Shiro-Khorshid-Forever

Thoughts on Ganji

First of all I want to thank Sayeh for posting this article because it at least prompted me to think about and research who Ganji is.  I have always respected people who don't follow the crowd and stick their head out.  If we had more people like this before the revolution, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today, cause maybe some of the people would have actually read some of Khomeini's words ( //gemsofislamism.tripod.com/khomeini_works.ht... ) before going out in the streets for him. 

Below are my thoughts about Ganji:

1) It seems that he is more concerned about the Palestenian and Jewish situation than Iran.  This really disturbs me cause I am neither Arab or Jew.  I am Persian.  I do not care what goes on in Palestine.  When my own house is on fire, I don't try to save my neighbors house from fire damage ...Thumbs down to Ganji on this.

2) Ganji was an insider of the Islamic Republic.  He worked for the Ministery of Intelligence for the Islamic Republic.  Today, he is still a reformist and does not seem to want to have this regime uprooted, or at least he is not making his stand clear on this very important issue.  He seems to be more vocal and forthcoming about condemning US policies than uprooting this regime...Thumbs down to Ganji on this.

3) Through his books he has opened the eyes of the world on some of the facism that has gone on during the reign of the regime.  He has supposedly been on hunger strikes which I do not know the details of and I am sure most people here don't either...but regardless, Thumbs up to Ganji on this.

4) Although his background is quite unique, Ganji is not an intellectual and people should not treat him as such.  His humanitarian work aside, I do not think he has the brains to be treated as an intellectual leader.  If you wanna follow intellectuals, follow people like Mr. Bahram Moshiri or someone else who has actually read some history books and has the credentials to be an intellectual leader.  No thumbs up or down on this.

Thank you again for your post after attending the event.  I hope more people would have the guts to speak out when they see something wrong instead of not pay attention to someone's speech and just clap along with others when the speech is done.

That sums it up

If one group description of the other is like this, I don't think any side can claim 'healing process'.

nice answer Siavash

round of applause for mister siavash.... round of applause please. ---well said !!!

I was also there at that event

and here is what really happened:

First of all, Mr Ganji could not attend the event, not for some "unknown reason" as the author said but because his flight from Vancouver was delayed. The organizers of the events explained this several times.

secondly, Mr Akhavan and Mr Jahanbegloo are NOT "pro-regime" apologists. Mr Akhavan is one of the most respected international lawers in the world. He is currently building a case in the Internation Criminal Court against the criminals of the I.R. He is the one who pressured the Canadian government to take position and seek justice in the case of Zahra Kazemi murder. He is a Bahai who can not return to Iran and has not been there for the past 35 years!!

Mr Jahanbegloo is a prominent university professor and academic. He specializes in the study of non-violent movements. He use to work with NED (National Endowment of Democracy). And the last time he went to Iran he was arrested and jailed on the accusation of trying to "topple the regime"!

Such "pro-regime" apologists huh?!

Thirdly, Jahanbegloo and Akhavan's presentations were both very very deep and educational for everyone in the audiance. They both made it very clear that the Iranian society HAS TO bring the I.R criminals to justice. But they said that his is part of the proccess of our "healing" as a socity and not a matter of pure vengence. They  said that it is not enough to deal with the individuals who have committed crimes and torture. We also need to break the cycle of violence and identify those elements into our own culture that keep producing this level of violence in our society and political scene.

Everyone in the crowd understood these concepts every well (whether they agreed with it or not) except the usual crowd of rude thugs and goons who appear at every Iranian gathering in Toronto; shouting and swearing at people, beating people up at rallies, waving their flags into people's faces, screaming "death to this and that " during speeches and ruining every intellectual event that Iranians organize in this city. These people are the closest thing to the I.R "lebas shakhsis" and "ansar hezbollah" who also used to go at every speech in the University of Tehran and do the exact same things.

Most of them belong to monarchist radical groups,  The "Communist Kargari" party and the MKO. They have recently befriended each other and allied to intimidate people at every gather in the support of the Green movement. The Iranian community in Toronto has boycotted a store belonging to one of these thugs because last month he PUNCHED A WOMAN in the mouth inside the store, apparently during an argument over "the flag"!

