Roozbeh_Gilani

Re protests

Dear Amirparviz..., the problem is that you focus so much on the violent protests, or the ones that are suppressed violently. Whereas, there are protests taking place around the world everyday that do not end up in violence whatsoever! The point is not whether a protest is supposed to take place peacefully or otherwise, but rather the nature of protest as a basic human right in and on itself. The issue is whther or not the right to dissent is recognized in a society!

Sounds like all shah's opponents were being punished

Social injustice in Iran continues till shah's remains return from Cairo to Iran with high respect from each Iranians. State funeral a must.  Shah's tears, in Mehrabad airport, when he left the country was not absure. Our nation had never experienced happiness after that cold winter day in Jan. 1979.  

It was a summer of 1979 when I was talking to  Aghasi in person in Gohardasht- Karaj.  He told me that he hopes shah returns to Iran soon.  

Peaceful protest is good and a legitimate right.

However, in practice because it is so effective, I don't know anywhere it is really tolerated.  Where on this planet of idealism do you see it happening without a violent reaction in response to contain it? In the UK recently, I saw peaceful protestors beaten under the guise that they were thieves and vandals, yes maybe 10% started stealing and burning down places later on, but in the squares they just kettled every one and beat the living daylights out of people.  

France was far worse than here. The USA seems more civil for now, but I heard they just jaled 700 people for walking on the streets and causing a disruption on a bridge, of course if you look at the pictures the police had a technical point and were right but there were so many people and there was no space on the sidewalks for all of them, in practice they arrested people on the side walks too.  The violence of police forces is terrifying and unlawful, yet it happens every time.  Why do they use tear gas and plastic bullets against peaceful protestors in the west?

Dear Amirparviz...,

Dear Amirparviz..., I'm affraid you still don't get the point. The point is not about Shah, or whether he was good or bad, but rather the role of protest, dissent and opposition in the society. You on the other hand have made it about approval or disapproval of Shah! In my opinion, as I reiterated below, protests are a constructive form of freedom of expression -- when alternative means of such expressions, and discourse in general, are exhusted -- and an alternative to otherwise violent means of demand for change! Protests are an integral part of social activities regardless of the system of government -- unless of course there is a perfect system which has yet to be seen by humankind!

While I understand your fundness for the Previous regime, I do acknowledge that there were people in that era who felt disenfranchised and marginalized. Yet, contrary to what you may believe, I do not think that everyone during the Shah era was "yes man," as you suggest! For my own father held an official government post -- which I can not even imagine would be possible under IRI, but that doesn't mean he was allowed to speak his mind openly! As a child he kept reminding me not to repeat conversations we had at home for anyone at school out of the fear of SAVAK!  Of course, I am of the belief that Shah was not nearly as barbaric as Khomeini and his ilk, yet was a despot who could not tolerate criticism, much less dissent!

And about the shortcmings of the American system, I do not find U.S. as the best example for a democratic system (especially in the last few decades)! IMO, it's rather a Corporate plutocracy with a pluralistic facade to devise the impression of democracy! 

Funny Interview with Truthful Noam

He says. "Irans threat is to its own people, but even there the brutal
clerical regime is no threat to its people compared with the USA".

The UN charter doesn't apply to the United States. 

Very good work Noam.

While USA's words make no sense until you understand that the technical
terms are created to challenge anyone who plays with US designs for the
region.  Hence the propaganda about the late shah, 1) repressive 2)
corrupt 3) dictator/megalomaniac/tyrant/despot. repeated again and
again.  Hopefully 10% of Iranians will realize this was propaganda not
truth. Based on nonsensical definitions.

"The irrelevant public is not listened to of course, when turkey
followed the will of 95% of its people against participating in the
wishes of the invading british and american armies, it was mislabelled
undemocratic and had sanctions put on it to punish it for showing a poor
understanding of democracy." lol

//iranian.com/main/2011/oct/iran-threat

Arj this is a really good discussion.

I'm not picking on you or in any way attackng you personally, I am wishing to inspire thought and thinking on details.

It's not your values that I feel in conflict with, As you may know I am in favor of a democratic secular constitutional monarchy for Iran.  However that said, this doesn't mean that I won't like to debate you if I feel like your points are too general or factually inaccurate, that's my issue. 

