Alborz

alborz

Thanks for the response & and the education. :)

Baran - Nothing official here!

The practice of any wisdom is indeed, dependent on the parameters you have cited.  The principle here is not official nor an edict, but rather an advice that is interpreted by each person according to their temperament and perspective. 

One person may regard it as a thoughtful and wise approach in any conversation, another may consider it as a basis of withholding information for a sinister objective.  What each of us gleans from these words is entirely contingent on our initial biases or its absence.  It is precisely the biases, as mentioned in the second quote, that we are to free ourselves from so that we can objectively consider and contemplate.

I certainly don't consider the challenge of ridding oneself of these biases to be simple or elementary, but do consider it possible.   I am entirely responsible for my own growth in understanding and its application in everyday life, and further more, asking questions is an integral part of my journey through life.  No holds barred!

My (human) vulnerability is also acknowledged by the mere fact that these words remind me of the station I should strive to achieve and the personal (individual) responsibility I have in preparing for this journey.  I invite you to read just one or two of the short Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah revealed during His banishment in Baghdad.  These are typically 1 to 4 sentences long and each focus on one of the human vulnerabilities while exhalting the potential that we should strive to achieve.  In one of the Hidden Words it is said:

Furthermore, there is no need for any means of "checks and balances" to avoid the possibility of how an adivce may be "interpreted by some to manipulate and or deceive".  There are no clergy in this Faith.  I, like any other person, have a personal responsibility towards my own understanding.  If I reliquinsh that responsibility to others, then the result is what we indeed have today, where priestcraft, fundamentalism and emulation will define religion and also be the cause of much, if not all, conflict.

Abdu'l Baha in one of His talks said:

"If religion becomes the cause of enmity and bloodshed, then irreligion is to be preferred, for religion is the remedy for every ailment, and if a remedy should become the cause of ailment and difficulty, it is better to abandon it. "

No doubt this resonates with your views on religion.

Alborz

* Hidden Words, No. 5 , Persian

//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/PHW/

alborz

Interesting quotes. Reflecting on the first one, it is a good practical advice (common sense also), and most people might be instinctively doing it, even from a very young age. It is safe to say that as youngsters we probably engaged in this to variety of degrees. For example, a little kid may know not to disclose certain stuff (e.g. the mischief at school) to his/her parents. As long as it is carried in good spirits, it is all fine.

However, if something is officially sanctioned, it takes it to a higher notch for the believers, and given the diverse nature of human beings, one wonders if somehow this advise, might be interpreted by some to manipulate and or deceive. Given human vulnerability, I wonder if there are any checks and balances to counter those behaviors.

Baran - Your comment...

... includes a reference to a quote that you may have read here on this site.  This quote is repeated here for completeness.

`Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.'  Such is the consummate wisdom to be observed in thy pursuits.  Be not oblivious thereof, if thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions.  First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the skilful physician.

It clearly states that this is the "consummate wisdom".  This wisdom extends to all aspects of life including the choice one makes in exchanges on this site.  While you may, as you are entitled to, feel that Baha'is "can disclose as little as they seem fit", you may also want to consider the possibility that another principle may also be at work.  This one relates to the person's motivations and in this regard allow me to share this quote with you.

"No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán. "

"The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth."

Far be it for me to provide you with an explanation that you would consider as complete, comprehensive and conclusive.  Anyone that has responded to your comments, including me, has shared with you their own understanding.  After all, this was the subject of two recent blogs on Fundamentalism and Emulation.

While your views are welcomed, it is understood that the responses may or may not lead to an agreement.  This is absolutely fine as neither you or I are here to convince each other of anything but contribute to an understanding that is not static but evolving.

Alborz

PS - Since Reza41 will no doubt respond, here it is in the twin languages of revelation in the Faith, Arabic and Persian.

//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

to reza 41

I don't care for your religious views, but I agree with what you are saying about the Bahais attitudes towards criticism. They consider anything critical about their faith, an insult, sometimes a personal one!

Based on their teachings, the Bahais have a different take on telling "truths". Essentially, they can disclose as little as they seem fit, based on timeliness, the listener, and the nature of knowlege itself. When asked a question, they can reveal very little, which sometimes might be considered as distoring facts. Yet they can do this with a clear conscience, since it is sanctioned by their teachings. So anything they say, has to be taken with more than just a grain of salt!