Anyway, back to the event: At first they tried to disrupt Jahanbeloo's speech, as some of them who were standing in the hall outside, opened the door and started yelling "Marg bar Ganji", "Marg bar ghaazi" (calling Akhvan "ghaazi" because he is a law professor!!!) and some other slogans. Jahanbegloo joked about it and said that he had never heard anyone chant slogans against him as he has never been part of any political organization, and considered it as an interesting experience.

Then after a short break the Q&A session began. For some reason none of these people had understood the slightest thing about the ideas that the two speakers had presented. So they kept coming back with the same stupid questions (throwing in false accusations and labellings) over and over and over again in Persian (the program itself was conducted in english). Every time one of them would rise and make a speech (instead of asking a direct question) the others in the gang would start cheering and yelling and applauding him/her in a loud and annoying manner while the rest of the 200-250 people in the audience would remain silent and just shaking their heads in dismay.  They irritated the audiance and the guest speakers so much that Jahanbegloo decided to switch to Persian and try to explain the concept of to them in a very simple and clear language. But that didn't work either.

Near the end of the program one of them who had brought a Shir o Khorshid flag into the room with him and had hung posters and flags all over his body, stood up and started SHOUTING slogans like a mad basiji in Namaz Jomeh. And right away the rest of them followed him by repeating his slogans; "Man az khooneh baradaram nemigzaram", "Marg bar Ganji", "Marg bar this", "marg bar that"...The crowd responded by pounding on their desks and chanting "peace, peace, peace.." until these thugs left the room.   

So Mrs Sayeh Hassan! Jahanbeloo and Akhavan have nothing to be ashamed of. They are internationally respected academics who had come to share their views and perspectives in a UNIVERSITY classroom with people who had come to listen. 

It is YOU and your gang of Lebas shakhsis and thugs who should be ashamed of yourselves for acting in such an undemocratic, rude and uncivilized manner and bringing shame (and dragging the Toronto Police!) to every gathering organized by the Iranian community.

Dear benross

Reading through your posts I find myself in the same boat as you when it comes to Mr. Ganji. I didn’t know (and still don’t know) much about his history. Whether he was a torturer or not I will never know. I learned about him only as an opposition figurehead and just for that reason had a blind respect for him. This was until a few weeks ago when I came across his speech (on this site) to a group of celebrities in front UN who had gone on a symbolic 3-days hunger strike in support of the recent movement in Iran.

Every ounce of respect that I had for this gentleman evaporated when I listened to his speech for that particular occasion. Instead of supporting the movement’s struggle for human rights and democracy, he kept on ranting against violation of human rights by the west and how corrupt the security council of the UN is. He acted as the strongest propaganda mouthpiece for the IRI (intentional or un-intentional).  I am not advocating any conspiracy theory about him being an agent of the IRI. But, IMHO, he is so deeply brainwashed by the IRI system, that, in spite of his conscience about human rights, he blames everything on outside forces.

I beg others on this thread to point me to Mr. Ganji’s position with regard to a secular democracy in Iran.

As to Ms. Hassan’s blog about the event at the University of Toronto, I can’t pass any judgment about the two gentlemen because I don’t know them. However, I wholeheartedly believe that IRI (or any other theocratic regime for that matter) cannot be reformed into a true democracy. Those who believe that IRI can peacefully be transformed into a democracy are having a wet dream (In my opinion). The IRI will be uprooted only with a bloody revolution (this may not sound very democratic, but that’s the reality). Whether that revolution comes with a flag that has a dog and a moon on it or a lion and a sun makes absolutely no difference. Let’s just hope that a visionary leader emerges to educate and energize the masses so that the amount of blood on the streets is minimized.   

My concern

I fully support green movement INSIDE Iran and I don't think here there is any issue between what I support and what Ganji does. I don't even have any issue with Mr. Ganji per se.

