Ali_UK

Ali_UK - you can now see just one type of attack...

... that attempts to simply hijack a blog.  This is the extent, no more, no less.  Anonymous414's comments are distinguished from the attacks directed at the Baha'is in Iran and which has been already answered on this thread.

Anonymous414 has never identified his perspective on anything else other than that he is against the Baha'is.  Had your blog been about, let's say "why is Anonymous414 against the Baha'is", then most assuredly you would not have had an answer!

Anonymous414 is like the foam on the ocean, feeble and transient.  The persecutions in Iran are of a very different nature as it is sanctioned, systematic and persistent, and one that the world community, initially, and the Iranian people, now, have rallied against.

Anonymous414, never the less, will be responded to for the mere fact that he serves a noble purpose.   I am confident that by expressing himself and being responded to kindly and patiently by those that are far more patient than I, this person too will over time call into question his approach, if not his views.

Best,

Alborz

To Adib

Your response is full of typical Baha'i self-contradictions and counter-intuitive assertions. You first bad-mouth William Miller and question his integrity then go on to acknowledge the integrity of Dr. Sa'eed Khan who is being quoted by Miller as to his personal assessment of Baha'is. The quote is Sa'eed Khan's and that is what you need to deal with here because it is his assertion, not Miller's. So on the face of things you've got your criticism and mud-slinging completely backwards.

Second, as to the link you provided, I don't see any refutation by you or anyone else of any material submitted by NUR. On the contrary I see you and your fellow Baha'is merely making assertions while masking your intentions based on your own internal sources which NUR had earlier refuted quite robustly. But then again this is a typical dishonest argumentative tactic of you Baha'is which NUR, to his credit, has exposed both here and elsewhere.

By the way, I ordered your book when you first advertised it on that blog. It leaves more questions unanswered than answered, and because of it I am leaning to agree with many of the arguments which submit a dubious origin as well as dubious political connections to your religion. In the future I would advise you dig deeper with your research and present information more cogently and from multiple perspectives before publicly submitting such material that only makes you look like a rank amateur while possibly hurting your future career prospects as a result.

Badi19

You call those groups divisions? If I claim to be the messiah and get 30 followers in 50 years, for example, while the mainstream religion from which I broke away has over 5 million, can it honestly be said that I made a legitimate schism in the parent faith?

Azalis/Bayanis are not even Baha'is to begin with. The New History Society has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith and has been defunct for over 30 years. There are no such thing as the "Free Baha'is." Daheshism is not a sect of anything. The "Unitarian Baha'is" are extinct. The Reform Baha'i Faith's only follower is its founder, Fred Glaysher. The same is likely the case with the "Essence of the Baha'i Faith" and its "leader", John Carre. The Tarbiyat Baha'is consist of Rex King's immediate family. Orthodox Baha'is have 40 members according to a 2007 U.S. court memorandum. Lastly, the BUPC has no more than a 100, and even they have fragmented into yet smaller and smaller divisions since the death of Leland Jensen, the child molestor who founded it, in 1996, and Neal Chase's claim to leadership.

So in sum, of those 17 groups, three of them don't even claim to be Baha'is; one of them has been extinct for decades; one of them never even existed; two of them likely have no more than one adherent; and all the others combined probably don't even surpass 150 individuals.

150 people concentrated in no more than five or six cities compared to 6 million in more than 218 countries across the globe.

Do you realize that, at best, those groups form an infinitesimal 0.000025% of the total "Baha'i" population? That's it.

This is what the Central Figures of the Baha'i Faith meant when they said their religion would be protected from schism. I don't consider 150 individuals compared to 6 million schismatic, and I'm sure not many others do as well.

Warmest regards,
Adib 

ALI-UK

How much you know about the 17 sects in the Baha'i faith? you can check this site and know more :
//www.sectsofbahais.com
Also google for Orthodox Bahais and you will get to learn more about the divisions between them in 160 years.

Anonymous414

Baha'is are arrogant, hypocritical with double-standards, they have absolutely no sense of fairness or decency, they are corrupt in their business dealings with other people, they are the worst abusive bullies to the slightest criticism, they have an arrogant sense of entitlement that the whole world owes them something and accordingly prance around like peacocks as if the sun literally shines out of their backsides. Someone else posted this below here a while ago and summarizes my own reasons as well. This is probably why Baha'is are generally disliked in Iran.