Mr. Rabbani

Dear Rabbani "ok", Alla NO Abha,:0)

I would suggest go back and read my "respond" to Alborz, as you see it was respond to a signal, that indicate his objections over my defencive comments and blogs,which clearly comprehended of wanting to engage of talk , which I clear my position that ,my intention as you try to insinuate IS NOT OFFENCIVE nor obligatory to believe what I think of Bahai faith, therefor no reason to scare,

how ever, knowing brain washing system in put in Bahai faith that insinuate hate toward to any critics ,it wouldn't allow its adherents tolerate even some one greet them in their own way,let alone intellectual debate, therefore I'm not after such engagement as you describe I am. I even hardly answer some of you ,not because I dont have an answer I'm just lazy to answer back.(not care enough)

you wrote:Our silence -- or more appropriately, us ignoring you -- has resulted in you thinking that we're scared of you or think that you may possess such powerful intellect that we won't be able to match it.

firstly you are not completely silence toward to my comments, I heard your agreement with me over Quran ;-)

secondly to prove your hippocratical view over critics ,and let you see that you are after naives rather than intellect individual یگذارید بهتر و به زبان خودمان بگویم : اولا شما را میشود به خام خار تشبیه کرد , شما را فقظ با پخته ها کاری نیست وگرنه درشت گویی مثل شخصی که در پایین این بلاگ شما را به عنوان دشمن اسلام و ایران مخاطب قرار میدهد چون متوجه شدید او چیزی را تکرار میکند که شاید تنها شنیده باشد و اثباتی نمیتواند بکند به او جواب بلند بالا میدهید, اما در مورد موارد مورد اشاره بنده و نقض صحبتهای جناب عالی که خارج از غیض و غرض است سکوت اختیار میکنید خلاصه خام خاری خود را توجیح نکنید بنده نشستم میبینم شما بهاییان جواب چه کسانی را می دهید و شکی نیست هر چه خام تر باشند شما بهتر جواب میدهید .
ثانیا:  شما می فرمایید بنده نمی خواهم نوع تعریف بهایی که در نظرشما هست را یاد بگیرم و تنها بنده نوع ارتدکس را میدانم  و بقیه فهم ها را خفه میکنم . واقعا نمی دانم باید بخندم و یا چه؟  بنده عرض کردم برای فهم بهتر از موضع همدیگر و نه برای یاد دادن به هم,  بنده چکار بکنم که به شما بفهمانم روش بنده طبق دستور صحیح اسلام برخورد با کفرکردن ( پوشش نهادن بر حقیقت) است و در نظر ما مسلمانان حقیقت آن است که نقض نشود اما متاسفانه شما و دوستانتان به جای روش صحیح و محترمانه تبادل نظر با انگ زدن و تهمت زدن سعی دارید بنده را به اینجا  و آنجا و این سرویس و یا حکومتی و مرکز خاص وصل کنید ,  این روش از اصل مطلب عبور کردن و گرد و خاک کردن  و  تهمتهای شخصی چسباندن را اینروزها در این مناظره ها شاهد هستیم چه کسانی به این روش متوسل میشوند. و برای ناظران پر واضح است که اشخاصی که این روش را دنبال میکنند غیر از سعی در کم رنگ کردن موضوعی که برای آن جوابی ندارند دنبال چیز دیگری نیستند. آقای ربانی: حسابی که پاک است از برسی معقولانه و مدرک چه باک است؟ 

و حال قصه الله ابهی گفتن بنده مسلمان به شمای بهایی , بنده با شخص بهایی ارتباط و دوستی مختصری داشتم  و در زمان دیدن ایشان به او سلام مبگفتم متوجه شدم ایشان به بنده جواب نمیداد, چند بار که این شد پرسیدم  چه شده که شما  جواب سلام مرا نمیدهید ایشان فرمود شما از پاسخ گرفتن سلام من سعی در تحمیل دینتان را به من دارید.:-o حال بنده برای اینکه این توهم ایجاد نشود به شما سلام خودتان را میدهم این چه حرفیست که شما میزنید که بنده سعی در بی احترامی دارم واقعا این منفی بافی و بد بینی و تهمتها در ذهن شما و دوستان بهایی شما فکر نمیکنید قسمتی از مغز شویی شما نسبت به هموطنان مسلمانتان باشد؟ ما در اسلام داریم که اگر کسی به شما سلام کرد جواب سلام او را گرم تر جواب دهید و حال این دستور شما و پاسخ شماست ؟

Qum?!

Sometimes the language he (Reza41)uses reminds me the Australian;)
Simply his purpose is "SARE KAR GOZASHTAN" Baha'is on IC.This is something he really enjoys!

Why we don't respond

Dear "Reza41",

For some time you've been asking that the Baha'is egage you in a direct discussion.  We won't.  Not now, not ever.  The reason is simple:  You don't have any interest in learning anything about the Baha'i Faith and only interested in spreading your brand of orthodoxy, and suppressing all those that thinking differently than your seminary in Qom.  So, no thanks.

