Ramin Tork

Dear Aprank

Thank you for your comments.

I have not solicit NIAC, if anything I was critical of its leadership, please read my blog carefully.

As stated I make a distinction between the leadership and the members, and I was trying to appeal to such members.

Sometimes the wisdom of Mulla Nasradin seemed naive but made sense, so please do not judge me at face value!

Many ordinary people joined NIAC because in a hostile environment they wanted representation.

At the moment we are nothing more that a facebook group with 64 members, no funding, no support and no intervention foreign or otherwise but already we are making a small difference.

You can join us and watch our activities, I welcome critical eyes and people who would raise their voice so please join the group and at any stage if you feel that we are not serving Human rights issues comment, raise your voice and make a change.

We have people like me, Darius Kadivar, Anahid etc. who are very clearly not NIAC members. I have always been open about my own politics I am a Green secularist and work only in the interest of Iran, we need to stand in union with other political spectrums but with those who are against IRI and are like minded in serving Iran.

NIAC

Ramin-

Your organiztion is an excellent idea. However, you need to make a choice. NIAC or the vast majority of Iranian-Ameicans. If you continue to solicit NIAC support you will never get most of America-Iranian backing. There is a huge distrust and hatred toward NIAC. For the most part, the American diaspora, despite political differences, are very cohesive in their desire for a secular Iran. NIAC is not- they want power shifted to Mousavi and the continuation of an Islamic country. The non-NIAC  people want the citizens of Iran to make that decision when the regime falls. We would like to support your effort, yet feel you are naieve with your understanding about NIAC. The rift they create in the US is not going away, in fact it deepens everyday. 

 Sincerely,

Apranik

Debate conclusion

Debate conclusion was to create the International Iranian Council (IIC) as a facebook group (until we grow to an organization) where you can maintain your PAAIA,NAIAC, monachist, green, secularist identity and still work towards the freedom of Iran in a coherent way (well when we get the numbers).

Causes and campaigns are booked as events, wall and discussions of the facebook allows for static and dynamic articles and info cycling. Anyone who wants to join a cause responds to the RSVP.

You more or less control the flow along eveyone else who is active.

If you have a new cause you tell one of the many admin people.

You can use a pseudo name if you wish to do so.

Related Blog:

//iranian.com/main/blog/ramintork/please-join-international-iranian-council-iic

The facebook group:

//www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=263222071382

MM Jaan

The Supreme Court cannot set a price for the items. The idea is that we publicize what is happening. Make it very embarrassing for any organization or individual to buy the Persepolis Artifacts. Basically SC could allow an auction. But if no one shows up to buy them the acution fails.

If anyone tries to buy them anonymously then expose them and let them be embarrassed. It is the same idea as if someone tried to sell Nazi stolen arts in a country that permitted it. Make it very; very politically incorrect. 

Museums and rich people care about their image. No one wants to be known as "buyer of ill gotten property". Any Museum buying them would be opening itself to boycotts.; you get the idea.

The Supreme Court decisions are final

VPK,

Once the Supreme Court of the US hears the arguments and rules on an issue, there is no higher court to appeal to in the US, of course.  Remember the 2000 election year leading to the US presidency?  If you have another comment, now is the time for discussions.  Please forward them to the attorneys.

Thanks.

Ramin & MM

Ramin Jaan,

Unfortunately I do not have any close contacts with PAAIA. I checked with my friends and none of them are members or have any backdoor contact with them.

MM Jaan,

Thank you for sending my ideas to NIAC. I am happy to help out any way possible. I have yet another idea; but I want to wait and see if we win in court as is.

Hazhir and Ramin

I agree with Hazhir, NIAC was created to deal mainly with the Iranian-American issues.

NIAC was partly created by Trita Parsi.  If I see that the leadership is slacking off, I will discuss the issues with the leadership, I will certainly call for a vote of confidence or just walk away.  That is the beauty of living in a free society.

