2010 Sacred Defense Parade

Sargord Pirouz
by Sargord Pirouz
23-Sep-2010
 

Video of the annual military parade in Tehran, September 22, 2010. 

 

H/T shelock72 at YouTube 

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Sargord Pirouz

Roozbeh

by Sargord Pirouz on

That was certainly the case for some of the military leadership during the 90s and early 00s (of which Firuzabadi was the leading example).

But the more recent leaders being advanced look all-business. Case in point: IRGC Maj. Gen. Jafari. 


Fair

Q+self proclaimed major

by Fair on

There you go again completely twisting things around and having a discussion with yourself.  I have asked a very simple question, it is very clear what I mean- share with us the western equivalent of Ansare hezbollah used for crowd control in the US or Europe.  You haven't.  Not one instance.  So in fact it is you who lose, and lose misrably, fall flat on your face yet once again, and insist that night is day.  If you want to keep coming here and continue to make a complete fool of yourself, go right ahead, I cannot say I would be surprised.

self prcolaimed major Mark- you can be factually correct and yet deceptive at the same time.  All you have to do is provide selective facts and avoid inconvenient ones.  It is called being one sided.   You claimed that the IRI hasn't used armored vehicles for crowd control whereas the US and Europe have.  That is an incomplete picture and misleading.  The IRI has an army of thugs called Anare Hezbollah and other militia at its disposal for attacking people in the streets, negating the need for armored vehicles.  I will not bother to repeat myself further, all that has needed to be said has been said.

Also, regarding T-72's vs M1's- indeed the shell of the M1A1 has been upgraded, and its main gun system has been improved to the 120mm system developed for the German Leopard 2 system, which is one of the reasons why they could knock out Iraqi T-72's easily in 1991.  Meanwhile, you say the Iranian T-72 has been upgraded with ERA.  So then  has the Iranian T-72's shell or main gun system also been upgraded?  Has the range been improved?  If not, then the T-72's are still at (at least) the same disadvantage because of the T-72's range shortfall, making it a sitting duck in a tank on tank battle.

And finally, this blog was about the sacred defense week parade, then went to crowd control in Iran.  As usual, for some reason a  comparison with what the US and Europe does quickly came into the discussion.  The comparison was both bogus and irrelevant. End of story.


Sargord Pirouz

Anon and Fair

by Sargord Pirouz on

Anon, please, you're ill informed about both the M1 and T-72. Your statement regarding both types is factually incorrect. For example, the M1A1 does not use "the same shells," its main armament was upgraded from a rifled 105 to a 120 mm smoothbore. And the Iranian T-72 has seen many modifications, the most obvious being the use of explosive reactive armor (ERA).

Fair, your statement claims that I'm deceptive, yet you agree that what I've actually written is factually correct. Then you devolve the discussion further into methods of crowd control. My suggestion is for you to upload a blog post on Iranian methods of crowd control, and I will likely comment.


Q

It's cute as predicted!

by Q on

you can label me all you want but you are desperately palying a shell game, a red herring. I also got a chuckle out of you claiming my quotes of your own words are putting "words in your mouth". Of course, that's true, it's your own words!

"Army" is just a label for it. It doesn't matter if that's what it's called or not. As I said (and you conviniently ignored), we can call the palinclothes officers an 'army' if you like.

You are desperately trying to avoid the main issue which is your false claim that these plainclothes crowd control tactics are not used by the West. Even though we both know just as many atrocities if not more are committed by them all the time.

This is nothing new, by the way. It's an old argument, just like the Israeli argument that "bombings" are not terrorism: you are giving the West a pass only through some BS shell game.

It's also very cute how you claim you are agains the PATRIOT act abuses, but have swallowed whole the same exact Orwellian newspeak that it revived about American exceptionalism: basically whatever we do is justified, and whatever they do is terrorism. Even when we kill people, we are basically good! "They" have terrorist armies, not us! So... cute!

If you were in any way fair or sincere, you would acknowledge that it's not about naming something an army it's about the human rights violated by the plainclothes tactics.

