IDEAS

Ari, I was actually thinking inflection points in recent

history say last few millenia, where the very thinking and worldview was changed/modified. Granted, just about every major event can technically qualify but lets focus on XL only (oh yes, even that could be a can of worms) for example the very point of view of all monotheistic religions and how they have essentially created the plunder because god gave you earth mindset.

Aynak, Nazi's created the world's most sophisticated weaponry, technology, medicine and just about everything else. That did not make them any more wise or human. They were idiots. One could argue that idiocy was in the ideology, in gene pool, in force of events or as specific as a moronic attack on Russia and not backing down. Bazargan, is an idiot in that sense. The fact that he was a great engineer is irrelevant. VPK's point is quite valid. His loyalty and religious conviction had preference over his country. That makes him a traitor and without roots in my book. He also showed he had no backbone. Just look at him almost fall to khomeini's feet to lick it when he was being 'appointed'. 

OKtaby

How Esther pulled it off

It seems the Time Dagger by itself isnt' enough; the user has to be very clever in using it. So clever in fact that possessing the dagger is moot.  Queen Farah didn't need a dagger either, just more wiles.

Aynak

1) I was joking about Hashim since you called my Mughanna. People refer to me as VPK on IC.

2) I know people who took classes from Bazargan. He would try to prove God based on thermodynamics. The man was not going rational. He allowed religion to cloud his judgement. Harpi-Eagle showed other problems with Bazargan and the huge damage he did to Iran. 

In addition Bazargan's resigned when he should have resisted. The man was the PM. He should have confronted Khomeini not ran away. He should have stood up to the hostage takers; ordered the security services to free the hostages. But he was a follower of Khomeini. He bowed to his master and quietly turned Iran over to a demon. That is treason in my book. His responsibility was to Iran not to Islam. And not at all to Khomeini.

Do you remember when JFK ran for office in US he was asked whether his loyalty was to the Pope or the America. He was clear his was to America. Bazargan's loyalty was to the Imam or his marja taglid not to his nation. That is why he was a traitor. I did not call him that without reason. I said it and I stand by my statement. He and his ilk are an embarassment to the Iranian people.

His son is even worse than him. I suggest you watch some of his youtube videos. He spreads the most stupid propaganda against the Sassanids. I only imagine that he took after his father. A shameful family all around father to son and on.

VPK 

Re: Aynak ...

Aynak,

Perhaps calling Mehdi Bazargan a moron or a traitor is a little going overboard.  But you can not deny that what Bazargan and later Ali Shariati did in their naivette and susceptibility to the Tazi Cult, did our nation a great dis-service.  I don't know about all the behind the scenes events, but wouldn't be surprised to find out it was Bazargan who encouraged Dr. Mosadegh to trust and colloborate with Ayatollah Kashani which in the end turned out to be a major factor in his undoing and ultimate demise.  Bottom line is the clergy of any religion and above all the Shiate sect can not and should not be trusted.  A prime example of the diabolical nature of the Shiate clergy is the fact that Kashani sold Iran to the interests of BP for several payments of 10,000 Pounds Sterling in 1954, this is well documented in the book (All the Shah's Men). 

So Bazargan and to a bigger extent Ali Shariati and later, the Murderer (Ebrahim Yazdi), did a great dis-service by painting a rosey picture of the "Utopian" society that Isalm was supposed to bring to our country.  They are all successors to that uber-traitor Salman Farsi who sold us to the Tazi Cult 1400 years ago.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland

Two thoughts

First, I am not a TV watcher, but if I were, I think I would much rather watch "Oracle" than "Persian Version."  Can someone please go back and change the producers' minds? :)

Second, I must confess some bias toward Hamsade's suggestion (what can I say, I like queens of Persia :).  Actually, in answer to Ari's earlier "core question" of how to get someone to believe you and change the future to save your people, the historical Queen Esther (as a woman and as a minority, I might add) did just that.  So perhaps I would go back to that lifetime, ask her how she did it, and report back.  And then perhaps more modern-day queens of Persia (or others) could save more modern-day peoples ... .

fallacy - Mullahs have >9 lives, so need more daggers / trial

.

Changing the future, playing with fire but..

Two things that is respectable Hashim, about any human

in my view:

1-If they do the best they can professionally

2-If they have ideals and can be true to them without being dogmatic.

Bazargan is a shining example in both.   Bazargan is the person that architected one of the most important water project in Iran (the city of Tehran, in Fatemi street), which  provides water for several million people today.     You can ask any engineer familiar with the challenges, scoping of the work, expansion etc.    So if he was an idiot, as an engineer I would love to be an idiot like him.

