Ari Siletz

Ari, Iran along with China, India, and Greece & Italy

form what are true nation states. Those with consistent historic continuity. You can argue for a few other countries or cultures as well. But the concept of nation state in its modern sense applies to palestine as much as it does to isreal and in political/religious sense more than cultural. Eastern European or Maronite jews are different than askenazi in 'cultural' sense.

They both have long biblical histories. Periodically have had some power and domination but neither has been a consistent persistent culture with attributes you are asking. The first sense of a nationhood was when Philistine...Hebron... (P-r-s-t, among
others) became subjects of a formal structured empir (persian empire around 500 B.C.).

I'm digitizing here, but my point is once you put a border around Palestine, it will be a relatively non-descript Arab state. More or less like Israel but not as flavorful (my opinion) for a slew of reasons including cultural flavor that is the product of a worldwide immigrant population with a distinct western influence, not much specific to the land known as israel/palestine.

OKtaby

Ari, their experience is not like ours

For one thing, we weren't ruled by Turks until 90 years ago. 

 
But whoever they are- the Palestinians, is their concern.   We Iranians have other things to worry about.  I must admit, it would be nice if, once in a while, to hear a Palestinian sympathize with what brutality we live under in Iran.   

pas-e-pardeh, taking it a notch further

2.What systems of music comparable to our dastgahs do the Palestinians have that are distinctly identified as Palestinian?

3. Which classical poets of the region are claimed by modern Palestinians to still speak for their nation?

4. What old ceremonies similar to our Nowrooz do Palestinians celebrate that connects them with the Palestinian region specifically.

By these questions I wish to know if the concept of "nation" as experienced by Palestinians is the same as how it is experienced by we Iranians. Because if their experience is like ours, as in it's only partly about political self determination, land ownership, etc but also about preserving and continuing a strong and distinct cultural identity native to the region, then matters are even more complicated than I imagined.

Iranians and Pride in their hometown-boy-done-well argument

At best, it's tenuous.  

We forgot Mazdak & Mani.  Baha-o-lla is more appreciated outside Iran than in.  

 
We can forget even bigger figures: like Dariush forgetting to mention Cyrus.  Or, Shahpur I carving a relied at the foot of tombs of hakhamaneshian, and not even know who these great kings were.  

Yes, we can forget, as randomly as a coint toss, whom we should stomp on and whom we should lift up on our shoulders.  

C'mon Ari .. at least a time window over 3,000 years?

If you mean modern Palestine, then I agree with Oktaby: Edward Said

Ari, good question. I'm not sure if there is an assumed

or expected cultural mindset. I do not believe they have an identity older than the conflict beyond that of regional arabs and islam. They are defined by this conflict, for the world and in their own mind, in my opinion. I know some palestinians and can't point to a significant identifier beyond what I mentioned. That they have never claimed jesus as their own is indicative. I agree with your assessment of ES as an Iranian.

The statehood will mostly resolve the fundamental sense of injustice for palestinians and some recovery from the post war loss sense of anger & frustration for arab world at large, which is quite strong. That is what IRR tried to tap into when it picked up the palestinian 'cause', much like saddam did. In both cases it has been successful in terms of popularity & political support in arab street.Picking that cause in arab world equals standing up to American imperialsm & zionism regardless of the motives; mor AN.

All of this in the backdrop of global shifts and gradual morphing of nation states into economic zones of interest and influence. Oddly, without IRR, Iran will have had closer economic and cultural ties with the Arab world, and essentially less antagonistic.

OKtaby

Thanks HG

And just for some humor, here's international master Kamaran Shirazi (2410)  vs. John Peters (2383) chess columnist for the LA Times in the shortest game in the history of US Championship:

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.axb4?? Qe5+ 0-1.

Alternative to Edward Said

Back to the Palestinian state issue. In the process of fashioning a Palestinian state, what cultural mindset is assumed for the Palestinians? Do they really define themselves in terms of historical biographies and events that climaxed after 1948? I know Iranians would reisist that if they were in the same situation. The Edward Said over JC 'stats" suggests maybe Palestinians are OK with it, but I really don't have the answer, though I think it is crucial to know it before settling the borders. (by the way, as you may know Bethlehem, JC's birthtown is now governed by the Palestinian National Authority)

Edward Said

OKtaby

ari: variation 2

this alternative to the modification (effective fork) i offered saves the rook and sacrifices the queen.  may be a better solution than previous variation. 

modification: wb (from e3) – b4

(1)bkn - b3 check, (2)wk - b2, (3)bkn x wq check, (4)wr x bkn, (5) bq x wr, (6)wb x bq, (7) br (f8) - e8 … white’s pieces left: 1 rook, 2 white bishops, 7 pawns black’s pieces left: 2 rooks, 5 pawns

Oktaby, a side game

Name the Palestinian who has had the most influence on world history (feel free to consult Palestinian sources including friends).

Ari, that move is statehood for palestinians. 67 borders

partial right of return. It will defang and debase radicals on all sides. But it does not suite extreme capital and current world order.That's why I mentioned the limitations of a chess analogy.

OKtaby

Hats off Aynak. Worth a lot more than 2 cents

I thought I tried that move mentally, but must have missed it.

Ari, unintented trick question got most but not all  :)

Good news: people win.

Cheers

OKtaby

Aynak: excellent move here and correct analysis

"

Regardless of if it is Ghaza or Tehran, we defend human rights, we defend human rights unequivocally because that is the only defendable moral position.  And that is the truth.

