AK69

Tree of Liberty

What Thomas Jefferson meant with that quote was quite simple. Although not desireable, it is at times necassary to defend freedom for tyranny.

 Unfortunately my brothers and sisters in Iran (No I'm not Muslim, Irannian, nor Arab) too many of my fellow countrymen have lost sight of the goals of the founding fathers of the U.S. I am an ordinary citizen and I am ashamed of how our politicians have let freedom escape.

 May your God always be with you as mine is with me.

I agree

Azarin... once again your beautiful soul speaks for all of us.

sepas

well put dear Azarin

well put...couldn't have said it better

" Tree needs fresh water to grow, not blood, because I'm afraid the blood of tyrants might contaminate the blood of the brave patriots, and per consequent the fruits of this tree of liberty would become inconsumable!"    

cheers 

These day, my younger son

These day, my younger son is reading a series about Vampires and he keeps talking about how much they're cool and not really so horrible and he wishes to be a half-vampire so he could also live during the day!

So this quote reminded me of Dracula and this way "Freedom" turned into a blood thirsty mythical creature that would exist only in the world of our fantasies! But back to the reality of the world we live in, unfortunately it seems that most of the revolutions are based on blood and cruelty (plus they always kill their own children too), but they talk about justice and freedom (except for the White Revolution that wasn't really a revolution!)

Honestly, I think a tree needs fresh water to grow, not blood, because I'm afraid the blood of tyrants might contaminate the blood of the brave patriots, and per consequent the fruits of this tree of liberty would become inconsumable!   

che khabar e

So... can I assume that you are a card-carrying member of NRA?  :-)

Nope! I'm a libertarian and they are a bit too... something...for me. I find their press releases and other publications a bit disturbing, and I'm not really sure why. But I respect their efforts. And I do own guns. I'm a big fan of target shooting. Maybe I'm weird, but I find it relaxing.

Send..

Yeah, I know, I meant to use the word 'encourage', but somehow it got lost in the sauce. Well, if you would be ready to fight and die and see your children do so too if necessary that brings the question to a different place. Because then my post wasn't really an explanation, was it? So I'll pick it up again, but a little later.

As for NRA, absolutely. You got my number. 

lol

Rosie

#1. It's not for me to send anyone.  As for me, all I can really say is that I would defend my country with my life.  And I would be proud if my children did as well.  It would break my heart and I dare ANYONE to preach to me how a parent  should feel about their children or that I'm insensitive.  But there are some things worth dying for.  The life of my child would be one and the freedom of my country and my people would be another.  So talk about peace and patience are all real nice and I would be the first to hope for a non-violent solution but I'm also aware that with freedom comes a price.  And I don't think MY blood is any more precious than Neda's or any of the other hundreds and thousands of brave souls in Iran.  I don't condone or encourage it but I know it's a reality.

Ex.  I'm disappointed now.  I had brief hopes of sighting on Cheney.  :-)  Thanks for the explanation.  I was mistaken.  I just assumed Jefferson was talking about the British.  Very interesting.  So... can I assume that you are a card-carrying member of NRA?  :-)

Okay, Che Khabar, I'll try to explain

as best as I can. First of all, there's no contradiction between my first and second postings, just a misunderstanding, which I explained to Alborz in the second one.

________________

As regards the more general implcit questions of what do I believe here, why do I believe it, and what do I propose instead of (purposefully) spilt blood, I wrote a reply, a very long one that actually turned into an essay, so to say. But I lost it, and maybe that's better for now. Because maybe a shorter response will be clearer

So my short answers to the first two implicit questions are two questions: 

Do you, or the author of this blog, intend to go and shed your own bloodo n the frontlines, or send your children, siblings, spouses or parents to do so? And if not, why not?

And my short answer to the second question, what do I propose instead of violence?

Patience.

che khabar e

You have to kind of finesse it a little bit to get from the stated opinions of Jefferson and the other founding fathers to what they actually put in the Bill of Rights:

1st Amendement: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

2nd Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed.

In my opinion, the order of these two items in the Bill of Rights is not a coincidence. The first Amendment is the legitimate dissent, and the second amendment is intended to ensure that the government is responsive to that dissent. In other words, the second amendment protects the first amendment. Option 1 and Option 2. They were very careful with the wording, though, because they didn't want people to think that whenever they got a parking ticket they were supposed to pull a rambo on government employees and such.

Of course, Fascists and Marxists will always argue the meanings are quite different from that, no matter how often they are confronted by quotes by the very people who wrote enacted the Bill of Rights, such as Jefferson.

I wouldn't advise it

He shot a guy in the face once!

And also, keep in mind those were Jefferson's personal opinions! If it's not in the US Constitution, you can't do it.

But there are armed militias in the US that are opposed to the Federal Government. The FBI keeps a pretty close watch on them, but they only get prosecuted when they cross the line.

Ex

Ok, this is a stretch, but by your explanation (and Jefferson's as well), does that mean I can take up arms against Dick Cheney?  :-)

curious

How much and whose blood are we talking about? blood of patriots and inocent peope  have been sheding for thirty years now. I wonder when will the blood of these bastereds will be shed.

