فرمان دادم تا .... ذرات تنم خاک ایران شود

For continuation of this discussion visit:

//iranian.com/main/blog/hovakhshatare/call-ac...

//iranian.com/main/blog/david-et-17

//iranian.com/main/blog/david-et/please-distribute 

Please ask your friend, cousin, activist in Iran to form a team

and actively distribute this across the country through their network. This is not task of one night or 22 Bahman or Charshanbesouri only. This regime will go. Maybe next week maybe next year. But it will go. 

We need to prepare the groundwork, education & information that helps the collective Iranian society from  falling for foreign or domestic enemies and conspiracies. Getting this information out puts everyone on the same page in terms of unified understanding and demands from the next government. Whatever that may be. 

لطفآ پخش کنید Please Distribute:

David, looks good. Lets distribute.

I had rearranged the order to put the more 'urgent' demands on the top spots to get attention & interest quicker. But distributers can do that themselves.

Thanks 

English:

We the people of Iran wish and demand these principles as the pillars of the Secular government of Iran. That these principles form the framework of our beliefs, vision, mission & purpose that shall guide our government of the people, laws and our elected and appointed representatives. That no person or entity shall govern, legislate or implement laws and agreements inconsistent with the principles:

1. Territorial Integrity, Independence and Sovereignty of Iran.

2. Respect for independence and integrity of other countries and promoting peace with all nations and countries.

3. Government of the People, By the People and For the People.

4. Three Independent Branches of Executive, Legislative and Judiciary of the government with limited terms and full accountability and transparency.

5. No Official Religions and ideologies.

6. Full separation of Religion and State at all government levels without any exceptions.

7. Exclusion of clergy, religious groups, parties and organizations from government.

8. Freedom of Expression, Information, Religions, Beliefs, Media and Assembly.

9. Equal social and legal rights and opportunity for all Iranians.

10. Gender Equality without any exceptions.

11. Presumption of innocence until proven guilty. No political prisoners and prisoners of conscious.

12. Full guarantee and legal protection of all human, political, economic, social, religious and cultural rights within the scopes of the constitution.

13. Conservation and improvement of environment.

For more information visit:

Site:             www.iransecular.org

Blog:            iransecular.blog.com  

Facebook:     //www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=298346817777&ref=ts 

Twitter:         //twitter.com/iransecular                                 

Email:          info@iransecular.org

some errors and minor changes

now I do.

.

MM, did you see the call to action Thread?

//iranian.com/main/blog/hovakhshatare/call-action

The letter in whatever form or viral approach is:

To: whoever (farsi or english)

Re: synopsis of our demands

copy/pase contents of the other thread that has updated intro and synopsis

And add other links, sites etc and ask the readers to disseminate

How is this email to start?

Dear All,

Iran is at historic cross-roads to morph into a different political system in the coming weeks.  The last time this happened, the people blindly gave the helms to the Mullahs which gave us the Islamic Republic constitution, a suppressive theocracy.  This time around, it is important to tell everyone what the people want and spread it as much as we can. 

As you may know, David Etebari has been compiling a Secular Democratic Constitution for Iran.  The following is a short Farsi Preamble of the secular constitution specifically designed for viral distribution in blogs, Twitter, Facebook and emails.  For full transcripts in Farsi and English, See //apps.facebook.com/causes/440700

//media.causes.com/728547?m=89cd2b6c

And, you can find discussions leading to the 5th version in blogs at //iranian.com.

If you like the Preamble below please spread it to your friends.  In emails, please use the BCC tool.  Thanks.

[LAST VERSION OF THE FARSI PREAMBLE TO BE INCLUDED HERE]

It can be. For article 2 at next 'phase' and current full

version of the preamble. I'll leave it to David. However, for this round (see related comments) and purpose the general version will be per David's last merger and update of mine on 'call to action' blog. I will be updating that shortly but it'll be what David updated and I confirmed and I think it is a good middle ground at this juncture based on all the great input and feedback we have had by many participants on several threads.

Shouldn't

Article 13 be merged in with article 14?