BTW. who can't see the parallels between the murder of protesters and the following week Islamic Regime claiming Basijis have been injured!  and the Israeli soldiers supposedly getting injured, while 9 people have been murdered?    Basijis are as much a victim as the Israeli soldiers"

Mehrdad

aynak

my 2 cents

1......    N-B3 (Check)

2 K-N1      NXQ (check)

3 RXN      QXP

White loses (2bishop+1 pawn < Queen)  with open file for both BR and BQ

There is no sacrifice here, a knight is exchanged for a Q.   No brainer.

+++++++++++

Regardless of if it is Ghaza or Tehran, we defend human rights, we defend human rights unequivocally because that is the only defendable moral position.  And that is the truth.

BTW. who can't see the parallels between the murder of protesters and the following week Islamic Regime claiming Basijis have been injured!  and the Israeli soldiers supposedly getting injured, while 9 people have been murdered?    Basijis are as much a victim as the Israeli soldiers. 

ari

i had to think about this since i don't even have a chess board.  there are just so many moves i can make in my head.  if i've done it right, here's the minimum move to make an effective fork.

i think that you can achieve that by changing the position of only one piece: moving white’s black bishop from e3 to b4, then a massacre will follow with slight edge to white (only if white can take quick advantage):

modification: wb (from e3) – b4

(1)bkn - b3 check, (2)wk - b2, (3)bkn x wq check, (4)wr x bkn, (5)bq - c7, (6)wp x br, (7)br x wp, (8)wb x br, (9)bk x wb

…

white’s pieces left: 2 rooks, white bishop, 6 pawns

black’s pieces left: queen, 5 pawns

white's initial endowment may be too much to overcome even with the seeming blunder of forcing the fork.  without the blunder, white would win in less than 10 moves (i think).

hamsade, all good point, specially the last one...

Black in in deep doodoo anyway. I would prefer a knight and rook over 2 rooks that in this condition with 2 w bishops won't accomplish much in a war of attrition. Taking out the white pawn in subsequent likely moves will also be easy and eliminate risk of another queen which would be a death knell. Taking out w queen makes the game more manageable to play to a draw. Playing to win in this scenario takes some great moves and several mistakes by white which does not seem to be the history of the game so far.

OKtaby

Good analsyis HG

Lesson learned

Don't play against Hamsade Ghadimi unless you are willing to lose and learn ;)

oktaby

in chess, one always makes their best move (when it's apparent).  in this case, it's apparent.  with the overwhelming edge that white had (before the pawn move), one can speculate that white is a better chess player and had a brain fart in his pawn move.  therefore, i would think that it's more likely for black to make a mistake than white as the game proceeds.  white's silly move was a gift and should be taken advantage of immediately. 

if black queen takes white queen on the next move, white can easily win (without further brain farts): bqxwq, wbxbq --> white ends up with two rooks and two strong bishops, black will have two rooks and a weak knight (although, black knight can still check and swap knight for bishop giving white only a bishop advantage). note: in the endgame in chess, bishop is stronger than knight as there are more free spaces and bishop is deemed as a pseudo-rook (slightly less value than rook).

at any rate, there's no fork here.  white offers a dagger to black, and black should take the dagger and go for the kill with only sacrificing a weak knight. :)

bqxwq, long term rook sacrifice is the price

and wait for the opposition to make more mistakes. The analogy can only go so far given the # of possible permutations.

hamsade, the other two options could deteriorate quickly but again depends on the opposition.

OKtaby

rescue both

keep the rook (na ghazzeh, na lobnan, jaanam fadaaye' Iran), and use the Queen out of protest against Israel.

I don't feel we have a "political" alliance with Palestinians.  Notice how the Palestinians weren't outraged when Iranians were being savaged by IRI?  

So, this board may not accurately represent our choices. 

btw ari, for the white pawn

btw ari, for the white pawn to create a real fork, it needs to be protected.  in your scenario, queen can simply take away the white pawn (bqxwp, if wqxbkn, then bqxwb); although, it's not the best move.

I'll keep the Rook,Use an Armenian Diversion &save the queen ;0)

Check Mate In Three Steps:

1) PUTTIN' ON THE RITZ: Why I won't Sign a Petition or Demonstrate Against Bad Bad Israel ...

2) HISTORY FORUM: Turkey and the Armenian Genocide - 'The Betrayed' (BBC Documentary)

3) La Princesse Noor D'Iran: Un Coeur à Prendre by Darius KADIVAR

It's called ... The Persian Loop !

More commonly Known as ... A RESTORATION :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVcOBHLDyE

LOL

Q

Ari, I'm not a player,

but I understand analogies. Yours says there is some kind of "either / or" situation between supporting Gaza activists and supporting Iranian activists. Why is that so? Who does it benefit for some of us to be so convinced of this "fork" which I believe to be only an illusion? Why cede that ground to Ahmadinejad?

I don't think there is a debate about this inside Iran, only among those who have one or both legs in the West. Think about why. That's where the pro-Israel propaganda operates the strongest. I have seen and read dozens of Green activists on the Internet who are fully supportive of the Gaza peace workers and have condemned Israel. It is a sign of the movements integrity.

oktaby, last white move

That's the move, HG

To  me the knight represents solutions to the Gaza dilemma that we haven't thought of yet because we are so focused on the fork. A common creative blindness in politics as well. The kind of leader who can look beyond the obvious and use world events to the advantage of our cause of freedom, is what Iran badly needs right now.  Should such a person show up, I will personally sew him/her a leather apron. 

sacrifice black knight for white queen and white pawn

bkn-b3 check

wk –b1

bkn x wq check

wr x bn

bq x wp

...

question: what does the black knight represent?