Our silence -- or more appropriately, us ignoring you -- has resulted in you thinking that we're scared of you or think that you may possess such powerful intellect that we won't be able to match it.  Rest assured that the very opposite is true.

So keep writing and keep being ignored.  In fact, the more you write, the more the world will come to see the repulsive face of the Qom seminary that has produced mindsets like yours.

Incidently, we find your use of such Baha'i expressions as "Allah'u'Abha" offending and pervese.  More reason why you will be ignored.

Did we have enough dialogue?! 

Am I back?, from where ???

Dear Alborz; my position is not attacking your faith ,therefore if you all write honest ,than you would never see me writing to respond for long time, I had gone no where.

you wrote :Just like your accusations, keep talking hypotheticals.

In reality, you are accusing me of making accusations and talking hypothetical,

you and Mr.Rabbani if ever like to, we can respectfully chat ,no big deal to me, but you all chose to throw stone and ran away or hide.

 why don't you point out my "hypothetical talk" ? so I realize my mistake and we can intellectually have a little conversation toward to better understanding each other ?  I'm not disrespecting you or your faith, than why are you scare of discussion? don't tell me you are doing it by your own will and choice ,as you know to prevent of transparency to other Bahia's, your leader(with covering the real reason) ordered not to engage of any intellectual talks, therefore if you like to make accusation that is fine ,but pleas prove your case , so far what you hear from me in my responds to your and other Bahais attack or misleading ,it is nothing but telling the truth.again ,please don't accuse me of hypothetical talking or come up with prof ,as I can prove, "hypothetical talk" is the way of your faith untill now .

p.s  you said: I hope that you are enjoying the election debates amongst these most qualified of candidates, who from the outset have accused of each other embezzlement, dishonesty, and incompetence.

thanks, I really do enjoy,as you know this is good sign, everyone watching each other, I would have been worry if such a elections had preset  candidate and no debates like Baha'i elections, than prediction would be very easy who is going to come out of box. now, who is your guess for presidency?(just curious)

Agha Reza41 - I am glad that you are back...

... and catching my spelling mistakes!

I hope that you are enjoying the election debates amongst these most qualified of candidates, who from the outset have accused of each other embezzlement, dishonesty, and incompetence.

Are we to expect these characters to be the defenders of the rights of minorities. like Baha'is, when they themselves accuse each other of dishonesty, incompetence and un-Islamic?

Just like your accusations, keep talking hypotheticals.

Alborz

PS - I hope that you had a good weekend...it took you a while to show up here.

جناب ربانی:Alla'U'Abha

جناب ربانی:من هم مانند شما با جاسوس خواندن هم میهنان بهایی در مجموع مخالفم و مطمئن هستم در گفتار و فرمایشات امام بزرگوار تحریفی صورت گرفته چرا که جاسوس خاندن تمام اعضای این عقیده تنها جکیست , و باز با شما موافق هستم که هفت نفر و یا تمام زندانی های بهایی و یا غیر در زندانهای جمهوری اسلامی ایران هستند بیگناه هستند, تا وقتی که گناهشان اثبات شود و آنها را در زندان نگه داشتن بدون وکیل و محاکمه تا این زمان نیز خود جای سوال دارد اما در دو مورد دیگر با شما مخالفم یکی اینکه شما میفرمایید بهاییان هیچوقت ضد اسلام عمل نکردند . شما لازم نیست در کوچه ها راه بیافتید و جار بزنید که اسلام بد است در همین سایت ,همین خود شما طبق بلاگی که اگر خاطرتان باشد نوشتید که آن را بر اثر اعتراض امثال بنده حذف کردید که بنده کپی آن را دارم به امامان معصوم مان سریحا ناجوانمردانه تهمتهای ناروا زدید و آنها را دزد و غارتگر خواندید. شما را اگر بگذارند شناگر خوبی هستید . بعدا اینکه منسوخ کردن کتاب خدا که اعلام میکند آخرین خبر است و هیچ نسخ کننده ای چه در آینده و چه در گذشته برای این کتاب نخواهد بود را با چند کتابی مجعول که خود نیز قادر به فهم آن نیستید با آنها سعی در جایگزین کردن قران دارید این به معنی علیه اسلام گام برداشتن است اسلام هیچوقت در همچنین ادعایی نیست که آمده باشد که جایگزین دیگر ادیان باشد. و  همیچنین نگویید بر خلاف ایران بهاییان کاری نکردند, اولا: به  استناد  تاریخ ایران از این گروه تروریستی ضربه سختی متحمل شد و دوما نکوهش کردن ارق میهن دوستی و مقدم دانستن منافع قدرتهای بزرگ دنیا بر ایران و تشویق اجرای دستورات استعماری برای خلع صلاح کردن کشور و این قبیل دستورات این خود علیه ایران گام برداشتن است و ثانیا: شما فکر میکنید  وحدت در دنیا ایجاد کردن خوب است اگر چنین بود خداوند در قرآن آن را تجویز میکرد اما نکرد .کمال از کذرگاه کثرت میگذرد و نه وحدت و این دو معنی باهم ترکیب نخواهند شد و شعار وحدت در کثرت جدید شما در هیچ یک از کتابهای شما وجود ندارد اگر هست بفرمایید و اگر باشد باید پرسید پس چرا شما به بهاییان شاخه های دیگر اجازه ابراز وجود نمی دهید. وسلام 

