Farsinameh

I am not a religious person but

What I know is all things in universe is made of atoms. The interaction of atoms, the way they are arranged within the human body (true for the case of animals) and the environment will bring  change in our body, which we can call it feeling (love or hate). There is no god in this formula and I am sure in the near future we will be able to manupulate the arrangment of atoms in our body in such a way that will extend our life expectancy, strength, and many others that we desire to have. The reason we are still into religion is our weakness of underestanding ourself and universe - may atoms of universe be with you 

VPK: an attempt to answer

Your question is very fundamental to Islam as well as all other biblical faiths. It goes to the roots of monotheism and the role of evil in a single-god universe. I attempt to answer, but others who know more or differently are welcome to join.

What is "wrong" in a universe dominated by an omnipotent god? If all is turning upon his will, then who is to be blamed as the "wrong doer"? At the extreme, we are just puppets and he is the puppeteer, so no matter what we do, we are god's "children" and he has to love us and forgive us. At a more practical level, is there any difference between doing good and doing evil? Why should we praise mother Teresa and hate Hitler?

So you see that your little innocent question is not as easy as you made it seem to be! It hinges on our "will" versus our "destiny", our "actions" versus our "responsibilities", our rewards and our punishments, and ultimately our value system. Writing a proper answer will take a book or two!

Below, I have tried to answer your question not based on Koran or Bible, but from my own heart and my own beliefs.

//iranian.com/main/blog/arash-monzavi-kia/nothing-sacred

Arash

I am not trying to be disrespectful but I have a question I asked in this blog and am still waiting for a response. It will help me understand what you and others see in the Quoran. I will restate my question. Please either answer it or plainly say that you will not. 

God does not love wrongdoers!

Who is a "wrongdoer". Is it the one who does not wear hijab; the woman who dares say she is equal to man; the polytheist; the unbeliever; the homosexual or just anyone who does not submit.

What is the good  of "conditional" love? It is easy to love those who are obedient. The trick is loving those who are not obedient. Is there any of that love in Quoran? 

In your quotes there are 8 instances of "God does not love" and 6 instances of "God loves". This is conditional love aka carrot and stick; used to keep people scared so they do what they are told. 

How is the god in Quoran any different from the Shah? Rewards the obedient; tortures the disobedient? 

To others including Faryam: This is a question to Arash. Please let him answer and for god's sake please don't point me to a web site. I want a real hand written response. Not prewritten web pages.

Thank you

VPK

Mooshie

You were made to look like a fool months ago on this question. Here you are demanding to be proven a fool yet AGAIN. You ranted at Q:

There are many words for love in Arabic besides Eshgh" -  BUT ESHGH IS UNIQUELY MISSING IN QURAN.

And the reason was explained to you. The word 'ishq specifically denotes love in its erotic sense. Like classical Greek which also has several words conveying the same emotion (i.e. philia, agape, eros storge), the Arabic language likewise is specific as to the modality of a given emotion it is expressing with a given word where each  individual word expresses the specific degree of that thing or emotion in the different word. That is why 'ishq as a word in a scriptural context such as the Qur'an is completely inappropriate linguistic usage whereas hubb, wudd and raghaba are appropriate. Do you get it now?

 //iranian.com/main/blog/q/myth-islam-spread-swordpage5

Q

Welcome back. Where were you? Ah, busy cyber investigating?!! Well. you shouldn't be so angrily protesting when someone remembers you so fondly LOL even 2 months later. By the way, I have already alerted your new teacher and Wikischolar, Azali, so he can share his usual copy and pasted mumbo jumbo on this site but as you know he is a little too shy and needs some persuasion - perhaps you can use your charm here!!!

Funny enough and despite your miniscule Wiki-savaad you are right: Arash got the point where you and your Wiki-friend failed to grasp - "There are many words for love in Arabic besides Eshgh" -  BUT ESHGH IS UNIQUELY MISSING IN QURAN. Can anyone say why? Don't rush Q you won't find the answer in Wikipedia LOL. 

clue: No other word for Love in Arabic has the same meaning as Eshgh and this is precisely why it is missing. Now go Google Q and see if you can find it (ROFL).  

good one hooshie! whatever you need to tell yourself...

is fine with me.

Your pointless nonsquitor and hate-driven waste of time was on page 5 of the comments you generously linked. I responded to it on page 4 of the comments.

How fragile your ego must be to harbor such laughable bold faced! "herse joosh" 2 months later. You really need to learn to live with the truth and not lash out on those who correct your limited knowledge (at least 3 or 4 of us did that, as Arash did again just now). So much for whatever lame-ass 'challenge' you think the rest of the world gives a rat's behind about.

