bajenaghe naghi

Asteroidx

You're confusing issues and moralizing and sentimentalizing a question that is from my point of view beyond them. I was talking metaphysics. You waxed sentimental moralist. The issue of suicide, from its spiritual and psychological root, is not about rights in a society because if that were so free individuals in a free society would not commit suicide -- and we see in the statistics of suicide that  it is far more prevalent in affluent, so-called free societies than its opposite. Suicide at base is about the disenchantment and alienation of a given individual from their momentary circumstances and hence by extension the environment and circumstances (so society) they live in. That is from one level.

From another vantage point, suicide is about something else, especially the kind of frequent occurences we're talking about here. The cases discussed here point to factors that conventional thought dismisses out of hand -- to its peril. Modern counsellors and the theories they expound about suicide cannot explain what is going on because they and their theories are placing carts before proverbial horses. Furthemore, from my point of view, the entire contemporary mental health discipline, psychology and psychiatry both, doesn't have a clue what it is talking about, since its theories on every level about the nature of the human mind and consciousness are fundamentally flawed, so what these people think about suicidal individuals (and what course of actions they may take) is completely irrelevent. They don't know the mind so the circumstances and theories they posit are like the story of the blind men feeling out the elephant and told to explain it. In fact I would go so far as to say that the fatal flaws with the mental health industry is one of the reasons why they are incapable of helping people and why more and more people are being led into fits of (momentary or prolonged) insanity and, in worse cases scenarios, suicide.

Whether a person's choice to kill themselves is to be understood or not, is beside the point. I am not making an argument from speculation when I say, "human life is like a project for bringing the soul to its perfection so that it can inhabit its vehicle in the next life" (and by next life I am not talking about reincarnation either). From where I sit, like it or not, this is fact.

Also framing this question as if it were a cornerstone of democratic liberty is truly unbelievable and shows just how sinister these notions can become when taken out of their circumscribed contexts.

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Nuri

You are talking religion: "human life is like a project for bringing the soul to its perfection so that it can inhabit its vehicle in the next life. ". You are entitled to your opinion, putting that aside:

My view is that in a truly free society, you own your life, and your only obligation is to respect the rights of others. The often expressed view that the possibility of suicide justifies psychiatric treatment even if it must be imposed against the will of the potentially suicidal person is wrong. To prevent you from killing yourself, doctors stand up in court and say something to the effect that, by reason of a mental illness, you are a danger to yourself and need treatment.  To use force to prevent suicide because of their belief that the potentially suicidal person's desire to die is probably temporary and will probably go away or subside if he or she is forced to live a short time longer until the acute emotional reaction to a recent traumatic event has faded with time.  Suicide is something people do after long contemplation as part of their efforts to deal with what they consider intolerable life circumstances.

There is suicide as an act of desperation

And then there is euthanasia. These two are completely different things. One is an act of pure angst. The other is an act of love!

Life in principle is precious and should be nurtured. The theological issues of the afterlife as phrased by the mainstream religions on the question of suicide has been phrased badly and immaturely IMV. It isn't the case that the All-High punishes someone who takes their life in a momentary fit of madness. Why does the All-High, the Source of All-Being need to punish that soul for or be vindictive towards it? That is silly talk. It is more the case that the term of each human life is like a project for bringing the soul to its perfection so that it can inhabit its vehicle in the next life. If the term of this project is ended prematurely, then it comes to the Other Side malformed, kind of like an aborted fetus who then must grow into its human sentience from its aborted stage. 

Suicide is viewed as a dirty word in society

but I think one should have the right to end ones life whenever one choses. There is an obsession with preserving life which I find bizarre. One reason some oppose the right to commit suicide is theological belief that is sometimes expressed this way: "God gave you life, and only God has the right to take life from you."  Using this reasoning to justify interfering with a person's right to commit suicide is imposing religious beliefs on people who may not share those beliefs. Another reason some people believe it is ethical to interfere with a person's right to think about or commit suicide is belief in mental illness. So-called mental illness does not deprive people of free will, but on the contrary is an expression of free will .

The only opeople who suffer are those left behind.

So there. Life is overrated!

