INNOCENT

Can't Sasha be a little concerned about Mazdak? -Shahab

Sasha voiced extreme sorrow for Mazdak in her blog, as well as for his parents.

It is inappropriate to use the word "concerned" for a dead person.  "Concern" means "worry".  She can be concerned about Mazdak's DEATH, and she has expressed her concern.  But she can't be CONCERNED ABOUT MAZDAK.

Last person I heard who was widely reported to be raised from the dead was Jesus Christ. Hanging Ali won't accomplish Mazdak's resurrection.

PS Conned

You claim to be against capital punishment but you are engaging here in an incessant, hair-splitting linguistic analysis worthy of a doctoral thesis while some young person (can we agree he is young?) is about to be executed. You are doing it under what might be his last words...

I must say I find this not only mean-spirited but frankly somewhat schizoid (no offense but...) if you are truly against capital punishment as you claim.

To conned

Okay, let me try again.

You are perhaps right that it would be better to refer to this issue as the execution of minors rather than children.  However, the language that is used goes back to a UN declaration on Children's Rights. They define children as under eighteen.  It is the language of international law which is conflating minors and children, not SCE, and it is not all that bad a conflation. For example, neuroscientists have discovered that certain brain chemicals in normal adolescents are similar to those of psychotics, due to all the extreme hormonal changes.  Adolescents aren't responsible people.  It's the reason they aren't allowed to drink in the US for example.  And most car accidents are caused by adolescents and the elderly, adolescents because of their recklessness, the poor judgement they routinely display. So calling them children reminds us that they are very, very different from adults.  Every parent who once had a sweet loving kid who overnight became an unreasonable,  beligerent, unreachable island knows what I'm talking about.  I know it from my experience teaching.

The treaty Iran signed was against execution of people who were children (minors) when they COMMITTED or were charged with the crime, not at the time of the execution.    A group like Stop Child Executions cannot call itself Committee to Stop Executions of People who are Charged With Crimes Committed When They Were Children (or Minors, or Under 18). It's too cumbersome.  They are adopting the UN language and using it to make a name that is viable.

I didn't have the same problem you had with the confusion about Ali's age. All I know about him is what I've read here and I've always been very clear that he was 16 at the time and is 21 now.  There have been many articles on the website about this.  Maybe it just depends on which ones you've read. Maybe the posters are assuming previous knowledge when they post certain things.  This is always a false assumption. 

In answer to your question, I would call the execution of a 16 year old the execution of a teenager or a kid, informally, the execution of an adolescent formally, and the execution of a child when referring specifically to the United Nations conventions involved.

I didn't ramble on about you being conned. You call yourself "conned" and suggest that the SCE people and others like them are conning you.  I said that if anyone is conning, it is the IRI by routinely incarcerating these minors but not executing them until they are old enough to not outrage world opinion so much.  You are a classic example of what I mean.  You are even against capital punishment but here you were suggesting that unscrupulous people (like SCE?) are conning you in order to damage the IRI's reputation.  Instead of being with your natural allies (SCE) you are  questioning their integrity publicly.

Meanwhile IRI is licking its chops.  They are delighted with your comments on this blog. It is EXACTLY what they want and plan when they wait five years until Ali is 21 so EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST CAPITAL PUNISHMENT WON'T CONSIDER IT A PRIORITY TO DEFEND HIM.

This waiting game is an IRI TACTIC and it is SLEAZY. I can't stress it enough. You are being conned

Finally, Ali was a teenager when the incident happened.  He is now 21 but he can't possibly have had a normal development these five years never knowig if he was going to live or die.  So psychologically he is still a teenager on the one hand and on the other hand he is like an old man, facing death.  But he can't possibly be construed as just a "young man" which is how one would normally refer to a 21-year old. .

to conned: About your "misleading" language

If Ali's guilt (or Mazdak side of the story) hadn't been discussed for the last 5 years, he hadn't been in the news today.

If Ali was from a rich family, he wouldn't have been where he is now.

Now if you "smell" propaganda and this smell of propagada pisses you off more than the capital punishment, (It means that you give more importance to your emotions (smelling propaganda) compared to the life and death of another human being.), then I have nothing else to tell you, because you have already dismissed yourself!  

