JahanKhalili

That doesn't mean that Hitler's rise to power was engineered...

All it says is that there were genuine historic causes for the Second World War, and that it was not the result of one man's program or ideas.

Iranians of course will jump and try to fit this in with their favorite repititious ideas about the British being behind everything.

They're rumor freaks. snopes.com, mythbusters and other such debunkers of bullshit would forget about dealing with urban legends in the West if they could just hear Iranians.

hirre

Very good observations.

It was in fact the Versailles treaty which paved the way for the Second World War.

People now pretend that Hitler was the final cause of the war, and that he alone engineered it and wanted to conquer the world, etc.

In reality, he was doing what many Germans wanted - trying to restore Germany's lost territories, and trying to restore its independence from foreign interferrence. 

With or without Hitler, Germany was put in a position that no nation with any genuine self-respect would accept or cooperate with.

It depends a little what you mean with this...

"Their tendency to make up complete BS about history - such as the idea that the British were behind Hitler"...

It depends a little what you mean with this...

But generally the "Treaty of Versailles" which was signed by the Entente (Britain etc) in 1919 created such a heavy burden on German's economy which helped Hitler's agenda/rethorics and claim for powers (see Wikipedia also for further references). When it comes to actual money that needed to be payed by Germany it was $442 billion (2011 inflation adjusted). Many economists back then thought if was too much and would stop Germany from developing, they also said the dept payment would completed in 1988, actually it was last year it became completed, 92 years after the treaty...

In retrospect, it's not so much as helping Hitler, but instead making it hard or almost impossible for Germany to recover in short time which led to the WW2...

Baldrick jan

so you do care about image then!!!

One example of the effectiveness of today's propaganda

... are the legions of silly little Nazi-haters, who are out and about, on the march everywhere, looking for evidence of Nazism - i.e. something that hasn't really existed in any viable political form since the end of the Second World War.

Its even more ridiculous for Iranians to get involved in it, given their apparent complete lack of concern for the unresolved issues of support that Saddam Hussein received from Western companies and governments.

If they were really any good, they'd have been on the ball and would have paid attention to THOSE things, which are far more relevant to them.

They haven't obviously, else one of you would have noticed that Saddam's chief arms dealer, Sarkis Soghanalian, died on Oct. 5. I don't think anyone besides myself posted about it on Iranian.com, and I saw no response when I posted about it.

Expressions of Iranian patriotism don't seem to extend to finding out who has Iranian blood on their hands and holding them accountable for it. 

It probably wasn't on the Persian BBC, the Persian VOA or the Persian Radio Israel. So, Iranians don't know about it. What's not fed to them by these propagada sources, doesn't register for them - even when it involves the mass murder of Iranians.

The ridiculousness of the call to get Iranians to be more concerned about the wellbeing of others than themselves, does strike some people.

I remember an Iranian boy mocking the holocaust remembrance at my university, and was dismissive of it. His words were:

می خواهند مردم را دور خودشان جمع کنند، و ما بگوییم، بله، ما پشت شماها ایستاده ایم. 

In other words, he was pointing out that it was very self-serving stuff - which was quite unusual, since no one else had such a thing to say. 

So I always keep open the possibility that Iranians do in fact have independent thinkers among them who aren't affected by some propaganda around them, and don't let themselves be intimidated by coercion such as villification or labeling of them if they don't go along with it.

In Iran, I remember in particular Iranians in private voicing their opposition to the loud propaganda around them.

Its always easy to find people who are affected by propaganda, so I'm not looking for those types, nor do I care about changing their minds. 

Au contraire

The propaganda of those days can be compared to that of today, if we are comparing effectiveness.

The stuff they had in Germany wasn't as effective as claimed, because if it alone could do the trick, there would be no need for the Gestapo.

The existence of the Gestapo shows that coercion was necessary - hence the propaganda by itself wasn't able to do the deed.

As Goebbels put it, "A little propaganda is better than none", hinting at his own lack of faith in it as an all-powerful tool to control what people believe.

Today, you have Hollywood and an entire entertainment industry that work based on a much more developed and responsive approach.

The fact that Radio Farda or Hollywood needs minimal coercion (if any) to get people to believe or accept things, shows that it is much more effective than anything Goebbels could have dreamt of.

You see people nowadays who have genuine feelings of attachment for celebrities, singers and even fictional characters - i.e. people who don't even exist, but are shown in some movie or on some TV show.

And that has been accomplished without something like the Gestapo.

So the propaganda we have today appears to be much, much more effective. 

JK

You touched upon different subjects there. I will, however, limit myself to the propaganda issue only.

Yes, I agree, propaganda now and then can not be compared. But neither can the target audience.

While propagandists of whatever ideology, politics, etc have different means at their disposal nowadays we, as their audience, also have them. So, one can always check and double check different sources until they have sufficient information to make their own judgment.

Briefly, brainwashed nowadays are only those who wish to be so.

Congratulations, Rea

I think you're the first commenter to actually comment on the video.