Dear Anonymous414, 

Considering that William Miller was a Presbyterian missionary, it's not surprising that he would resort to badmouthing Baha'is when he was unable to convert even a fraction of them. This is even evidenced by the place from which the excerpt was derived: "Mission Problems in New Persia". At any rate, one man's testimony proves nothing. I could very well fabricate an account stating that Zoroastrians were a naive and bumbling group of people - which I most certainly do not believe - and it would be no more authentic than Miller's "testimony."

Dr Sa'eed Khan [was] a highly-respected physician...who had as a doctor treated the second widow of the Bab, and had for a lifetime known intimately both Babis [i.e. Bayanis] and Baha'is in Tehran and
Hamadan.

This is true. His integrity as a physician is recorded in multiple primary and secondary sources alike. However, it is important to note that he was also a convert to Christianity, for which he was an ardent proselytizer (ref: Ash'ar-i Jinab-i Na'im va sharh-i an, mawsum bi Jannat-i Na'im). He also happens to be the person who turned over most of his research to William Miller, the aforementioned Presbyterian missionary. Both being ardent proselytizers, we can then see why they logically came to dislike Baha'is when their conversion attempts went unsuccessfully. 

Perhaps you are looking for objective sources. Let me be the first to tell you that the texts of disgruntled missionaries who have an axe to grind are not the best places to start.

Also, I also sincerely hope you realize that copying Nima Hazini's error-laden signature is not only fruitless but pointless, as every facet of it has already been answered by "Iran-Lover" in this blog (scroll down to see the responses):

//iranian.com/main/blog/adibm/fact-vs-fiction 

Best wishes,
Adib 

Very simple...

Baha'is are arrogant, hypocritical with double-standards, they have absolutely no sense of fairness or decency, they are corrupt in their business dealings with other people, they are the worst abusive bullies to the slightest criticism, they have an arrogant sense of entitlement that the whole world owes them something and accordingly prance around like peacocks as if the sun literally shines out of their backsides. Someone else posted this below here a while ago and summarizes my own reasons as well. This is probably why Baha'is are generally disliked in Iran.

From Mission Problems in New Persia, 1926, p. 83, 87 & 89 quoted by
William McElwee Miller in The Baha'i Faith: It's History and
Teachings, 1973, p. 289.

Quote

"...There is no conscience with them [ i.e. the Baha'is], they keep to no principle, they tell you what is untrue, ignoring or denying undoubted historical facts, and this is the character of both the leader and the led...As to morality and honesty, the whole system has proved disappointing...I have been in contact with many Baha'is, and have had dealings with many and have tested many, and unfortunately I have met not a single one who could be called honest or faithful in
the full sense of these words..."

Dr Sa'eed Khan [was] a highly-respected physician...who had as a doctor treated the second widow of the Bab, and had for a lifetime known intimately both Babis [i.e. Bayanis] and Baha'is in Tehran and
Hamadan.

Ali_UK - a good starting point...

... as it appears that you have asked a sincere question.  But one reason for having received a varied response from many perspectives, is that the topic has been in discussion for some time on this site and your very legitimate question simply appeared to be out of order.  Just as if I were to walk into a discussion that had been progress and ask a very basic, but never the less very legitimate question.

In such a setting, even the phrasing of your question can evoke a response that tries to seek an intent other than what was truly meant.  More specifically you asked "Why Bahai's are not treated as well as other minorities in Iran?".  This is like asking "Why Jews were not treated as well as the other minorities in Nazi Germany?"

This last question evokes all sorts of thoughts about the intent of the questioner.   With over 300 Baha'is executed since the revolution, and tens of Baha'is in prison, facing trumped up charges that could lead to their execution, and tens of thousands of their youth deprived of higher education, and their cemeteries bull-dozed and their livelihoods threatened and their lives at the mercy of fanatical mobs, I hope that you can understand how your question could be misunderstood.

While you have received a sampling of responses to your question, there is no better place than the link below for you to develop an understanding of the origins of this persecution and its evolution into a government sanctioned program of extermination that is in its full-scale implementation.

//question.bahai.org/

There have been many folks on this site that have asked similarly innocent question with an intent other yours. So as a commentator said on this thread, I too hope that you are in a position to investigate on your own. 

Best,

Alborz

Dear Ali_UK

I feel your sincerity in your last reply.