Ramin and VPK

VPK,

I forwarded your points to NIAC, got a very positive response and they will discuss your ideas with the attorneys.  Thanks.

Ramin,

I will support you, especially when I get to know you better.  Please collaborate with the world-class Iranian human rights activists like Shirin Ebadi as well as the other Iranian organizations.

Look for my blog "Let's come out of our shelf" on trying to affect opinion/policy outside of Iranian.com, in which I will mention your efforts as well. 

By the way Hazhir

The leadership is not elected is it? Or am I wrong about that?

Thanks Hazhir

I was thinking of a new entity lets call it "International Iranian Council" which focuses on Iran's Human right's issues, can incorporate members from all opposition groups in what I call safe zone to achieve mutual goals.

So for instance a senior PAAIA,NIAC, Green, Monachist, or secularist republican person would retain their activity in their existing group but bring their expertise and excercise their membership or if voted act in their elected capacity towards Human rights issues. There would not be a conflict with the manifesto of the smaler group you simply put your IIC hat on without having to leave PAAIA, NIAC etc. 

This way, you do not compete in groups, you bring resources in this safe zone and amplify the Campaign.

I also recommended the anti-apartheid, solidarnosc style of campaign being applied to our Iranian campaign where by getting support from a wider non-Iranian community you bring about a powerful lobby and impact policy makers. To give an example we could involve student unions, form marches and rallies in every major city and this would bring a wider support for the Human rights Campaign.

NIAC and Human Rights

There are multiple threads in the post and many more in the comments, so I am not sure how much the main question of Ramin is addressed. If I got the question right, the issue is about potential role for NIAC in uniting the Iranians outside Iran to fight human rights abuses of Islamic Republic. In short, I think NIAC can take some steps in this path, and has already started that, but can not lead such effort.
As a NIAC member I have seen its internal working, and it is very democratic. We voted last year to increase the focus of the organization on human rights, and NIAC successfully did so, including several high profile interviews on CNN etc. Yet a full shift of focus to Iran's human rights as the mission of NIAC is likely not to be approved by the membership. Many of members prefer NIAC not to get too involved in Iranian politics because after all NIAC is about Iranian-Americans and not Iran. Therefore a major focus of the organization in terms of resources and activities are on things related to Iranian-Americans, from Persepolis tablets to fighting derogatory language of politicians against Iranian-Americans to fighting discrimination. A complete change of focus towards Iran is therefore not likely to get the vote of the members.
Moreover, I am not sure if NIAC is such a good organization to lead that role, even if the membership approved of that. For one thing, NIAC's expertise is more on the dynamics of politics in the U.S. and not the Iranian diaspora or Iran itself. Secondly, the amount of uninformed or malicious attacks against NIAC has made many in the community suspicious of a leading role for it against Islamic Republic.
So I think while NIAC is already doing much to help with promoting the cause of normal Iranians in their struggle against the government, it is neither realistic nor beneficial to expect it to take a leadership role in fighting Islamic Republic.

VPK

Actually, I tried one PAAIA contact, but still please go ahead if you know someone.

Here is the message:

I would like to organize Humanitarian/political events in favor of the campaign inside Iran but like many Iranians have a mistrust of traditional Iranian political organizations that are often tribal, elitist and out of date.

VPK

After 10 years of writing articles for IC, providing support, writing some good Art articles and interviews (some of which I put several weeks of hard work), I am beginning to see IC as a glorified political hamster wheel!

I am confident that there are many people who want to take positive action, but no one (who has a good name that is) has bothered to properly mobilize us, but I'll try to find a way.

By the way, you mentioned PAAIA, do you have good contacts in there? I sent them an email asking if they would be interested in expanding their activities to Europe but they didn't bother to answer.

Ramin

Thank you for researching this. I understand how the linkage may be an issue.  Fortunately the organizations do not have to be linked. At least not in the sense of sharing management or obligations. In fact we probably don't even want that.