I don't know if the weekly newsreel was produced under Goebbels' ministry. I am no expert on this stuff.

However, it appears that not everything was under Goebbels' control.

For example, the German news magazine Signal was supposedly produced by the Wehrmacht, not by the Goebbels' ministry. 

The real history of these things is of course not known by people who look for reasons to simply dismiss whatever doesn't fit with their assumptions.

One thing that is interesting though, is that no propaganda from that time - Goebbels' or any other - can rival today's propaganda that is produced by the mass media and Hollywood for public consumption.

Compared to something like Hollywood, Goebbels' propaganda appears to be very bombastic and loud.

It is perhaps not-so-impressive in its ability to influence people without being accompanied by coercion.

Hence, reading about the Gestapo's reports, you'll find that people in Germany were apparently telling jokes about Hitler during those times. 

One of them was: What is the difference between Hitler and the sun? Ans: The sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Hitler rises in the West and sets in the East (in reference to Hitler's defeat in the war largely because of the Eastern front). 

In contrast, the devotion that Hollywood or the VOA or Radio Farda recieves from its audience seems to be very uncritical. 

Question about the video

Is it supposed to prove that Goebbels was good at propaganda, or what ?

Not one of you commenters showed an interest in the video

So what can we conclude?

Why are Iranians attracted to the Voice of America, Radio Israel, or the BBC like flies around dung?

Like I said, there may be a silent majority of Iranians who did in fact find the video to be interesting, and had never considered the German viewpoint of the war, and who didn't comment. 

This would suggest that interest in the VOA, Radio Israel, Radio Farda, Radio Schmarda, etc. is more than just people sucking up to propaganda out of sheer political interest. 

But whether any significant number of Iranians found the video to be interesting for its own sake - aside from questions of politics or self image - is an unknown. 

If any intelligent Westerners have been following this...

... they must be learning a lot about Iranians.

So far, the responses have been mostly attempts to insult my family by referring to my father, or by pretending that there is something wrong with me, etc.

In other words, their entire concern is with prestige (they are trying to attack mine, and are assuming that I care about it), and they have zero interest in any subject or field for its own sake. 

Iranians never fail to behave like Iranians. 

FOREIGNERS’ Obsession

I know not all half Iranian-half foreigners are strange but there are a concerning number of them who have OBSESSION with Iranians.

In general they, similar to JK, have;

-          OBSESSION with our culture

-          OBSESSION with our food, for example, they have this peculiar obsession about kaleh pacheh

-          OBSESSION with marriage issues such as virginity, in particular when it comes to a member of their own family which I won’t mention here are they become suicidal !!!!!!!!

-          OBSESSION with our education

-          OBSESSION with our fashion

-          OBSESSION with going to bathroom

-          OBSESSION with our funeral

-          OBSESSION about our politics

-          OBSESSION about how we think

JK, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE LIKE THIS????

Can you explain??

........

thank you for pointing it out .

NOW can you please take that medication?

I'll got go to work see ya

Maziar

An alternative point to consider

I think it would be impossible to get an honest answer out of them, or to get them to focus on the test.

So there could be no scientific test of Iranians, regardless of where I try to conduct it. 

They would ruin it by lying or arguing. 

Each question would have to be presented in flattering and flower terms, and the test wouldn't end up being scientific because the Iranian crybabies would be offended by probing questions that would really get at the truth about them. 

JK, interesting, but just a point to consider...

   While I agree with your suggestion that one has to consider every story from opposing point of views I do not agree with your assertion below:

   "This is a test.  Let's see if Iranians are genuinely interested in exploring, or whether they are purely driven by political expediency."

     It seems you keep making statements about "Iranians" in absolute and inclusive terms. That is imprudent and at times offensive! Specially if you consider folks who visit and comment on IC as a fair sample of Iranians. The IC visitors and more so the bloggers comprise what in statistics is called a "biased" sample. So if you want to conduct a test on 'Iranian" attitudes, IC is certainly the wrong place.

Of course you didn't watch the newsreel, Arj

I never expected anything else.

Re the reel

Dear JK, I did not watch the newsreel, and quite honestly, did not even read your blog beyond the point where called Iranians "dogs." The reason being; if one has a logical argument to make, vulgarity and disdain would naturally be unnecssary! Perhaps unlike you, some of us have people dear to us (e.g. parents or other family members) for whom we have respect -- imperfect and far from your ideals they may be! Indeed, this has less to do with Iranian/non-Iranian issue than with being human! Moreover, you have in the past envoked the same "social conventions" to "defend the honour" of your American mother and her country, so that you even asked some commenters here to leave your country (U.S that is) for their far less critical views of America (remember?)!

But in here, you apparently have the similar contemptuous attitude towards Americans as you do so far towards Iranians! Evidently, you have no respect for Iranians, and by extention, Americans! So, whom does that leave (Europeans and Africans I assume are out of the question!)? I don't want to speculate, but that either opens the door to fascist inclinations that seek social changes through violent re-establishment of defunct and racially charged social orders, or on a simpler note; sheer anti-social tendencies!