I have to mention that as a child I suffered the harassment and persecution by our muslim friends intreagued by fanatical clergy and at the same time we had a cleric who lived 3 doors away from our house and during the month Muhharam when mobs would stream down the streets and bellowed slogans agaist Bahais,but that MULLAH always defended us from illdoers, May God Bless Him!

One day a man who had epilepsy had an attack in front of our house, people had streaked a circle around him and were trying to bring him back, at that moment I was coming back from the bakery shop, it was dark and I bearly could see the group of people huddled around the poor man, they asked me to give them some water, You know I was a child of 6 or seven and that was about 50 years ago, I was so scared that I got into my house and did not even mention that incident to my parents ,so after a few minutes when the people did not receive any reponse, they pounded on our door insulting and trying to break into our house. I am really sorry for not respoding in more humane way. What can you expect of a 6  year old scared child?And of course my parents scolded me after they new about the whole thing.

I am trying to mention just one reason that has been the cause of missunderstanding that also has had its roots in previous misundestandings.

The main reason for what you are bringing up here is that the clergy has had his own major share for hatred. If you study independently the Bahai Faith and there is no problem for you as you live in The UK you will find no teachings in the Bahai faith to be cause of being hated. I advise you to go and meet bahais and ask them or read on line the authentic and genuine Bahai Iinformation, as you probably know , there are also many people who have tried to mis represent the Bahai Faith and mislead people from investigating the true nature of Bahai faith. I wish you good luck and I apologise in the name of any bahai member on this site who has offended you.

 so cheers and good luck!

Wrong reactions

In one of my posts ,I clearly stated my beliefs against any persecution of any person/s for their beliefs.This includes Bahai's now , jews ( germany ) , arminians ( turkey ) , muslims ( bosnia ) , etc.... 

All I have done is that I have mentioned a subject which is clearly and understandebly very sensitive for Bahai's.

However , it should not stop someone trying to get to the root cause of this perception.Hence my question a few days ago.

Out of all the replies , it was only Adib ( apologies for getting your name wrong ) who offered some explanation.This I thought went someway towads understanding the attitude/feeling towrards bahai's.I was not "blaming the vicitm" as one of repies stated.

I live and work in UK.Have done for over 20 years.I am not one of "them" as you implied.I am not an idiot and this is the first time I posted anything here.I can not say it has been pleasant and/or educational.

alirez41-uk

You signed in 3 days ago and your first so called blog is to trigger hatred,i am sure in your previous users name and contributions you did not find anything but failure and frustration,so you signed in with a new user's name, poor thing!
Shiate muslims are hated by sunnis and christians and jews all over the world because of followers like you!
As a Bahai,I respect Islam as a Divine Religion and respest Hazrate Muhammad and Holy Koran
I also want to appricate HATEIRI's comments as how and why Hitler did the same thing to Jew during Holocaust
It is good to see that there are fair and broad minded people on this community who can see with their own eyes the injustice and cruelty inflicted upon Bahais and they are not remaining silent.
Remain assured that the clouds of darkness that are covering the horizon of Iran will be disperssed and the Truth of Bahai faith will be known to every honorable Iranian who has been hindered by the gossip, slander and lies of Mullahs and their paid agents.

ali_uk

Do you know Hitler asked the same question in 1933 about the Jews in Europe?

he said why is that Jews are hated in European society and he went on to blame all the economical crisis and corruption in the country on the Jews.

That is how ignorant, primitive, backward people think. From a stupid ideology and ignorance hatred arise.

Examples Holocaust, Cambodia, Rewanda, Bosnia, Sudan and Iran.

Why should ones religion, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation been questioned?

I think you posted this blog to get attention and see how many people will put comments. Obviously so far you have posted 3 comments for yourself.

I am sorry to say this and I rarely say it to a blogger but you are an idiot. And I am an idiot to comment on your blog but I couldn't resists since there are too many of you running our country and it is becoming disgusting to let you get away with a stupid blog like that.

God Bless bahai's and all other minorities in Iran

AND 

I apologize sincerely for any crime we did against you

Ali_UK

I don't know how and where I have been offensive to you, but nevertheless, please do not put my name beside Mr Rabbani's name.

Mr Rabbani is a well respected university professor, a very great scholar who has accomplished many great achievements, while I am nobody, just a simple observer in this small community.

Comparing my comment to the precious statement of Mr Rabbani, is a huge mistake which comes from your lack of overall information.