The Global Lobby could of course publish articles; present its point of view; and even advertise on IC. Just like so many other groups do. Hopefully a number of IC readership and their friends will be willing to join and form a core. 

VPK

The Global lobby organization linked to IC will not fly unfortunately.

I would have to take it to the outside.

MM Jaan: Re: the Persepolis Treatures

Please feel free to forward my ideas to NIAC and any appropriate lawyers. I want the Persepolis treasure safe not personal credit.

My own preference is that we win the Supreme Court case. I am glad that Egypt is taking a stance here. In my opinion if US does proceed with this it will be the end of any country lending its national treasure to US not just Iran and Egypt. Plus it will put a dark cloud over relationships between any future Iranian government and US for decades; perhaps centuries to come.

In addition it will open up US property abroad to confiscation. Any country will be able to unilaterally pass a law awarding itself and anyone it wants property belonging to another nation. The whole concept of International trade will be jeopardized.

Chai Khor

I read your Blog. Unlike other Blogs and articles, I had opened this debate not to knock or praise NIAC but to see if NIAC or its members, along side other bodies such as PAAIA, Greens, monachists and people like me (secular republicans) can work towards something bigger i.e. a form of Global lobby geared to taking active action towards helping the people in Iran. Why do this? Because there is an epidemic of mistrust (some of which is valid!) within our community so by creating a safe zone, we could work together.

The idea that has come up out of our debate is to set IC as a backbone of a new organ lets call it "International Iranian Congress" that is not exclusive another words lets say a PAAIA member or senior representative can stand both for PAAIA and come and be elected or be an active member within the IIC. IIC will act as a vehicle for Global action to fight a anti-apartheid style campaign involving the bigger non-Iranaian community in the fight for Human rights for Iran.

I am to draw a proposal to JJ and we can create it as a seperate entity to amplify existing campaigns. 

I dare say that with Iran facing mass killings, genocide and perhaps even war our diasporic Iranian community needs to get its act together and mobilize people hungry to take action in a more effective way.

The NIAC issue is a non-issue

I realize that the LA based satellite channels and the MeK have been really pushing this idea of a link between NIAC and the IR, but at some point somebody has to present at least an iota of convincing evidence.

Please read my blog entry on NIAC (the article was not written by me).

the Persepolis Treatures

VPK,  

The State department is probably going to argue with us as well as the Iraqis on the issue of citizens suing foreign governments for damages. 

Apparently, as the US district court is deciding on the Persepolis case, the Supreme Court will decide another similar lawsuit, e.g., by the families of US personnel (Republic of Iraq v. Beaty) who are suiting Iraq for $3,000,000,000 in damages because they were captured and mistreated by Saddam's Iraqi regime. 

“The Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) which provides foreign states immunity from civil suits filed by private citizens.  However, in 1996, Congress revised the FSIA to permit private US citizens to sue countries designated by the State Department as a "state sponsor of terror."  This "terror exception" has prompted a flood of civil suits to proceed through U.S. courts seeking billions of dollars in damages from sovereign governments. The United States government has urged dismissals of these cases.  In the case involving Iraq, President George Bush moved to restore Iraq's sovereign immunity by removing Iraq from the State Department's terror list and by making the terror exception to the FSIA inapplicable to Iraq.  The Supreme Court will soon decide whether the President had authority to do so.”  

“The Supreme Court's decisions on this matter will also likely affect the two pending cases concerning the Persepolis artifacts for several reasons…….“

Furthermore, I heard that if the lawsuit is granted by the Supreme Court, e.g., Egypt may not lend its national treasures to be displayed in the US due to a lawsuit that someone could bring to confiscate those national treasures. 

Nonetheless, I can forward your ideas to the appropriate lawyers and especially NIAC who has contact with the attorneys on the Persepolis Defense Fund, unless, you want to email it yourself to the appropriate contacts.  If so, let me know soon.

Thanks. 

VPK

What a fantastic idea, I hope it works. You see, good things come out of IC when people put their mind to it.