Bazargan also stepped down as soon as his principles were about to be compromised.  Power was not his aim, good governance was.  That's why he sponsored  a constituion that spelled out separation of clerics from government -- drafted by Amir Entezam--.

Again, if a fraction of people in charge in Iran, had his integrity and professionalism we would not be in the mess we are now.

I am not familiar with his son, but as for the Mehdi Bazargan, dismissing a person like him as "idiot" may stem only from anger not logic or rational reasoning.    The discussion here, revolved around having a magical dagger to take you back in time and make a difference.   Some, naively, wanted to go back and tell shah or his relatives about what is ahead.    I tried to show there was no need for such time travel.   A respected engineer tried to warn Shah, in the 60's, and Shah did not pay attention.   (i.e time travel for this purpose would have been a waste of time, based on documented facts).

I am not sure if you have heard the name Nouri-Zad.   But he is telling Khamanee today, the same type of thing that Shah was told in the late 1950's and 1960's.  (I certainly hope Khamanee would not last that long though).

Of course our leaders must lack in Intelligence to repeat the same mistake over and over again.   To make the same mistake over and over again is a sign of lack of comprehension not arrogance and that is the trade mark of most Iranian leaders.  If you are good, you can afford to be arrogant too. In that case, Mossadegh does not fit the bill by any stretch of imagination, unless you can factually prove it.    But we are all entitled to our opinion.

Thanks Ari. In a world where changes were made

already, that put Iran on a less tumultuous path; lets call it 'normal' and we had to conted with a normal dictatorship or god forbid a democracy, I could think of a lot more fun things to tinker with given the Dagger of time. From girls to soccer matches to grades and choice of careers. But cest la vie.

Now let me pose one: What would you do with the dagger, about the environment and changing the lifestyle that has us on the course we are now?

OKtaby

Abarmard

there are  theories which say that if you go back you simply spawn off a new thread. There may be infinite realities:

• One where Alexander did not win.
• One where Sassanids did not fall.
• One where Mossadegh won.

If you go back and "change" things you either make a new thread. Or you end up in a different reality. Who knows? Time travel is not at all understood. It is great for fantasy but for now an impossibility. In other words: don't worry about the real implications!!

If you could go back

no one would have the power to change the giant forces that take an event further. It is almost impossible to change events for what we could consider "better". Not to mention that even today many of our knowledge about the events are distorted. It's a harsh responsibility that should be left alone.

Look ahead, straight, proud and know that what we have done as a nation has given us a roadmap for the future. 

Aynak

Why so formal; call me Hashim! 

The problem with our leaders is not low IQ; it is high ego.

Mosaadegh; Shah; Reza Shah all had egos that were too big for them. That wrecked them. Khamenei is following the same path. Of course it will be great to see him fall. That for once will be a good thing. 

Bazargan in my opinion was a real moron and a traitor from day one. He put Islam and his convoluted khorafat above Iran. At least Shah; Mossadegh and Reza Shah were real Iranians. Bazargan was and idiot and a traitor. How dare he lecture the shah about "us". He did nothing but follow bigger men: Mossadegh and then Khomeini. Never able to stand on his own feet. Now his son is running around in Beverly Hills trashing Iran. He bad mouths our pre Islamic civilization. What a jerk.

Enough of my rambling for now.

Thank you for your support.

VPK 

summer or 72

Ari, I listed the events. As for how...

I would use various relatively high powered relatives at the time and one or two very influential ones and start by influencing them and talking about the calamity that is coming (assuming I have lucid memories and insight-did not see PoP yet). I would go thru my dad and mom to influence them to influence the relatives; and then work the team of young (see my blog of summer of 72) rebels and revolutionaries to spread the message. In practical terms and given my age at that future past time, that's all I could do.

OKtaby

Al Mughanna (Veiled Prophet of Khorasan)

As you said:   "I don't hink Rostam meant to kill his son".     So here I thought, if I had an imaginery dagger of time, what portion of our history (real or imagined) would I be able to change?

Since I know enough about physics to know travelling back in time if possible, would allow me to travel to any point back, this would have been my choice, where my action could have made real impact.

As for Shah etc, the writing was on the wall.   If that wasn't enough I would refer the reader to Bazargan's historic speech to shah back in the 60's to the effect that "we are the last generation that would attempt to change things peacefully".

But even more recently, Khamanee.   Do you think enough people have not written to him warning about what he is doing to our people and country?   Does he need someone come from a time machine to tell him the obvious?

Our leaders (with very few exception) have/had enjoyed low IQ's as evident by them never learning from the past.   They were/are mostly idiots with illusions of grandness, which  ultimately caused their down fall.   So I doubt there is anything I could ever do, even travel back in time to set them straight.

