“The only way to leave the circle, to stop dancing with the jailer, is to find a way to preserve one’s individuality, that unique quality which evades description but differentiates one human being from the other… There was not much difference between our jailers and Cincinnatus’s executioners. They invaded all private spaces and tried to shape every gesture, to force us to become one of them, and that in itself was another form of execution.” – Vladimir Nabakov
Azar Nafisi was a professor of English literature at Tehran and Allameh Tabatabai Universities. Like many who returned to Iran after the Revolution, she was hopeful to see positive changes, but during the first purges at the universities, leading to Iran’s Cultural Revolution, she was ousted from her position. After arriving in the US, she wrote the first memoir in exile, “Reading Lolita in Tehran,” which became a New York Times bestseller and was eventually translated into thirty two languages. Her book received high praise but has also met with criticism. Last year she published a second book about her childhood called, “Things I’ve Been Silent About.” She is currently working on her third book titled “Republic of the Imagination” which first appeared as an in the Washington Post, while holding a position as Director of Cultural Conversations at Johns Hopkins University in Washington, D.C.
I had a chance to talk to Azar candidly. Here it is:
Let me begin by asking you on a recent development. The UN Women’s Rights Commission has admitted the Islamic Republic of Iran, what do you think of this?
It seems rather ironic that a regime with some of the most repressive laws against women should be admitted to a UN body that claims to defend the rights of women. How will the Islamic Republic vote when it comes to voting for the abolition of the very laws it upholds? If Iranian women are among the most active, dynamic and informed not just in the region but in the world, that is not thanks to this regime, but to their own resilience and over a century of Iranian women’s struggles for their rights. Perhaps rather than accepting Iranian government, the Commission should have chosen representatives from among women activists inside Iran to both represent their country and help defend rights of women all over the world.
You taught at Tehran University and Allameh Tabatabai; you wrote in the book Reading Lolita in Tehran of your experience, do you believe women have gained more equality since that time?
I have mentioned at the end of my book as well in articles, that Iranian women have been constantly fighting for their rights and they have been successful in many areas. It has been the Islamic regime that has retreated and not the women who no matter what their religious beliefs or backgrounds have fought in all areas to retake their rights. But as in this case I would insist to give credit where it belongs: not the government but the people. Women’s rights have never been what a Shah had bestowed upon the women so that an Ayatollah can take it away from them.
There has been criticism to you on the book, that in fact you were once a leftist activist and you denounced your past, is this justified?
First of all to criticize one’s past is not a flaw, I never trust anyone about what they say about their present or the future without knowing how just they are in relation to their own past. We are used to criticizing and blaming everyone but ourselves. A critical exchange with one’s own past is a sign of confidence and the first step towards accepting responsibility, and freedom always comes with responsibility. Having said this, I criticized that aspect of my past that was too ideological, when we did not tolerate views other than our own. Left or right, ideology is dangerous. I did not change my views about human rights, women’s rights or democracy, what I did change was an absolutist attitude. It happened to come to us in the form of a leftist ideology, but I see little difference between leftist and rightist ideologies. We need to think independently, to speak and have exchanges with all from different view points, but to make our decisions not based on group ideology, but on our own conscience. In attitude I have changed, in positions I have not. I have to add that I realized the flaws in our ideologies in the student movement when I returned to Iran and saw how dangerous it was to want freedom but to choose a repressive attitude to attain it. I did not think that the Islamic regime or the Shah were the only forces responsible for what happened to us. I wanted to know what right did the rest of the society play in bringing about this revolution. I still think that different groups with different views should have an honest assessment of their past mistakes, not other people’s mistakes but their own. This is not about blaming ourselves or others, but in order to understand where we were in order to know where we are going.
Were you ever in favor of the Iraq war?
I was against the war in Iraq even before it started, while there were debates about it. I felt then as I feel now that although Saddam’s regime was one of the worst dictatorships in the world, and although he had been ruthless in regards to the Iraqi people and I could never forgive or forget his terrible crimes not just against the Iraqi but also against the Iranian and the Kurdish people during that terrible war, invasion of Iraq would be disastrous for Iraqi people, for people in the region, especially for the democratic movement in Iran as well as for America. I think what I felt then has proved to be right and I still see no reason to change that position.
What do you think of the social, civil and women’s movement in Iran?
I believe that women’s movement in Iran is the continuation of the movement that began in 19th century. Iranian women have a history of struggle for their rights, and the young women today are learning not just from other countries but from their own history in fighting the repressive laws in Iran. I admire the activists in Iran and have always supported them through my writings and activities, because I believe women’s movement in Iran is not only central to the fundamental changes within Iran but will also affect women in the region and other parts of the world.
What do you think the youth, both in this country and in Iran can learn from their teachers or mentors? What should their goals and aspirations be during these times of global crisis and uncertainties?
I sometimes think that youth in both countries are far ahead of their mentors! Some of my best memories of Iran are of when I taught, and when I had exchanges with the students and other young people. Over there, because our young people were on one hand so eager to be connected to the world and on the other hand were deprived of this contact there was such excitement and such desire for knowledge. I never forget how a talk I gave on modern novel in Tehran’s book fair caused an almost riot. I always tell my American students that young people in Iran are offering the young people in America a great gift by reminding them of how precious freedom to read and to write, and access to knowledge is and that men and women have paid high prices for these freedoms, and that today it is the young people in a country named Iran, thousands of miles away from America that are reminding us of the importance of Hannah Arendt, Saul Bellow, Martin Luther King, Fredrick Douglas, Karl Popper. it is the Iranian youth that is prepared to go to jail, to be flogged, to suffer humiliation in order to be free to listen to and to make music, to create art, to read and write freely and to connect to the world. I think both young people in America and in Iran should resist the temptations of the times, the shallowness, the celebrity culture, the greed, the lack of respect for genuine knowledge and to learn to fight for freedom of thought and independence of mind as much as they fight for political freedoms. In America our crisis is not just economic but also a crisis of vision and of imagination. And in Iran this regime is putting people on trial and torturing and jailing them for reading Max Webber, for taking words such as democracy and freedom seriously. Without imagination and thought there can be no free society. We should learn to be curious, to want to know and to have empathy, to want to connect. Nabokov used to say “Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form.” So, I hope the youth in Iran and in America will be curious, curious, curious and look at the world through the alternative eye of imagination.
In your second book, you talk about memories of your childhood, of your mother and father; what was the most important event that changed your life and your outlook towards life?
It is difficult for me to pinpoint one single event. Perhaps the death of my parents made me realize how fickle life was and how transient, and why it is important for us to live the moment to the full, and to live with passion, for passion and to resist death through memory which for me is through writing.
Who was the most important person in your life and who has taught you most?
This is a very difficult question and I really cannot answer it. I loved my father who taught me how I can live in the world and resist the world through literature, but then?
