Iranian Liberal Democrat

Great news for PMOI

Dr. Kazemzadeh

"In the past 32 years , vf has been brutally repressing ALL..."

I agree with you doc and I'll add in the first year and a half of those 32 years PMOI, MEK cheerfully helped vf successfully carry out those "brutally repressing ALL" stuff.

Brilliant move Masoud.

Kudos to you Delavar1 and peace ....

boosboos

by Delavar1 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 01:34 PM PDT

After reading your comments as well as others comments on this Issue I think you may be right. As a reminder I didn't like MKO eirther but I thought they maybe able to help.

boosboos

After reading your comments as well as others comments on this Issue I think you may be right. As a reminder I didn't like MKO eirther but I thought they maybe able to help.

Brainwashing 101

" Delavar1 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 01:01 PM PDT In the Iranian case though, Nationalist and Monarchists despise MKO and the communists. MKO and communists despise Monarchists and Nationalists; so on and soforth. We will never win this way." ----------------   How many times will you push to *unite* Iranians with a rag-tag terror cult that supported Saddam Hussein and is now sponsored by Israel and a handful of U.S. politicians?   Don't you get it?  The majority of Iranians will reject these positions forever ... the incessant attempt to brainwash Iranians on this subject is EXACTLY why the PMOI/MEK should not be de-listed.   MEK should be *united* with a prison cell.   

Why is it that the Arabs

Why is it that the Arabs are winning to rid of their dicators but the Iranians are losing and being imprisoned/tortured/raped by the Islamic regime in Iran and they can't do a damn thing? The answer is unity. The Arab nations are united against their dictators whether they are nationalist , communist or even those few Islamists, they all united. Look at Libia, look at Tunesia. All they have in mind is to reach democracy and then they will decide what type of democratic govt is more appropriate for their nations

In the Iranian case though, Nationalist and Monarchists despise MKO and the communists. MKO and communists despise Monarchists and Nationalists; so on and soforth. We will never win this way. In a few years even Afghanistan will be a better nation than Iran.

Your vision of reality is so distorted you should avoid driving

Amen to that !  

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Re: PMOI has about 5% of support among the Iranian people!

You got to be kidding me. That means about 4 million. The MEK would be hard pressed to find 20 thousand supporters mostly in the West! If any one has proof that even 1 million Iranians support this gang I like to see it for myself.

Otherwise I could make up statistics too. Sure there are 3 green or gray aliens in Roswell!

MK: PMOI has about 5% of support among the Iranian people!

         Yeah, pigs can fly too!

They can't even fill a basketball stadium with their supporters waving yellow flags! Did you count the youth from Poland in that estimation?! Could the Polish vote in Iran's election you are talking about as well! :-)

          Your vision of reality is so distorted you should avoid driving a car! :-)

More pseudo-scholarly double-talk to justify terror ... nice

To Masoud:   -----------------------------------------------------  "by Masoud Kazemzadeh on Sun Aug 21, 2011 03:03 PM PDT I believe that the PMOI is not a terrorist entity" -----------------------------------------------------      Bin Laden didn't believe that Al Qaeda was a terrorist entity either.  Fundamentally Masoud, that's your problem with your advocacy of the above position.   Iranians know what PMOI/MEK have done.  The EU and U.S. have them on a terror watch list on independent grounds.  Your "belief" doesn't amount to a hill of beans just like Bin Laden's didn't either.     Nobody has to accept the PMOI/MEK; or an apologist for this group.  If you actually respect democracy, you'll honor the views of the majority of Iranians who have rejected the lawfulness of this group and consider them traitors.   

Dear Ayatoilet

Dear Ayatoilet,

Decent people could disagree about their analysis. It is perfectly fine. I present my side, and you present your side. I might be able to change your view or not. You might be able to change my views or not. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Let me just re-state my views and I will leave it at that.

You believe that the PMOI is a terrorist entity, that it fits the criteria for the FTO, and that democratic Iranians should support placing the PMOI on the list.