My bewilderment is not about him. It is about the nature of political activities of Iranians OUTSIDE of Iran which has led to manufacturing a public figure. I'm not concerned about him. I'm concerned about everybody else. Those who signed petitions supporting his freedom and his accreditations in International forums. What was the criteria of choosing this prisoner among thousand others to be freed and to be accredited and to become a public figure? What part 'public' has played in this process? This is the part of issue that bewilders me because it awfully smells like a covert operation using activists rather than a healthy political activity on the part of Iranian activists abroad. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just saying it is weird. This is an investigative journalism material. That's all I'm saying. Otherwise I personally have outmost respect for Mr. Moosavi, Mr. Khatami (I had it even back when I was in Iran) and Mr. Karoobi. I also respect Mr. Ganji for what he is doing.

I just need more transparency from political activities abroad. This is not aimed at Mr. Ganji. Here, I am not talking about inside Iran politics. I'm talking about outside.

Mr. KouroshS

Your point is well taken in regards to IRGC and the atrocities many of them have committed in order to preserve their despicable regime. They are the ones who have kept the regime in power with their brutality. To add salt to injury, thanks to Ahmadinejad, IRGC now is in full control of 2/3 of Iran's economy. 

IRGC has become the [brains and money] of the system while baseej has been transformed to goons, thugs and muscle of the regime. Just like organized crime!

-YT 

Craig

Lets not get all righteous here and on a rant again. We are talking about group or individuals who may not have been involved in anything that you are saying, specifically Mr. Ganji.

Stay focused and lets not broad brush. I was referring to YES the people who were detained back in 60's and Yes to those who were killed, without charges. You can never condemn rest of National Guard members along the ones who shot at students in front of Berkeley, or the ones who sent dogs, used batons, water canons and live bullets on equal right movement demonstrators back in 50's.

Analogy dude, analogy.

-YT 

PS ayhab

If teh National Guard in the US was detaining Americans without charge by the thousand and then torturing, raping and murdering them, and then executing survivors without public trial I don't think it would be inappropriate to question the character of anyone who voluntarily served in the National Guard.

Your Writing Only Serves the Islamic Republic

Using the same type of argument as was used in your article, it would be much easier and more effective for the Islamic Republic to hire people with no fame/name to damage the reputation of those who are somebody and their thoughts and ideas are very dangerous to the regime. Therefore one can use your silly argument agianst yourself and  accuse you of being an IRI agent.

By the way, congratulations, you are mentioned by Raja News!

//rajanews.com/detail.asp?id=34629

Ajab???

Mrs. Sayeh, where did you get the idea or the information on the fact that Akbar Ganji was a well known torturer for the current regime? Can anyone please tell me?

Ayhab

P/S Do you notice the difference between civil debate, as opposed to your usual slanderous remarks?

I suppose it was inevitable you had to throw that in there, right? I don't care if you agree with me on some things or not, ayhab. I'm not going to tolerate your abusive remarks anymore. You've made racist comments about me personally and my people in general, you've made unprovoked personal attacks on me, you've used degrading and childish name calling towards me, you've lied about me and you've even made veiled threats against me. And you constantly complain that I don't treat you with respect? That's not a "cultural" thing, guy. That's just plain weird. Do you see yourself as the thought police/enforcer on this website or something?

Match made (not) in heaven

Sayeh khanoum

Have you met mansours yet?  I think we should introduce you two. So while you hit "tisheh be risheh" of the green movement, he can bomb from above.

What a pair! What's going on in here? all of these bloggers are trying to kill the green movement these days!

Now that you know people regard your article as nonsense, it's time to bring in the others to blame it on NIAC like they always do. None of you shir-o-khorshid waving folks own up to your nonsense! 

capitan- ayhab jan

Your point on IRGC and the basijis made the highest number of sacrifices during the war is well taken, primarily because well, they comprised the bulk of the forces against the iraqies.

It should also be kept in mind, that those who are not real tortureres and murderers in Sepah or baseej, are certainly supportive and behind such an idea. after all, it was this ideology of destroying their common enemy and Taghootiess and protecting the Nezam that brought them together and united them in the first place.

Craig

You bring up a good point. Firstly, much like others I have been trying to find something, anything that proves or disproves the allegations regarding him being a torturer.