The full quote

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

He was not talking about the revolution against Britain. He was talking about dissent in the newly founded United States. He is arguing for both:

a) completely unrestricted freedom of assembly and freedom of expression

b) the right of the people (as individuals) to arm themselves, and to take arms against their own government if they feel it necessary

Note that he states those people who would want to rebel against the US government are WRONG, and that they are IGNORANT.  But he still insists that if they feel such need to express their discontent, they should be empowered to do so. And his basis for that is that it keeps the government clean (so to speak), and that it gives the people a limitless ability to vent their grievances against the government. In short, he gives the people permission to rebel and he denies the government authority to oppress them in any way.

At least, that's my interpretation of that quote.

This is one of the quotes that really pisses the gun control lobby off, when they try to claim the second amendment doesn't apply to private citizens.

To be honest, I don't really see how it applies to Iran.

Im confused too

Firtsly because right after the good Dr left Iran, he was in London for several days. And secondly, we all saw the film it didnt look like she said anything so long.... Im not sure she said anything at all.

And AK666, you're a little blood thirsty. At least we know what you dont sing whilst sat at your computer.

 Javaneh

Rosie

What exactly are you rejecting?  It was good enough for the US to fight for their freedom with the blood of its children, but not Iran?  Are you rejecting that freedom does come at a cost?  Your first comment sends one message and your next comment another.  I'm confused.  No one wants bloodshed.  This was discussed in another blog as well.  But one would have to ask the question.  What price are you willing to pay for freedom?

Last words

Actually, according to a close friend of Neda's (Hamid Panahi) who was present at her death, her last words were, "I'm burning, I'm burning!"

//www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-f...

Alborz, no! That's NOT what Neda said.

An Iranian friend here once told me that Iranians have a very strong sense of irony, as long as it's their own.

sigh...

____________________

I highly doubt Neda had time to say anything. And if she did, it sure wasn't that.

(And if it were, I wouldn't've told you).

_____________

I thoroughly and completely reject the rhetoric and premise behind this blog. You tell the kids, be as careful as possible, avoid confrontation as much as possible..you don't tell them the road to freedom is paved with the blood of martyrs. Oh and by the way be careful.

__________________________-

Patience. Patience.

Thomas Jefferson lived over 200 years ago. There had been no Gandhi, there had been no Martin Luther King.

I don't want to hear socio-historical-econo-anthropological-political analyses of the differences between India, the United States and Iran. I'm not interested.

It is Iran's historical imperative to lead the way to a New Day.

Patience.

______________

I thoroughly and completely reject the rhetoric and premise behind this blog.

_______________

that wasn't all for you, alborz. that was for whoever.

Rosie - Thank you for sharing this with us.

How profound and yet sad to learn of our beloved Neda's last words.

O Lord, O Thou Whose mercy hath encompassed all, Whose forgiveness is transcendent, Whose bounty is sublime, Whose pardon and generosity are all-embracing, and the lights of Whose forgiveness are diffused throughout the world!  O Lord of Glory!  I entreat Thee, fervently and tearfully, to cast upon Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto Thee the glances of the eye of Thy mercy.  Robe her in the mantle of Thy grace, bright with the ornaments of the celestial Paradise, and, sheltering her beneath the tree of Thy oneness, illumine her face with the lights of Thy mercy and compassion.

Bestow upon Thy heavenly handmaiden, O God, the holy fragrances born of the spirit of Thy forgiveness.  Cause her to dwell in a blissful abode, heal her griefs with the balm of Thy reunion, and, in accordance with Thy will, grant her admission to Thy holy Paradise.  Let the angels of Thy loving-kindness descend successively upon her, and shelter her beneath Thy blessed Tree.  Thou art, verily, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous, the All-Bountiful.

                                                          ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Alborz

I had the rare opportunity to be present recently..

at a discussion with the doctor who tried to save Neda's life, after he fled the country, and he told us that the last words she said before she died were:

"I hope there are many more like me."

Unfortunately Jefferson is still right

A friend of mine recently wrote: 

Great idea

You'll recognize me when you see me right behind Little Tweet.

It's  hard to agree with

It's  hard to agree with the statement without sounding like you're thirsting for blood.  But it doesn't mean that at all.  Absolutely everyone would like a revolution or successful movement or reform or whatever you want to call it... without bloodshed.  But it just doesn't happen that way. 

Ostaad... be fair.  :-)  That kind of comment will only encourage a return... what have YOU done?  The bottom line is that neither you nor I nor Captain nor anyone else has done more than the other.  Going to a few gatherings, wearing the green, lending written and verbal support... that's about the extent of any of ours involvement.  Unless you have done any more than that (and we would love to hear what your experiences have been), then I think it's only fair to say we're all speaking from the safety of cyberspace.

YT.  That is the bestest...LOL.  AK47 + 22.  Love it! 

AK47+22

Lets hope that its with more blood of the tyrant than patriots.

Fine quote

-YT 

I hereto forth assert

You go right ahead 69 and we promise we'll be behind you way way way behind...

Good for Jefferson...

Neda has already "refreshed" the tree of Liberty with her blood. As we say in Farsi, tora che sananah?

The question is what have YOU done so far to help the tree of liberty, or at least what you are going to do except talk and hiding in the safety of cyberspace?!!!

Lead the way, general!