For an Islamic Democracy

Is this real life

>Respond to his posts

>Stop abusing me

Insanity. 

Dear Salman:

Again, you did not answer my question. Your response amounts to sheer equivocation.

Time!

Borthers and Sisters

I am afraid I have to disappear for a few hours. Thank you for all your comments so far but please  do not hesitate to proceed with bashing me and moderate Islam in my absence, I will deal with all the abuse and otherwise on my return.

Vasalamo Alaikom va Rahmatollah 

For an Islamic democracy

Salman

You need PROOF? Just look at Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Turkey. You
rejected the Arab examples out of your (mild) sense of Persian supremacy
over Arabs. Well brother I can't help you further.

Actually Salman Turkey is not a moderate Islamic country. Turkey has a completely secular government. You are trying to point out a country with a Muslim population that has been successful in many ways and then you label them with a form of government that you desire so that people are fooled into thinking your system has worked in other places. You are using deceptive tactics. Having a Muslim population in no way means that Turkey's government is a moderate Islamic one. Turkey is secular. Just because some parties have different views on Islam and society does not change things like Turkey's basic constitution.

Morocco is really not a good example to use either, seeing how the Moroccan government is corrupt.  If you are talking about the Justice and development party of Morocco, then perhaps you should wait and see if they actually get into power. Once they get into power then you should see the results. Don't just blindly shout out Morocco before you know the full results.

And what are you talking about Egypt? Egypt is currently a military dictatorship. If you are talking about the Freedom and justice party then perhaps you should wait and see if they get into power. And if they do get into power you should wait and see the results. That's the same as me saying Khomeini is going to be great before he came into power.

And lets take a look at some of the stuff the Ennahda movement has been saying in Tunisia.

 On 13 November 2011, the party's general secretary Hamadi Jebali held a joint rally in Sousse together with a parliamentary deputy of the Palestinian Hamas party. In a tone sharply in contrast to official statements of the party, Jebali referred to the occasion as "a divine moment in a new state, and in, hopefully, a 6th caliphate," and that "the liberation of Tunisia will, God willing, bring about the liberation of Jerusalem."[34]

 Ahmed Ibrahim of the Tunisian Pole Democratique Moderniste political bloc complained to a foreign journalist that Ennahda appears "soft" on television, "but in the mosques, it is completely different. Some of them are calling for jihad."[16]

Sound good to you? 

Muslims do not commit acts of violence against civilians

Brother Rahman

Those who call themselves Mulsim and commit acts of violence against other civilians, of any faith or no faith, have broken the basic tenets of Islam: peace. They are not practicing muslims.  

For an Islamic democracy

Dear Salman:

Do you see any acts of violence committed against Muslims in the US or Germany by other Muslims with regards to Hadith or Sunnah? If not. Why do you think that is?

Ineffective Falsehoods?!

"Your purist approach was rejected by Imam Ali (AS) who said " bring up your children according to the requirments of their times". How is Mola Omar these days brother?"

What in the world the above 'true' quote of Ali (a.s.) has anything to do with all the 'Self Serving BS's' of 'falsehoods' exhibited by a pseudo-inventor here?  Did Ali(a.s.) ever say anything either about allowing arbitrary changes with the GOD's 'true' religion or  about redefining it per time? Of course, he did not. Ever! 

Mola Omar (The 'Boogie Man') is once again a '911' pseudo character invented by the same crowds of 'Occupiers!'

READ Quran (in any languages) & discover all the truth & nothing but the 'heart penetrating' truth!

GODFirst, & GODLast! 

Brother Rahman

Violence against those who break the Islam's code of practice based on interpretted rules of Fiqh. Islam is not solely based on Quran - it also about  Hadith and Sunnah (the conduct of the Prophet and in the Shi'a sect the Twelve Imams). 

For an Islamic democracy

Thank you brother Bacheh of Shiraz

  All I can say is that your chosen username befits you perfectly well except that Shiraz has produced one of the most radical of islamist: Dast-Gheyb who was assassinated by Mujahedin. This is why you think all mulsims are like Dastgheyb. 

For an Islamic democracy

Dear Iranfirst:

Moderate or Extreme readings of Islam are nonissues here. That's where Salman's fallacy lies.

Dear Salman:

You did answer my question. Violence against who or what? How and based on what laws?

The Illusion of Reforming Islam

Islam can't be moderated, just as fascism could not be. READ Quran (in your own language) and see all its errors and hate

//www.faithfreedom.org/articles/free-thought/...

Brother Rahman

I listed the four principles that reject violence but if you wish me to identify each and every case well brother that will take till the day of Ghyamat.  Now can you tell me why my premise is in your opinion fallacious?

For an Islamic democracy

Now who is not reading it rightly brother FG?

You need PROOF? Just look at Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Turkey. You rejected the Arab examples out of your (mild) sense of Persian supremacy over Arabs. Well brother I can't help you further.

For an Islamic democracy

Dear Salman: Thanks!