VPK - if you are not, you should be a lawyer

VPK, if you are not, you should be a lawyer. 

It has been a while since I looked at the case, but the arguments you brought forth are very similar to the ones that our lawyers have been debating back and forth in various appeal decisions, and now the Supreme Court of the US. 

While I “suspect” that no lawyer will take another Persepolis Treasures case while this case is pending in the Supreme Court, we can still take action by:

* talking to some lawyer friends about your ideas.

* forwarding your ideas to the attorneys at the Persepolis Defense Fund and make sure that they know about your arguments. 

Any attorneys out there?

Persepolis

MM I am not a lawyer but I will tell you the gist of my argument and my position.

There are really two distinct arguments:

1) The Persepolis artifacts are not private property. They are Iranian national treasure similar to the Bamiyan Buddhas or the Liberty Bell. They cannot be used to compensate individuals any more than we can sell Mount Rushmore to pay for the Iranians who got killed when US downed the Iranian jet. Selling them in effect puts the US in the same position as the Taliban who would destroy historical treasure for political reason.

2) This argument is more risky; should only be used if the first argument does not carry the day. We make a case that the Islamic Republic owes "us" the Iranian community more than the "Israeli" plaintiffs. Many of us have proofs of lost property; injustices done to ourselves; friends and loved ones and so on. This has gone on for 30 years and involved many people. We should come ahead of Israelis in any form  of compensation. We can bring a group suit and take the artifacts into the custody of an Iranian run organization. We would then appoint some Iranian academics to over see the safety of these items until there is a democratic and reasonable government in Iran. At that point the items will be returned to Iran to a national Museum.

Thanks VPK

I just hope that more of the IC community would be behind it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

VPK, Action? - I am listening

I am POed about this as much as anyone else.  That is why we raised $110,000 in our area for the Persepolis defense fund to enable the Iranian-American as well as the other pro bono attorneys to take this case to the Supreme Court of the US, and to change laws in the Congress via a writing / conversation campaign. 

If you advocate another action, I am listening.  However, I am not a lawyer and do not know if we can do this action you suggest, especially in light of the impending Supreme Court case regarding the Persepolis Treasures.  If there are any lawyers out there who can contribute to VPK's suggestion, we appreciate?

MM Jaan

You say: That is how the Israelis are trying to confiscate the Persepolis treasures in Chicago, based on a civil suit they won in 2007.

I know that. I am a member of NIAC and get their news letters. What I am saying is lets beat them at their own game. We should make a case that the Persepolis artifacts should be put in custody of an Iranian organization for safekeeping. Pending the removal of IRI. They can be monitored by an impartial third party to guarantee they are being cared for. Once the Islamic Republic goes, we return it to Iran and put them in a Museum.

Ramin

Go for it. You obviously feel strongly so do it! If you form a group, I will support you. I may not be a real believer in petitions but I will give it the benefit of doubt.

• You have a forum it is called IC. Work out a deal with JJ to let you have a section. Or at least a link to your own site.
• Make up a good name for it. It should be something that appeals to people. Put up a contest for the best name.
• Write up a charter and get it voted on. Have it be something that people of various persuasion will support.
• Cooperate with other organizations. There is NIAC and PAAIA; at least try to get their member lists.
• See if you can get some free advertisement on Iranian owned TV and radio broadcasters.
• Go to whoever you can find and ask for funds. But please DO NOT take money from AIPAC or anything that will discredit you. It ain't worth it.

VPK, I agree - talk is cheap - let's act

1. The Chinese have to " lose face" for them to back down and a writing campaign will not only let the, e.g., LATimes to publish a story about us objecting, but also will push Americans who are also POed about American jobs going oversees to join you and me in boycotting Chinese made products.

