FATHERS & SONS

Attend but...

Attend but walk out on the very first of Mr Ahmadinejad's lies. To be honest, this all seems like propaganda to me. American's should do the same regarding Mr Bush's speeches.

The real issues facing Iran and the US need to be resolved via face-to-face diplomacy between the US and Iranian governments.

I think it would be beneficial to step back and take a look at US-China relations at the time that Nixon took office. They were non existant and the US was fighting a war on China's border. Sound familiar?

At the time of Nixon's dialogues with China, the two sides seemed to have absolutely nothing in common. Yet, each decade, the relationship improved and the fate of the Chinese people along with it. And at no time have the Chinese and US governments really had that much in common in terms of values. Yet, the most objectional of differences seem to be fading.

But wait a second, wasn't Nixon a criminal? Yeah, Nixon was a highly flawed individual. As were the rulers of China. But sometimes progress is made via the most unlikely of sources.

I can make no sense of Iran and the US truely being strategic enemies. US and Iranian vital interests can easily dovetail one another. But, the Iranian government has to give up the some of the ideals of the revolution and the American government has to stop being so pig headed about past grievances.

As far as i can tell, the Iranian public is miles ahead of the Iranian government in terms of wanting dialog with the US but... American media seems to do a diservice to the American public by not preparing them for such a dialog. Blame faux news and Rush Limbaugh if you want but really... the entire US media is to blame.

Regardless, great post Mr Pourzal. Sorry for rambling on but I do wish the best for the future of US-Iranian relations.

How about Human Rights and Democray in Iran

While you could send your sons to meet and be inspired by Ahmad Betabi, you send them to see a man of oppression and injustice. Are you going to also tell your sons to ask the president about human rights violations, the high number of executions and lack of democracy there.

Mr. Pourzal

What was the point of your article? Are you trying to get the message across that Mr. Mahmud is a champion of oppressed people? If that is the case then you failed miserably.

sadly you may have aged but not wised

Dear Sir,
As a fellow shirazi and Iranian who like your sons grew up in this country BUT did learn to speak Persian and DID take the time to travel to Iran numerous times to get to know his country, I have to correct you that the speech by University of Columbia president was anything but McCarthy style and cooled my heart when I heard him attacking this mullah-lacky of a traiter and torturer of our people! When the Pres of Columbia mentioned the names of those Iranians who were in prison because of their beliefs or killed and when I think of those Amir Kabir students who were expelled from univeristy and/or imprisoned for demonstrating against Ahmadinezhad, I am very very happy at the words which the president of that University used to introduce him. "Gays dont exist in Iran" and for that matter neither do Human Rights or Transparency...so the next time you applaud your ill-informed and non-Iranian sons for holding up American principles remember that as an Iranian I thought that the only reason I would accept the bastardly invitation to have dinner with this lying monster would be to perhaps mention the names of two Iranian doctors who find themselves imprisoned in Iran currently for trying to start a "velvet" revolution through their successful needle giving and HIV prevention program in Iran to Mr. Ahmandinezhad and see what he would say.

Some more notes

Jamshid,

You are actually checking the comments' timestamps? And do so in order to figure who is whom?

You are actually verifying those time checks to find out what I was doing? You are actually going to the trouble of inserting your blabbermouth self in a conversation, posting a cheap shot just to try to "expose" me again? Don't you have a life? How absolutely pathetic.

Unlike yourself, I have the normal human ability to remember what I read 5 lines ago. It not only helps make interesting observations, it also helps me not contradict myself. This would be a valuable skill for you to have as well.

A couple of notes

Q, you wrote,

"You and your buddy (or is it the same person as "free thinker" and "anonymous1111", comments are only minutes apart, but you know actually I couldn't care less), sound like fascist vigilantes... "

You are actually checking the comments' timestamps? And do so in order to figure who is whom?

How sad.

Varjavand, you wrote,

"more than 90% of Iranian population is Muslim... Majority of them trust no government unless it has an element of religion to it. They are so powerful that they have been able to bring down one of the most brutally powerful regimes with their bare hands..."

Varjavand, you live in a fantasy. If the previous regime was so brutal, it would still be in power today, trust me. The previous regime "gave" Iran on a golden platter to the mollahs, bare hands were not necessary.

Majority of 90% of Iranians want some element of religion in their government? You are indeed detached from the realities of Iran and living in your fantasy.

Re: Pourzal

"go shake a finger at the Iranian leader, but to welcome him and express solidarity with Iran"

With Iran? Since when Ahmadinejad represents Iran? He only represents a repressive and murderous government, not Iran. Teach that to your son, Mr. Pourzal.