Don't be funny. I wouldn't "alert" anyone about something so pointless.

Abnabt: there are many words for love in Arabic, besides "Eshgh"

You can use the link at the bottom of this blog to search for the "wrath of god" or any other negative phrases in Koran. Try it, and what you find is offset by the positive edicts, by an order of magnitude.

It is an old collection of verses, which few read and fewer understand, but has unfortunately turned into an instrument of suppression and terror. We should try and take it back to its humanitarian roots.

VP of K: branches of the same tree

Most Iranians are Muslims, but even most of those who aren't, share many of the common features of a monotheistic faith in a god, who cares about people and teaches them to do good and avoid evil.

We Muslims should shed light and emphasize the benevolent features of our faith, and take it back from the intolerant, the aggressor and the terrorist.

Work Love does not exist in qoran

Please let us know where you have got all those "love" words. They cannot be from qoran since the word love is never mentioned there. Besides, tell me how many times you see "wrath of god" in qoran. It seems like there is a certain attempt to humanize these outdated and full of hate and revenge and scientifically erroneous versus.

Re: taking back our faith

What is "our faith"? People have different beleifs. You have your faith; others have theirs. Some people have no faith. See the problem with "our" here is the you assume that there is or would be an agreement on faith. Unfortunately the only agreement comes by force. When you let people loose they diverge.

In practice "search for truth" has not made lives of people better. It has made it worse. 

When you have religions which keep talking of who "God does not love" ... people do not become happy. It becomes about obedience not happiness.

I'm not much into religion

so, everything I know about love I learnt from listening to this song.  

Inherit the Wind

Okay, I really looked hard to find that classic movie. I beleive it was this one" Inherit the Wind" cast by Spenser Tracy. Here's are few links:

//www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title.jsp?stid=16639&cate...

//www.buzzflash.com/store/items/399

taking back our faith

No problem debating our various Iranian faiths here, including the Baha'i. It is part of our soul searching for a "better" truth, which can hopefully make our lives better, some time in the future.

The priest won at the end :)

But just for the sake of an "American movie" :)

For me, that was a win win debate! It was a very great movie. Pity I can't find the name.

Both of you, have great and solid opinions. Thanks for the debate.

در قرآن کلام عشق نیست

Back in late December last year, I challeneged any one who could cite a single occurance of the word Eshgh (Eshq) in the Quran. The challenge was posed in a blog by the Islamic regime's self-employed apologist and Wikiintellectual - yes you are right I mean - Q (//iranian.com/main/blog/q/myth-islam-spre...) fondly referred to as PinoQ . As the subject was too much for our Wikiintellectual to fathom (it is not covered in Wikipedia) he remained silent on the issue. Until we were joined by the Googlologist, expert copy-and-paste specialist, and self-appointed head of a man-dar-avordi sufi order, yes Nuri-e-azal, affectionately known as Azali.

Azali did his best to meet the challenge but miserably failed. He copied and pasted many verses from the Quran that contained many other types of words for different types of Love but not a single record of the word Eshgh. 

I am disaapointed but not suprised that Azali has not appeared on this blong. Perhaps his side-kick, Q, has not alerted him to it but he may do it now. If so, we are all in for a good laugh. Come on Q get you act together and do something.

In the meantime my challenge remains unmet.

This debate

1) Was supposed to be about Love in Quoran. I asked some questions never got any responses.
2) Unfortunately got turned into a Baha'i debate. Faryam: if you don't want to hijack the blog then please don't! You cannot say you don't want to hijack it then go ahead and do it anyway.
3) Souri the movie is "Inherit the Wind"; there are several versions and yes Faryam you are the priest! We know how that turned out.
4) I don't want to turn this into a debate about Einstein either. My point is that it does not matter whether he was religious or not: that is not the point of this debate.

I think some of you are too harsh on Arash

You guys seem to have no problem reading garbage stuff on this website and all come out trumps. Arash is making his views as intelligently as he can. There is no need to shoot him down, just because the mullahs stuffed up Iran.

Let me ask you this simple question. Have you just heard that the Mullahs have been stuffing Iran for the last 30 years? So, where were you during these times?

Don't blame Arabs or Islam for your woes. Iranians are directly responsible for what is happening in Iran. Blaming others is a cop out.

I have a very close friend in Iran. He is doctor, graduated in France in 1970's. After the revolution and the mayhem that ensued, he did not leave Iran like most of his colleagues. He could have easily gone to Paris, got a job and forgotten about the mess in Iran.

No disrespect to those who chose to leave Iran but stop criticising the mess that the family is in, especially if you were the elder and the capable son that left the family during the time of its need.