? نعم مادی و معنوی را بر خادمان ثوابی جزیل فائز و نائل فرما.

Dear Alborz;Allah'u'Abha

I thought Bahais are not after earthy and heavenly gifts and prizes  and Baha'ullah is enough for them  ???

BTW, it is a cheep shut, going after small mistakes and grammar of illiterate individuals like me ,that doesn't claim to be perfect ,

 in other hand , discounting your highest figures of such a mistakes(which many can be found through out their writings) which they claim to be perfect and infallible,

yet, their lack of knowledge of spelling of very simple words or grammatically correct way of writing it proves otherwise? or is it  just your miswriting Mr.Alborz, like me,  I guess you didn't like dictate classes in your school time , ha?  <:0)

 قیبی? do you mean  غیبی?

Response to "Shame ..."

Your childish outburst doesn't deserve a response and the fact that you refused to sign your post -- not even by a fake name -- does not credit you with courage.

Baha'is have never spoken negatgively about Iran and I challenge you to produce a single statement negative of Iran.  Baha'is have the highest regard for Iran and I can produce hundreds of statements by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and other figures of the Faith lauding in the most positive language the potential and bright future of Iran, as well as its glorious past.

Baha'is also have never spoken against Islamic Republic of Iran in legimitate discharge of its duties and will never do so.  Nor will the Baha'is ever speak against Islam -- a religion which they hold in highest regard. 

Baha'is have, however, protested in strongest possible terms the inhumane treatement of the Baha'is of Iran, the largest minority community of our nation, and deprivation of human and civil rights of the Baha'is, kurds, women, university students, intellectuals, journalists, and so many others.  Baha'is demand that the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which Iran is a signatory, be fully observed for all Iranians regardless of race, gender, religion or tribal affiliation.

Shame ...

Shame on Bahais and their anti-Iranian propaganda. Bahais are truly Zio-Nazi agents (perhaps spies as well).

هم صدا با شما، مناجاتی به یاد یاران ایران

هوالله

ای خدای مهربان نبأ عظیمت را باسبابی قیبی در عالم امکان نصرتی سریع بخش و یاران ایران را در این سبیل بخدماتی فائق موفق کن سر‌ا پرده وحدت عالم انسانی‌ را در قطب آفاق به موجب تعالیم ربانیه‌ات مرتفع نما و یاران آن سامان را در سایه آن خیمه یک رنگ در انظار عالم جلوه ده این حزب متشتت را در ضل لوأ میثاقت ناصر‌آ جمع کن و هر یک را عزیز دو جهان فرما آلأ و نعم مادی و معنوی را بر خادمان جانفشان امر‌ت مبذول کن و این بندگان با وفایت را در ملکوت خویش به ثوابی جزیل فائز و نائل فرما.

                                                                  بنده آستانش شوقی

lalehgillani

If you think IRI or it's supporters are Islam, you are in deeper darkness than they are. Okay, IRI is bad. Why don't you ever critisize other religious fanatics who rule other countries? People have been killed, raped, lands taken, children murdered, properties stolen, countries invaded and everything else under other religions, but it is always Islam that upsets you.

It seems that you come from a family that hated Islam and Muslims deeply and that hate has been transfered to you. Are you ignorant or biased or both? When do you ever want to learn?

تناقض

میگویند اسلام دعوت به توحيد، معنويت، برادری و صلح ميكند. میگویند اسلام مذهب انسان دوستی و کسب عدالت است. میگویند اسلام مکتب فطرت است و به تمامی نیازهای طبیعی و فطری انسان توجه دارد. میگویند آرامش و شادی روان هدیۀ اسلام به بشریت است.

عجیب است که عصر تمامی حکومتهای اسلامی روزگار زجر و عذاب، خشم و خصومت، کینه و قصاص بوده است.

