Ramin Tork

MM, easy there tiger..

"Imagine if LATimes publishes a story on 300,000 Iranian-Americans objecting to the expedited sale of these anti-riot trucks to the Islamic Repulic by the collaborative communist China to quell the Green movement?  The Chinese losing face in freedom-loving America?  Definitely.. "

You're telling me, I/ or someone else should help send 300,000 letters to LA TImes.

Let's see how that works: 

I write the letter (2 hours) -----cost $ 0

hmmmm I use my Iranian way of thinking.....    cost $ 0

I then make 300,000 copies of my letter at 7 cents each

I then buy 300,000 stamps at 43 cents each....

Damn, MM no one will do that- are you kidding , you expect someone to spend $ 150,000 dollars just to change the minds at LA TImes.  Heck, I could buy a whole page with that money in NYTIMES.

MM

I'm sorry but you are to a great extend right.You would think you would get more support from people and get more action when IRI wants to pour boiling water on people, but somehow the culture of celebrities, large breasts, love/hate Islam debates sometimes wins. Having said that there are many people like you and I who care and want to take action. I didn't see your blog, but when I saw Shifteh's blog on the same subject I offered help, I offer to setup a petition and would be happy to send letters to the Chinese embassy.

As for my CV, I will provide full details if I stand for a public office, or an organization representation!

I will draw more concerte plans, will not hold my breath for a positive answer but will make a proposal to JJ over this. If it doesn't fly I will carry on because like you I'm not just going to sit there, watch TV and see boiling checmicals being poured on my fellow Iranians. 

All I have seen at Iranian.com is talk, talk & more talk

I am sorry to say it.  But, if you expect anyone around here to do anything, like action, you may have another thing coming to you (as my late father-in-law used to say).  Look at the action-point in my comment below that I suggested regarding the anti-riot trucks, which I repeated again.  Not a single darn response from anyone at Iranian.com who are all screeming "bloody murder" going from blog to blog repeatedly.  How do you expect to change that attitude around here?

All I have seen at Iranian.com is talk, disagreements, insults and more talk.  I would have had a better luck with “an action” taking this case to NIAC, AIC, or writing it myself like mahmoudg did.    

Also, you are advocating a global movement, but say that you will wing it as we go along, and ask other human rights stars like Shirin Ebadi to join after you have formed the organization!  I would rather see a more concrete plan of action.  And, I have not seen a single nod from JJ who will bear the brunt of this action.

Lastly, while I admire your global thinking, as per my last communication, I still do not know you (CV?) and do not know what you did for the anti-apartheid movement (reference?).  However, I promise not ask you for your elementary school or Farsi literacy credentials (see previous comments if you do not know what I am talking about).  Sorry, I could not help that last gelaayeh.

Thanks.

--------------------------------------

mahmoudg/Shifteh: make a form-letter for the Iranian.com readers

by MM on Fri Jan 01, 2010 09:41 PM PST

Good job mahmoudg,

Could we change this scathing email to a scathing form-letter that we send to the manufacturor, the Chinese embassy, and especially LATimes (where else???).  This will make it easy on our Iranian.com readers as well as others, if we advertize it, to agree with the form-letter (or change something first) and just click and send the form-letter to the above destinations. 

Imagine if LATimes publishes a story on 300,000 Iranian-Americans objecting to the expedited sale of these anti-riot trucks to the Islamic Repulic by the collaborative communist China to quell the Green movement?  The Chinese losing face in freedom-loving America?  Definitely..

If all agree, can JJ help set this form-letter up for everyone?  Thanks in advance.

MM

Once we have an organization, we will approach known respectable figures on the outside (or inside for that matter) who can go on the list of patrons or endorse us. If we have the numbers and explain our mission they will come, after all it is a humanitarian/political organization in favour of freedom of Iran. Because all organs are elected and all action such as who speaks to whom is dicussed before hand and brought forward to members policy would come from gross root.

Because It would be an international network we have Iranians in every Capital that can act as local representatives, and if need be the senior elected members would travel if they have to in order to represent us just like how it is done today. Activity such as writing letters, creating petitions, and Marches would need the power of the internet and telephone to coordinate. Look at how much the people in Iran have acheived.