The achillies heel of democracies is people having true information to base their decisions on. When you flip on the tv and see fox and cnn I think you can see that people are not being given all of the truth in todays reporting.  There is plenty of misinformation going on, generally agenda driven.  Misinformed people does ot make for a good working democracy.  

I would easly and gladly be able to defend the record of the late shah from a democratic stand point and from a stand poit of social justice, to the following leaders, jimmy carter, ronald reagan, george bush, bill clinton, gearge w bush, obama.  From what he started with to what he accomplished.  The propaganda that we all experienced was based on the points that were lies repeated again and again, 1) corruption, 2) repression, 3) despot/tyrant/dictator this is neither a fair or truthful assesment of Iran in the 1970's. The motives of this propaganda were never to bring more freedom and democracy for Iranians, but to make it weak and tyrannical.

I suppose you would be lead to believe that all the people in government and in society were just yes men, there was dissent, debate and protests amongst monarchists and other unarmed groups, I don't think the late shah was dealing with push overs as is sometimes portrayed. Just because the shah held a view it didn't mean he had support from all monarchists.  The Shah himself had laws he was bound by and could not and did not break, so his power was limited by law and in practice this was true too.

You're missing the point!

Dear Amirparviz..., one thing I can not fathom is why everything has to be about Shah?! Social justice, the focus of discussion here, is not bound to time and place! Just because some of us adore Pahlavis or Khomeinis and Khameneis, does not mean everyone else should shut up and stop talking about what they see wrong about the country whether before or after the 1979 revolution!

My point here is the role of protests and socio-political dissent in a modern society. Depending on the capacity of a system, dissent could be seen as a positive reminder of shortcomings in a democratic and confident society (a form of early warning system), or could be denied and snuffed as "treason" in a despotic society! Thus, every society without an exception has dissidents and protesters! Yet the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is the Right To Dissent. As in a democratic socity, the official opposition(s) is/are at the forefront of dissent and protests, whereas in a dictatorship, not only there is no such thing as oposition, but any sign of dissent is suppressed as treason and protesters are labelled and persecuted as "traitors!"

Arj I think the copy paste was not lazy, as much as just wrong

The conclusion on the Shah is wrong.  Some Iranians are still misleading each other and it serves no one.  They say the Shah was a dictator, long after the propaganda achieved its aim, without knowing the definition or why they are wrong, they happily compare the shah with ghadaffi, who ruled with an iron fist and had the mass graves to prove it.  That is just plain wrong to put the shah in category with true dictators.  I am often told by the most misled people that I am rewriting History, some people are even prepared to fight to hold on to the ideas that 1970's western propaganda had them believe.  That is not history, the history is that propaganda was organized & used to mislead Iranians.

See here what I wrote about some of what we know about for sure about how and by whom the shah was really ousted.

//iranian.com/main/blog/amirparvizforsecu...

Re patriotism

Dear Oon Yaroo, the main flaw lies with the premise of your distinction. That is, even if the elemnts of time and geographical place are juxtaposed, it still doesn't stand! For not all the Shah's men and women in uniform were heroes, nor were all the protesters of that era anti-heroes (or traitors)! Logically speaking, there also were, and are, many national heroes who did/do not wear uniforms. While at the same time, many protesters were/are considered by many as national heroes! I give you a familiar, mainstream example; Dariush Eghbali, who sang protest songs of Shamloo in that era and was imprisoned, became a national hero upon his release!

Indeed, protesting is a form of patriotism, for protests work as socio-political alarms! If they're taken seriously, many eventual debacles could be avoided. And if not, it would lead to future uncertainties, i.e. events leading to the 1979 upheavals! In that regard, please allow me to be a bit lazy and repost a part of my exchange with our friend VPK on another thread: I also agree with you that dissent is not necessarily a sign of hostility, but rather concern! That is why those regimes who suppress dissent as "unpatriotic" and "treasonous" are doomed to perish, as Shah's did and IRI will!

Dear Mehraban

Thank you. I realize it was not directed at me. But I figured that we are all in this together. Might as well add our voices. I agree with your previous post.

VPK my comment was not directed at you

at all. 

Thanks Raoul

Thank you for being kind. Yes I am a father and a tax payer so I am not a nobody. But my dreams of being a Physics professor in Iran got crushed by the revolution. That is really what I meant. Unlike some others I do not brag about my education or wear it on my sleeve. One of the problems with Iranian culture is putting too much trust in titles. We always have "Dr" so and so said it so it must be true. We need to examine ideas on merit not who proposed them. 