Rustgoo

The statistical reality of a chain of three suicides in four years in the same place has the signature of something entirely different. Most people dismiss this stuff, which is their prerogative, but in a situation such as this you need parapsychological/paranormal investigation and not community counsellors with textbook remedies about coping or theories about teenage/adolescent depression.

I walk in and out of the world of the occult and  the paranormal dealing with parapsychological, ultra-mundane events on a regular basis. I will be blunt: these sorts of events in such close proximity have the classic  hallmarks of entity possession written all over them! People can dismiss this angle all they like, but it doesn't make it any less true.

...........

CHE STRAZZIO LA VITA

NASCERE,CRESCERE,SUFRIRE

E POI MORIRE.    ALBERTO MORAVIA

OH PITTY THE LIFE

TO BE BORN,TO GROW,TO SUFFER,AND THEN DIE.          

 Maziar

The pressure on kids is enormous

I have actually talked with many folks and seen their attitude towards studying and learning.  What has surprised me through is that for the most part, Caucasians, Jews, Arabs & Persian seemed to not only study but also have time for fun activities. 

Somewhere along the process, in the last 10-15 years, there has been a great shift.  Now kids in the US are competing not only in the US but also with international students for spots in the top ten.

The influx of Indian & Asians particularly Koreans has taken this to maddening levels.

I would like the dear author to know that a former business partner told me that his wife who happens to be a house wife/accountant  is part of a Korean circle "online" where the mom learns from others about the books and summer courses and all other stuff that would get their kids into top ten schools.  And the strangest part is that his daughter is only 10 or 12 years old- no kidding!

These kids are enrolled in multiple classes for music and such, extra-courses that would boost the SAT levels.  It is really maddening and unfathomable to what extent these kids are deprived of normal childhood to be placed under such pressure.

But, in the end most top ten school require an interview and usually an essay.  This is the part where kids can show that they are multi dimensional.  Also most interviewers happen to be of an age where they understand that kids are not supposed to be programmed computer and they would make their recommendations based upon that. 

Unfortunately, for many kids in Iran, English is not taught well.  Whereas in Pakistan & India they follow the British system and many usually prepare themselves for the A levels early on.

Hope everything will be good.  Also when your kids grow old enough, I think I know of an SAT teacher who teaches very effective methods for boosting the score.  Believe it or not - he charges $500/ hour based in NYC

Anonymouse jan

Thank you.

You are so right in what you say. I also hope that you will never experience such a horrible thing.  Suicide of a loved one or someone you know is specially shocking because it is usually violent and it is sudden, like when someone punches you in the stomach when you are not expecting it. One minute they are there and the next minute they are gone forever. 

It is very sad & difficult to deal with. May this be your last.

Death of anyone you know is very sad.  Some are more sad and horrifying.  I don't know of anyone who committed suicide and hope that I never do but I can imagine it being very painful and confusing.

The teens are the most difficult.  They have so many obstacles to get through these years and this suicide issue is just really sad.  All we can do is show them our love and show them love and that life is worth living for and there will be other days, better days. 

Everything is sacred.

Latina jan

Thank you for your reply. As you rightly say, it is so difficult to deal with the pain of someone killing himself, specially if that person is young.

Bomannyali jan

Thank you for your reply and all the good advice you have given me.  I agree with you that faith is an important component of healing and I and my family use our faith to deal with any difficulty we may be facing.

Monda jan

Thank you for your advice.  At times like these it is so therapeutic to have someone to talk to.

........

I agree  that it is a subject that needs to be discussed.

 Any death for whatever reason is a tragic loss. However, it  is an even greater loss when a young person that appears to have everything decides to end their life. It leaves their loved ones with so many questions, guilt and great sorrow.

 bajenaghe naghi, Thank you for writing about such an important subject.

Wishing you and your son better days ahead.

maybe a good way to approach it

this is truly a devastating event.  i agree with other readers that you should discuss it with your son. 

it sounds that perhaps the workload and pressure on students to excel in school is partly to blame.  maybe that is something to have a parent conference about.

comparing my high school to undergrad to grad school, my most miserable time was in high school.  the work load was extremely unbearable and difficult.

also it doesn't hurt if a family is not only socially but also involved in religious activites.  Even at a very young age, kids rationalize that if they did poorly in a test that God is watching out for them and wants the best for them.  Unfortunately, for many iranian families there is no sense of community that revolves around religious activities.  Whereas in Pakistani, Arab, Korean and Jewish families they are involved with religious activities.