I believe that the PMOI is not a terrorist entity, that it helps the US govt, therefore does NOT fit the State Department FTO, and that Iranian democrats as well as all the opposition groups to the terrorist regime should defend the civil liberties and political rights of the PMOI now and in the post-fundamentalist Iran. That the current fight features the following lineup. On the one side we have the vf regime, NIAC, and CASMII. On the side we have people from opposition groups (democrats, monarchists, socialists, independents).

The evidence I presented, you disagree. You disagree with the view of the current Foreign Minister of Iraq who is a Kurd and who has stated that the PMOI did not kill any Iraqis. You disagree with the British dude from the British parliament. You disagree with the findings of the UK courts which had decided the case that the PMOI is not a terrorist entity. You disagree with the EU courts which had decided that the PMOI is not a terrorist entity.

You dismiss the long history of the IRI’s Ministry of Intelligence which has been spreading lies about the various opposition groups. We are certain that the IRI lies.

You mentioned the discredited lie that Saddam had placed his chemical weapons in Ashraf camp. President Bush II was desperate to find any chemical stuff anywhere in Iraq. So after the MOI lie on this, the U.S. forces checked every inch of Ashraf and did not find any trace of chemical weapons.

These are FACTS from authoritative sources. These authoritative sources had in their own benefit to rule the other way (good for their business deals). But the actual FACT were so obvious that the courts and other sources really had to accept the FACT.

As Iranian democrats, we have our democratic duties. As Iranians we have to think about post-fundamentalist Iran. The terrorist regime will be overthrown sooner or later, one way or another. Just look at how many dictatorships have fallen in our region in 2011. In Tunisia and Egypt. Libya is on the verge of overthrowing their tyrant. And hopefully soon we will witness the liberation of the people of Syria from their savage tyrant.

Once the terrorist regime is gone, we have to rebuild our beloved Iran. The PMOI has about 5% of support among the Iranian people (in my estimation). In free elections, we will find out. Based on the proportions of the votes they get, they will have their elected representatives in the Majles (depending on the electoral laws in the democratic system we will build).

That process of co-existence of various opposition groups (democrats, monarchists, communists, PMOI, Kurdish parties, etc) has to start today. If we fail to begin the process today, the day the terrorist regime falls will be too late.

I do understand that you disagree with me. I respect you and wish you well.

Best,

Masoud

British Parliment?

Is this the same Britain that was responsible for deposing Mossadegh? Now we are to accept British evidence? Did Dr. Mossadegh not take Britain to court over the oil nationalization.

Now suddenly Britain becomes the source of truth? I am not buying it one moment. Britain has a history of undermining Iran and her aspirations. Anyone specially JM should be mistrustful of them For God's sake they overthrew your man!

This is selective approval when it fits your liking. One day they are our enemy; next source of all truth. It goes beyond any rhyme or reason. Why should I believe those who overthrew Dr. Mossageh? Would anyone please give me a good reason.

Masoud-Jan - I looked up the Links you Provided, AND...

Well, I don't buy the letter printed in the New York times by the British parliamentarian saying that there is no evidence the MEK/MKO/PMOI participated in Iraqi deaths. Absolutely not.

First of all, when I was doing background research won my book (not yet published) about the Iran-Iraq war, I came across declassified documents involving interrogations with senior MKO?MEK/PMOI officials that provided evidence that their camp, at one point, was used by Saddam Hussein as a repositoty for chemical weapons that the interntational inspectors would not find...Then there were witnesses ready to give evidence at Chemical Ali and Saddam Husseins trials who pointed to MEK/MKO/PMOI militants as present and active in the deaths in their villages.

I just don't buy a letter from a single paliamentarian. For all we know he could be sleeping with some MKO/MEK/PMOI member ...and then there are CIA world factbook references, and State Department briefs that until very recently were actually published on their web site alleging their involvement (that for some reason have been pulled)

There needs to be open, televised (on Iranian satelite tv) international court room that can go through all this evidence and refute it. 