We would look for Grants and philanthropists to help with the budget and with the membership fee from policy making members there will be money to take action. Most of these actions do not require money or if you work in collaboration with existing activitists you can share the cost.

Keep in mind that membership is not exclusive so, for instance someone who is our member does not need to give their membership somewhere else, and the organization is mainly a vehicle to enhance existing opposition campaign.

Shaming the shameless? You don't shame the shameless, you shame the EU companies who would risk their share prizes or the Chinese by a threat to their trade by means of consumer power.

EU companies is covered with my petiton, Chinese we could start writing letters, if the Chinese authorities recieve hunderds of thousands of letters saying that we would run a campign to stop people buying Chinese goods or they better stiop selling technology used to oppress the Iranian people they might take notice.

I think there is already political pressure from Governments to do this, in the EU case U.S. Government has already taken action, our action would block the last leak of such trade. We must make the Chinese look so bad when they sell water cannons anti riot vehicles that pour boiling water and chemicals on our people and put them to shame, but my EU petition with a small number of signatures, or another petition for the Chinese trade with only a handful of people is not going to do it, we need to organize people and get millions to sign these petitions.

Iranian human rights persona? Venue? Your references?

Persona: How do you plan to involve well known Iranian human rights persona like Shirin Ebadi, Shadi Sadr, and the Boroumand Sisters?  Again, your organization will gain more credibility if you have famous human rights stars with you to get you into closed doors, and, a coordinated effort that does not dilute each other's message is more preferable.  I challenge you to find many who are against Shirin Ebadi and .....

Venue: If you want to affect US laws, you almost have to be partially based in Washington D.C.  Do you have plans to do so? Same with the EU capital.

References: The South African anti-apartheid embargo is the only sanctions case that I know of which worked, and that is because ALL, the governments, the people as well as the companies were shamed to walk away from South Africa.  How do you plan to shame a shameless theocracy, and bring other states like China and Russia into your circle?  Please refer me to some of your work in the case of the South African embargo.

Dear MM

Defeating a bill in the congress, or changing a law in EU is exactly the sort of thing we need. Law change shows lobby power.

Marches, rallies, writing of letters to law makers, collection of signatures for petition, and raising the profile of the struggle inside Iran. The difference as I mentioned earlier is to use the anti-apartheid model and not just the concerned Iranian community but also the active non-Iranians i.e. the student unions , musicans, and celebrities to join in but in a larger way than what we've had and give a constant presence to the Iranian Human rights campaign ( This is how it was back in the 80s with anti-apartheid). We've already had interest but did not work with such groups to do this in a consistent, long lasting way.

Now rather than do this via one or two  U.S. based organizations, this should be global and better coordinated.

We already have a global organization with a large membership, it is called iranian.com and it represents views of Iranians from all walks of life, if we put the Humanitarian/political wheels on this vehicle you've got yourself and "International Iranian Congress" and instead of Blogs and random articles calling for action we can organize the campaign better. As I mentioned you keep it as a seperate entity but add a new tab in iranian.com just as the Kodoom.com events is an extra tab.

Furthermore, how are your methods different than other? 

This orgainzation is more than just a Humanitarian organization, it will be a strong lobby and its elected leadership would sit at negotiating tables with policymakers and represent us.

Why not rely on existing organizations in U.S. to expand and do this?

Because of the issue of trust, or the constraints of their existing structure or manifesto.

I'm brainstrorming here, feel free to add or change the idea until we all come up with something.

How do you intend to coordinate with other persona/organizations without diluting the message?

I don't the members and Governors will do this. This orgaization will not be yet another Iranian cult of personality type orgaization, the democratic vote will decide the direction. It would also vote on all aspects including leadership, policy etc. I've already given more info in my earlier comments.

Dear Benross

Thanks for your support by the way.