Up until today Dr. Reza ( his real name) practices in Iran for a pittance and often does not charge those who can not afford to pay him. Here is a man who serves his country and utterly dislikes the ruling mullas BUT prays, fasts and lives life to the full.

Lets go beat up on Arabs and Muslims since freaks do exist and dr. reza is an exception rather than the norm.

Live and let live. Love all. Respect all. Judge them by their fruit.

As for having an inlligent discussion like: Does God exist? Then that is very interesting and let us keep the debate to this question.

Answer: I don't know. All my letters are returned back marked: Address unknown. Perhaps I will send them to God via Hell as opposed to Heaven. Didn't he create Hell too. May be He lives there just to escape some silly prayers during Friday sermons.

Salamati to ALL.

Ahmed from Bahrain

Dear Arash

Dear Arash

Please forgive what seems;  to me having hijacked yor blog and the subject of Love in The Holy Quran.

I hope the discussions will in the end be helpful to better understanding of the subject, as I believe that love is very essence and purpose of religious belief; without it, it is not a religion.

Souri jaan

I hope i am not the "priest"..

:)

Jamshid

The analogy of the Sun, although physical is till the closest one can be used as an analogy to represent the spiritual , as the Sun has always been used in literature as a Spiritual symbol; as something that we can neither look at nor explore, unless anytime you foresee us landing on the Sun or one day develop anything that can bear the power and the heat of the Sun. 

If one is honest, one will see the point being made. 

We can go on and on..

I quoted Einstein because that single statement expressed how I feel. nothing more; we are all free to form our own conclusions about God ad religion.

However,Let us get to the heart of the matter; in the end, the proof of the authenticity of anything is its effect and result.

If love is the answer to all the unhappiness in the world, What and Who is the source of love? 

What has in  time immemorial been the most powerful force and the agent of change in people's hearts in human society? Good or bad.

I believe that that force has been Religion; not the dogma, ritual and superstition we know as religion today, but a source and cause of love that in this age has bound people of all races and religions.

No other power in the universe has proven to have the potency to transform and bind people together..of course the opposite has also been true, as in the case of those who have used its power to divide and cause hatred.

I am not interested in any kind of promotion here, except to give the example of how again, Iran has again given birth to a new spiritual force,( that has mysteriously and against all odds survived and spread beyond its borders) with a vision that can only have been in Divine in origin , being able to foresee over 150 years ago , the needs, the challenges and the institutions that humanity will need to live in prosperity and peace of a global society; the kind of challenges that are currently causing a havoc in the world  today, because governments and leaders either lack the inspiration or are simply themselves overwhelmed and helpless to know where to start.

To the properly informed on the subject, this is potentially the only proof needed to prove that we  are indeed not alone; that there is a definite pattern of Divine guidance that is ready to address the root causes of all the trouble in the world; one that effects our daily lives, whether we live in Tehran, Bangkok, New Delhi, New York or Beijing.

Were it not for such knowledge, what or who do we have to turn to?

Our politicians? The Media? our religious leaders? Who? 

I would be happy to discuss the reasons for such bold assertion and provide written historical proofs as examples of how within the last 150 years Divine Knowledge has provided us with answers for the kind of world we would like our children to live in; one that is free of prejudice and hatred, one that will not be brought about by any kind of political solution.

Such is the ultimate proof and the answer to all these arguments about God and religion in general; that is of course if one is able to put away preconceived ideas about God and religion and discuss matters with honesty.

Soul Mind and Spirit...

What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul? Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit. The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences. The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished. The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished 209 and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets. But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun. This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.   from  

Some Answered Questions

//reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-55.html 

Love and beauty in humanity

music culture and art 

//www.scribd.com/doc/18443934/AlAndalus-The-W...

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_...

Jamshid and Faryar

Thank you. That was a good debate between the two of you. It reminded me of a very old movie (with James Stuart I think?)

A debate between a lawyer and a priest.........

Good movie, but I can't remember its name.

Veiled Prophet

You are wrong about Einstein. He was not a religious man. Read the quotes I provided and let me know if you need additional quotes. Some religious people (and I am not referring to Faryam, as I strongly respect his type of religious people) have no problems with lying in the name of god!

Theists have digged into Einstein work and writings, looked under every stone, and found one or two quotes that in their views "proves" Einstein was religious. They did this while completely ignoring all of his plainly visible actual quotes that states otherwise.

Faryam, your Einstein quote...

You quoted Albert Enistein to give additional credit to theist views. But here is another quote from Einstein. Please read it carefully and tell me if you still think Einstein believed in god:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

Here is another quote from Einstein:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

You wrote, "the Tree in nature that let's say"thinks" its roots  can grow, flourish, blossom and bear fruit just upon the physical nourishment of the earth and the soil alone, without the warmth and the energy provided by the rays of the SUN."