"demonizing Iran is the ruling elite's latest trick to distract Americans from home foreclosures, outsourced jobs and declining standard of living"

Was that an attempt to humor us? No comment, as it is such an absurd notion that it is not worth commenting.

"Western exaggerations about horrors of life in Soviet Bloc countries..."

What exagerations? Go to any formerly Soviet bloc country and take a poll whether they want to go back to the "not so horrific" Soviet era. Just try. You just make up false facts as you type, Mr. Pourzal.

Lastly, let me know when your son becomes an adult. I gladly pay for his airline ticket to Iran for a long visit. Have him live in there for a while, then come back and give us a report.

Dear Shamse

Dear Shamse Vazir;

They way you stated “Of the remaining 25 % only about 6 % are hard core religious” It implies 6% of 25% which is 1.5% of total, 70 million in my account = 1,050, 000. However, if you mean 6% of total population, then you are, of course, correct given total population of Iran is 72 Million.

In any case, I believe, religion has been, is, and continues to be a force with massive influence on Iranian politics.

Varjavand

Thanks for the nice article

This is a very touching and informative artcle. Thanks.

One more data point

One more data point:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_msvPkZ5SY

Choghok,   Thanks for

Choghok,

Thanks for your feedback.

I never call the people who I disagree with “enemies lackies”. I have to challenge you to quote even one sentence of that. I get called “CIA agent” all the time, and in response, I have said that it’s immature to call someone “”…agent”. But I definitely have said, and will say it always, that things that are said and done by some of us can be used by the IRI regime and whoever does not want the best interest of Iran, to their benefit. I didn’t say they do that intentionally though, and even the ones who do it intentionally, I never call them an “IRI agent” or anything remotely close to that. I called them misguided or ideologically driven, but that doesn’t mean they’re an “agent”.

Thanks for your support.

As far as U.S policy goes, I have disagreed with many of them, most recently the Iraq war. However, 1- U.S, over all, has been a positive influence and a responsible super power and it has done a lot to promote democracy and self liberation principals, unlike any other nation in the world, maybe, and I’m not saying this cause I’m Iranian, maybe with the exception of Iran during Cyrus the great time, and present Switzerland. 2- like you said, we shouldn’t blame our own mistakes on others, whether it’s the U.S or anyone else. The only time that we are stripped from responsibility is when a foreign army comes and invades us and occupies our land. That’s all. Blaming coups and revolutions and political fights and assassinations on others is big social illness. If we want to progress, we have to take command and believe in ourselves and work hard and be strong and feel strong and use our brains, not our hearts. Always feeling weak and helpless and defeated and bashing others and also relying on others, including foreign armies, to do whats good for us are the things that has kept us back. If we feel and act strong, no oil company can manipulate our resources, no foreign intelligence service can cause big damages to us, no “conspiracy” can hold us back, but if we’re weak, all of those are possible. Those are the principals of success. Those are how successful nations have done it.

Dear Varjavand

I don't think that Wiki is a good source neither is the CIA given its recent track record. On the other hand I did admit that the ACI poll was biased towards young people with Internet who are likely more secular. But the ACI poll is not the only source. My own friends who recently left Iran have been lamenting the fact that young people are rejecting religion to an excessive degree. As for the percentage, 25 % of 72 million would be 18 million and 6 % would be 4.3 million not 1.05.

With respect to why the IRI has been around for 30 years, there are several reasons. Governments tend to have a lot of inertia and power. It is not easy nor always desirable to overthrow a government just because you don't agree with it. There could be a lot of bloodshed; the Iranian population is weary after the previous revolution and a ten year war. In addition there is always the danger that something worse {i.e. MKO} would come or there would be chaos. Plus there is a lot of fear that foreign powers would take advantage of a revolution to try to break up the nation. The Shah lasted for 25 years after the infamous coup. Did that mean that most Iranians were monarchists? Of course not. The Soviet Union lasted for some 60 years. It sure did not mean that most of its citizens were communist! History shows us it was quite the opposite. I am pointing these things out because I believe Iran is much more complex than being portrayed.

With Regards,

Shamse Vazir NOT SV :-)

You're damaged and your son is naive, BIG DEAL!

It is absolutely your son's right to meet Iran's President. If he can find such a thing! If you can pull yourself together for a minute and stop being such a girl about your daddy issues, maybe you could redeem your guilt in not teaching your kid how to cuss in Persian, and explain how Iran really works.

Jooneh man, take 5 minutes and tell him the truth before he loses what little youthful innocence he has left to this handshake.