David, thanks for all the help & input

Your revised version below looks good. I'll use it as is pending any further fine tuning based on any feedback say by early tomorrow.

Thanks all for your inputs. 

Honakh

I revised my comment below considering many of your great points. I cant devote more tiem today. So it is in your and everyone's good hands. Whatever the outcome I shall comply

Cheers

SamSam & David, thanks for your input

David,

I will incorporate your refinement on the opening paragraph. On 11th hour, let me re-state: The objective is not to be comprehensive and expansive, rather minimalist & as brief as possible for this phase of the process. So, I did away with any points of potential difference & contention, consolidated some items and left some out. We need clear, concise, general, easy/fast to read at this point. For next step we could possibly initiate the full Article 2 release.

SamSam, will clean up for updates, please send any specifics to the other blog.

HOW IS THIS?

ما مردم ایران خواهان حقوق قانونی‌ بنیادی و عرفی (سکولار) هستیم که پایگاه، ریشهٔ تشکیلی  و نهادینهٔ دولت مدنی، عرفی و مردم سالار ایران باشد. اینها فشرده و خلاصهٔ حقوق و بنیانهایی هستند که نهادینه کردن آنها در متن و ساختار قانون اساسی‌ ایران خواست و درخواست مردم ایران است.  ما  خواهان آنیم    که هیچ کس و هیچ دستگاهی نتواند خارج از این اصول و قوانین بنیادی و نهادینه انتخاب یا انتصاب شوند، یا قانونگذاری کنند

تمامیت ارضی، استقلال و حاکمیت ملی ایران
احترام به استقلال و تمامیت سایر کشورها و تشویق صلح نزد تمام ملت­ها و کشورها
دولت مردم، توسط مردم و برای مردم.
سه قوای مستقل مجریه، مقننه و قضاییه­ با دوره­های محدود و پاسخگویی و شفافیت کامل.
عدم وجود مذهب یا ایدئولوژی رسمی.
جدایی کامل و بدون استثنای دولت از دین در تمامی‌ ساختار دولت.
جدایی روحانیون، گروه­ها، احزاب و سازمان­های مذهبی از ساختار دولت.
آزادی بیان، اطلاعات، باورها ، رسانه ها و تجمع
برابری کامل در مقابل قانون برابر و در چهار چوب قانون اساسی‌. بیگناه شمرده شدن تا اثبات جرم. غیر قانونی‌ بودن زندانی کردن به جرمهای عقیدتی، سیاسی، و وجدانی
برابری امکانات و حقوق اجتماعی و قانونی‌
برابری کامل جنسیتی در مقابل قانون و بدون استثنا
تضمین حقوق قانونی‌ و مدنی تمام شهروندان از نظر انسانی‌، سیاسی، اقتصادی، مذهبی‌، اجتماعی و فرهنگی‌، در چهار چوب  قانون اساسی‌ 
حفظ محیط زیست و تلاش ملی‌ در نگهداری آن

A suggestion

You folks can decide;

1-a bit more positive tone than negative

2-a reference on the 3 milenium journey that got us here as a guiding light for a grand vision that awaites us

3- more yes,s and less no,s

& much more but i,m short of time

Hovakh, will try the moment i get some free time pal

Cheers & good luck!!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Dear Hovakhshatareh

I just read what you wrote in a new blog. You have made substantial changes that would need substantial new discussions .

I am afraid considering the agreed timeline, 11th hour is not the time to make drastic changes . Although there is a time to do so when time allows.

For exmaple your new sentence about not religious people is too broad and exclusionary

But that remains to be yours and others choice what to send. I am afraid I will stick to the original text that has gone through much debate for more than one year (with any last minute minor changes).

Also your introduction has now increased to almost similar sentences about what the government should not be more than what it should be which I think is a better way to communicate.

cheers  

Good point MM

This should be the very basic question that every civil servant is subject to which law are they commited to. Then they can decide, not the other way around. The highest law in the land should be the constitution, and the universal human rights of all citizens should be upheld with no exceptions under any name or pretense. I also like Hovakh's idea- a moratorium until some sense of stability is achieved.