The story of Rostam and Sohrab though is a painful one.   So many times I thought, what if someone in the Persian army had known and told Rostam.   (Apparently the king Kavous did know but did not want to let Rostam know, and so did the touranians).

The impact of this alteration in Shahnameh though can be immense :)

.........

As I see some here few commeted in swedish,the other day few in chek,some in french,some in italian or spanish and I'm sure there are many other Idioms on this planet that Iranians were Immigrated to (thanks to exodus of arab mullahs!! ).

how about all Iranian go back to home inmass and every body start talking their newly learned language...

that sure  make all mullahs go CRAZY.       

we've Iranian in all the corners of the globe.   Maziar

Persians are BLACK!

//www.imdb.com/title/tt0473075/board/thread/164200526o-Iranian Propaganda!!!

//www.imdb.com/title/tt0473075/board/thread/164054810

ari

i think my initial answer resolves the conflicts that you presented: farah would not only lose a child for having gone back but stands to save the child that took her life.  she would not have been in risk of assassination as she would be protected by the shah.  she would have been able to convince him of her clairvoyance by predicting events that are only known to them (including his cancer).  in addition to her child, she would stand to win hers and her family's dignity, and finally the iranian people's dignity.  in that order of importance!

Re: Core Question and Criticism ...

Ari,

First regarding the core question.  Ofcourse this whole subject is for entertainment only, and fictional, but if I could really do it like in Prince of Persia, I would really study the events of the period I am travelling back to and then by predicting some of the specific events exactly as they are supposed to happen, I would gain the trust of the person in question (Mohammad Reza Shah in this case).  Once I'd have his trust, I would then propose the plan I mentioned about June 6th (15 Khordad).

Regarding the question of vanishing from one place and the imbalance that would cause in the mass/energy conservation theory, I'd like to point out that the Time Space Continume that Einstein mentioned is truly an all encompassing environ that contains the entire universe and therefore you would not really vanish completely but simply change your Time/Space coordinates.  Furthermore, many of the more modern Physicists now believe in many parallel universes.  Now if one wants to really consider the physics of going through a Warm Hole or Black Hole in order to manipulate time, I really don't think this would be possible at least not within the constraints of a material body.  In other words what I'm trying to say  is that "Going through warm holes or black holes can be hazardous to your health !". 

It is defintely a very entertaing subject to ponder though, thank you for the brain exercise.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland

Good video, some criticism.

The dagger in Prince of Persia is magic indeed, but cleverly avoids the obvious violations of physical laws by simply transporting information from the future. Even though the dagger holder does experience future events, when he comes back to the past everything is the same (all conservation laws followed) except he has a memory of the "experience" subjectively, no different than a very vivid dream.  Whether information can be transported from the future without violating physical laws is a matter for deeper discussion. 

Ari Siletz Jaan the answers are all in the documentary ...

I posted below ...

World's First Time Machine  

You should take a look. It's really well done and exposes the dilemmas you have mentioned in regard to Time Travel ...

Preventing erteja'

Ari, I like the premise you made to travel back only the length

of one's life? That makes this scenario play more manageable, including one's kid's vanishing and all (or spouse- potentially positive depending on many variable :)

I think the presumption should be that we want to pre-empt the erteja' that landed on us in 79 via corrective measures. I also think the influence should be practical and pragmatic once one has landed in the specific past. As in, I should be able to do something, know someone who can influence an event or process.

OKtaby

I'd tell Clinton not 2 have sexual relations w/ that woman Ms L!

Everything is sacred.

Harpi-Eagle, core question

Time Dagger warning label

June 6th (15 Khordad) ...

I would go back to 15 Khrdad 1342 and tell Shah, this is a golden opportunity to rid the nation of the "Erteja'e Siah" (The Religious Conspiracy) once and for all.  I would tell him to shift his focus from the "Reds" to the "Blacks" and "Liquidate" any and all major players of that club.  But then again, if we as a nation did not have this temporary sickness, perhaps we would never recognize the true evil nature of Islam, the way we learned it in the last 31 years.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland 

Aynak

Very interesting point! I don't think Rostam meant to kill his son. But your point is very valid. The king was indeed worthless and loyalty misplaced. We need go past rulers. Not VF; not king not religion. People rule people. The rule of man and woman. Not rule of king or God or mullah. Rules made by people; flawed but subject to change. Not rules made up by people and sold as "word of God". No more loyalty to fake a**holes who suck our blood.

jhone lager

Jag älskar Steig Larsson böcker. Synd han dog.

jhone lager

ett broder, skriva på engelska så att alla kan förstå. viva Sverige.