Tell him that women in Iran don't actually prefer insignificant invisibility, and that they don't wear the hejab because it keeps them warm,

Tell him how the election in Iran works, how the government of 12 Mollahs picks the candidates, how the government holds the election, how the government militia guards the ballot boxes, how the government counts the ballots, and how the government magically announces the overwhelming winner.

Tell him the president of Iran unlike anyhere else does not control the military, or set foreign policy. In Iran he can't even pass a law. But he can probably fix your parking ticket, but only because he used to be the mayor of Tehran. Before that, he was the chauffeur/valet of the Supreme Leader.

Then tell him how it's done in a real democracy,

Tell him that people like your son cannot speak out against a proven wrong, or even offer the slightest alternative idea, never mind utter the quietest  "Huh?" against the very real oppression in Iran,

Tell him he cannot even listen to music when he drives in Iran.

Tell him that there sure is religious freedom in Iran, the freedom of Islam to subdue all other religions, ideas, speech, and even assumed thoughts.

Tell him, tell him, tell him. Tell him everything he needs to know before he goes and becomes another disillusioned young man, and damaged forever like you.

If he still insists on meeting ahmadinejad, at least tell him to wash his hand afterward. Becasue there is much blood on that hand.

Right on, we support it!

Right on, we support it!

Boycotting Ahmadinejad = Start the war machine

It's just that simple. Currently there is no real opposition to the rgime that could be taken even vaguely seriously. So boycotting Ahmadinejad is simply approval to war plans by the neocons and other criminals who have ONLY their own interests in mind. Weakening the regime ONLY leads towards an attack by Israel or US on our country. The result would only be disaster. Such a war would make the past 29 years look like a holliday in Disneyland. Those who have no connection to Iran don't care, of course. 

Dear SV;

Dear SV,  

I checked some credible sources, here are the official figures on religion I Iran:

Wikipedia: 90% Moslem

CIA World Fact Book, 98% Moslem

Many other sources present similar figures.

May be the way this number is calculated is by the rule of subtraction; that is, they subtract the percentage of non-Muslims, around 10%, from the total,100%,  and the residual is considered as Muslim, I don’t know, I am guessing.

 The data you referred to is based on a very limited observations by an obscure organization,  based on a non representative sample of the Iranian with access to Internet most of whom are not typically religious, we even don't know how large was their sample.   

The organization behind this survey consist of three people, only one of them has a profile posted, therefore known. The other two are unknown. So, it is practically a one-man organization, obviously non- religious and seems to be anti IRI, hence, in my opinion, its findings are biased hence not reliable.

I still think that Iran is one of the most religious country in the world, , secularism, doesn’t mean atheism or non-believing. If as this survey suggests only 25% of Iranina population is religious of which only 6% are hard core believer, that is only 1, 050,000 indivials. Are you telling me that Iran is like Sweden, the least relious country in the world, however, it is ruled by a minority of 1,050,000 people, religiously devout who mostly live in the city of Ghom? Is that sensible?

Polling Data

Dear SZ,

You are right, in fact the first source I posted: the one by ACI totally contradicts the claim by Varjavand. For those who have not read it the poll indicates that over 75 % of Iranian males living in Iran are either secular or have no religion at all. Of the remaining 25 % only about 6 % are hard core religious. This tends to support Mr. Kashani's claim regarding a major change since 1979.

Of course one could argue that the poll heavily favors those with internet access which means the intellectuals. I don't disagree but Iranian politics has always been run by intellectuals. It was the intellectuals who built the foundations of IRI and are now opposing it, personally I find this very significant.

aaj sr's post on Page 3

WOW. That post is as good as any I have ever read on iranian.com, and I have been reading this site since the mid-late 1990s. No matter what Rostam or any others have said, aaj sr's post commands respect.

To paraphrase the children's book, Lilly and the Purple Plastic Purse: "Wow," said Zan Amrkai, "wow." That was just about all she could say.

F Kashani

I have read one of your articles and some of your comments online.

I do share some of your views but you seem to be pointing your finger on all not fully agreeing with you and calling them enemy's lackies (Mammad, Q, e.t.c). Be careful so you do not end up in the same group as you despise so much (regimes in Iran and North Korea) since they do the exact same thing you do.

It is correct of you to mention that we do have the mentality to victimize ourself. Thinking like Dayi Jan napelon that "the english" is behind all evil. This is not only our mentality but we share it with many former colonized countries. We should let the past be the past and work for a better future.

But on the other side you go to the extreme to make excuse for USA and their interventions in other sovereign countries. There is no excuse for what colonial powers and USA and Soviet did for money and power in many countries around the world.

