For an Islamic Democracy

عموجان

Thank you for your response.

YES I agree some muslems are stuck in the PAST. BUT is it fair to blame EVERYONE for it? Particularly a person like you who likes to see democracy in Iran.

You are not the only one who is amazed about news. In fact it is due to all these newspapers that there is islamofobia. Again does it make everyone guilty. ALSO it seems, at least regarding some papers, anything which is strange needs to be broadcasted as long as it is related to islam. Sometimes it is NOT necessary to refer to religion at all. For example if I ask you what is your religion or some of IC's bloggers' religion all of you tend to say what your religion has to do with your comments. However in newspapers it is the other way. Being related to islam in itself is a news worthy issue. You maybe be interested to know fanatic jews get young wifes. But do you ever read about it?? They also have animal killing very similar to muslems 'halal' killing. But do you ever hear about it?

If I may as a friend suggest to you do NOT let newspapers and generally news get to you.

Have a nice day.

Fairness and Equality in Justice

Dear Amirkabear, Old man I am.

But thanks, you just said it better than I could say it.

(IN THE PAST), that’s where Muslims are stuck in the past, and they are making life hard for those of us who want move forward.  

It amaze me every morning when I open news paper to read there is not one day without news about Muslims killing other Muslims in Muslims countries, and all because of old beliefs.

My comment may sound fanatics but I don’t have any followers to implement them except people like you who read them. 

Did I mention I use to be a Muslim, now I only look in to the future

عموجان

You need help mashty. I won't say people like you do it with young boys as it might excite you. Judging from your usual comments you are not any better than islamic fanatics. Your mind is in need of updating.

What you said here is probably what YOUR family were practicing as islam.

Also from your comments it seems you are an old man with a shortage of general information. For your information IN THE PAST it was a common practice for rich men to get very young wifes. This custom included romans, vikings, persian, chinese and arabs.

@Rea

//www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopo...

Sister Rea

Islam is NOT ONLY a personal/private route to eternal salvation BUT ALSO a public way of life. Therefore it was intertwined with the question of governance from inception.  It is much easier to be a Christian politician than a Muslim one. This is why there has been no solution to the dilemma of politics-free Islam. Even the pre-IRI constitution had incorporated a role for Islamic influence. This is why I am suggesting that in line with a numbe rof Arab and African muslim countries Iranian must encourage and adhere to the moderate Islamic principles which is the closest you can get to the true Islam. 

For an Islamic democracy

Difference between moderate and fanatic Muslims?

Moderates welling to wait till after wedding to rape 9 year old, fanatics do it before.

Brother Rahmanian which part of this statement is unclear to you

"Muslims do not commit acts of violence against civilians"

Are you really suggesting that every and any question that you ask, which is either based on a flawed premise OR has an uderlying agenda must be regarded as a correctly conceived question? Perhaps you have been assigned the Grand Quiz matser by some divine force brother that I have missed so far? Can't you see the fallacy in your own questions before accusing others of the same charge? For instance If I ask your opinion about a cop who kills and robs  other cops, wouldn't you say that he must be a corrupt and indecent person, let alone a cop unworthy of the title of policeman or are you happy to continue with calling him a policeman? You have made a pre-determined assumption about muslims and Islam and now you seek to get endorsement from other Muslims.

I am not even talking about Islamic democracy at this point or in this blog but you keep going back to your fixated assumptions and want to prove to others that your falsely based assumtions about Islam are true. Had you asked me a "direct and not an oblique" question as you suggest, you wouldn't have said:

"Perhaps Salman Knew What I Was Gettimg At!" - Slaman knew of your hidden agenda brother.

Sorry bother but it didn't work this time. In furture please remember before you assume the supreme authority on being the grand quiz master remove the so obviously fallaciously conceived questions. You cannot expect an accurate answer to an inaccurate question brother Rahman. 

And I am not unhappy at all with being called an agentof the Ministry f Information - on the contrary I find it so amusing!

Vassalaam.  

For an Islamic democracy

The Wise BJ!

Not only the #12, as mentioned in Quran about the number of the prophet Moses' companions, brings up the similarity issue with the number of 'invented' Imams, the following alleged statement by Ali (a.s.):

"Bring up //your children (of Israel, perhaps???)// according to the requirments of their times"

abrogates whatever has been said by the blind followings of Sunnahs altogether!!!

P.S. Where did those children find all those birthdays/deathdays of the 12 imams & which child did issue a 'fatwa' for the rest of the children to celebrate/mourn on those occasions?