The logic behind such an organization is to provide support for people inside Iran so that we can channel their voice or in the circumstances that they decide to go on general strike or face even a bigger threat than they already are i.e. escalation of violence, a strong lobby of Iranians would provide assistance. Ultimately people in Iran decide on their future but we on the outside can play a key role. We also buy them time so if IRI decides that a War is a means to save their skin or even if the foreign powers decide that they rather choose war the presence of a strong Humanitarian Iranian lobby could step in and try to delay such a war. I know with our Daee jaan Napolean mentality many would say that if they decide to have a War there is nothing to stop them but the movement inside Iran has demonstrated that public perception can be altered.

Marge and Ramin

Ramin,

We have many famous Iranian persona/organizations that are active in the human rights campaign area within and outside Iran.  The $25/year fee is not significant to the ones in the west.  The key questions in my mind are:

How do you intend to coordinate with other persona/organizations without diluting the message?  Furthermore, how are your methods different than other?  If you think you can help others, like Shirin Ebadi, in their endeavors, I would prefer coordination of a massive attack rather than a fragmented approach by many organizations.

Example of other human rights persona and organizations that come to my mind right away:

* Shirin Ebadi (well, no need to explain)

* Three Iranian women human rights campaigners, Shadi Sadr, Ladan Boroumand and Roya Boroumand received the Lech Walesa Prize, in Gdansk, Poland. (2009)  

Shadi Sadr: founder & director of Raahi, an organisation which provides legal advice for women in Iran, and founder of Zanan-e Iran (Women of Iran)).

Ladan Boroumand and Roya Boroumand who work for human rights and democracy in Iran.  They also have authored seminal papers in Islamism such as Terror, Islam, And Democracy.

* Other Iranian organizations, such as NIAC, are also getting active in the area of human rights, at least vocally.

Just FYI Marge,

After 9/11 (date?), I would like to think that a writing campaign by us was partly responsible for defeating a bill in the Congress that would deport out all Iranian visitors and students from the US, and furthermore, prevent issuance of visas to ALL persons of Iranian descent.  I personally wrote a 2-page letter to my congressman (a co-sponsor of the bill), based on a plea by Trita Parsi who knew about the bill.

Dear Ramin

As you know, I supported your initiatives in every occasion. But my personal answer to your both questions are no and no.

Human rights issue is a subsequent of something larger. As long as we don't answer the main issue, which is IRI and its alternative, the rest is consequential issues with consequential activists doing whatever they can do. It will never ever become a widespread 'social' issue, attracting thousands and thousands of Iranians to participate and contribute. If we do move toward preparing the alternative to this regime, and present it in a convincing way, not only Iranians are willing to contribute $25 annually, but they will do so on daily basis, if they could afford.

So essentially, we are not aiming at the same thing. And what you are aiming, has not the potential -in my view- to attract a large scale support. 

"I Have a Crush on Alex Trebek" and benross

Do you see a need for a new Global Humanitarian/political organization which uses the backbone of the IC community? As I described it earlier in my comments?

One which is democratically elected? One that we control by our votes all the way including the leadership?

If so would you pay a $25 annual fee?

benross

my other problem with the iranians who do not trust NIAC is that rather than let it go, they continue to throw out accusations. Listen the more you talk about them, the more free advertising you give them thereby boosting their profile. Do you know how much AIPAC thrives, thrives, and enjoys people who disparage them? They just use it as ammo to brand people as anti-Semites. NIAC operates the same way. They use this accusatory tone as a way of saying "we must be doing something right if the right wingers are against us." That's a big leap, even for a die hard lefty like me.

I would never, ever give a dollar to NIAC, not because I think it will support suicide bombers or the Islamic Republic, but because as an organization, it is useless in really addressing the concerns of a basic Iranian American or his or her family.

Now when these NIAC employees go to the office everyday, I wonder what they really are fighting for. They seem educated, but again, it seems like a wasted effort. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but this is what I see. 

50 dollars? To do what? Buy ads? Buy infomercials on CNN? Give me a break.  

now maybe this pointless "mission statement" of theirs bothers some people because it is "shady," and you are certainly definitely absolutely entitled to suspect them. But years have gone by with the same accusations. Give me something to bite my teeth into.

As I said, their concept was

As I said, their concept was "response to AIPAC." Well that's stupid because AIPAC is stupid to begin with.