You lost the main point: US/Europe does use a plainclothes "army" in addition vehicles at the same time.

You lost this point only out of your desire to paint IRI as more sinister in crowd control even though it does not use heavy equipment.

That's the reason you've lost a lot of things actually. Nothing you can do about it.


Fair

Twist and turn as much as you want

by Fair on

I said these two things:

I never say that US and Europe law enforcement are innocent...

If the US and Europe allowed themselves this method of "crowd control" they wouldn't need vehicles either.

And I stand by both of them, and you have proven neither of them wrong. The first statement is about innocence in general, not in crowd control, and I never said so.  You chose to put words in my mouth and twist it for your purposes as usual.

You have not shown where the US and Europe use an army of plainclothes armed thugs in large numbers on the streets against civilian population with total impunity, as the Ansare Hezbollah does.  I am also against the patriot act and other anti civil liberty actions in the US, but these are two different things.  Furthermore, even patriot act had to go through congress.  So no, it is not the same as ONE unelected leader for life like the supreme pizza unilaterally declaring war on the OPPOSITION (the patriot act is against terrorists, not the opposition party.  while this does not excuse the patriot act, there still is a difference).

And you say there are laws in the IRI and DA's etc look the other way.  Are you saying that Ansare Hezbollah is an illegal organization? Are you saying that Khamenei's war declaration on the opposition to his policies are illegal?  Because if it is, it is much more than DA's etc. "looking the other way".  It is the top authority of the system being illegal and illegitimate, and required to step down.

Is that what you are saying?  

I don't care what anyone's belief or stance or agenda is.  All I ask is try to be fair in comparisons and compare apples to apples, not apples to watermelons.

So no Q, you have shown nothing except your usual willingness to attack people when you cannot provide a strong fair argument.  


Q

vildemose, agreed

by Q on

Comparing the US with IRI to justify either entity is an exercise in futility

Those who deliberately resort to such propaganda have other agendas.

Agreed. But please enlighten us, what kind of agendas do you think opportunits who only bring up this fact when things aren't going their way, have?

When was the last time such a comparison was being made to argue against the IRI, that you showed up to remind us that comparison is an "exercise in futility?"


vildemose

Comparing the US with IRI

by vildemose on

Comparing the US with IRI to justify either entity is an exercise in futility and will not help either country from falling off a cliff.

Those who deliberately resort to such propaganda have other agendas.


Q

OK Fair,

by Q on

On the subject of plainclothes method of crowd control where abuses take place:

I never say that US and Europe law enforcement are innocent...

That's exactly what you said:

If the US and Europe allowed themselves this method of "crowd control" they wouldn't need vehicles either.

Second, there are laws in Iran too. People look the other way, just like DA's and police investigations in Europe are often a sham.

In your typical unfair fashion, you come up with a bunch of nonsequitor labels to try to hide the fact that plainclothese police in the US, UK, Canada dand Europe, routines violate human rights leading to deaths, injuries and unjust treatment. I seriously don't understand why this is any different with plainclothes bassijis that you said are used for "crowd control."

Maybe we should call this parennial epidemic of illegal police violence a "terrorist army", and then you would finally see that a guy being beaten up in UK is just as bad as one in Iran?

G.W. Bush's fear-based repugnant PATRIOT act took away many civil liberties and lead to much unjustified jailing, including Iranian Americans who lost months or years of their lives waiting in jail in the post-9/11 roundups. Many others were abused and beaten up by "patriot cops" while in prison.

So there's your Western "unelected" leader declaring war on his own people. Any questions?

In any case, whatever name you want to give it, it's clear that your original argument was false that the Western governments do use plainclothes officers as well as AFVs and AWCVs .

Now, you're welcome to make cute excuses or change the subject all you want.


Fair

More deception

by Fair on

Q states:

Serious human rights abuses by under cover and plain clothes Police in US/Canada/Europe happen all the time, probably more often than in Iran. 