Now, Could you tell me, regarding what entity does moderate Islam rejects Islam's violent interpretaion?

OY Jaan:

Salman's premise regarding moderate or extreme Islam is totally erroneous and based on false assumptions. Our friends here are helping him with his fallacious arguments.

Brother Rahmanian

In short, moderate Islam is the Islam that while it keeps all the basic tenets of Islam it rejects its violent interpretation. Generally four principles define moderate Islam:

Principle One: Sharia Law has no Legal Authority

Principle Two: Violent Jihad is to be totally rejected.

Principle Three: Arab Christians and religious minorities that live in any Islamic country are completely equal to Muslims and are to enjoy full human rights

Principle Four: All Muslims everywhere have complete freedom of religion and of speech

There are some shades of these principles but these are generally accpeted as the norm,

//aramaicherald.blogspot.com/2010/12/four-principles-of-moderate-islam.html

For an Islamic democracy

Persian supremism? Ha! Ha! Ha!

Re: Your Persian supremacism as opposed to Arabs is best
shown here.

Got the wrong horse, bro.  It's more straw man nonsense.   Not into nationalism, especially ultra-nationalism.

You must confuse me with certain monarchists here who find it useful for their own purposes--espcially Amir, who advocates an absolute monarch (akin to the fuehrer), a Greater Iran (look out Arab neighbors!), ethnic hostility, the kind of anti-capitalism typical of the right wing and xenophobic hatred of western secular democracies (seen as a rival countermodel).   Every single trait mentioned could come right from one of Hitler's speeches.

You don't have to be a Persian nationalist to be wary of religion centered parties in Iran today.  Where have you been living?   Most Iranians have as little use for Amir's Greater Persia dreams and xenophobic ultra-nationalism as they have for clerical rule or religion-based parties.

The header of your original post is based on an unproven premise.  There it begs the question (a formal logical fallacy).  SO PROVE YOUR PREMISE!  Monarchists say the same thing (Only monarchists can...) as do communists (Only communists can...). Repeating something endlessly does not make it more true.

I would say if your thesis were applied to Egypt or Syria, it might well apply.  I've described why they are different.  It has zero to do with ethnic differences or any implied sectarian inferiority.  It has to do with one group having not even a month of direct experience of life under clerical rule compared to 30+ years of ugly, ugly...UGLY experience.  They don't need to go through political kindergarten a second time.  Iranians did it the hard way.

Salman

Why don't you publish your data in a scholarly journal for all of us to
enjoy -   I am talking about you conversation with the GM leaders and
roof top shouters?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out these people are in favour of a more moderate version of Islam. You are telling me you have not been able to figure this out? Is Mousavi a hard line Muslim? Are those girls who wear the roosari half way on their heads very interested in the latest Fatwa from some smelly retard who has never shaved or showered but sits in Qom all day spouting nonsense? No, they are not.

And please let us know what you mean by "real islam". 

At the end of the day an extremist is just somebody who takes rules of a religion more seriously than others of that same faith. An extremist in the Muslim world is just someone who acts as the Quran asks them to and follows the rules set for them more closly than others. A different word for extremist could essentialy be  a purist. Al though I doubt there are many people who would be labeled as extemists  of any religion who follow every single rule set out by their religion. E.G the bible says not to mix fabrics, but even the most devout Christian usually ignores this.  

"What's the difference between "moderate Islam" and "extreme "

Dear GR:

1/infinity of a khar = ... = 1/1000 of a khar = 1/999 of a khar = 1/998 of a khar =... = 1/2 of a Khar = 1 khar! DNA-wise speaking....!

That's what moderate Islam is!

Happy new year!

Salman:

What is "moderate Islam?" What's the difference between "moderate Islam" and "extreme Islam." I am talking about their ideological differences!

Brother Bacheh

Why don't you publish your data in a scholarly journal for all of us to enjoy -   I am talking about you conversation with the GM leaders and roof top shouters?

And please let us know what you mean by "real islam". 

For an Islamic democracy

More on "moderate muslims"

I prefer moderate muslims to extreme muslims. 

I also prefer moderate Christians to extreme ones.

I prefer moderate Jews to extreme ones.  

I'm an atheist who sometimes volunteers to cook at my wife's moderate church.  If she were a moderate muslim  or moderate Jew I'd do the same.  However, I avoid evangelical churches like I'd avoid a radical mosque or a cult. 

In all three cases, I can't stand the latter not because of their beliefs but because they they can't keep their religion to themselves.  They insist on using the government to enforce it on others.   If you aren't interested in doing that, what's the whole point of a religion-based party?

In the West, moderate Christians OPPOSE religious parties and despise evangelicals who wear religion of their sleeves.  Extreme Hassidics, determined to enforce their beliefs, earn similar dislike in Israel.