Excellent point... and I can't believe I'm saying that! 

no ramintork: the purpose of NIAC is dumb

As I said, their concept was "response to AIPAC." Well that's stupid because AIPAC is stupid to begin with. It is a firm that fights for Israel's interests in the name of weakening non-Israeli neighbors or reporting on Israeli crimes. They are there to enforce a double standard. Neither is it an Iranian body's work to respond to these vile people, nor is it timely.

The priorities for an Iranian American family is not whether they can have an answer to AIPAC. It's whether they can travel to Iran without problems or secure visas for their families. I don't think NIAC is involved in any of this stuff. They're just in the echo chamber of Washington and sorry, that doesn't impress me. Asking me for $$ is pointless, and in this economy, answering to AIPAC doesn't rank up there with the rent, mortgage, or other investments.

I don't want such an organization for a bunch of Iranian lawyers. If you're seeking a regime change organization, NIAC isn't going to be that either. They have a vague and shapeless purpose. I'm not impressed with them as much as I am with Trita Parsi's intellect. He's wasting it on NIAC.  

Dear mannya2001

You are absolutely right, at face value my aspirations seem delusional, so I'll explain what is going on in my head ( as I have done in other Blogs).

It is a tall order and my chances are not very high but given that we might be facing many things including War, and genocide I am willing to take the chance even if amongst some communities I would be seen as a silly don quixote!

Why me? Traditional groups are scattered, undemocratic, and partisan, just to give you an example on 16th Azar a handful of Iranians demonstrated in front of the London embassy, there were three groups of secularists, reformists, and Marxists and we were all ignored by the passing traffic. There was no media attention nothing, no impact! I have taken part in the anti-apartheid campaign and seen how big it gets when you involve people outside your community.

The plan is to run a campaign modeled around the anti-apartheid campaign, and this is how it works:

• Get a community such as IC to support your petition, if need be open dialogue with existing organizations and its members and try to get support
• Approach the non-Iranian community in this case the student Unions
• Approach organizations such as Amnesty International and get their support Organize events such as rallies, Marches, flashmob events to gather a wider support to get media attention and widen the cause Get your wider supporters to collect signatures

Check the citizens' initiative clause of the Lisbon treaty for yourself, it is there, the tough part is the tall list I just put forward.

How does this help people in Iran?

If you have a democraticly elected strong Iranian lobby fighting for Human rights, the organization leaders and not Tom, Dick and Harry would sit at the table and open dialogue with Western powers on our future.

It would also make it difficult to bomb us, until people in Iran finally go on a general strike and bring this regime down. 

Dear "I Have a Crush on Alex Trebek"

NIAC does matter. Any large Iranian organization at this stage where we badly need a lobby does matter. The problem is (if our IC Blog community is a valid sample) is that non members do not trust it. I don't think monarchists support it by the way. P.S.  I'm a secular republican and not a monachist.

Dear Baba Taher-e Oryan

I'm not sure if the leadership is open to a vote so even if more people joined I'm not sure if the leadership could change. The existing members seem loyal to the leadership, and non members are not likely to spend $50 to vote out the leaders, they would more likely go off somewhere else where they would trust the leadership.

what is NIAC anyway?

What is stupid about this organization is that it is founded on the idea of "answer to AIPAC." I hate AIPAC and I think they hurt American interests, but I'm not impressed with NIAC on the whole. They have had very little success as an organization. They are insular and if their purpose is to get a few creeps in Washington to "apologize" when they say what they really think about us as scummy Iranians, then what a shame. 

I don't want an organization who forces apologies because of "Arabian Gulf" or "I hate Iranians" BS. Trita is highly educated and if we need PHD DEGREES to get this kind of "action," then we are really hopeless.

The people on the board of this organization are people who have been imprisoned by IRI, by the way. Some of you love the conspiracy theories so much or you are threatened (monarchists who love to slander NIAC without evidence). 

This is a mediocre organization in my opinion. I don't see what specific role they have in anything meaningful. By giving them all this larger than life urban legend mythology, you monarchists are actually boosting their profile.  