Interesting remark, Joubin

12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, 12 Shia imams. Never occured to me but, yes, it's telling. ;o)

@Salman F, due respect, it's all about "laïcité". 

Angela M., one of the most influential EU politicians, comes from Christian Democratic Union (christly conservative, may I put it that way). But it doesn't mean there is christian version of VF in Germany.

The essential point is: separation of state and religion.

"Brother Joubin please

"Brother Joubin please convey my regards to other Persiana freaks and tell them that the most quintessentially Persian faith/sect is the Shi'a faith. I can see that you have been charming the illusory sanke of a bygone era for quite a while brother"

And that is apropos of what, exactly?  

"tell them that the most quintessentially Persian faith/sect is the Shi'a faith."

The problem with your suggestion is that I happen to keep the company of the informed and they will laugh in my face.  The Muslims among them will tell me (because of your silly suggestion) that Islam is beyond national considerations.  The non Muslims among them will point out that the story of the 12 Shia Imams bears an uncanny resemblance to the story of the 12 Sons of Israel.  The caustic ones would be sure to suggest that Christ is an eminently Iranian notion. 

Anyhoo, the fact is that you already have in your possession the guidance from Ali.  What you need to ask yourself is who are "your" "children" ...

"Bring up //your children// according to the requirments of their times" 

Dear Salman:

You don't seem to understand that in order for anyone to have a clear understanding of where you're coming from they need to know whether you understand what democracy indeed means. Your failure to focus on the question and talk about totally irrelevant things while responding to me is tantamount to demagoguery. You fail to answer my questions and then claim I have some kind of agenda. At the same time, you seem upset because someone said you're an agent of IR's intelligence ministry. You're only happy when someone says something nice about this blog. Otherwise, you keep making confused statements. You're not the first person to talk about "moderate Islam" and you won't be the last. Recently, PMOI's Maryam Rajavi, talked about a similar thing. As a Muslim when fighting against the brutal Islamists of IR, Ms. Rajavi can use any metaphor she likes. It is in dealing with the rest of the ooposition forces that she will have to clarify her organization's stance regarding democracy. To most opposition forces "Islamic Democracy" is a monicker behind which lie the obscure agenda of those who promote such an idea.

Don't be ashamed Salman

I'm too much for this website. No one here can compete with me
intellectually. You are only another example of this Salman, no need to
be ashamed.

Brother Rahmanian

Firstly, thank you for gracing my blog by your out-of-ordinary presence in dealing with this nonissue topic. I try in future to choose an "issue" topic that in case you wished to grace my blog you won't feel so out-of-ordinary. Secondly, I apologize for giving you direct-opposed-to-your-agenda answers. It appears that you are not after answers but trying to get me to endorse your agenda. I am afraid I don't find myself worthy of this status. Thirdly, I had an unpredicted mission from Minstry of Inofrmation that lasted more than I had expected. Your complaint is passed to MoI.

Vassalam 

For an Islamic democracy

ای غوطه ور در جهل مبین!

"و چون لغوى بشنوند از آن روى برمى ‏تابند و مى ‏گويند كردارهاى ما از آن ما و كردارهاى شما از آن شماست. ‏سلام بر شما. ما جوياى [مصاحبت با] نادانان نيستيم. (قرآن آیه ٥٥ از سوره ٢٨)

همان بهتر خر بودن و از قرآن پوستش را نصیب بردن تا غرق شدن در تاریکی جهل و نادانی و بی نصیب ماندن از عقل و خرد!

سلام علیکم!

Dear Salman:

You wrote you'd be gone for a few hours, but you did not come back for 41 hours. Or one day and 17 hours. That's hardly "a few hours." I posted my last comment 25 hours and 41 minutes after you left. Ordinarily I don't deal with a nonissue such as the one you have raised here. So when I do get involved I expect direct responses to my direct questions. Unfortunately, however, you seem to enjoy beating around the bush and not coming to the point. That is a waste of time for me. So, enjoy the rest your hosting experience.

السلام و علیکم و رحمه الله

Thank you all borther and sisters who left comment on this blog. I had to be away for a day or two (ministry of Information related business -  just joking) and I can see already borther Rahmanian, has declared me as missing person. Well brother much that I hate to quote from Hashemi Rafsenjani but in his words: 

ما مهمونی‌ نیومده بودیم که پا شیم بریم

I am sorry that my answers have disappointed some of you like brothers Rahmanian, Bacheh of Shiraz, Joubin, Amir Parviz,  Borat and Cost of Progress.  The fact brothers is that I am not here to play your little agendas (i.e. to declare Islam as a monolithic faith). If this is what you are after, our Talibanist bother, Tavana is the right guy for you.  