جنایتکاران روزی باید به ملت سوگوار ایران جواب داده و در برابر ایزد یکتا پاسخگو باشند... آرزوی آزادی هموطنان بهائی را دارم.

Out of subject.Sorry!

Dear Mona, I am not a blogger, but you are:)Just simple suggestion, I think blogs about women's right and education of childeren would be wonderful.Regards,

//donyayezan.com/

جاسوسانی فوق العاده و استثنایی‌ :)))

...... که با معرفی‌ خودشان (بهائی) هویتشان را آشکار می‌‌کنند. با اینکه مسئولین محترم و دلسوز جمهوری اسلامی از آنها بارها خواسته ا‌ند (حتی با تهدید) که خودشان را لو ندهند و لی این جاسوسان به این مطلب توجه نکرده و نقش خود را کتمان نمی‌‌کنند .

--بسیاری از این جاسوسان در روستاهای دور افتاده مشغول به زندگی بودند ، که از بقیه روستا نشینان خواسته شد به هر طریق ممکن این جاسوسان را متقاعد کنند که به مناطق دیگری جهت دسترسی‌ به امکانات بیشتر جاسوسی، روستای خود را ترک کنند. در بعضی‌ موارد گرمی عشق و محبتی که این روستاییان در هنگام درخواستشان بروز می‌‌دادند ، باعث آتش گرفتن خانه‌های این جاسوسان شد.

--تعدادی از این جاسوسان اساتید دانشگاهها بودند که وقت خود را بنوشتن کتاب، مقالات علمی‌ و توسعه دانش تلف می‌‌کردند و مقامات محترم امور به این جاسوسان مرخصی دائمی دادند که یاد بگیرند یک جاسوس وقت و زمانش را صرف کارهای مهمتری باید بکند. بعضی از آنها هم اعدام شدند تا به آنها ثابت شود که در هر حال جاسوس هستند و ممکن است اعدام هم بشوند.

--بر خلاف فیلمها که جاسوسان بین سنین ۲۶-۴۳ سال هستند ، این جاسوسان اصلا سن و سال نمی‌‌شناسند و از بچه دبستانی تا پیرمرد ۸۰ ساله به ظاهر کشاورز همگی مشغول به جاسوسی ا‌ند.

-- با توجه به اینکه این جاسوسان در بیش از ۲۰۰ کشور دنیا ساکن هستند اولیا ی زحمتکش و فعال جمهوری اسلامی باید تحقیق و مطالعه کنند  که با چه ترفندها و تکنیک‌هایی‌ یک جاسوس (بهائی) سرخپوست، مغولستانی، برزیلی،آرژانتینی،...برای دولت اسرائیل،آمریکا،انگلیس جاسوسی می‌‌کند. باطبع نتیجه این تحقیقات و پژوهشها برای بقیه جاسوسان دنیا ارزشمند خواهد بود.

مونا :)

ایران من

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmH_G-Av45s&feature...

one human family

" In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love ..... "
" O well-beloved ones! The tabernacle of unity hath been raised; regard ye not one another as strangers. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch." Baha`u`llah

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kShm-pmB-aU&feature...

I am ashamed of the rulers

I am ashamed of the rulers in my country and the people who chose them!

ایران تنها کشوری هست...

١-ایران تنها کشوری هست که حکم های اعدام های انسان های بیگناهش با نام خدا شروع میشود!! فی سبیل الله...
(لااقل نازی ها در المان جنایت های خودشان را به نام خودشان و نه به نام خدا انجام دادن)

٢-ایران تنها کشوری هست که بچه های بهایی در مدرسه بطور سیستماتیک در طول ١٦٠سال مورد اذیت و ازار قرار گرفتند و میگیرند.

٣-ایران تنها کشوری هست که حتی مرده ها هم جاسوس هستند.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9AVQc6Itso

٤-ایران تنها کشوری هست که جاسوسان بهایی ان, هم برای اسراییل جاسوسی میکنند و هم به اسراییل کمک مالی می کنند.بیت المال...
اخه کجا دنیا ادم دستی به کار فرما پول میده!!
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Freedom for All Iranians!

Hope to see a free Iran for all Iranians including the Bahai's.

well said

As an Iranian I am totaly ashamed and disgusted  of the behaviors of islamists, specialy towards women and religous minorities. I do hope I live long enough to see the end of this horrfic regime. 

Mehran-001, your understanding...

...is the first step.

Thank you for this first step.

Alborz

Alborz

I am ashamed and disgusted. I wish I could do something for your cause but I can't. I just hope something happens and we get rid of these IRI monsters...