Azarin

to Anonymous123

"Err.. The person who may be executed tomorrow is not a kid but an adult. "

Err... Err..The person who may be executed tomorrow is not a kid but an adult who got convicted of a crime when he was a kid. :)

aka Conned

How about the website: www.stopchildexecutions.com for those who get killed before the age of 18 such as: Atefeh Sahalleh (executed at the age 16), Saeed Kamberzai (executed this year at the age 17),  Mona Mahmpudnejad (executed at age 16), .....shall I continue.???..its a long list !!!

and another website called: www.stopchildexecutionaftertheyripe.com for the ones that IR keeps caged until they RIPE (reach 18) and then executes??

The statements by SCE, amnesty international and alike does NOT hide their age and addresses their current age too and actually also openly condemns this process of allowing kids to ripe to be killed ...so PLEASE do not distract and mislead !!

We know who you are and who sent you!!, e.g. Somehow your name ALWAYS matches the subject  that you address such as conned....justice...etc etc... at least change your style so it wont be this obvious !!! coincidence? I DON'T think so. This has been an orchestrated effort to distract from the subject. Just a close look at the your comments in all the related subjects by any slightly intelligent person shows the trend!

Children ....or wait till they RIPE and become adult at 18 is IRRELEVANT by all human rights standards.

There are at least 170 of them facing execution in Iran. NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS ANY RECORD CLOSE TO THIS. NONE! Maximum known is Saudi Arabia and Yemen which are ONLY 2 minors!! and the rest of the world (yes the world) complies now.!

Human rights organizations such as SCE or amnesty never claimed that any of these kids (yes kids at time of accusation) are innocent.

If the title of this article was chosen as innocent by the editor of iranian.com or someone feels that way, that is their view, but the issue of innocence or not is simply a distraction from the real issue.

No where in the UN conventions (THAT IRAN HAS SIGNED TOO) have mentioned innocence as a condition. The only condition is IF THE PERSON WAS BELOW 18 at the time of the alleged crime (guilty or not), S/HE should not be executed.Waiting till they reach 18 is also irrelevant and Iran is in violation of international laws. <--- PERIOD. 

addition to my previous post

(A) is execution of an adult for a juvenile offense. Hardly "child execution."
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While you are at it brighty, explain why the header of this article is "INNOCENT"
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No one is disputing that he killed someone. The sentence is under debate. So why is "INNOCENT" used?

Shahab.........did you get the information...........

 Did you write to the Iranian Embassies and obtain the documentation and write a blog or essay with your findings?  You know, you could have done it.

If you must know Azarin and I have had our difference of opinion on several issues in the past on this very website. However, we have put our differences aside and have decided to focus on some of our similarities instead. Ali, SCE campaign and Amnesty International are some of those similar interests. 

By the way I am out spoken about many things.

solh

You are more daft than I thought

"Either you are for or against the death penalty. You can't have it both ways."
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Where did I say I am for death penalty? This is what I mean by you being daft.
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Here is scenario for you. Keep in mind the critical age is 18.
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A) Someone kills a person at the age of 16 and gets executed at the age of 21 (as is the case here). This is called child execution.
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B) Someone kills a person at the age of 16 and gets executed at the age of 16. What do you call this? Child execution again?
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How do you distinguish A from B? Are those the same? If the guy in A was executed at the age of 55, do you still call it "child execution". Enlighten me please.
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In my books, B is child execution while A is not.

To Sasha

Can't you be alittle concerned about Mazdak instead of being so much concerned with Ali?

Mazdak lost his life. We don't really have enough information regarding Ali's case. Don't let Azarin's preachings fool you. She is a friend of the victim and therefore, she is not a good representative of the whole truth. Now Sasha, since you are VERY outspoken and confronting with people regarding Ali's case, I have a question for you. Have you tried to obtain the full documentation of Ali's case from one of the Iranian embassies? instead of relying solely on Ali's blog or Azarin's words? Azarin Sadegh seems like barking at anyone who raises any question regarding Ali's case. Seems you are following her step. The funny thing is when you two were complimenting each other in another post regarding this subject. LOL

You just seem not to get it anyways. Whatever...

Conned.....make up your mind.....what do you believe in

 Either you are for or against the death penalty. You can't have it both ways.

You advised Rosie T. to calm herself. Now, I think it is your turn to calm yourself too.  Do you really think it is necessary to say the following "Too many daft people on this board, you included." Do you see me name calling on this thread? No, I don't think so.  The fact of the matter is that Iran is a signator to the United Nations Convention On The Rights of the Child. However, the one that does not want to get it is you. Now, I have tried to explain my point to you but if you are going to be insulting people then I leave you with article 37. Happy reading.........