I will stay away from this discussion, as I see dear Adib is here and he is the answer to all your questions as he is very knowledgeable and master the tact of answering your questions.(and his name is ADIB)

As a non Bahai, I can only observe and say what I see as being true or  false.

Respectfully,

Blaming the victim?

Imagine if I asked this question back in 1978.

Why is it that christians ( for example ) are liked by muslims.They are an integral part of our society.They have their churches , their customs ,even moving forward to IRI times , not much has changed.You could not say the same about Bahai's.

The same applies now.Talking about seperation of religonand governance , IRI , etc... just confuses the issue I am trying to clear in my head.

Thank you Abid

Thank you for your clear explanation.

On your poinrt 1 :- It is a significant divergence.124000 prohets starting from Adam and ending with Mohammad....

Your point 2 :- Here could cbe a significant ontributer to this view of Bahai's? by musilm or shia's

" end to the institution of clergy" and " hindrance for investigating the truth for oneself ".

Does this undermines just the clergy or could it undermine the foundations of Islam.

Please correct me if I am getting this wrong?Or please elaborate ..

Thank you

Blaming the victim?

Your blog gives the impression that there is something inherently deviant about Bahai faith that causes Iranians to hate them!

If your hypotheses is correct! why other nations are not feeling the same about Bahai faith?

In Iran from the inception of Bahai faith , clergy found themselves threatened by the principles of Bahai faith i.e. personal investigation of truth, and spread vicious rumors about Bahai faith ( well repeat a rumor and lie enough it becomes a well known reality!!!!).

You have to realise that the principle of individual investigation of truth has the power to put an end to the clergy's long monopoly on the masses in Iran.

Just look at them now how they are clinging to power and ruling Iran ??Do you think they would have sat still and let God's word prevail??

So the root cause of the opposition is the lies that clergy have spread about Bahai faith. Later on it did get some political flavour too, for example Baha'i faith's association with Russia, Britain and in the last 48 years Israel!!!

My question to you is that why Bahais are being asked repeatedly to recant their beliefs to be free from death sentences??

How could a spy be exonerated from his or her offense just by recanting something that is related to her personal belief??

Akhonds can pretend that Bahais are spies but fortunately the world and now average Iranian are realising that if Akhonds are fighting with each other so rootlessly for power and wealth, would they be fair to a faith that has been sent by God to finish their monopoly and corruption on Earth?

Tahirih

Thank you for asking sincerely.

The Baha'i Faith is an independent religion, not a sect. The Encyclopedia Britannica and many other objective, neutral sources will testify to this. Just thought I would inform you on this point. Furthermore, our emergence from Islam is analogous to Christianity's eventual independence as a religion from Judaism.

Offhand, I can think of just two big reasons why Iranian Baha'is are persecuted so badly. Perhaps other Baha'is will be able to pitch in over the course of the day and contribute to this dialogue.

1. Chronology in a religious context

The Baha'i Faith is a post-Islamic religion that was conceived in a region where Islam has reigned for centuries. This is important because of the widespread interpretation of Qur'an 33:40, which has been taken by most Muslims to mean that no prophets may come after Muhammad. This, according to the religious law (and prevalent construing, or misconstruing to us, thereof) of the land of our religion's inception, virtually illegitimizes us as a faith by default. They can call us infidels and whatnot because, according to their line of thinking and their interpretations of Scripture, we are apostates. I guess there are no human rights for kaffirs like us.

2. Conflict with our teachings and their beliefs

Baha'u'llah, founder of the Baha'i Faith, called for an end to the institution of clergy, as they have been an obstacle and hindrance for investigating the truth for oneself for far too long. By God, just look at Iran! Look at all the lies that the clergy has spread to the masses, about us being Zionists and the products of Russian imperialism and British colonialism, for none of which there is a single shred of evidence. It is evident, then, that when one of our teachings is in blatant opposition to the Shi'a ecclesiastical structure which has molded itself and risen to power in Iran, we will be scorned and condemned by that very structure.

On this note...when my mother was at the University of Tehran studying Arabic Language and Literature (for which she now holds a degree), she once got into a debate with another student about Qur'an 33:40. My mother was arguing her side, and the other girl finally said, "Let me go get the mullah and you can talk with him about this," to which my mother responded, "I can think for myself on this topic. Why can't you?"

I hope we can maintain a civil atmosphere and that a fruitful discussion will emerge therefrom.

Be well,
Adib 

Correction on the last post

The way that Christians , Jews or zerostrains NEVER do in Iran