There may be a european strategtic convenience to overlook the facts and de-criminalize them - but that does not make it a factual reality that they did not murder people in Iraq.

Then there is oral evidence by Dick Armitage who was stationed in Iran, and was deputy secretary to Colin Powel in the State Department, and he is on record for saying that he was in Iran when they killed two US service men and it is absolutely a fact that MKO/MEK/PMOI did that. And there is other evidence of smuggling activity... I could go on and on.

AND THEIR LEADERSHIP HAS NOT CHANGED DURING THIS WHOLE TIME.

One final point I want to make, I really respect your principled position on this. And I personally have confidence in you as a true democrat  - and Iranian patriot, who does not actually agree with MKO etc. but has a principled stance on this issue. But, Masoud Jan - put a red line arround the MKO - they are murderers and need to show "change we can all believe in" before they can participate in pluralistic democratic Iranian domestic politics. 

MK Monologues

MK does a lot of very long Monologues. Never answers legitimate questions. Then others make libel claims when someone like me dares questions them. God forbid I may actually question why some people defend MEK.

To add insult to injury then I am blamed for "stifling" discussion. I who never threatened anyone with legal action. Nor did I claim libel against anyone. So I am stifling discussion by simply voicing my opinion: that is funny.

One thins I know is that if MEK get US support it will end US influence in the region. Israel already made the mistake of creating Hamas. Now the same Neocon are trying to legitimize MEK. If they succeed they will create worse enemies than Hamas: MEK.

Discussion and propaganda

Dear friends many of you have been making valid arguments against MEK. You have validly pointed out that even in USA criminals are prosecuted. That criminals may not be viewed as political dissidents. 

Rights of criminals are often restricted: they may be deprived of voting;; or running for office. But you are arguing against propaganda. The other side is not unaware of your arguments. It includes very intelligent people. They just don't want to listen.

The reasons for this are not known to me. I would like to know them. The MEK has asked for opposition to release its reasons. I ask MEK and its defenders to release their sources of funding. Until then there will be a shadow over them. What is their motive? Why do intelligent people defend the indefensible? We all know pretty much any nation bans groups attempting violent overthrow of its government. So why should Iran be an exception and let this happen.

Dr. Massoud ... who are you kidding with your scholarship?

Massoud, I read your so-called "scholarly"  articles.  

Your honey-coated generalities are devoid of facts and historical context, and better for teaching a 2nd grade class the basic illusion of the U.S. constitional system -- not its actual and practical application or history, or its relevance to Iran's present situation.

Your words:  

"[T]he US Supreme Court is designed to protect the rights of dissenting minorities from the tyranny of the majority, while making certain that the court itself would not become a dictatorial institution." 

First, where in the U.S. Constitution does it say that the Supreme Court is designed for the purpose of protecting dissenting minorities (particularly terror groups like MEK)?  (The Court also hears about 69 cases a year out of a population of about 250 million - it's not protecting much, especially where the people complain about other branches of government. )

Second, the U.S. Supreme Court is the final arbiter of law; it's chosen not by the people but by the President and the Congress, and those judges sit for life.  Yes, it is a dictatorial institution.  The people have zero say in who is appointed (they can't vote for the judges) and the government tries to make corporate interests happy in the selection process.    

Third, at the time the Constitution was adopted (in 1787) all of the people that ratified it were slave owners.  They bought and sold people and put them to work on plantations the same way a farmer plows his fields with a donkey; take off your rose-colored glasses.  

The U.S. Constitution was adopted in 1787 and up until 1954 (one hundred and sixty seven years later) a little girl was pleading with the U.S. government to try and avoid attending a segregated ("Blacks Only")  school. If that's "justice," people will start to wonder if "injustice" is better.  

(See Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954).) 