Let history be made...

-Fair

SamSam, would you kindly do a Farsi version and a Parsi version

of what I just posted?

The opening paragraph and starred items only. 

Glad

some folks liked it, eventhough it was a rough copy done in haste. If & when you folks finalize your draft, time permitting, be happy to help with some wordings which ultimately has to be ratified by folks better suited such as my pal ostaad Ebi :). Vildmose jaan, I think they should have this printed in Persian( as the main document) & then diversify by printing it in Farsi , Arabic, Azarii,Balouchii & Kurdish also.

Cheers!!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

All, I just posted the compilation

//iranian.com/main/blog/hovakhshatare/cal...

I think my short summary is self explanatory. 

Fair/David - It all comes down to who one is obedient to!

In the US, the members of the military are prohibited from running for government positions unless they retired from the military.  The members of the armed forces have a completely different obedience structure.

In the past, even the civilian catholics in the US were looked down because it was thought that the catholics obeyed the Pop over any other law.  That changed when JFK clearly defined his priorities and his views on the US constitution.  Other US clerics are more indepedent, and nonetheless, the people have been able to see right through them.

As far as the structure of the Shi'a clerics, my question would be "if the cleric gets a fatwa from Najaf, who will he obey; the constitution or the marjaa-e taghlid?  For now, we can avoid answering that question by preventing clerics from running unless they retired and clearly defined their loyalties.  Then, I can see them running for a political office after a grace period.

Fair: I think there should

Fair: I think there should at least be a 10-year ban initially  with possibility of revisiting and voting on the issue every four years...I think that would solve our cunundrum temproarily.

David you have touched

on the billion dollar question- will a vast majority of Iranian people accept a government in which religious people have no role and are excluded, and legitimacy comes from solely the people's vote and not from God?

You and I certainly will, but I do not believe that in 1906 or 1979 the majority of Iranians would. This explains in part why the 1906 revolution never reached fruition, and the 1979 one was a complete disaster.

I agree with you that clergy or people with strong religious commitments should not be in government, but that would work in Switzerland or France or the US. Would it work in Iran? (Even Jesse Jackson and Mike Huckabee were not excluded from running for president).

This is our dilemna in Islamic countries like Turkey and Algeria and so on. How does someone like Karroubi or Kadivar participate in political issues? Should they be banned? Even in the US that is not the case. But in the west, the religion has gone through a very bloody transformation in which its role in society was severely reduced. At the cost of a big portion of Europe's population I might add.

I agree that we should not compromise our values as the Jebhe Melli did in 1979 at its own peril. But you realize it is not up to "we" to let this or that happen- the people will ultimately decide. So let's go for it, keep it as you said, and see the reaction of people. Let's make the case and hope that the people will react positively. And then let's accept the will of the people.

Thanks again for putting this together, and let's go viral!

-Fair

Fair!

Your suggestion of:

"Exclusion of clergy, religious groups, parties and organizations from using government for religious activities. " 

refers to intent of the person or group prior to governing and that can not be guaranteed in a constitution . So many promise that  they do or don't do something and once in power they don't keep their promise. Didn't Khomeini do that? Others can do the same, lets not fall in to the trap of idealism because of our liberalism. That has been the errors of Iranian Liberals for too many years dating back to Constitutional Revolution of 1906 and beyond.

We can not afford to allow that to happen again when it comes to mixing religion with politics based on promises, we need laws to specifically protect the rights of The People from it.

A clergy like Karoubi or religious organization like lets says Mujahedeen Khalgh is not secular.

One has devoted his studies and life to lead people to religiously as a Mullah, Ayatollah etc

and the other committed through its organizational charters to enforce its religious ideologies by political and other means.

Both non-secular.

Now if an individual simply believes in a religion but is not a clergy , then s/he is not under obligation or oath to promote his/her views and therefore can be or believe in secularism and still practice its religion .