Brother Joubin please convey my regards to other Persiana freaks and tell them that the most quintessentially Persian faith/sect is the Shi'a faith. I can see that you have been charming the illusory sanke of a bygone era for quite a while brother.

Brother MRX1 , as I said Shi'a faith is an inseperable component of our national identity. Please get used to it. It is good for your emotioal health brother.

Brother Amir Parviz, how do you know that people of Iran are after a secular democracy? Evidence brother evidence? 

Talibanist brother Tavana ,

If Islam was, "one size fits all" that you preach, then life would have been very boring brother. But the Almighty in His wisdom has created degrees of sophistication in understanding of Quran. You are obviously not a sophistcated brother and like everything Pure and Simple.  Mevlana Jalal-addin Rumi must have had your type of unsophisiticated in mind when he says:

 ما ز قرآن مغز را برداشتیم/ پوست را بهر خران بگذاشتیم

Does it sound familiar bother? 

Sister Rea, and Brothers Iraj Khan, Amirkabir, Iran2050 and Maziar,

Thanks for your rational comments. 

والسّلام و علی‌ من التبع الهدی 

For an Islamic democracy

Definitely the misguided

Definitely the misguided bigot notion that Islam is to blame for Iran's challenges only stems from the racist intolerant behavior of many Iranians. Iran's problems should be traced back to us and how we interact with other Iranians in society, not with what Islam preaches as rituals. Also certainly what the Akhoondi regime is preaching in Iran has absolutely nothing to do with true Islam. There is no place in Islam for Vali Faghih, for Mehdi's comeback, for Ashoora, and for all the other so called "Islam naab mohammadi" perpetuated by the regime.

If anything, what they preach is more Zaroastrian than Islam, since shite is a copy of Zaroastrianism, according to many anti Islam Iranian themselves! That being said, I dont think moderate Islam is the "only" way to defeat IRI. I think true Islam is moderate, however, Islam, just like any other religion or ideology can be intrepreted peacefully or in an extreme fashion.

What we need is a state that is separate from religion, and that is ANY religion, if we think we should kick Islam (Or what IRI preaches as Islam) from the state and replace it with Zaroastrian or anything else, we are just going from one hole to another.

Lets call for a secular Iran and a state separated from religion, ANY religion.  

Modernize Islam????

Please do not blame/curse/divide/modernize/modify/redefine/secularize/etc 'Islam' but let's ameliorate/authenticate/blame/change/correct/improve/modernize/etc ourselves to become better humans/people!

".............surely GOD does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition;...................." (Quran 13:11)

Perhaps Salman Knew What I Was Gettimg At!

Perhaps Salman Knew What I Was Gettimg At that's why he ran away. As I have said below SF is debating nomissues. Moderate or extreme Islam don't make any difference in a democracy. It's the law that determines citizens' rights.

Moderate Islam?

Sounds like a phenomenon on par with others, like kosher pork or shellfish, or being "sort of" pregnant or "kind of" a virgin.

In other words, there is no such thing, that being in the context of governance in modern society.

If Moderate Islam

is to bring modernity to Islam

then,

Yes it's the most probable/possible way out of the present situation.

Nothing Is Permanent.

Only in theocracies like SA

.... or in semi-theocracies like IRI is opposition required to be "moderately islamic" in order to be effective.

Otherwise, it's simply opposition. Opposed, tout court.

Yeah, I met a moderate....

Arab family a few nights ago.

The guy had been here for 30 years and has managed to make a great life for himself and his family....but he could not stop bad mouthing America. It was the usual stuff that all of you guys blabber about everday. Funny thing is that you continue to live in the west and enjoy the very freedom that you are denied elsewhere.

BTW, are moderate moslams the ones who drink, eat pork and go to disco with their "gerfriends" only to turn around and preach the greatness of Islam to others? 

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

..?

moderate Islam is already here in America.

with Alaki moslem (Iranians) in california,and brain washed ARABS of all other nations scattered from maine to florida and all in between BUT they live in afree society under democratic laws.

Iranians were promised FREE houses,free electricity,ootoboos az mini boos bozorg tar ast....look at where they're now.

they don't need democratic Islam when they can come and live in Michigan and eat fry fish for the whole winter.