And we know up until a few years ago the U.S. was rounding up "middle-eastern" men and shipping them to Guantanamo Bay Cuba to be photographed nude, rub excrement on their bodies, and to be tortured without trial -- all with the full knowledge of the Supreme Court.  

The idea that if Iran adopts a U.S. type Constitution its problems will easily be solved is totally simplistic and unscholarly and fails to discuss the practical history of the U.S. law and its application to the unique Iranian context, region and the people there.  Also the bloodiest war the U.S. ever fought was the U.S. Civil War after the U.S. Constitution was adopted.  Are you ready for that in Iran?  What do you think will happen if you give MEK legal protection?  

Your writing is very simplistic - don't pat yourself on the back too much.  Write a real article that engages in comparative legal, ethnic, and cultural studies; and then we'll talk.  

لاشخورا به جون هم افتادن!

Read this: //aftabnews.ir/vdchqinz623nxwd.tft2.html in the news section!

Ignorance is NOT a Bliss

Disenchanted,

Obviously, you are clueless about over 400 posts I had posted harshly criticizing the PMOI in the Jebhe Melli bb between 2000 and 2004. In my scholarly publications, there are also many factual critiques of the PMOI. One such was posted on this site: see

//iranian.com/main/2008/fatal-attractions

and this article at Iranian.com

//iranian.com/Opinion/2003/June/MK/index.html

Ignorance is not a bliss.

MK

MEK first killed Americans in Iran & MK said nothing!

     then they started killing each other and MK said nothing!

     Then came revolution & they executed Pro regime folks w/o judicial proceedings and MK said nothing!

     Then they started killing everyone with beard in streets of Tehran and MK said nothing.

     They fled to Iraq and joined forces with hell bound Saddam to attack Iran and MK said nothing.

     Then came Golf war and Shia and Kurds rebelled against Saddam. MEK came to Saddam help ran over them with tanks and MK said nothing!

     Then they deprived their own members from freedom & basic human rights like, say dreaming or thinking and MK said nothing!

     Then US state department put MEK on terror list! MK started blogging like crazy pretending he is defdending their civil libery and twisted every fact and logic to defend Rajavi while hiding behind nationalism and accusing everyone else of being pro VF!

      MK = Masoud Kazemzadeh!

"khoda shoma ra shafa bedahad"

BoosBoos,

As they say in Iran "khoda shoma ra shafa bedahad."  Or if one is an atheist, "may the big bang cure you of your [mental] ills."

Masoud

Messing with Massoud

I've slightly modified Massoud Kazemzadeh's quote: 

 --------------------

"  They came first for the PMOI,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a PMOI supporter.

Then they came for the [Al Qaeda],

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a [Al Qaeda member].

Then they came for [the woman who killed her husband with an electrical wire while he slept to get his bank account],

and I didn’t speak up because I was not [the woman who killed her husband with an electrical wire while he slept to get his bank account].

Then they came for the [leader of the Mormon Church who decided to impregnate his neighbor's 13 year old daughter],

and I didn’t speak up because I was not  the [leader of the Mormon Church who decided to impregnate his neighbor's 13 year old daughter] "

--------------------

Massoud Kazemzadeh has shown that he wants  justify the inclusion of terror cells in a so-called "Democratic" Iran; Massoud-jan your views are from outer space.

Excellent views

For views of other pro-democracy Iranians see:

//iranian.com/main/news/2011/08/19-6

Kafar hameh ra beh kish khish pendarad

oh my blogs certainly indicates I am pro VF! :-)

by Disenchanted on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:31 PM PDT

You claim you are "strongly against ideology and leadership of MEK" but otherwise do everything and twist every logic to cover up for their crimes in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere! Go figure...

I know it is so shameful to claim to be a MEk/POMI member. But may be it's time to come out of closet!

====================

MK: As they saying goes: kafar hameh ra be kish khish pendarand.

oh my blogs certainly indicates I am pro VF! :-)

         You claim you are "strongly against ideology and leadership of MEK" but otherwise do everything and twist every logic to cover up for their crimes in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere! Go figure...