Hope you feel better.  Take out your son and family to watch a movie and loosen up a bit around your son.  Kids always like to feel their parents are cool.  It makes them feel better. 

Bajenagh jan, Sorry for your losses

It is so heart-wrenching when people find themselves trapped in the unbearable darkness of a moment.  So wise of you to write this blog, sharing of sadness is the best way in dealing with loss.  I hope you have had long conversations with your son about his friend's decision, it may be helpful to you both to open up about the topic of suicide and your individual perspectives on the value of life.

Take good care, especially these days when you are emotionally impacted by multiple losses. Be gentle to yourself and share with friends as you wish.  Thank you for sharing with us here.

Thank you

Thank you to all who took the time to read this blog. I specially thank those who cared to write because their kind and sympathetic words were all that I needed to cheer up. 
  Azarin jan you did make me panic.  Please don't do this again. I have a faint heart - unless you really want to kill me.  I thank you for your kind comments.

  Red Wine jan thank you for your support. It means a lot. 

  Nazy jan thank you for your kind words.  I also think it is so important to talk and discuss suicide with our children.  We must make them understand that no matter what,  they are the most important beings in our lives and that they are always loved.  They should be made to understand that sometimes we as parents may be upset, angry, or disappointed with them, and may not like them for a short time, but our love for them is always flowing and never stops, no matter what.
    Zanboor_ghavi_mannyslawyer jan the man who jumped off the 14th floor was Jewish and not many minuts after his suicide his relatives were doing their best to make sure that the word suicide to not appear as the cause of death.  Apparently, if a Jewish person commits suicide he is not allowed to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

  Darius jan thank you for your sensitive comments. It is always so sad to lose any person through suicide, no matter what the reason may be. In the United States for some reason the post office workers are the ones that suddenly go crazy and start shooting.  I have heard among professionals, dentists have the highest rate of suicide. I always learn something new reading what you write.

  Princess jan thank you for your empathy. It must be very hard for someone to come to the decision of taking his own life, the most precious gift given to us by our maker.  It is probably even more difficult to go through with it. The reasons for committing suicide are probably countless.  Today I was telling a close relative about the news of Polanski winning the the best director award at the Berlin Film Festival. She told me, as if she had thought about this before, that he will kill himself before allowing the authorities to ship him to America and send him to prison to be beaten and raped by other inmates.  After all that is what inmates do to child molesters.  She concluded by saying that it was a "gentleman's way out." 

  Rustgoo jan may be they should do that. It makes sense to me too.  This high school is a college preparatory school with a rigid entrance requirements and even more rigid standards of high achievement. Some of the more fragile students may find it difficult to cope. But they should be taken care of by the school.  

  Ebi jan thank you. It is very sad and I am sure the parents or the relatives of the suicide victims go through life wondering why along with a lot of what ifs. 

  Mostafa Ghanbari jan deep in the minds of all us there are dark and secret crevices full of good and bad thoughts that compel us to do things that we not know their genesis. I don't know about you, but I do things or say things that I surprise myself either for their uncommon brilliance or most often utter stupidity.  

It is all about those passing moments which do not pass...

mg

 Defintiely they are not cowards, stupids or abnormal people as they face the death bravely. So therefore I believe there are some veiled and wild  moments within all of us which contain some other-worldly impressions which are inherently in need of  appropriate ways of interpretation to get  moderated  and formed positively and not to get plunged into the dark moments of doubts, hesitation and confusion.

 When those moments come , to pass, they would require an special pass which makes them accredited , weighted and convinced to go through. in other words each of these moments has a smack of some sort of eternal sense which creates some amazingly intricate regrets towards some known and unknown philosophical implications.

I think a suicider is a brave person who tries to save the beautiful and eternal moments but he goes the wrong way by preferring descending to ascending.