Perhaps you can share with us when the US or European intelligence agencies raided student dormitories and threw students off balconies and destroyed their dormitories?  Or went and assasinated writers in chain murders?  Or sent thugs on motorcycles with guns into crowds and killed peaceful protestors in cold blood deliberately like your beloved leader did with Neda and so many others?  Or went and arrested thousands of people in the streets, held them without trial or representation or charge, and then put on show trials which were a joke to be televised to the whole world?  Or send thugs on motorcycles to vandalize and threaten RELIGIOUS opposition (don't even bother with non religious ones, or are they not worthy of your attentions?)  Or when they went into universities and purged whole groups of professors for not passing a religious tests? Need I go on?  And in all these cases, not only they were not considered "abuses" by the government, they were officially sanctioned by high ranking officials- all the way up to the supreme pizza himself.

In short, I like your definition of "probably":)  

 

 


Fair

Q

by Fair on

Abuses and violations are one thing.  An army of terrorists openly deployed on the streets of a capital with full legal permission to do what they want with a peaceful opposition is another.

I never say that US and Europe law enforcement are innocent and abuses don't happen.  All I say is that if you are going to compare one side to the other, be fair about it.  The fact remains that the US and Europe do not have the equivalent of "ansare hezbollah", an army of terrorists which can be deployed in the streets in large numbers wielding weapons and clubs and knives that have full legal permission to do anything they want to unarmed peaceful protestors.  There are still laws in western countries, and people sue and win over law enforcement agencies all the time. (Do 5 MORE minutes of google search and you will see).  In Iran they attack defense lawyers and take their families hostage.  So no, I am not the one being deceptive, you are as usual, and as usual you are doing so blatantly and arrogantly.

So can you share with us which organization in the US and Europe are the equivalent of Ansare Hezbollah?  Which unelected leader in any of these countries has gone on television and declared war on his own people, and then unleashed this army on his own people?

 


Q

EVEN more deception

by Q on

(un)Fair, jan,

Isn't it disturbing that I saw your comment, and even without reading the text, I knew you had probably lied or made "unfair" comparisons as you laughably argue against?

If the US and Europe allowed themselves this method of "crowd control" they wouldn't need vehicles either.

You're kidding right? Your child like faith in Western countries being morally superior is so increadibly cute!

Serious human rights abuses by under cover and plain clothes Police in US/Canada/Europe happen all the time, probably more often than in Iran. The officers engage in illegal activity, often posing as protestors or starting riots themselves. Only once in a while they get caught and rarely do they get any serious punishment. There are countless citizen groups dedicated ending these practices but nothing serious has happened in decades. This is just what I could find from a 5 minute Google search on these atrocities.

//www.sfmuseum.org/hist4/maritime17.html
//www.infowars.com/articles/ps/spp_montebello...
//www.frequency.com/video/raw-footage/140764?...
//thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/did-un...
//www.nbcwashington.com/weather/stories/Eyewi...
//www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/24/strathcly...
//articles.sfgate.com/2003-11-23/news/1751958...
//boingboing.net/2009/05/09/brit-mp-saw-under...
//earthhopenetwork.net/forum/showthread.php?t...
//cryptome.org/info/protest-cops/protest-cops...

I'm not sure I'll be around to hear your excuses defending these atrocities simply because they are not done by IRI, but I'm certain your explanation will be adorable!


Fair

More deception

by Fair on

from the stateless terrorist self proclaimed major.

AFV's and AWCV's have indeed been used for crowd control in US and Europe.  IRI doesn't need them because it has a terrorist plainclothes army with license to do anything it wants to Iranian citizens given to it by none other than the "supreme leader" itself, including murder, torture, imprisonment, and disappearance in large numbers.  They are accountable to no one.

If the US and Europe allowed themselves this method of "crowd control" they wouldn't need vehicles either.

And finally, as AO pointed out, comparing one bad thing to another is a sign of weakness and poor position.  If you are going to compare the two sides, you should also compare their good things.  Perhaps before you let them off the hook by just comparing their bad things to the US and Europe you could share with us all the contributions made by the Islamic republic to humanity in the fields of science, technology, medicine, education, industry, and economics in the last 30 years compared to the US and Europe. Unless you think Iranians are less deserving than Americans and Europeans and should not expect any better.