          I know it is so shameful to claim to be a MEk/POMI member. But may be it's time to come out of closet!

Nazis = Khomeini's Supporters

Disenchanted,

Nazis were the brutal savage rulers in Germany so after their overthrow they were banned. Baathis were the brutal savage rulers in Iraq so after their overthrow they were banned. According to this logic, the VF regime are the brutal savage rulers in Iran, so after their overthrow, the supporters of Khomeini should be banned.

:-)

Yes, there is a HUUUUGE DIFFERENCE between Khomeini (and you) on the one hand and Mossadegh (and me) on the other.

Lets hope that people like me win and people like you lose. Iran’s future democracy, freedom, and human rights depends on this.

:-) 

Masoud

Dear G. Rahmanian

Dear G. Rahmanian,

Thank you for the info.  I did not know that.  I had not been following this as much as I should have.

Best,

Masoud

P.S. Please participate on this discussion and contribute.

Why We Should Stand Up for Civil Liberties

Dear Ayatoilet,

Obviously several courts of law in the UK and EU have analyzed the documents and heard the arguments, and then decided that the PMOI is NOT a terrorist group. This is significant because their governments really really wanted to keep the PMOI on their lists so that they could easily have lucrative business deals with the vf regime and good diplomatic relations with the terrorist regime.

As you may know, the governments in EU really wanted to release the agents the IRI had sent to assassinate many opposition figures (Bakhtiar, Sharafkandi, etc). One of the priorities of the governments in EU is business dealings with the vf regime (it would be good for their economy, employment, access to oil). They tend to place money above human rights of the Iranian people.

Fortunately, their court systems are independent and have fairly prosecuted the members of the vf regime assassinations teams.

The same with the court cases in the past few years dealing with the PMOI.

The same in the U.S. Federal court. The court issued a writ asking the State Department to review the case.

We need to be honest and fair, including with those with whom we disagree. We should not allow our opposition to the PMOI to cloud our judgement. We have to be honest and fair.

Everyone knows that it is more popular to fan the flames of popular prejudice than to stand up for civil liberties of unpopular groups. In my class on the subject, I give a 4 hour lecture on civil liberties. I begin first by asking the students who thinks it is a good idea to have freedom for the KKK to have its group and rallies. Very few hands go up. Then I ask, how many think we should fire a professor who is a communist? A lot of hands go up. Same with the rights for atheists. Then, I read the First Amendment. Then, I proceed to talk about a number of laws in the U.S. from the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798. Then about the Sedition Acts of 1918 (and earlier 1917), and then the McCarran Act of 1950, and the Smith Act......

By the time, I am finished with the lecture on civil liberties, my students understand the significance of civil liberties for the proper functioning of democracy. I end the with asking the same questions which I began the class with. There is always a dramatic change. There are always a few that still oppose civil liberties after the 4 hour lecture. There are always people who want to ban and repress the views they do not like. That is why the ACLU is NOT a popular organization in the U.S.

That is why a good constitution creates protections for minorities with a Bill of Rights (civil liberties).

And I can tell you first hand that in February and March 1979, when the JM stood up for the civil liberties and due process for the monarchists, we were NOT popular. Many opportunists like Khomeini and the Tudeh Party began the propaganda against JM and "liberals" as supporters of American imperialism. Just about everybody wanted to kill all the monarchists. Khomeini and Tudeh Party began the call and then Fadaian and PMOI followed suit. The sole political party or organization that stood up for due process for the monarchists was the JM. And only a handful from Nehzat Azadi (e.g., Mehdi Bazargan, Abbas AmirEntezam who soon later left NA and joined JM) joined us.

In politics and in life, a decent human being (as well as a political party) has to have principles and morals. Whether these principles are popular or not is not germane. The point is that we have to stand up for these cherished principles. A decent polity can ONLY be established if we uphold these principles, fight for them, protect them and cherish them. Fanning the flames of prejudice is unethical. It will provide short term gain.