Bajenaghe AZIZ !!!

Your blog makes one sad,but at the same time wondering why?

Are they coward,crazy,brave or..... ?

But one thing is for sure,they are not the only victims of their own act.

sepaas

Ebi aka Haaji

God giveth, and God taketh away; but...

Maybe it's time for a parent like you to initiate a community-based inquiry into the chain of incidents. The statistical reality of three suicides in four years shouldn't leave much room for our cultural fatalism.

Sad and painful

Bajenagh jaan,

Thanks for sharing your pain. What you say is very true, about the number of victims who are left behind. I am no expert on this subject, but one thing I know, the decision to take ones own life doesn't come easily. When the time comes, the pain of carrying on has to be so tremendously unbearable to drive someone to make such a decision. That is why I think it is very difficult for us to judge. Like everything else, some people are better at coping with the struggles and challenges life throws at us, then others, so I don't think cowardice or selfishness play a role here. In some cases, for example, the seemingly inexplicable 'self-hate' becomes unbearable. 

Thank you for another thought provoking blog.

PS: and just a word about the ones who commit suicide because of depression, in addition to the unbearable pain they feel, they also feel extremely lonely. Not necessarily because they are alone, but because they feel they cannot (are unable to) communicate the excruciating pain with their loved one, because their pain cannot be communicated through words. 

Condolences BN Jaan...

Very sad and alas very common especially amongst the 20 to 30 years old.

Difficult to judge them. Look at Princess Leila Pahlavi and how many people judged her and her family without understanding the circumstances ( Anorexia, depression, alcohol and medications ...).

It is a selfish act but a painful one too no matter how it is done. But some people are more fragile than others and sometimes no matter how hard they try they are simply not happy and in pain.

I think that modern society and the fact that human relations are more and more codified by rules than sentiments starting at work is something that certainly contributes to these collateral damages.

In France mysteriously over the past year 28 people working for France Telecom commited suicide in various ways and in front of their colleagues and always very violently due to stress. It has been a real wierd and no one has found an explanation to why except that they all complained about stress at work and the lack of human contact. And these fellows were adults not teens.

It's a sad subject but good to speak about in the open to break the taboo.

Hope they have found peace at least but it's far more difficult for their loved ones to have to live with it.

Warm Regards,

DK

I feel you

Ok, so my biggest problem with suicide I think is that somehow Islam, Christianity and other religions look down upon it and state that "suiciders" will go to "Hell."

And this is my biggest problem, you would think that God would understand the torture these poor souls went through that He would actually have mercy on their souls and not the other way around.

The brave cowards

Salam Bajenagh Jan:

I share your sadness. Thanks for telling me about your agony. When young people die, no matter how they die, a big hole sits inside our conscience, blaming us for not having done enough to prevent the loss and the resultant pain which engulfs many people. Knowing that someone in our vicinity felt desperate enough to take his or her own life is a really sad and unbearable thought.

The subject bears discussion inside families, where real feelings and fears about the subject can be shared and no one is in any kind of doubt about how the other family members think and feel about it. This may just be the preventive factor that a person in a bad space in his/her life might need to know about in order to think twice before attempting suicide. In discussing the subject with my children, I have told them that I think it takes a whole lot more courage to stay alive and to face all that life dishes out to us, and that a suicide takes tens more victims than the one who commits it. I have told them that no matter how desperate they may feel sometimes, they are never alone and that a family can be put into a lot better use in solving a problem than in mourning a lost life.

I wish you and your family peace and patience in dealing with the loss. Thanks for sharing Bajenagh Jan.

...

Thank you for your blog... i enjoyed to read it and thinking about it.

God bless you  amigo .

Interesting subject!

Dear bn,

Actually, since a few months, I've been thinking about this same subject (Don't panic! It is the main theme of my current writing project!), and as you said, I agree with you that the real victims are those who live afterwards. But I think this is exactly the main goal for many who kill themselves...Some go crazy, grab a machine gun and kill friends and family and colleagues, etc... but others decide to kill them by slow death.

Even if making this choice is mostly based on pain and suffering and actually doing it takes lots of gut, still I think that life/living needs even more courage.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Azarin