If any organization in its charter believes in God, that does not make it religious but if it goes beyond that and states that it's goals and beliefs are to enforce religious views by any means, then it is unable to practice in a secular government because if so, will either have to violate its own charters which means is no longer than organization! or violate the secular rules of the government which then is not fit to be included. 

In such system person or a group must chose between government of God or Government of People and those who intend to mix the two by definition , have already ruled our nation one way or another as defined in both prior constitutions and failed !

In fact the one primary difference between this draft and other suggestions for secular constitutions that I have seen , is that this draft does not allow the religious clergy and groups to enter the government and then use their religious constituents to influence the secular system.

Sadly I still see too much idealism in the minds of those who are envisioning the future of Iran when they put their thoughts in words such as proposed constitutions etc... Same "idealism" that applies to religions applies to monarchists but that's another discussion! One has the King as his pure and honest idol  representing her lost empire and another thinks God and its human reps and groups are the idols representing his lost Medina, both dreaming.... while the earthly thugs keep stealing their dreams again and again.

This time we must not be victims of our own liberalism losing grasp of Realism to the point of idealism or surrealism only to once again fall in the hands of some sort of Fascism!! 

MM, thanks for the links. I will publish a compilation by end of

today, pending any additional input in the interim. It will include final wording on opening paragraph, synopsis with any modifications, action items and call to action for readers. 

David

Yes, I am with you on the role of religious organizations in government. Question is- how much will this be misinterpreted (deliberately) by our opponents. I think your details in article 8 says it well:

Individuals within the government may have personal religious
preferences but they cannot enforce any religion based laws and
restrictions.

This makes it clear that the republic is not against religious people, it just says keep your religion for yourself and do not use government as a platform to promote it. I would try to somehow emphasize this aspect in item 7. something like

Exclusion of clergy, religious groups, parties and organizations from using government for religious activities.

Otherwise, it could be seen as a ban on all religious people from entering government even if they seek only to be a public servant, for example Mohsen Kadivar or Karroubi, etc.

On the other point about saying secular republic, republic, etc. I see your point as well. It is probably safe to say "republic" because it cannot then be claimed to be a call to overthrow (the current government is supposedly a republic in name, we are demanding it be one in action by adopting these principles. If they choose not to adopt these principles then all bets are off, etc...)

It all sounds great- let's go viral! History is about to be made, and the fascists will lose despite all their desperate attempts in Iran and outside of Iran as we see here.

IRANI MEEMIRAD

ZELLAT NEMIPAZIRAD

-Fair

I am ready too - internet & in demos - need summary of ACTIONS

I just want to remind everyone that the Amnesty International has provided a platform for the Iranian Internet users especially for 2/11/10 week of protests, see links in: (//iranian.com/main/blog/me.g., m/take-action-iran-feb-11th-2010) to post viral stuff.

In addition, please participate in the demonstrations that are scheduled around the world, e.g., see

//iranian.com/main/blog/mm/take-action-iran-feb-11th-2010

and also oktaby's blog that has many more protest times/venues:

//iranian.com/main/blog/oktaby/22-bahman-protest-times-locations-feb-11-12

Do not forget about phone calls, emails, Twitter, blogs, Facebook, mirror sites.  

.................................... 

David or Hovakhshatare,

Please summarize all activities.

Thanks.

Farah Rusta

I don't know what your point is but if and when you do, type it and make yourself more useful!

Fair I missed one of your points:

You wote: "Also, for the viral campaign, I would shy away from the explicit label "secular republic of Iran", which will quickly be taken to be a call for overthrow and excuse for violence. I like more saying "government of Iran" should have these principles, etc. because these then are just a list of demands that our people want, not a call for overthrow. In practice they are the same thing, but one gives more ammunition to the other side than the other."

 As for whole constitution I think title should spell out republic. After all Article 1 states it anyway.

But for this summary of demands there is no need to mention it. As for this list and campaign I am OK either way and see your point. From the previous inputs from Hovakh and MM, I think they also agree with you.

may be Hovakhshatareh or someone can make minor change to the wording of the initial paragraph to address your concern.

Let's wrap this up and get going. After all we need to translate the initial paragraph to Persian too ...