The difference between statesmen and demagogue is precisely on this issue. Does one stand up for principles or does one use prejudice to gain popularity. Mossadegh was a statesman. Ahmadinejad and Khomeini are/were demagogues. A statesman teaches his or her constituents. A demagog manipulate their emotions and biases to gain power. We need statesmen and women and should avoid demagogues.

Standing up for the human rights of the monarchists was very very unpopular in February and March 1979. And caused us to come under vicious attacks from far right and far left. But it was one of the proudest moments in JM history.

Let me end with my adaptation of the famous writing in the photo to this blog.

They came first for the PMOI,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a PMOI supporter.

Then they came for the Bahais,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a Bahai.

Then they came for the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan and Komeleh,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a Kurd.

Then they came for the monarchists,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a monarchist.

Then they came for the communists,

and I didn’t speak up because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the Jebhe Melli,

and by that time no one was left to speak up.

We need to learn from history so that we would not repeat it. I choose to stand up NOW before it is too late.

Best,

Masoud

Nazis can not form a party in Germany. Baathists can not have

     ...a party in Iraq. Al qaeda can not have an organization in US or Europe! MEK can not exist as a party in Iran now or ever!

        Please stop being "holier than thou"! MEK is recognized by Iranians as a terorrist/traitor group and has no place in Iran! 

      By the way thanks for the compliments!

Dear Dr. Kazemzadeh:

As I'm sure you are well aware, Mr. Hoshyar Zebari, Iraq's foreign minister played a critical role in removing PMOI from EU's FTO list! The mullahs propaganda is not helping them anymore.

Masoud Jan - You are wrong they are murderers

You are the one falling for MKO/PMOI/MEK propaganda. I have provided you with links (look lower in this string) of state department documents and other briefiings and I told you to do some google searches on their role as Saddam's hench men (i.e. part of his internal security aparatus). They have definitely killed Iraqis. They are murderers. Their leadership should be tried in the international court of justice in the hague...then jailed or hanged.

You must read the detailed accounts of their murders inside Iraq. I am not even talking about murders in Iran, or murders of Americans. They are not freedom fighters ...they are murderers. Please do not degrade George Washington by comapring the MEK/MKO/PMOI to them.

Please do not defend the indefensible. 

And also, please let the people on this site know that while you are a JM supporter, you do not speak for the JM. JM is a great institution in Iranian democracy....whether or not people agree with the JM, we should NOT write them off as a political entity or force...and not allow JM to be associated with the MKO/MEK/PMOI.

Dear Ayatoilet

Ayatoilet jaan,

You are making the assertion that the PMOI has committed murder. This is a false assertion. The PMOI has killed fundamentalist terrorists. The PMOI has this right exactly like George Washington had the right to kill the British colonial forces, and President Obama has the right to kill Osama bin Laden, and the U.S. Marines to kill al Qaeda terrorists.

There is no credible evidence that the PMOI has killed Iraqi. The fundamentalist terrorist regime’s Ministry of Intelligence alleges that the PMOI guerrillas have killed innocent Iranians.

As a matter of FACT, the VF Regime’s Ministry of Intelligence has murdered many people and then blamed them on the PMOI. For example, the Ministry of Intelligence killed about 2 dozen innocent worshippers in Imam Reza Shrine and then blamed it on the PMOI. The Ministry of Intelligence murdered a Christian convert (if I remember correctly his name was Mehdi Dibaj or something like that) and then blamed it on the PMOI. The dude was in prison for many years (if I remember correctly something like 10 years), then the regime released him from prison under international pressure, and then murders him.

We have to be aware and not to fall for the LIES and PROPAGANDA of the Ministry of Intelligence. It it their job to lies and attack the opposition groups. It is our job to counter their propaganda.

Best,

Masoud