Fighting Words

Q

The subject of this blog is how we, as Iranians, treat each other differently than we treat others.  My observation of CA's behavior is that he attacked users on this site, Iranian.com, and even threatened to report one user to the FBI, when under similar circumstances, but with a non-Iranian crowd, he did not engage in hat type of conduct and acted with respect and civility toward others.  Now, in fairness to him, he is not the only one.  As I have mentioned several times already, I consider myself, as part of the community, as part of this problem.  So, I don't think that I have been unfair and opportunistic.  And the fact that he was blocked (twice) does indicate bad behavior.  And if I get blocked, then it has to be as a result of bad behavior on my part.  BTW, CA had plenty of opportunities to provide his side of the story.  But unfortunately all that I saw in his last few days on this site were blogs and long comments about other users.  

One more point about IC users.  The way I see it, most of the site's users are people who live outside of Iran.  They have either chosen to live outside of Iran because they don;t like the way things are under the IRI, or they have been forced out either because of political or economic situations under the IRI.  Either way, they do not like the IRI.  And really, I cannot blame them for coming out in full force against IRI supporters.  The fact is that the IRI has a HUGE propaganda empire where it and its goons dominate discussions and do not allow any opposing points of view.  Sites like this are the last refuge for anti-IRI Iranians to discuss issues and exchange opinions.  They simply cannot tolerate the presence of IRI supporters on this small niche.   

I agree with Hamsadeh Ghadimi about Free Speech

"there are certain policies/restrictions that i.com has in place that goes beyond what is considered "free speech." 

I agree with that, this site supports printing of Hate Speech. I have never seen anything like this in my life, some of the blogs printed abusing Bahai prophets are just disgusting, but the User brags “Nothing is sacred, right?” to rub it into faces of the Minority in question. Captain Ayhab was not the worst perpetrator on this website. There are people using own names who constantly intimidate using abusive language (which I think is abuse and attack) others and also when in a corner call them Spies/ Agents (which is a desperate type of Irooni Bazi). I know they have been blocked several times but JJ allows them to return. And so many of their comments are deleted for being abusive but they are not blocked. So what has happened to Captain Ayhab in my eyes is inconsistent use of blocking individuals.  

Take a good look at the posts of this person:

//204.232.242.254/main/member/covenant

While me are mentioning Captain Ayhab by name, why not mention others who are still around and abusing? Why pick on one person?

OnlyIran Jan

Of course I like to have a civil conversation. But lets face it Ayhab was by no means the only one who is uncivil. We get very passionate. Rightfully so! When I see someone defending the IRI I get so pissed off that sometime I am unable to control myself. When I see someone trashing Ferdowsi I get mad as hell. So I may say a few thing less than civil!

A hard core Muslim probably gets pissed off at people who trash Islam; Islamism or even IRI. So while I don't agree with them I see why they start to scream and yell at us.

The question is: how far do we go? If we restrict too much then we end up with a forum of like minded people. I disagree with Ayhab say 80 % of the time. But I have developed a thick skin and don't get bothered.

The thing that worries me more is when governments restrict speech. Ayhab can always set up his own blog and rant all he wants. However if this was a government then he would not be able to. That to me is a bigger issue than a private blog kicking someone out.

Boom, Now that we are on same blog

Boom, I wrote on that Rezaii blog what I believed and you wrote what you believed. You are complaining because I wrote about you on another blog.  However, few nights ago, you were going on and on about Rezaii on IC and she probably does not even read IC. So what is the big deal about the fact that I wrote about you on another blog on IC? It is not like I was hiding it. 

Also, Hojjati is jj and one t. 

about fake ids and the 'meltdown' on ic

i really wasn't going to get into this. but anonymity and ids keeps cropping up on this thread.

i'm still sort of hiding, but some 'fallout' from that whole episode which is the subject of onlyiran's blog is that as a direct result of that whole 'fiasco' i changed my avatar and decided to expose part of my identity as a gesture of protest on the one hand, and a gesture of respect on the other.

i noticed a lot of details of identity are creeping out of the woodwork for other bloggers here. i also understand why they are hesitant.

ps iraniandudee: are you sure you want to know? it's not in the u.s. of a. it's in the ME, where lots of people really admire iranian culture.

dudee,

Yes, I can see how it might be difficult to see the mob mentality if you are in agreement with the mob. But actually, you're wrong. I've been to plenty of streets. Nobody there bothers with the kind of wasteful debates and self-righteous rants that go on here on IC. There are people both pro and anti Government in Iran. Definitely no one is "bikar" enough to follow people around under fake identity to find out of they are "IRI agents" like people do on IC. They might oppose government policies, but they are generally moderate and reasonable about it.