2. In am not a lawyer, but I am told that we cannot sue governments.  That is how the Israelis are trying to confiscate the Persepolis treasures in Chicago, based on a civil suit they won in 2007.  NIAC and a bunch of Iranian-American lawyers are taking the case of the Persepolis treasures to the Supreme Court of the US to prevent these people destroy our heritage.  See previous NIAC articles on this topic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.  We just raised more than $110,000 in our area alone for the Persepolis defense fund which is also defended mainly by pro bono Iranian-American lawyers.  We have also campaigned to change the laws to prevent this calamity. 

Yes, money and action talk, everything else walks.  So, let's act.

manny jaan - think electronic, buddy

The way this is done is all electronic, my friend.   A website will have an electronic form-letter already prepared for or against the subject.  We go into the site, change the letter if we want, put our electronic signature on the letter and click "send".  JJ would prepare that form-letter here, maybe with the help of a couple more people with good writing skills.  Iranian.com has ca. 5000 contributors plus many thousand non-registered visitors who come in everyday (look at the # of readers on a blog).  You put them all together, plus the email advertisement for the campaign we could do with our friends, the numbers can add up significantly.  We could tell, at least LATimes, that we do not appreciate what the Chinese did here. 

OK, maybe 5,000 or 100,000, the numbers do not matter as much as a collective action we take here to let the world know how we see things, instead of going blog to blog complaining about so and so, insulting others or saying how bad we feel about things in Iran, etc,........  Can you think of another collective action?  I can.

We can also direct the letter to go to multiple addresses simultaneously.  So, in this case the form-letter could have gone to LATimes, the Chinese embassy, the manufacturer of the anti-riot trucks, NYTimes, WashingtonPost, etc. at the same time with a click of a button electronically. 

At NIAC, we do these writing campaigns routinely to affect our Congressmen, Senators, the White House and the media.  We just did a writing campaign for targeted vs. broad-based sanctions against Iran + Trita's testimony in the Congress, of course.  We partially won with the Congress accepting one of our proposals, but the White House just responded to us today by announcing a targeted sanctions against the Sepaah, despite all AIPAC and the ne-cons did to push for broad-based sanctions.

That is how you do it.  I promise these campaigns will not cost a penny in stamps, and certainly not a lot of time for the readers.  The setup, well, we can ask NIAC how they do it routinely.  I will be more than happy to help you answer another question.  

Advantage of law suits

As you may know some Israelis have been suing IRI for damages and are trying to take our national treasure and  auction it for "damages".  I don't like that! I think WE should sue the IRI; get ahead of them in line and take possession of the treasure ourselves. We have much stronger cases. Many of us had property confiscated in Iran. Others were abused and tortured.. We can get the treasure and put it in safekeeping for the day when IRI is gone and then return it to a legitimate museum in Iran. We can sue Rafsanjani; he owns a lot of property in Canada and use the money to support Iranian causes.

We can bring criminal charges against pigs like AN. Yes the warrants need to wait until he is out of office. But that will happen and when it does we can hound him to the ends of the earth. 

Petitions on the other hand are simply food for laughter. You cannot plea to their good nature. But there are legal and non violent means at our disposal and we can use them right now. 

Re: All I have seen at Iranian.com is talk, talk & more talk

I have taken action about Chinese involvement in supporting the Mullahs. I already boycott Chinese products when at all possible. What else do you want me to do? 

Some years ago I joined NIAC because I thought it was helping. The issues raised here have made me question that decision. So I have held off new donations pending some thought. I am looking at PAAIA but they don't seem to do much that impacts Iran.

Ramin jan if you want to form an organization I am happy to support you. IMHO petitions and signatures are not effective. Neither Chinese nor IRI give a rats behind about them. What is effective is: boycotts; sanctions; law suites; criminal charges. We should sue the IRI leadership for pain and suffering they caused to people; also for the wealth they squandered; get injunctions on their wealth outside of Iran. We should get international arrest warrants for them. Remind them of what happened to other dictators; put the fear of justice in them. Some like AN are too stupid to understand. But others like Larijani and Rafsanjani will get the message.