Getting back to debate - Within the constraints of Blogs

Remember this is not a witch hunt, nor a court. Given the unreliable means that we have i.e. debate in a blog all sort of random discussions come up so I wouldn't even call it a proper debate, but I think opening the discussion has been useful.

Ironically, Irandokht set me on this quest. I have been on this quest to help the protesters by doing my bit to create a strong lobby because like many Iranians see Iran in a terrible danger. As mannya200 has suggested perhaps I should get a reality check about my aspirations!

Irandokht suggested I look into organizations such as NIAC, PAAIA etc. So here we are.

54 comments later, NIAC members list the virtues of NIAC achievements, and most non-members either list theirs in opposition.

I want to Thank all of you but specially MM for carrying the weight on his side of debate.

So lets ask some questions from members, because it was these questions that set me off on opening this debate in the first place: 

Do you see a need for a Global strong Iranian lobby, with democratically elected leaders, and trusted by the majority of the diasporic Iranian community?

If the answer is yes then, do you see NIAC becoming such an entity, given the level of trust outside NIAC, or do you think the IC blog section does not represent the general view of the U.S.-Iranian public?

Is NIAC meant to even become such a global organization?

Representation: True or False

Dear MasoudA

The establishment in USA have already identified NIAC an organization representing the American-Iranian community. True or false of its intentions or representation is not the issue here but the fact remains. Once different organizations start claiming that they and only they are the sole representative of their communities then none of them will be taken seriously.

If NIAC claims to be a democratic organization then it has to follow the wishes of its members in its policies. This is why I suggested that more Iranian-Americans to join the organization and force a different resolution, be it change of top management or anything else. Now if the word NIAC is a curse word among the Iranian community in USA then a different approach need to be taken as was suggested by yourself earlier.

As a matter of interest, has NIAC leadership ever been on the Iranian TVs in L.A. or Washington to present their policies to the Iranians living in USA? With the phone-in system that the Iranian TV stations have, it would be a good opportunity for the people to ask questions and also get to know the people that are presumably representing them in Capitol Hill 

Again

Trita and NIAC are not the problem - the problem is us (Iranian Americans) do not have a real representation.    My only interest in Trita and NIAC is to better understand how these representatiopns are created for us by non-Itanians. 

Form the base

I'm back and I don't see

I'm back and I don't see your real name, Nassridin.

As I said before, NIAC has done a great job lately in a few areas, including sanctions, human rights, and the latest one that was brilliant, demanding disarmement of the basiji force. I just wish Trita was not so secretive about his ambitions and motivation.

He has opened a dokan in our name, the least he can do is to be transparent.

BTW, Mollah N,  are you a paid memeber of NIAC??? You should disclose that as a matter of principles.

If MasoudA was head of X organization on behalf of Iranian-Americans, I would want him vetted just as vigorosuly as Trita. We Iranians should learn not to be too trustging and stop making people into idols.

......

strong voices in D.C but better kabbabi in L.A.

let's focus on real issues.   i.e who cares about NIAC ?Maziar

Baba Taher

Are you kidding?  I don't know how connected you are with the Iranian/American society - NIAC is like a curse word.   After having failed for 30 years to form an organization why start building on NIAC ?!!   Just dos not make sense.   As one who has been following let me suggest again - build the base first.   And be aware - as soon as you announce the formation of the base - 5 or 6 well known IR goones will approach the system trying to be part of the base!! 

Also - don't let people of my generation in leadership positions - listen to what they say -but invest on the youth and let them make the decisions. 

Dear Ramin and Irandokht - forum or a kangaroo court?

Your readers have identified the key issue here: no record of Trita's elementary school, or was it his knowledge of literature.  WOW.  I was going to ask him next time I see him, but Irandokht is right, these folks have made up their minds and the next question will be: who did his uncle marry and why?

I am asked to judge a person based on non-referenced snipet sentenses that masoud puts down here. Then masoud asks me: why don't you answer me!  Sorry, no dice.

Oh, as far as being Iranian, I value Irandoosts like John Limbert or Professor Matt Stolper more Iranian in spirit than some of your readers here.