Second, even if they did do this exact kind of thing, that does not negate the "mob mentality" behavior that I pointed out.

No mob mentality here

You're just seeing it that way cause most Iranians are anti-islamic regime.You'll see the same thing if you go to most streets of Iran.

humanbeing

I'm wondering which schools they teach Middle-Persian Pahlavi at? Is it the one's only in california with big ammount of Iranians residing in them or what?

What's your malfunction, Anahid Hojatti?

She writes, "I was on IC and there was this Boom sha... (I don't care to remember rest of his ID). Answering to his comments or just reading them had no use except making me upset."

Yeah, I made you "upset" because you were patently pathetic in your comments in the Aravane Rezaie blog, saying that the negative comments on the Iranian female tennis player were an example of jealous Iranian men going after Iranian women, yet again. Here it is:  

"There we go again. An Iranian woman is successful and some Iranian men are "hamisheh dar sahneh" to bring her down."

Madame, you have every right to say absolutely asinine things on the internet, and I have the right to point out your pathetic line of thinking, mercilessly if I so choose. If you can't stand the heat, don't wander into the kitchen and utter patently stupid things. You really are an insecure sort, aren't you? Bad-mouthing me on an entirely different blog, ex-parte back-stabbing is more like it. If you're gonna criticize me by name, have the guts and the decency to do it when I'm around, so I can defend myself.

Pathetic.

not sure

what to think of this blog. perhaps onlyiran, one of the most abrasive and abusive bloggers around (in my experience), is reflecting on his own behaviour by picking on captain's performance. in a roundabout way, this would be good news. 

but then i see how pompous and intransigent some are with mehrdad's comments on this very blog, and i wonder...

Peace

OnlyIran, there is some truth here, in spite of yourself,

A few points are worth mentioning. Yes, the Googoosh concert behavior is very much analogous to what is going on here. What are the basics of the comparison?

* Unfair treatment.
* No respect for other point of view.
* Complete opportunism and selfishness at every turn.

Your unfair comparison of "similarities" between "the crowd" and "Captain Ayahab's behavior", reeks of all three.

Your post ends with "looking at the mirror" but does not have the decency to be objective about Ayhab's situation. The title uses "Captain Ayhab's behavior", which portrays this a one-sided black and white issue already. You have already found him guilty and cynically use his being banned --something that could easily happen to you or many other people-- to "affirm" it without the slightest attempt of understanding things from his point of view. This is of course, the heart of the problem.

First of all, to the so-called "free speech" loving people, constantly belitteling and disrespecting others, only because of the subject of their blogs (for example Islam or Palestine), I say relax. The most common subject on Iranian.com is neither Palestine, nor Islam nor even Iran. The most common subject on Iranian.com is actually Iranian.com. If that doesn't explain the level of narcisssim, you're not paying attention.

Second, there is mob mentality, like the crowd you describe going on here and we all see it. Captain Ayahab, however, has never been part of the mob. In my view consistent with what I see, the "mob" is a group of angry middle aged self-appointed "IRI hunters" on this website that see it as some kind of religious duty to viciously attack and slander others based only on their own "suspicion". Do anti Monarchists or various other political followers do the same? Do people defend IRI too? Sure, there is some of that. But no one can disagree with who the majority of the mobs are. This is simply a reflection on the generational, social and socio-economic status of the kind of Iranians living in the west who are likely to kill time on this website. Not a surprise at all.

Third, there was great opportunity for a kind of peaceful, respectful and understanding exchange of ideas when the site first allowed self-publishing. But this was quickly killed by single-minded politically rigid attitudes and again the inharent lack of respect on the part of the mob. I think to my own early engagements on this website and the kind of ideological fascism I witnessed from people which quickly destroyed any space for peaceful exchange of ideas.

Why is it this way? I don't know. I guess we really don't have the culture of democracy, which is not a surprise given brutal dictatorships that have ruled over Iran for nearly all of its history. IN addition, I think the traditional cultural attitudes that have acted as social lubricants which we grew up with do not apply to the web.