BTW: My work is it is pretty useless for making weapons. I made sure of that because I had no interest in that kind of Physics. Also I promised my adviser I would never use my knowhow to make weapons.

VPK

No 'problemo' as Bartman would say.  LOL
Not possible to be a nobody.  :-)
Cheers,

Dear Raoul

I am not going to give away my identity; I am sorry. No offense meant. My degrees are from top US institutions but I no longer work in that. It is practically impossible to get the kind of job I wanted here. I went into computer work just as many others I know. Now I am a nobody writing C++ :-(

VKP

Your degree(s) are in physics?  Which institution(s)?

Good deal

I do not find having my friend disappear at 16 a good deal. Yes I got away but my cousin and friend did not. I lost my home and my nation. I don't go to funerals or wave banners. I just sit here and feel like s***. 

I did not want to get anyone killed. My goal was to get a Ph.D. in Physics from an American University; go back and teach. I was not going to be a social activist. Never encouraged anyone to become "active". Just minded my own business and studied. Physics is pretty tough stuff and takes 100% of your time. With a bit of luck I would have been in Iran right now teaching. I still think we were better off without all this anti-Shah stuff. This time I agree with Raoul the social unrest was not worth it.

Dear Arj!

The context of my previous post was the period of the stability in Iran during the Shah's era.

Irrespective of the constraints and limitations of the political climate during the Shah's era and one's approval or disapproval of it, one can not deny, trivialize, and ignore the patriotism* demonstrated and practiced by the Iranian military officers in protecting and securing Iran's borders and sovereignty while college students were protesting!

If we accept the definition below, then those Marxist or Mujahed students who were protesting and sacrificed their lives for Internationalism or Islam or any other ideals of theirs did not fit the definition of patriots, but Iranian military officers did! That's all! 

"...*patriotism is a devotion to one's country..."

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humm...... convenient......

They die, we get vacation days,   sometimes even a photo op at their funerals  holding up the banner of Social Justice.  Pretty good trade I would say, for us that is ;).

What is upsetting for me on the social & human side.

In the pursuit of power and in order to attract supporters, both the Islamists on khomeini's side and the communists on the other side were engaging in an "odious cocktail of grudge, gripe or grievance" and it was neither fair nor based on an honest assesment. 

Shahs various teams truly accomplished more for the average Iranian in establishing the largest middle class that you would expect with results like that the pursuit of power wouldn't cause leaders and followers to be so intentionally disingenuous. Yet reality and experience showed us all what a disgraceful and gutless (by iranian standards) force those that held up the banner of social justice unleashed on iran. As a result, Irans future now lies in the hands of luck more than anything else.  That is upsetting after the period of social progress during the 60's ad 70's.

Roozbeh:

Good blog.  My only 'contribution' here would be that the social 'justice' is an abstract concept not unlike fairness, or equality.   One problem is that such abstract concepts do create 'materialistic expectations' and such expectations usually result in social unrest...

Social Justice Personal

This is from my own personal experience.  I will give three instances.

Two of them are when we had a servant lady working for us. This woman had several kids that we also took in. The woman did the usual things: nanny; some cleanup; help with cooking and so far. We never called her "Kolfat". My mother insisted we call her "Parastar bache". 

Insance one: One time her daughter was out with my mother. Some rich ladies asked my mother "who is this girl with you". My mother said "she is my cousin" done!

Instance two: When the nurse got old she decided to retire. Her daughter was married and her son was in the military. She needed money to buy a house in Tehran. My mother outright handed her the cash. There was no obligation; no law but she decided to do it anyway. 

In return our nanny's son joined the MEK. Helped overthrow the Shah. And to chase us out of Iran. Great: I don't know what happened to him sort of afraid to find out. My fear is he may have got killed in the 1988 binge or the war. If he was lucky I may get to see him back in Iran one days maybe 10-20 years from now.

The last one is in Shomal. I knew a kid out there who became friends with me. He was from a local family and his parents were fine by local standards. But not wealthy enough to send him to West for education. My father promised his father to pick up the bill. As long as the kid would finish high school with decent grades. This all fell apart wit the revolution. Recently I spoke to his family. They got very quiet and one told me he was taken at age of 16 never to be seen again. 