A majority of high Ayatollahs in Iran (does this make them anti-religious?) and many MODERATE muslims in Iran have seen first hand how politics corrupts religion first hand. "No thanks.  No more.  Why do we NEED it?, they say. Check out the Borgias and Cardinal Richelieu for early examples.

I dislike the idea of religion in politics EXCEPT where the local culture makes secular parties unthinkable at present because of local and uninformed biases.  Parties formed on religious lines naturally invite divisive cleavages just as much as tribal, racial or ethnic parties.   That principle applies to the degree a society is not homgenous.   If there is no one else to pick on, a religious party will tend to go after atheists who are always fair game.

Time and again, I've cited moderate Erdogan's Party in Turkey as a valuable antidote to what Khamenei and Al Queda have to sell and recommend it to those two alternatives.

However, living in the USA I want to puke when I hear candidates catering to Christian evangelicals who insist every opponent pass some kind of religious purity test (See Bachman, Palin, Perry, etc.) or be proclaimed anti-God (Jefferson, a virtual atheist, would never have gotten their vote if he lived today, considering the rhetoric of their ministers. 

I wouldn't vote for any of these psycho-religious nut cases with a gun to my head.  What could be more arrogant than Jerry Falwell's political movement, the self-designated "Moral Majority?"  By implication,  the rest of us apparently belong to an "immoral minority."   

The other day Bachman attacked Obama for sending out Christmas cards showing a lit fireplace with a dog in front of it and a room for of presents with a well-lit Christmas tree.   Can you guess at her objection?  Spare me, Ms. Bachman!

"Moderate Islam is the ONLY effective opposition to the IRI"

True..............The later you swallow it, the bitterer it gets..........

Brother FG

Your concoted theories are the very reason the opposition to the IRI is so ineffective. Your Persian supremacism as opposed to Arabs is best shown here:

" Having not enjoyed such dubious pleasures, most  Arabs still retain too much faith in clerics to behave decently ..."

Thank you for reminding me to add one more ism to my list of failed isms: Persian supremicism.

By the way why do you think Iranians have moves past of the religipus parties? evidence please. And can you name a few of those top Ayatollahs who support separation of mosque and state?

For an Islamic democracy

Salman

Don't link me to some 10 minute  video from 2 years ago. If you have a point to make against what I have said then say it your self.

 Go and ask the leaders of the green movement if they are for moderate Islam. Guess what? They are going to say yes.

Go and ask the protestors shouting Ya hussein if they are for a more moderate Islam. Guess what? They are going to say yes.

A big part of the green movement was about changing the rules the real Muslims had made and replacing them with more moderate ones. Thus this makes the movement about moderate Islam. And it failed in every way.

To Salman Farsi

RE: If you don't like the idea of Arab moderate muslims.

Why lie?  Where did I say that?   Show the sentence and don't put words in my mouth.  I suggested Iranians have evolved past the need for sectarian parties (which includes religious parties).  For Arabs, moderate Islamic parties represent an advance.  You also fail to note than many top Ayatollahs argue the reglion and politics should be separate and that Khamenei best shows why.

You cheat with the old "straw man" technique in which one party (you) assigns a ludicrous position (see above) to another (me)--a position he hasn't taken--so as to have an easy target.   Perhaps you have reading problems.

Why not respond to what I ACTUALLY wrote instead?  Perhaps it is too difficult so you had no choice.

As for Israel, see what I wrote previously about Likud.  Hard-liners don't benefit from democracy (past polls show most Israelis disagree with them on West Bank settlements) but can have extra power when democracies rely on a proportional representation system.  I even explained why that electoral system makes it easier for extemists like Lukud/ Milosevic/Hitler by handicapping moderate and centrist parties. 

See my subpost on that here and read it this time.  If you need reading assistance, find someone to help you:

//iranian.com/main/blog/religionoutofgovernme...

Brother bacheh : learn from brother Dabashi and others

GM was and is a civil rights movement, Please grow up brother bacheh. 

Dabashi

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVQT2HH-_5Q

For an Islamic democracy

Salman

Please check your facts. The green movement has no single or overall
identity. It was/is a hodge podge of everything. There is no substantial
societal stratum as moderate muslims in Iran. This is why we are in the
mess we are in.  As in Egypt even the Islamic Brotherhood is not half
as extemist as they were thirty years ago so I don't know what you are
talking about brother.

The green movement is moderate Islam. It had clearly defined leaders in Mousavi and Karoubi. Both of whom where Muslims to less of an extreme than the hard liners.The protestors shouted Islamic slogans, but they where not as extreme as the hard liners. If that is not a movement that moderate Islam is involved in then nothing will meet your qualifications .Just because it failed doesn't mean you can say it was not. And the Islamic brother hood is not the same party as the Al Nour party.

You should wait until the Arab spring situation is resolved and some time has passed before you run around shouting about its success. 

Taliban brother Tavana

Your purist approach was rejected by Imam Ali (AS) who said " bring up your children according to the requirments of their times". How is Mola Omar these days brother?   

For an Islamic democracy