For example, in Iran we are always nice to our neighbors and guests at least when we see them face to face. There are unwritten rules and norms and recirprocity that happens in our culture. The anonymity of this website has made these rules obsolete. Now people can be "anonymous assholes" and there is no social consequence. This is partly why it is utterly unfair of Javid to tolerate attacks and slander on people with real names and not distinguish between them and the said assholes. This, in turn drives people to abuse the their freedom of speech by using fake names to get away with something they would never do with their own name.

If he can't bring himself to make people use their own names, at least Javid can and should restrict people to one identity. Other sites do it. He has already exposed some losers who abused his site by using dozens of different names and attacking people.

He does not need to "enforce" every single case, nobody else does that anyway. He just simply needs to say that registrants should not be sockpuppets as a rule and then ban only those who are found to violate it.

regarding free speech: i

regarding free speech: i think that vpk rightly points out to the private nautre of i.com.  there are certain policies/restrictions that i.com has in place that goes beyond what is considered "free speech."  all those who do register and comment in this site have either knowingly or unknowingly (didn't read the fine prints) agreed to the policies of this site.  i may not agree with banning of this individual but whether i'm a minority or a majority on this view, it's irrelevant.  now, if the same individual came to my house and raised hell and i didn't like it, i will promptly end his free speech and kick him out of my house. and i wouldn't lose sleep if someone called me undemocratic or anti free speech.  :D  is that contradictory or contextually consistent?

........

It seems to me the so-called "ban" is to ban the username, not the person behind the username.......it is possible CA is on IC with a different username.....maybe he is monitoring this blog and reading the comments ......

.............

The reality is One C A DOWN ,10 more to go.            Maziar

free speech vs. libel

Free speech is not inhibited, but litigated if one's words are defaming another one's reputation by lies.  Why else would Nazis and KKK be allowed to operate, broadcast and march in the US. 

In the case of CA, his words annoyed some readers to complaint to JJ, I suppose!  Maybe JJ can comment why CA was banned instead of speculation by us. 

Since this is a private site, JJ has the power of moderation the way he sees fit.

VPK Jaan

Perhaps my attempt at an analogy was not clear enough.  I was trying to compare the online community to the real world.  The government in the U.S. tries to curb speech at many levels.  For instance, the seven "dirty words" that you cannot utter on TV (unless it's premium cable channels such as HBO)  But even with premium channels there are limits on speech.  For instance, you cannot show an X-rated film on those channels.  Even on the Playboy channel or pay per view adult channels you cannot show actual intercourse.  Those are limits on free speech.  And trust me, all these issues have been litigated up and down the court system in the U.S. Or how about obscenity laws?  Such as not been able to have a bumper sticker that says the word s**t on it that a state banned (I forgot which one it was) several years ago.  These are all forms of free speech that have been limited by the government.

The point that I was trying to make was that we should have an environment where we can have a civilized discussion of issues without screaming at each other.  That's all. 

Speech Limits

When does the state or Federal government limit free speech? Not on the internet or on cable. Not in published books. However this is not a matter of government policy at all so I am not going to go into it.

I know that this is a private web site. JJ may limit any speech he want without giving any reason. However the result will be damaging. I am not arguing that he does not have the right; he does. I am arguing that is it a bad idea. Moderation is an arbitrary system and not subject to review. Why? Because this is a private site. So what we are discussing it not rights that may be litigated.

We are discussing whether it is good policy. I don't think it is. Obviously other people disagree with me. So I guess we have to agree to disagree. 

VPK

VPK - free speech and the online community

well, the online community is pretty similar in nature to the "real" world. In the real world we have a neutral arbitor who is tasked with identifying what is free speech and what is disturbing the peace.  The courts decide that issue.  So, in the virtual world, the "court" is the moderation apparatus.  Each site needs to have a good one, and if proper rules are in place, and are applied uniformly by a neutral moderator, then everyone can express his / her point without creating chaos.  

The IRI, being the lawless clusterf**ck that it is cannot be compared to a democratic system.  But look at the U.S. for example.  Federal and state governments try to limit speech at times, and those issues are always litigated before independent courts.   

OnlyIran

There is a difference between yelling in the streets and posting on a blog. When someone yells I have no choice but to hear them. However with a blog I simple may chose to ignore their postings. 

So lets turn this around. What if IRI says that pro democracy statements disturb the peace? Do they get to ban it? They do now. It is the exact same argument. We need to lead by example. If we are not willing to tolerate abusive speech then they can ban any speech by labeling it abusive. It is best to not ban anyone. Beleive me it will come back to bite us more than it will bite them.