 Maziar

no sense at all

Exactly why the regime in Iran is anti islamic? It is islamic, get over it! what makes some of you folks insane is becuase you are  dilliusional! you think some how some where  out there there is this islam that apparently did not even exist at the time of mohammad, ali and hossein and the rest of thugs and murderes in Arabia and yet you think you can put some make up on it and present this dead horse as green, yellow, purpolse or what ever the flavor of the day is for the next several hundred years.

Islam is an alian culture. it's a culture of the occupiers that have occcupied Iran for thousend plus years now. IF egypt, tunis and others are reverting back to islam it's good! Arabs are going back to their roots and culture trying to find a path and I think in the long run they will succeed. We need to do the same thing by going to our roots and findour path.The only way out of this mess is resurection of Iran, a unique country with uniqe language, unique flag, cultures and icons with eye toward modernity otherwise why bother changing this with mossuvai, karoubi, MKO,etc,etc you simply are wasting your time and energy.

Good point SF

however a lot of muslems are not up to it as they think rising against extrimists is like rising agains islam itself.

You might be interested in this blog as well:

//iranian.com/main/blog/amirkabear4u/two-headed-snake 

Fairness and Equality in Justice

It is necessary to remark here, Salman, ...

... that by definition, for a Muslim believer, Islam is the path of truth.  Your position, should you care to reflect on it, is semantically unsustainable: moderate "truth"?  extremist "truth"?  A little truth?  A compromising truth?

The 'immodesty' of the current regime -- and its various hued power-dispossed fellow travelers --  is the acceptance of the arrogance of the very notion of Velayateh Faqih, much less cowering before such a figure.

Your immoderation is the presumption of the veracity of your judgment and and your innovative program of "reform".  So it should be clear to any clear minded person, that both you and the immoderate Islamists share the same fault of presuming to proscribe and innovate regarding the matter of Truth.

This is the crux of the matter.  

You -ic/-ism mindset is presumptive of an un-balanced power/knowledge/goodness relation between the agency that proffers the said ideological framework of action to those who are to receive it as a "continuation" of actual Guidance and accept it.

If you are as sincere as you wish to portray yourself regarding the religion, one assumes you have availed yourself of the extant documents regarding the projected charted course of the same religion, by the Prophet of the very same religion.

Per hadith, Islam is a stranger to this world at this time.  That "snake" has receded to a "hole". (Look it up.)

I guess that makes those believers who (perhaps through innocent error) presume to take responsibility in the matters of faith for persons other than their own self (and the minors -- their children, etc. -- under their responsible supervision) snake charmers who are trying to coax that snake out of its hole.  

Actually, should a believer care to think even more deeply and consider that Donya is "illusory" and "deceptive", then surely if the religion is a "snake" in donya, then clearly, the real snakes are the snake charmers ...

Let that snake be, is my sincere advice to you, if the eternal condition of your soul matters to you to any significant degree.

You say you are a Partisan of Ali.  Let me remind you that but for Hussein, none of the Imams of the Shia attempted any coaxing of the said snake out of its hole.  It would appear that such a responsibility was deemed to belong to the last of their line.  And they were not presumptuous, nor did they overreach.  And surely they were not snake charmers.  

One would think that the reason (beyond the obvious solid education they must have received regarding the religion) they were so carefully reticent regarding these matters is that they fear God.  The True mark of a "holy" man.

And the religious ideologue fears God not at all!  Who, but the most reckless of souls, would presume such responsibilities?  

Attend to your own soul and your own condition, "Salman Farsi" (yet another presumptuous matter on your part ...) .  

And trust in your lord, if indeed you are a believer.  And fear him, too.  Surely he has power to set all things Straight, and he has assigned neither you, nor Qom inc., as delegates.

Clairvoyance

"This character is straight out of Vzarat Etteleat, a true waste of time, every single time."

A clairvoyant/wise remark! 

Salman you can say that the entire clerical system

of Iran and Qom are not true muslims, because they use violence on muslims, but if you were to look at the truth instead, you'd see that these IRI guys are muslims, lets agree with you that they are corrupt islamic authorities and not genuine ones, but can you see why Iranians therefore need a secular system or are you just going to say your piece without any basis in reality and insist on it?  Iranians, do not want Democracy Salman.  Iranians want Secular Democracy.  Not being aware of that means you misunderstand who and what the effective opposition to IRI is.  In fact in order to defend Iranian culture from the Influence of Islamic teachings many Iranians now insist on a defender of their own culture as well as a secular democracy, many iranians also want a secular monarchy.

...

This character is straight out of Vzarat Etteleat, a true waste of time, every single time.