Now you could excuse the USA for atrocities in Vietnam, other countries in south east asia, South America, supporting Saddam in Iraq and Apartheid in South Africa and some other countries a success because that is in interest of its people. Well then you should not be upset about the Mullahs since they beleive in the exact same thing.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

A Vigilant Q!

Is it not funnty that Q, of all people, who is watchful of the exact time and date that comments are being published on this site and even counts the number of minutes that two comments (mine and anonymous1111) are apart from each other, to label others as fascist vigilante?!!

Also of interest to me was this comment:

"it is clear that any independent initiative by a group of Iranians who want to affect change must be an IRI ploy".

For those who may not be familair with the usual apologist euphemism I endeavor to explain:

"independent" is a euphemism for "pro-reformist"
"initiative" is a euphemism for "same old deals"
"a group of Iranians" is an apologist euphemism for "US born or naturalized Iranians who protec the US or Regime interests as it suits them"
"to affect change" is a euphemism for "returning to the days of Khatami and Rafsenjani"

and finally,
"an IRI ploy" is a euphemism for "a flavor of the day plan concocted by the consortium of CASMII, NIAC an AIC".

Oh, I almost forgot:

"peace loving Iranians" is a euphemism for the three groups mentioned above and any one who is in favor a "deal" being cut between the US and the Islamist regime with the people of Iran left out to deal with their own

Hope it was a useful!

Pan-Ommatist regime of V-ran

Is done & over with. Every regime needs 2 pillars to stand on for longetivity. Legitimacy & Popularity.. The Qadesiyeh regime had no legitimacy to begin with since it,s inseption. Now with %05 popularity the Khallifate is standing on a pile of crap with one leg. It will fall with or without asghar,taghi and naghi (who these days Use shahnameh Icons to name themselves..legitimacy crisis?)..Those who support it have to clean up after because the crap has hardened.

Mr. Varjavand, you

Mr. Varjavand, you couldn’t be more wrong when you say “Be realistic, more than 90% of Iranian population is Muslim, most of whom Do Atishe. Majority of them trust no government unless it has an element of religion to it”. and of course I disagree with many of your other points, but wanted to comment on this one specifically.  

The Iran that you talk about here is the Iran pre-1979, not Iran 2008. The disservice that Iranian regime did to Islam will take more than one generation to repair. The Islam that Khomeini offered which hijacked the religion and speaks on behalf of Islam now, is the Islam of terror, intolerance and violence. The first people that this Islam turned off was the Iranian people. Remember, Iran has a 70% population of peaceful, smart and modern young people. Because of the information technology revolution and what has been passed on by their parents about the peaceful Islam that existed before the 1979 revolution, the Iranian people are NOT majority religious. As of matter of fact, if anything that 90% can be reversed (slightly) and maybe we can put the nonreligious people at somewhere around 70% and religious 30%.

Visiting Iran will confirm this reality to you.  

Good article, since you generated a lot of responses!

I guess you pushed a lot red buttons! I havn't even read your article or responses! Now you have 73 responses!

Shamse vazir, Varjavand

Thank you for going through the trouble of posting the two links. Given the tone of Mrs./Mr. Varjavand’s comment and particularly where it says “We are all educated and critical thinkers, not Mashdi Hassan or Dash Ghooloom” I was hoping for verifiable, multi-sourced data that an economic professor would demand even from his freshman students. The two sources you’ve kindly supplied I’ve been aware of, they do not in any way support the emphatic claims that Varjavand makes.

well said Mammad

As usual very thorough and clear, and you always make good sense.

Thank you

IRANdokht

Surveys of Iran

In response to the points brought up by "Varjavand" and "sz", I have noted two different surveys.

A) //fazel.dyndns.org/survey/nph-surveys.exe - Please note that this has a section for Iranians in Iran and one for outside. The one for in Iran is in Persian.
B) //www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1147 - This one is a Zogby poll with a different set of questions. There link gives some highlights of the results. The whole thing costs 100 - 200 $ which I was not about to pay :-)

Note that they yield quite different results, but still very interesting.

Q

As I said, if it were possible to actually stand up and tell Ahmadinejad about what he has or has not done, that would be fine. But, I doubt that they would allow a person like that to even get in the room.

As you know, I am against military attacks, sanctions (a low-intensity war), and interference in Iran's affairs. I am for dialogue. But a dialogue needs two sides who are willing to listen, not one.

I also believe that the U.S. does not give a hoot to whether Iran has a democracy or not. The U.S. supports democratic elections only if they bring to power a pro-U.S. person to power. Right at this moment, the U.S. is supporting some of the worst dictatorships in the world.