VPK

I disagree.  I think that abusive people should be blocked.  It happens on every site.  There's a difference between that and blocking free speech.  It's kind of like saying that a guy who walks on the street and yells at everyone should be allowed to do so because he is exercising free speech.  If we allow that, then we will have anarchy and no logical arguments will get through.

I did not

Agree with what Ayhab said many times. But I totally disagree with blocking him. This is not a good lesson for those Iranians who claim to be pro democarcy. There is no democracy when we shut down opposing views.

Shame on us.

VPK

sorry but you could have fooled me

sorry but you could have fooled me.

he is blocked? can i ask why?

if this is not a lynch mob gathering then what is it? tribute to someone you do not agree with PERJIAN Estyle?

darveesh

No lynching here.  As my blog states, I use him as an example of how Iranians treat each other (myself included), and I ask readers to reflect on that issue.

The reason it says "error" is because he was blocked.   

Who are you people lynching?

can someone show me some of this guys posting, writings, anything?

Why is it that when you search that name it shows error?

and when is the cross burning ceremony?

hamsade ghadimi:

Our exchange is pass its usefulness. Time to move on.

Mehrdad

HG

I agree.  But this whole "irooni bazi" thing is rather annoying.  The whole concept assumes that we, as Iranians, have to act a certain way that is contrary to the societal norms.  Why should we do that?  To make ourselves look stupid, and stand out as a sore thumb?  

It would be nice to have some stats on the business relationship issue among Iranians. My brother goes to an Iranian mechanic (he's in a different town) and has no complaints.  I took my car to an Iranian mechanic once and he charged me double what he quoted.  he said the car needed more work.  Perhaps it did.  But he no longer has his shops.  I probably would go back if he still had a shop, just because I'm a firm believer that when I need something, if there is an Iranian who can do it, I will give the business to him / her, as a matter of principle.  I rather pay an Iranian than a non-Iranian.

as far as Mehrdad, I think the back and forth is useless.  His posts speak for themselves.  There are a couple of more of these Palestine-first guys on this site.  Here's a sample blog:

 //iranian.com/main/blog/mola-nasredeen/palestine-peace-not-apartheid

COP - VPK & Anahid

COP: It's funny that you bring up the "know it all" concept.  How true!  We Iranians seem to know everything about everything.  A relative recently went to a travel agency inside Iran to buy a ticket to come to the U.S. and got a lecture on U.S. immigration laws from the agent in Iran who has never been to the U.S. (advice was wrong, of course).  I guess if we weren't know it alls, we wouldn't be where we are today.  btw, also very funny on the 2 blog a day thing.  The guy was a comment-seeker too.  He would write on every issue that he thought will get him to the "most discussed" list.  He even did a "moshaereh blog" recently because that always got a lot of comments.   

VPK: True that Huffpost and others are more strict when it comes to commenting.  Perhaps that's a factor, but it also doesn't explain the other "in person" lack of respect such as the incident at the concert.  Or perhaps the good "captain" used to take out all the frustrations that he had at Huffpost at us here on IC!!!

Anahid: I don't think that the problem is multiple id's.  As VPK pointed out, one can get multiple email addresses and set up multiple accounts.  Also, there are very cheap softwares that mask ip addresses, where that can't even be used to stop multiple account users.  The problem is with the person itself.  remember, the Captain didn't even use a fake id.  He used the same one that he was blocked with before.  So, if I may add, while I believe that JJ believes in second chances, I think that once a person is blocked, he shouldn't be allowed to come back.  

.....

Hi! Human-being,

   You really don't need artificial prodding.....you really communicate very well with everyone here.......apparently you like different languages a lot.....I read one your post in Hebrew (?), maybe?

   please take care! 

bavafa

what mistake?  do you have a comprehension problem?  refer to my last 2 comments.  your 43 contributed blogs and news pieces are predominantly about palestinians, israelis and iraqis.  that's an observation.  as i said, i don't have a problem with people who are pre-occupied about arabs and israelis.  if you're responding to my comments, then do just that.  if i'm wrong, clarify.  don't send me after nokhod siah. :)

hamsade ghadimi:

Is my bivafaie on the account of correcting your mistake or are you suggesting that the links provided in my response are made up?

Did you bother to even look and verify or is it similar to your earlier notion?

I hope you are not working as an auditor? To see the whole picture and making a more intelligent assessment, it may require more then the quickest path to the conclusion we like to make.

Mehrdad