participation of ordinary people.

-MEK and Monarchists that never enjoyed protests in such magnitude easily can hijack these protests, specially when they are not involved organizing it systematically

-There has not been any reports of any "organized" activity from either of these groups in Iran in the past ten years.  

-Both organizations boycotted the presidential election.

 -The green movement, as it sounds, is a movement within the framework of IRI to recount the votes, or replace the president within the Iran constitution, and recently added referendum. these principals do not identify with either of the 2 organizations.

-Green movement is big when it comes to street in big numbers. Staying on the news, everyday is all the support we can give to Iranians in Iran. This support, if presented with MEK or Monarchists trademarks, not only is useless to the Iranian movement but it hurts it. 

-I am in it just for the smallest possible change in Iran. I hope bigger changes (getting rid of Khamenei, IRI, Islam for that matter) were within reach but I do not see that in near future.

-Members/supporters of either organization should join as they already are, maybe new leaders are born in the process. just do not bring your flag.

 I wrote what I wrote because I see a new light on the future of Iran under this green movement. I am sure everybody will understand that this is not a small dream neither a small task, so we got to do it once and we got to do it right. As always my ears and my eyes are open to learn new ways.

Peace

Shaayad Keh

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Dear Rosie,

You have addressed me in your comments about what you see. I did not get it. I do not know if a response is required of me, but I can tell you  that you do not see clearly. And I am seriously not teasing you, there is a slight tone of siding with your favorite Monarchist in it. Do not believe me, read your comment one more time. Not that siding with one is bad, but usually when people side with an issue, mentioning why is essential.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Dariush,

No hard feeling at my end either. I know my lack of identity is a load on your shoulder but I wanted to be seen for my idea and not my breasts if you catch my drift.

All I have said have been serious and dear to me and I hope by now you know me better than when we first met couple of nights ago.

Peace,

Shaayad Keh

Thanks again for the photos,

Nazy. And thanks for your lovely thoughts in your original post, Darius.

I am not bitarbiat, just tired of nonsense

Rosie, your sarcasm only makes yourself happy; khod gozee va khod khandi,  and believe me, I can outdo you in sarcasm in two live languages. 

A simple green flag

A simple green flag sounds like the only way to do this without the need for people to get angry with each other. At the recent rally however, someone almost attacked me for wearing green! I couldn't understand what she was doing at the rally if she was so angry with the color representing the movement.

Tarjomeh beh Farsi

Toh kheili bitarbiati.

Dear Rosie, translate your comment into English or Persian

Rosie jan, I guess I am not as smart as you are.  Please translate your comment into either Persian or English.  Thanks

Vive le Roi!/ shaayed keh chi? /Miss Hojati

Okay, good. Now that I have your attention.

I see at the beginning of this thread a lovely post by a Monarchist who says that the Monarchists and the Greens can live in harmony. I see a post with smileys and links to songs signed Love.

I see a reply by someone telling him in a dry, caustic tone that the Monarchists' participation with their flags is unwelcome. and harmful, and ends with the snyde comment that (s)he hopes this makes Darius happy. This is a contemptuous, hateful statement.

I see Darius getting upset and his insulter complaining that he insults. Then I see another county heard from. A county named Hojati.

That is what I see.  

People in glass houses...should use the glass as a mirror.

PS Yes, I'm a Monarchist. I'm a Communist MKO Monarchist Green.

____________________

Thanks for the photos, Nazy.  You're becoming a better and better photographer every day.

Ari Jan

Thank you for that practical piece of research. Though it is clear from the ordinance that there could be a fine for violations, it's not clear who will make the determination and enforce the ordinance at gatherings. I think there would still be need for a "flag police" to spot the offenders and to issue the fine tickets.

I have sent the link to this discussion to my friend who helps organize events these days and who gives me an earful about the flag business everytime I see him!

I was watching a video clip of an interview with Dariush Homayoun who was defending the presence of the Shir o Khorshid flags at Iranian gatherings, "because it is a flag one thousand years old and not merely representative of Iran's recent history." Obviously the debate is quite alive in many different circles.

You know, having a long history is not always a very practical thing! The longer a nation has been around, the more reasons it has to be apprehensive about symbols of its historic identity. I mean, a really practical thing would be for Iranian artists worldwide (and most definitely inside Iran), to be asked to submit gorgeous and thoughtful artistic ideas for a brand new flag, based solely on "solidarity/unity of Iranian people." This new flag's history will begin ticking now, and hopefully we will all be more cognizant to make sure that we don't sully this one with bitter and sad historic episodes which would render it useless in a few decades! I was thinking that maybe a simple green flag would do it for now, adding more things to it as things develop, but I gather by Darius Kadivar's offering the "source" of the color green that he takes issue with how it came to be the color of the movement. At least this new evidence does not support the earlier opinions that this is the green of "seyyeds," grounds for even more contention!

Sigh!