One of the Iranian-Americans that was jailed last year, when he travelled to Tehran, was told that we should only be active against war and intervention, and that we should not "interfere" with internal affairs and, in particular, we should not take the side of democratic groups, human rights advocates, defenders of reform, and "name names." This is the mentality of the present coalition of reactionary religious groups and part of the security/military establishment that supports MA.

As I said below, defending Iran's true national interests does not exclude the possibility of opposing some or all the things that the right wing is doing in Iran. In fact, I believe that they go hand in hand. 

I know that I'll get a smart a.. comment from LIZ, but who cares.

Mammad

Haghighateh Mahmood

Mr Pourzal,

Thank you for your opinion and honesty. I don't think that backing Iran, in now days, goes through backing Ahmadinejad. Mullahs count on the iranian patriotic fervour for their self-preservation. But if you look deeply on these 4 past years you got:

در دولت احمدي نژاد:
- طرح مبارزه با بد حجابي شروع شد.
- تحريم هاي امريکا شروع شد.
- موضوع هسته اي ايران تابلو شد.
- بنزين سهميه بندي شد.
- قيمت پودر لباسشوئي 3 برابر شد.
- قيمت برنج هم كه دست نخورد!!

- بدليل مشكلات اقتصادي و ... سرانه مطالعه از 20 دقيقه به 10 دقيقه كاهش يافت.

- وزير محترم كشور از دانشگاه آكسفورد فارغ التحصيل شد!
- سوبسيد آب و برق، گاز و شير حذف شد.
- فرمانده نيروي انتظامي تهران بزرگ را توي خانه عفاف گرفتند.
- استاد دانشگاه به شاگردش تجاوز کرد.
- بد سابقه ترین مدیر کشور و همکار احمدی نژاد مدیر سایپا شد.
- دولت به جای مشاوره با اقتصاد دانان با قصابان و بقالان مشورت کرد.
- قیمت خانه در تهران از پاریس گرانتر شد.
- برداشت از ذخیره ارزی 12 برابر شد.
- تورم به 21 درصد رسید.
- مردم ایتالیا و فرانسه توی خیابون علیه دولت ایران و تروریست بودنش تظاهرات کردند.
- زمزمه خلیج عربی شروع شد.
- قیمت مسکن سه برابر شد.
- طرح توریستی سفرهای استانی رئیس جمهور و وزرا شروع شد.
- دانش آموزان ایرانی موفق شدند در زیر زمین خانه شان انرژی هسته ای درست کنند.
- استادان دانشگاه مخالف دولت اجبارا بازنشته شدند.
- تمامی صنایع و کارخانه های دولتی به کنسرسیوم ها و مافیای داخلی فروخته شد.
- ایران از نظر کسب و کار در رده صد و بیست و چهارم قرار گرفت.
- کشور ما از نظر تورم در خاور میانه اول شد.
- سیل مهاجرت مردم به اولین کشور ممکن روانه شد .
- رئیس جمهور کشور موفق به دیدن هاله نورانی هنکام مذاکرات هسته ای شد.
- طرح تقسیم عادلانه !!! دریای خزر که تاریخ دانان آن را برابر با قرارداد ترکمانچای می دانند اجرا شد..
- حتی روسیه و چین هم ایران را تحریم کردند.
- آمار اعتیاد در کشور به بالاترین رقم در طی 50 سال اخیر رسید.
- کراک و انواع مواد مخدر به آسانی در دسترس مردم قرار گرفت.
- درصدی از مردم که زیر خط فقر قرار می گيرند به 40 درصد رسید.
- بدترين نتيجه در طول شركت در المپيك براي ايران رقم خورد.

We should take care of our own country

And the first item on the agenda is to get rid of IRI and their apologist. There is no way this government stays.

Mrs./Mr. Varjavand

“Be realistic, more than 90% of Iranian population is Muslim, most of whom Do Atishe. Majority of them trust no government unless it has an element of religion to it. They are so powerful that they have been able to bring down one of the most brutally powerful regimes with their bare hands. IRI, whether you like it or not, came to power through long decades of struggle by devout Muslims and their resilient leaders and their resolved supporters and sympathizers like my folks back home, like Haj Mostafa, the only son of my childhood next door neighbor, Amoo Haydar, and if democracy means vote of the majority, that is what they wanted and shouldn’t we respect that? I really want to know. “

You ask a fair question, but as an economist you know the value and necessity of multi sourced, unbiased and reliable data. Would you please cite your sources for the above data as the 90% who mostly are doggedly Moslem and majority of whom want a somewhat religious government? And while you are at it would you also provide a response to this academic question of should one take your claim at face value, then why so much killing, imprisoning and general oppression by, per your contention, the majority wished for government?