Anonymous Observer

Mark, first of all

by Anonymous Observer on

US M1's have been upgraded many times since they went into service in 1980, both mechanically and electronically.  The only things that is left from the original models (many of which have been replaced with newly manufactured ones) are the shells.  IR's T-72's are, on the other hand, the same old clunkers that were manufactured forty years ago (I was actually wrong.  It was 40 years ago as opposed to 30 years ago).

Also, as Fair pointed out, we saw what happened to Saddam's T-72's.  They became better target practice tools for U.S. pilots and soldiers than what they had in their training sessions.  

Lastly, you do realize that comparing one bad thing to another (which is what you IRI zombies immediately do) is a sign of weakness, right?

PS- It appears that IRI has set 40 years as the minimum age of any military equipment that they have in their inventory. They should now concentrate all their efforts on inventing a time machine so that they could go back in time and fight a country in WWII.  They'll do great in that battle:-))) 


Sargord Pirouz

Bush

by Sargord Pirouz on

There is no credible evidence that AFVs or even AWCVs have been used in Iran for crowd control purposes, following the 2009 election. (which is surprising)

However, AFVs and AWCVs have been used for crowd control purposes in both the US and Europe, throughout the past 5 years.


bushtheliberator

Iran, like China,only needs tanks for crowd control,not combat.

by bushtheliberator on

but if the IRI pushes to a civil war,who will be in the driver's seat ?


Fair

No it doesn't

by Fair on

Just that a 30 year old M1 is not comparable to a 30 year old T-72 as you suggested.  Indeed they should field MBT's and they are doing the best they can and that is good.  It would be better in my opinion if these indigenous efforts would be supplemented by purchases of foreign technology that is hard to (and inefficient to) replicate at home.  India follows this approach (as well as many other countries) and it works quite well.  Perhaps one day when we overcome the fascists and become a democratic country we can do that too.

As far as facing off with the US, of course it is ridiculous to even consider, unless you have a nuclear deterrent and/or are another superpower (and even then some).  The SSM programs are not much bang for your buck unless you have nuclear weapons.  The main threat today to Iran is from an air attack, and the main deterrent to that is mostly economic and geopolitical, which of course is in Iran's favor (thank God because I do not want to see any attack on Iran ever again).

In the meantime, like I said, it is fortunate that we do not face a land threat from anybody at this time.  This sort of doctrine would definitely not have worked during the cold war.


Sargord Pirouz

Well, Fair, Iran doesn't

by Sargord Pirouz on

Well, Fair, Iran doesn't have access to the M1, nor Leopard, LeClerk, etc. A lot of countries don't, for a variety of reasons. Does that mean all those countries shouldn't field a MBT?

Besides, the Iranians aren't into spending excessive sums on weaponry, and the investments they do make are on indigenous, most bang-for-the buck types such as their SSM programs. It actually makes sense,,given their restrictions, needs and overall defense strategy based on deterrence.

Even if Iran had M1s and F-16s, it wouldn't make any difference facing off with the US military. But what Iran has, in combination with its strategic position, has been enough to deter attack, up to this point. And that says a lot. 


Fair

The point is

by Fair on

that the "30 year old" M1 kicked the sh*t out of the T-72's in Iraq 19 years ago with a kill ratio of over 20 to 1. It had a superior range than the T-72, and could kill a T-72 before the T-72 could close in to within firing range. The US army basically chased those guys out of Kuwait in a rolling turkey shoot. (btw, Iraq manufactured T-72's back then)

The M1 (especially the M1A2) is a modern day state of the art tank.  T-72's would be target practice today.


Sargord Pirouz

Kazem

by Sargord Pirouz on

That was something of an attraction for this parade. Those two Iranian M113 APCs were envisioned as UN peacekeeping forces. 

I think it's something of a big public hint that Iran is up for such.