Social Justice

Is obviously a good thing and we do owe unions in America. We do owe those who stand against greed. What I oppose is the agendas which are self defeating. Many of the leftists in Iran failed to do any good.

They ended up being outmaneuvered and used by Mollahs. Then discarded when no longer needed. The Mollahs kept the capitalists around since they make money.  But the Marxists got murdered en-mass.

You got to pick your fights and not make false accusations. It does not make sense that Shah would steal the money they claim. There was not enough money in Iran to add up to all his detractors say. Sounds like Dr Evil in Austin Powers asking for one gillon gzillion dollars.

Vildemouse this is what happens when you pursue just democracy

People like the guy in the video have over 200,000 mullahs and the organization to send iran back to the stone age.

Freedom, Democracy & Justice are best served, by a Secular Democratic Constitutional Monarchy For Iran.

Renowned Islamic

//www.mrctv.org/videos/renowned-islamic-ideologue-defines-iran%E2%80%99s-foreign-policy

Reform requires the consent of the corrupt

VPK I agree with you, it is not enough being for social justice

How you pursuit it is just as important.

Shah's great accomplishment was not just the creation of industries like Iranian Steel, his gift making sure Iranian workers at the time were the only ones in the world that were the owners of Iranian steel primarily to ensure a good retirement for their lifetimes work & had healthcare completely paid for, for them and their families.

Countries have to continuously fight hard to win against the excesses of greed.  When you betray such a leader, like the shah, then its only fair to ask, if the activities of most that say they were fighting for social justice in practice and based on their results, really were fighting for social justice.

It's unfair and unforgivable that many of these types used to spread gossip that the shah his family and people around him were all stealing billions of dollars.  So really the tools of these social justice advocates were lies and that only served the mullahs who gladly repaid them with murder.

Based on what they did I can see why you are not grateful to them.

 Arj: I agree with you on

 Arj: I agree with you on social justice. Many labor laws were hard fought battles in this country and people did lose their lives.

 Here is what people are doing right now for social justice in NY. 500 people arrested.

 Brooklyn Bridge occupied. Protesters marched to the Brooklyn Bridge, occupied car lanes and shut down all traffic:

//www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/01/1021936/-Occupy-Wall-Street:-Brooklyn-Bridge-occupied,-mass-arrests,-solidarity-events?via=blog_1

 Watch the video:

//www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/01/1021856/-Occupy-Wall-Street-open-thread:-Tax-the-rich?via=blog_1

Reform requires the consent of the corrupt

Re social justice

Dear Oon Yaroo, your distinction could not be further from the truth! For not everyone who fights in uniforms for his/her homeland is necessarily a hero (prominent examples are pasdars like Rezaei and Rahim Safavi who have fascistic tendencies, I do not even bother you with Nazis and Serbs)!

And those of us who dismiss social justice as idealistic fantasies should bear in mind that if it wasn't for social justice activists, we would still be working 12hrs/day, 7days/week with no vacations or sick days...!   

dear amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

Social Justice, like human rights because they don't exist for all is no reason to give up on them.

I am not giving up on it. My beef is the way people go about it. For example my father had a business in Iran. He gave people a good salary and good benefits. One of his employees got taken by Savak for 2 months. He paid his salary to his family anyway. That meant family was fine and government actually thanked my father. There are different ways to make social justice. I have personal negative experiences with the kind here. I lost family members who did more or less what these did. 

Let us examine the two approaches:

• My fathers: No one was hurt and a family was save from poverty. He got a loyal employee when the guy was released.
• My cousin: No social justice and my cousin dead before he was 20.

PS,

No we will not forget the mass killings of late 1980s nor should we. Plus many killings at other times. I don't care communist or royalist. No one should be mass killed. Ban death penatly once for all and no more!

We'll never forget mass killings of political prisoners in 1988

Aghasi was from Ahwaz but he had family members in Ahmad Abad,  Abadan and what a crowd when he showed up. My grand pa's house was in Ahamd Abad and we were able to see him when he came to this poor neighborhood.My dad was also a worker in Abadan Refinery and yes Aghasi was very popular in abadan. He always knew where he came from. We all miss him.

Roozbeh khan

thanks for your humble taughts on edalat...

And all those beautiful souls losing their preciouse lives just for a personal taughts I had relatives and friends members killed in that backward culture that lacks the simple freedom of taught be it during the late shah with some leniency or the brutal Islamist.

Maziar