Your analogy is poorly chosen. In the above, you are relating the earth to the physical world, and the sun to the spiritual world. However, just like the earth, the sun itself is also a physical object. The tree needs nourishments from both the earth and the sun, two purely physical, non-spiritual objects

You cannot use "nature" as a way to prove your god. Nature's both kindness and cruelty to living beings, and its indifference and its concern for living beings, only proves that either god does not exist, or if it exists, it is neither a good nor an evil god, and it must be way beyond and above religious people's limited fantasies.

Faryam

"In my opinion the human mind is a separate entity* from the human soul"

We know what the mind is, it is the workings of our brains. But could you describe what the soul is? What is it made of? In what "realm" does it exist? Which of the human senses can sense it?

You probably believe that the soul belongs to a higher realm which we cannot comprehend. If you cannot explain nor comprehend it, then how can you believe in it?

You wrote, "Upon our demise, our physical death, it is our non physical essence that lives on to the next "destination" the higher realm"

I am interested to find out how do you know so much about what will happen after our deaths? Have you been there before? Have you had a discussion with god over a cup of tea? How do you know with such certainty? What proof do you have besides the workings of your imagination?

You wrote, "how do i know with such certainty? I believe that every person has the ability to acquire his/her spiritual senses; for himslef; that  it is through such development where the animal instinct in us is tamed with human qualities of love, tolerance, selflessness etc"

Again, what and where are those spiritual "senses"? Are you referring to our brains' activities? If so, that's just the physical brain's workings. If not, then what are you referring to?

What is the difference between your view of these "senses" and those who claim they can sense jen va pari?

Religion & Science; 2 wings on which man's intelligence can soar

I dont believe in any kind of superstition..

I believe the harmony of science and religion. This principle states "that truth is one, and therefore true science and true religion must be in harmony, rejecting the view that science and religion are in conflict. `Abdu'l-Bahá, asserted that science and religion cannot be opposed because they are aspects of the same truth; he also affirmed that reasoning powers are required to understand the truths of religion. 

The Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, described science and religion as "the two most potent forces in human life", that whenever conflict arises between religion and science it is due to human error; either through misinterpretation of religious scriptures or the lack of a more complete understanding of science. `Abdu'l-Bahá explained that religious teachings which are at variance with science should not be accepted; he explained that religion has to be reasonable since God endowed humankind with reason so that they can discover truth.[3] Science and religion, in the Bahá'í writings, are compared to the two wings of a bird upon which a person's intelligence can increase, and upon which a person's soul can progress. Furthermore, the Bahá'í writings state that science without religion would lead to a person becoming totally materialistic, and religion without science would lead to a person falling into superstitious practices. `Abdu'l-Bahá in one of his public talks said:

"If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism. All religions of the present day have fallen into superstitious practices, out of harmony alike with the true principles of the teaching they represent and with the scientific discoveries of the time."[9]

The Bahá'í writings state that religion must always stand the analysis of reason, and agree with scientific statements of fact. Another teaching of the Bahá'í Faith, Independent investigation of truth, also uses the harmony of science and religion by stating that each individual should free themselves from all prejudices from learned belief, and then individually search for the truth."

3 levels of separation

There are three levels of separation between Koran (the message) and us (its Iranian people). One is through Mohammad, who started as a peaceful prophet and ended like a bloody tyrant. Two is the early Muslim Caliphs who used Islam as an instrument of state, and three is the horrible sect of Shiaism.

Mohammad sold his instinctively peaceful message, to the demons of war and murder, in order to "succeed". The Muslim leaders after him butchered the message and even almost took Mohammad to the level of god, by equating his work and manners (the Sunnite) with Koran. Finally, the maniacal Shia clergy turned Islam into an idiotic and apocalyptic sect.

See the book 23 years by Prof. Dashti.

به ملا حسنی

 ميگن نظرت راجع به گل چيه ؟ ميگه همان بس که در گرآن ( قرآن ) آمده "گل هو الله احد"

Albert Einstein

In the words of Albert Einstein: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man"

Albert Einstein never believed in Quantum Mechanics. He said "God does not play dice" and refused to believe in the single most successful theory in modern physics. His religion closed his mind so badly that he was unable to accept science. Proof that even a brilliant mind can be brought down by the chains of superstition. 

Look Faryam I don't care what kind of title or accomplishment a man has. He can still be fooled or even worse to fool himself like Einstein did. He stubbornly refused to accept the most successful theory of physics. Thus he stuck his head in the sand. 

I am not discussing the existance of God; that is not the point of my discussion. I do say that religious supsestition has brought down many a great man.