                                                             Article 37

States Parties shall ensure that:

(a) No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment

or punishment. Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release

shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age;

(b) No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily. The arrest,

detention or imprisonment of a child shall be in conformity with the law and shall be used only

as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time;

(c) Every child deprived of liberty shall be treated with humanity and respect for the

inherent dignity of the human person, and in a manner which takes into account the needs of

persons of his or her age. In particular, every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from

adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so and shall have the right to

maintain contact with his or her family through correspondence and visits, save in exceptional

circumstances;

(d) Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to

legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the

deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial

authority, and to a prompt decision on any such action.

 solh

To Sasha

Too many daft people on this board, you included. Whether I am for or against capital punishment is inconsequential.
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The language being used is what I have a problem with. "Child execution" is being used when in fact no one under the age of 18 is being executed. Why is this so difficult to understand?
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When such misleading language gets used by a supposedly activist website or the word "INNOCENT" in big bold letters gets plastered on top of this page when the guy's guilt is not even disputed by anyone, then I smell propaganda.
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When a national newspaper in Canada runs a report about an execution in Iran of somebody who committed a crime at the age of 16 without even mentioning the person's age at the time of execution, leading the reader to believe a 16 year old was executed when in fact a 22 year old was executed, then I smell propaganda.
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And you know what? Propaganda pisses me off more than capital punishment.

Conned.........I'm confused...........

 Conned: Words have clear meaning and need to be used

             appropriately.

Sasha:  Okay, it is a reasonable statement.

Conned:  I am against capital punishment all together.

Sasha: If you are against capital punishment all together

           then why does the age thing matter so much to you?

            I mean that is the total focus of your debate.  If you

           are totally against capital punishment then the age

            of the person being executed should then be  irrelevant to

             you.

solh

To rosie T

"Excuse me, the kid may be executed tomorrow"
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Err.. The person who may be executed tomorrow is not a kid but an adult.

Rosie

Rosie dear, calm down. Put your emotions aside for a second and think clearly. Words have clear meaning and need to be used appropriately. I am against capital punishment all together. However, I know what a "child" means. Here, it means someone who is a minor less than 18 years of age. Therefore a "child execution" means executing someone who is less than 18 years of age. Is this what is happening? No!
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An adult who committed a crime when he was a child is being executed. This is not "child execution." This is executing an adult for crimes they committed when they were a minor or a "child." Surely you are not so thick as to not to be able to make this distinction.
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Why is the age of this man not even mentioned in the article? I have seen similar articles in national newspapers who do the same thing. They mention when the crime was committed but make no mention of the age of the person at the time of execution, leading the person to believe that he is being executed at the age mentioned in the article. This is a very sick thing to do and I consider it to be an insult to my intelligence.
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Let me ask you a question: If you believe this is child execution, then what do you call the execution of a 16 year old?
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I made no political statement in my previous post and made it clear that execution is a sick thing. However, you rambled on about me being conned by IR. I am very supportive of whoever tries to put an end to capital punishment but I am also of the belief that it should be done right. By trying to mislead a reader, you are essentially insulting their intelligence and your cause suffers as a result.

It's so strange that some

It's so strange that some people want to sacrifice the rights of victims like the victim who was killed by Ali. By ignoring the rights of victims, we ignore the rights of living people who can fall victims to teenager's blind hatred in the future. There has to be some accountability. I say regardsless of the age, If one is able to kill, one must be accountable. Now, capital punishment is a diferent story, but there has to be a deterrent force for teenage rage whether it is in IRI, States or anywhere in the world!!!!!!!!!!!!! Justice has to prevail.

Payment in Kind is Required

I read the story as told by the killer (Mahin-Torabi) himself in the links provided. My interpretation of events is different. My conclusion is that the killer (Mahin-Torabi) and his friend tried to beat Mazdak up at the school, but they could not. So, they planned a pre-meditated murder, they acquired the weapon (the knife), waited for the victim outside the school, jumped on him, and killed him in cold blood. They even let the victim bleed to death outside of the school. This is first degree murder. The fact the killer’s father did not come to see him for 20 days only indicate that the killer did not have a good relationship with his father perhaps because he was constantly getting into trouble. That means that this case was not an isolated, out of the blue incident.