But to answer your question, I believe there are only two Iranian officials involved with the UN peacekeeping effort, and none are currently deployed in the field  as part of a significant peacekeeping operation. (Anyone know differently?)


kazem0574

Do IR forces do any UN work?

by kazem0574 on

What's with the UN stuff? Where do they play their UN role?


Sargord Pirouz

Anon

by Sargord Pirouz on

The US military uses the 30 year old M1 Abrams MBT, so what's your point?

I understand the audio track of the YTVs just fine.

Any other ignorant comments to make? 


Anonymous Observer

BTW, Mark, I know that you don't speak Farsi

by Anonymous Observer on

but you may want to have someone translate these videos for you, because I don't think that this is Iran, even though the announcer speaks Persian.  Because nowhere in the video does the announcer mention an Iranian military.  He keeps talking about "Islam's army".  What country does that belong to? Do you know?  My guess is Saudi Arabia, being that it's the birthplace of Islam and all.


Fair

Nice Parade-Vintage pieces

by Fair on

But good thing nobody actually has any designs to invade and hold Iranian territory today. Then we would need a bona fide armed forces that could actually defend the country.  Like we had 32 years ago (and were facing real threats of invasion from the west and the north).

 

 


Anonymous Observer

Soooo, Mark, the 30 year old T-72 is IR's main battle tank?!!!

by Anonymous Observer on

I guess it IS serving its purpose...which is being paraded out once a year on the back of a flatbed to impress the gullible.  God forbid for that clunker to have to go into actual battle.  It will be blown to smithereens before it will get a chance to start its engine.

And also, can you tell us what military command school the fatso Firouzabadi has attended to be qualified as Commander of Joint Chiefs of Staff?   

What a shame...what we were and what we have become...


Faramarz

A Regional Power with a Sense of Humor!

by Faramarz on

The Regime military heads are either completely clueless or have a good sense of humor!

Check this one out!

An attack ship on the back of a flatbed truck!

This is like a land-based amphibious ship ready to attack the US navy from the mosque!

 

//www.farsnews.net/plarg.php?nn=M657560.jpg


Sargord Pirouz

Majid, that's actually an

by Sargord Pirouz on

Majid, that's actually an American designation for the US-built Mk 82 Retarded general-purpose bomb, featuring a standard Mk 82 with a ballute- a drag-producing mechanism that ensures the bomb falls well behind the launch aircraft before impact and detonation. A bomb fitted with a retarder is, of course, known as a "retarded" bomb.

But it is a funny name, isn't it. Especially when it's emblazoned in big red lettering across a white field. I suppose Iran's arms industry is proud of their homebuilt renovated stocks and equivalents. 


Majid

فرامرز......

Majid


 

توی لینک سوّمی که گذاشتی //www.farsnews.net/plarg.php?nn=M657523.jpg سمت چپ عکس چی نوشته؟

نوشته «ما در جنگ ابهّت در رؤیایمان شورت شرق و غرب را شُستیم؟

تصویر زیاد واضح نیست!


Sargord Pirouz

I remember that pic, Amir.

by Sargord Pirouz on

I remember that pic, Amir.

These days, he'd almost make a good pitch man for Nutrisystem, he seems to have lost about 100 pounds. (Move over Dan Marino and Marie Osmond!)

I believe he stood at attention for the duration of the parade, which was also surprising.

I wonder if Khamanei or a vice president was considered in place of the absent president. 


AMIR1973

"Firuzabadi's military bearing" :-)

by AMIR1973 on

  //www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Hassan_Firouzabadi.jpg 

Sargord Pirouz

Enjoyed the funny

by Sargord Pirouz on

Enjoyed the funny commentary, Faramarz.

No big surprises in this parade. Better outfitting, ATVs replacing motorcycles...

The Iranian AFVs envisioned in a UN peacekeeping role was a hoot.

IRGC usage of the S-5.56 was interesting.

And, of course, for the first time the parade was presided over by a military commander, as the head of state is currently in NYC. I must say, Firuzabadi's military bearing appeared uncharacteristically impressive.