Instead of being preoccupied with me

Why don't you look at the newsreel?

An adult tends to feel "mature" and confident until their world view (which they have grown attached to) is shattered by something new - whereupon they fight against whatever it is to preserve the cherished world view.

Children don't have that problem. 

No, I disagree again

I'm not leading you to that conclusion. You are the one who needs to draw it.

Doof bliebt doof, da helfen kiene Pillen.

More and more you lead me to belive you're a case of 'special milk.'

translate the German words above, and you'll see what I mean. Beifall, gute Nacht.

At any rate...

People define "mature" behavior in ways that are very self-serving, because they want to influence others to be a certain way, and they want to define whatever they do or think as "mature".

People who are helpless before a judgmental audience, may be easily intimidated into accepting definitions that are made for criteria that are being used to judge them by people who don't even know them.

I'm not helpless, however.

I've seen a lot of childish petulance and babyish hurt-pride BS going on with Iranian adults - and of very high rank and importance, too - and so am not affected by such pretenses.

Seeing self-important Iranians who were being worshipped by legions of other Iranians, with their pants down and at a complete loss over what to do about a situation that they were certain they understood, shatters a lot of illusions. 

No, I disagree

Children learn languages easier than adults.

The only advantage adults have is their "maturity", which is nothing more than an all-consuming familiarity with how to function and survive in the environment that they are in. 

But if the environment is itself bad, then you have adults who are "mature" in a bad way - like old prisoners in a prison, who are "wise" to the ways of the prison - in comparison to new and young prisoners who are uncorrupted by it.

I'd rather not even be in the prison.

Some people like prison, though. Being familiar with it, they have gotten used to it, and in fact have learned to like it.

Getting used to the way things are and learning to deal with them is what a lot of so-called maturity involves. 

Of course, take that "mature" person out of that environment, and they could be again reduced to an infantile state, and are suddenly unable to function as they once did.

For instance, when old prisoners are released; they did fine in prison... they had learned the ropes, how to get respect, etc. But when free, they find that much of it is completely useless outside of prison. 

So maturity is really nothing to brag about. 

According to Heidegger childrens questions are the most profound

since they have no previous 'knowledge' and all queries are undistorted.

But childhood like any other stage in life has its limitations. As a young person  you could also  develope an interest,  will, and the discipline to learn the German language, and famliarize yourself with likes of Goethe. Brecht, Gunter Grass,.. Needless to say such an act would require a transition from infantile to mature.

Doof bliebt doof, da helfen kiene Pillen.

How many of you even watched the newsreel?

I'm just curious.

It would help me draw really scientifically accurate conclusions about this experiment.

If the commenters here represent the majority of people who have viewed this blog, then this confirms that Iranians aren't worth much, when it comes to genuine curiosity, and are instead preocuppied with politics, self-image, and how to be proper (up until their proper little balancing act for the crowd around them ends, and they fall into their proper little grave and everyone sheds fake proper tears for them before entirely forgetting them).

But if there is a silent majority out there - playing up to the claim that the public knows something - who have not said anything, and who enjoyed learning something new, then I would be able to conclude that Iranians are in fact curious.

Children are more honest

I prefer to act like a younger person.

Young people haven't yet learned all the lies that the adults have accepted as normal. 

If I acted my age as an Iranian, I would never have the curiosity to look at something like this German newsreel. 

Right, I see their point

There were plenty of mature people - most of them, in fact - who believed that the earth was flat.

So public belief determines what's true.

Makes sense. 

Which is why none of you are curious enough to discover...

... things like this newsreel on your own.

That would take an ability to disregard politics and social conventions, and most of you are incapable of it. 

You're just good little servants...

... eager to serve your master.

No wonder going from the political correctness in Iran to the political correctness in America is one smooth transition for Iranians.

So in other words, at some point in your life, you ought to have

enough maturity, courage and self-confidence to observe other people's points on your  state of mind. If they all point out to basically the same thing, there might be a case to ponder.

Ta nabashad chizaky, melat nabandand Shishaky!

In your avatar, you appear as a young man. Perhaps its time to start acting your age, and snap out of the infantile mode.

In other words, people who aren't brave...

... try to hide behind some artificial convention that is there to control people's behavior and to limit freedom of discussion and inquiry.

And Iranians talk about lack of "democracy" and "freedom of speech" in Iran. 

Its themselves who lack it in their own souls. 

Women do this stuff

They try to control other people's behavior by acting up or using some social convention.

In Victorian times in the West, they would use pretend fainting to get out of something that wasn't going their way.

Nowadays, they scream "racism", or "sexism", or some other gimmicky way of getting people to stop from telling things that are too embarrassing and too inconvenient to handle. 

Like the idea that generalizations are wrong. Who made up that crap? Every law known to science is a generalization. 

None of this stuff works on me.

Its you all who need therapy, because you keep persisting in your behavior, imagining that you can change me by pretending that there is something wrong with me, and by ignoring the truth in what I'm telling you.