I do not know how this killer managed to send a letter to the west to be publicized in this website and elsewhere. It is possible that the killer may have a relative in the west. Alternatively, some anti Iranian groups are trying to make Iran looks bad.

I agree that life is scared. Life is also very precious. We can state with certainty that 99.9% of people willing give up what they have to save their life. So, we can also agree that Mazdak’s life was also sacred and precious to him and to his family. But this killer took it away. Worse yet, the killer is now trying to buy sympathy with this letter that is full of manipulative statements. However, we should not be fooled. This crime must be paid in kind.

To Conned Anonymous 55

Excuse me, the kid may be executed tomorrow.  What are you talking aobut, the humanitarian efforts "should" be focused on this or that?  A high official who has to sign off on the execution has been waivering all week, and the attention is being focused exactly where it should be focused.

As for nomenclature, well "Child and adolescent execution" is a bit of a mouthful...

Aren't you kind of nitpicking?  Have you read Ali's letters?  Doesn't the disconnect between his tone and yours strike you as a little odd?

Robin

At the time Ali was 16 - by

At the time Ali was 16 - by law a 'child' under 18 years of age- even if they had kept him inprison for 50 years he would have still been a child when the alleged act was committed!

Ali's "eyes" in this picture

Ali's "eyes" in this picture are with me everywhere these days.
In my mind's eye I see him
in my coffee cup, on the ceiling before
i turn the bed-side light off at night ,
on the road although I'm driving.

I see his eyes in the mirror when
I look at myself, and then I see a lot of other people, young girls and boys in those
prison cells, scared and lonely, some with little or no hope....
I just pray and hope and wish that
these young people will get "fair trials" and not be executed.
I hope the parents of the victims are at this time, before the law changes, somehow with some help from above, able to look beyond revenge.
Their pain is immesurable, they must have cried rivers , but taking another young life will not remedy their deep pain and sorrow.
Yet.... it is easy for me to say all this ; I haven't walked one step in any of these people's shoes...
But these days Ali's "eyes" are with me everywhere...
to me his eyes are representative of many young eyes -and some older ones too.
I hope to see his eyes smiling ... soon, very soon.

CONNED

Your are right!
It is being mis used. Even if some convention is using this term, in the US (at least), they are referred to as minors. A 16 year old is not a child and understands the difference between right and wrong. That's why, in some cases, minors are tried as adults! In this case, I believe, Iran's sad and injust procedures are being demonized even more than they should be in order to destroy the credibility of the IRI. Now, this regime is a criminal regime, no doubt about it. But to bring certain subjects into the public arena at specific times, seems ridiculously propogandaistic. In this specific case for example, I haven't heard anything from the victim's side (I admit I don't read all the info posted here). The "evidence" is all pointing to this kid being innocent. But this "evidence" is rubbish if it isn't in the context of the court and subject to cross examination. I do realize that the defence may have been crappy and the justice system in Iran is a joke. But in my opinion, humanitarian effort should be focused on providing "children" with better lawyers and public information during the trial.

No confusion

The UN convention to which Iran is signatory bans execution of people charged with crimes COMMITTED before the age of 18, now more and more universally recognized as the age of majority.

What is being DELIBERATELY done is the IRI incarcerates these teenagers (known as "children" in the language of these conventions) and keeps them rotting away in prison until they are old enough to escape the radar of world opinion which, they hope, will be less outraged if they are executed at say 21 instead of 16 or 17.

It is VERY sleazy and if anyone is conning you it's the IRI.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions that you are being "conned" by decent people giving up their time and energy to stop teenagers from being killed. Simple humanitarian efforts on the part of ordinary people with a conscience. They mean no one any harm and they're not devious at all. It is good to question but...

Paranoia will destroy ya.

Best regards,
Robin Goldsmith

confusing

I find the use of the phrase "child execution" rather misleading in this context. The person being executed is not a child. He committed a crime when he was a child but he is being executed when he is an adult. There is a big difference.
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I wonder if this phrase is being deliberately mis-used to arouse emotions. If so, it is as sick as the act of execution itself

Mehdi

US has the highest crime rate among civilized nations but the reasons behind it is beyond the scope of this subject. But in general family, government, media and economy play an important role everywhere....But child execution is NOT the solution...