Good luck folks.

Hostile Takeover Bid!

Ramin

In my previous post I somehow tried to question the use of the word 'national' in NIAC but no one followed up on it so I will leave it for now

I don't know much about NIAC so I visited their website yesterday for the first time and  must admit I was not surprised to see a list of highly educated individuals in their Board of Directors with PhD's and you name it, responsible individuals,  Corporate co-founders, Vice Presidents etc but what I failed to see was to see any Writer, Poet, retired University Professor (Iranian University) or even a commoner! I was disappointed because the only way I can interpret a community's Council is when I can see that its members include those from all walks of life including ordinary people. 

Unfortunately, we Iranians are poisoned with the idea that, no matter at what cost, we should always aim to have a University qualification, the higher the qualification the better social standing and job opportunity, not necessarily job satisfaction, we will have. Here we have a president of an organization which holds PhD in Political Science. Does that qualification makes him suitable for a political office. Perhaps yes but most probably no. How many politicians, worldwide you can name that have a Degree, never mind PhD, in Political Science. In the last 30 years United Kingdom had two Prime Ministers not even having a University Degree in any discipline namely James Callahan and John Major. Magarat Thatcher had a degree in Chemistry!

What I am trying to say is that when I see mouth watering titles of individuals in public positions then I start to have my doubts, not intentially but as the old Persian saying goes ' Once bitten by a snake, always frightened by coloured cord' 

Rather than creating another organization why not promote the idea that the 500 or so potential members of a new organization join NIAC and then call for an Emergency Meeting which should have been catered for in NIAC's Articles of Memorandum. This you may call a Hostile Takeover but it will give the members a chance to elect new Board of Directors to steer the organization to the direction that the majority wishes

Mr Ramin -- reality check

" so for instance in Europe where I discovered that using the citizens’ initiative clause of the Lisbon treaty if I was to collect one million signatures I could go and make a law change I have been asking for support from our IC community. "

 Just do it the Iranian way, fill in the rest of the 900,000 names.

Dear Ramin, you think European law dighe inghadr kashkiye.

Once at university,we collected 2000 signatures for some student law.  They called and verified 200 of the signatures randomly. 

these lists where the names are half complete, email abandoned , no telephone nor address will not be looked upon seriously...

Cuban Americans are well organized because they are almost all in one location- Florida. They were all kicked out.  They can have significant clout on Florida elections- which I think counts for 22 electoral votes- a key state to win historically by any winning President. 

Good luck with your propositions, but don't bet too much on it. 

NIAC's 'friends' on this site

I am happy that NIAC is pushing Islamic Republic's violations of human rights  first and foremost in its agenda. I believe the organization has come a long way to set its priorities straight and to pursue them with energy and dedication. I joined NIAC only after I noticed this change of priorities. I believe we should support any organization which would push the cause of human rights in Iran.

I have said time and again that unfortunately those who seem to be dedicated supporters of NIAC on this site are some of the least reputable users.  They have a reputation for changing their positions routinely and supporting diehard pro Ahmadinejad users in discussions, beginning on the day after the rigged elections.  Labeling people as zionists and AIPAC members is routine among these people, and they don't hesistate to gang up and attack anyone who disagrees with them, showing no tolerance for different views. Nobody respects these people. It would be so much better if NIAC took the trouble to show up and defend itself. Left to these so called NIAC supporters on this site, NIAC will have a real problem.

Mollah Nassridin: I have to

Mollah Nassridin: I have to go out right now but I will like you to reveal your real name so I can contact my lawyers...

Times like this,  I wish I'd become a lawyer instead of majoring in science.

If I had money, I would have hired a lawyer to do an investiagtion on people like you and Q and Shah Gholam...I don't understand why wealthy Iranians with resources don't do that...

I'll be back later.... 

mollah Nassridin: AIPAC

mollah Nassridin: AIPAC affiliated??

What if I was?? What are you going to do about it???

BTW, would you be willing to use your real name to accuse me of such affiliation??? I hope you are.

vildemose,

You are an AIPAC affiliated on this website and you know it, so whatever disinformation you post about NIAC is related to that positon.