As for how to deal with those children who allegedly have committed a crime, I addressed it in summary in the 2nd part of my response.

David ET

I think I can agree basically with what you recommend as the alternative. Of course, those are more like long term solutions. I guess I was looking at the current scene in the US and somewhat similar situations sometimes come up. And it does create discussions. The current US system, I think is doing most of what you recommend but these things are still happening here and there. We definitely have the school shootings that are almost unique to the US. The juvenile delinquency issue in the US, as far as I know, is rising, despite all these actions. I don't see these measures adding up to a real solution. Something seems to be missing.

Thanks!

Azarin, thank you for your tireless effort for bringing this issue to the public attention. Hope your devotion and those of others will pay off, and Ali's life will be spared.
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Your translation of Ali's letter is beautiful!

To Mehdi

First and Foremost whatever you do and whatever they have done:  Do NOT execute them!

and here are some answers:

1- Educate Them
2- Do not create a precedence for making killing justified such as PUBLIC EXECUTIONS !
3- Educate Them
4- Do not take away their means of healthy entertainment like IR does
5- Educate them
6-  Do not take away their freedom of expression like IR does
7- Educate them
8- Provide hope and promote good behavior than create atmosphere of terror, anger, hate, sadness as IR does
9- Educate them
10- Do not violate and justify children and human right violations like IR does
11- Educate them

12- Provide an atomosphere of peace and economic prosperity than war , terrorism and isolation like IR does

13- Educate them

IF A CHILD IS ALLEGED OF COMMITTING A CRIME

1- Do not presume guilty until proven innocent as IR does
2- Establish all facts
3- Respect due process
4- Provide access to attorneys specialized in children
5- Have medical professionals familiar with children check their mental problems, capacity and maturity
6- Have JUVENILE Courts with judges and counselors familiar with children handle the cases
7- Sentence them as needed
8- Do NOT execute them or give them life in prison in compliance with children rights conventions
9- Provide an atmosphere to educate and rehabilitate them
10- Observe and with proper proof of good behavior give them chances to prove themselves and to hopefully become good citizens

but whatever you do and whatever they have done:

DO NOT kill them!

The FIRST issue is not EVEN about guilt or innocence...

it is about Iran being a signatory on a UN treaty that says people cannot be executed for crimes committed (or allegedly committed) under the age of 18. Once a nation is a signatory to such a treaty it is a law of that nation. Any person defending IRI's right to execute Ali is defending IRI's right to break their own laws. Their own laws are harsh enough as it is so by defending this execution you are really opening up the floodgates to disaster. The other issues are also important of course, whether Ali is guilty or innocent, whether he is guilty or innocent of murder or manslaughter, whether there should be capital punishment at all. I have opinions about the first two and deep convictions about the last, but they are not the primary issue of debate here for the moment. The issue is that IRI is a signatory to this convention and THEY CANNOT EXECUTE ANYONE ACCUSED OF A CRIME AT AGE OF MINORITY. EVERY NATION must follow its LAWS. Why did the guards rape and torture and mutilate, then murder, Zahra Kazemi? Because they had a pretty good idea they could get away with it, BECAUSE IRI DOES NOT FOLLOW ITS OWN LAWS. Abu Ghraib, same. With prisoners at Guantano held forever in flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention, the tormentors just figured they could get away with it. And were proud enough to video-tape it! The issue is about following NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL LAWS.  Otherwise, more and more terrible things will occur.

It doesn't MATTER whether you AGREE or not with the treaty against childhood executions, or with the cut-off age of 18 for age of majority.  The issue is about IRI and other nations following thier own LAWS.

Ben: What Would You Do

What would you do with underage people in these situations? It is obviously a question that has puzzled many, not just in Iran but everywhere. Shoud we do something? Shoudl we do nothing?

The issue...

There some real problems here, apart from the case for this young man.
1) Iranian judicial system in general is flawed
2) It is outrageous to execute, hang, people for things they have done before they were 18
So, Ali may be guilty. We cannot say for sure, but it is not only Ali and there are many others in Iran facing the same problem. So, let's not debate whether Ali is, or is not, guilty, but the fact that the act of executing offenders for the crimes they have allegedly committed when they were children is inhumane. I also believe that execution in general and public execution in particular are inhumane, but hanging a person for having committed (allegedly) when he/she was 9, 14 or 16 years old... that is just nothing but a horror story from the Middle Ages!