As to the point of him being member of IRGC, no doubt  that he was a member. One point needs be considered and that being, IRGC and Baseej made the most of sacrifice during Iran Iraq war, for which the ones who lost their lives or were injured , are rightful heroes. As it would be for any soldier in any army who defends the homeland[i.e yourself].

After the war powers to be changed the role of these group to more in lines with internal security. One point should be kept in mind, that not every single person who is member of IRGC is a murderer and a torturer. Calling  all of them such would be just like calling US National Guards murderers since some of them participated in putting down anti war demonstrators during 60's.

-YT 

P/S Do you notice the difference between civil debate, as opposed to your usual slanderous remarks?

follow up

Anybody who knows Islamic prisons, knows that a hunger strike of a prisoner doesn't panic anybody. He must have been an important person prior to it so that his hunger strike be heard outside to begin with, secondly to prompt an international support. There is a missing link here, from public recognition to international support. Can anybody shed some lights on that?

Dear Mehrban,

No harm done,

No one knows for sure what he was up to during his service with IRI, therefore either he or his ex colleagues have to come forward. I guess time will tell.

His hunger strike to the point of his death made him to be recognized globally as a symbol of resistant.

My suggestion to him at this stage is to work for unity, do not insist on flag issue, let people use other flag(s) as they wish along with green ( a simple test toward democracy). He must open up and be critical to early days of revolution and express the truth until the time he was arrested. He must be vocal, and reveal whatever he knows including his knowlege about massacre during Khomeini and he must condemn Khomeini as he is critical to Khamenei now.

Interesting

I joined Iranian.com some weeks ago. Prior to that, I was away from Iranian politics and Iranian news for some 15 years altogether... apart from news coming in local newspaper and radio and TV. Only the recent uprising of the new generation woke me up again.

This is to say I really don't know Mr. Ganji and until recently I didn't even heard of him! and frankly, I don't care who he is either.

But what is interesting to me is that Mr. Ganji is clearly a public figure, who calls upon people to come for gatherings, who sets some political guidelines which are supported by some and disputed by others, yet apparently nobody knows who he is!

Sayeh accused him of being a torturer and I wish she could provide some evidence to this fact because this 'public figure' apparently in completely unknown to the public to the extend that such accusation can not be laughed at off the bat. That's very strange.

As someone who was hibernating for many years what I am more curious about is the process of him becoming a public figure. If he is recognized by UN this should not be for what he stands for personally, but what he achieved as public figure toward his stands and the affect it had to the public.

This is the part I'm completely missing. What prompted people to know him and recognize him? Who lobbied in UN for his recognition and who financed it? And didn't they all happen during Bush administration? Weird. 

Dear Capt_Ayhab

Thank you for your kind post.  Interesting reads.

My intentions - for Mr Pirouzian

I know about Mr. Gangi from the time of him becoming a dissident.  I have been impressed with his story since that time.  I know he was part of the IR in the inteligence department (basically stuff of wiki or google).  I had never heard about him being a torturer.  I am sorry to have put you on the spot by asking you about his past.  Because of your work in the human rights area I thought you may know (even so, I should not have put you on the spot) but I realize that none of us seems to know the extent of Mr. Ganji's involvement prior to him becoming a dissident.  

As you have mentioned, he is a public figure and he should make these matters clear. The claim in this article was quite astonishing to me.  He is a high profile dissident of Iran whom I have respected for a while, if in fact he was a torturer my opinion of him regretfully will change in a significant way.  I would not care to punish him but he would not be the same person to me.  The ability to inflict torture on another person at any point of ones life goes well beyond my ability to reconsider someone's integrity.    That is all.  No hidden agenda on my part.  Mostly shock. I asked only one other person specifically because there was an implication in his post that he may know.  He later told me that he did not.  I have googled Ganji but most items are about his life as a dissident and mostly positive.  That is why this article was surprising, unbelievable and more than anything else disappointing.   I still don't know what the truth is, I hope it is not what is stated in this article.  

hi captain ayhab

thank you captain ayhab... thank you... (takes a bow)

hi captain ayhab

thank you captain ayhab... thank you... (takes a bow)

Ayhab

I don't know much about Ganji, but I have read a lot of Iranian bloggers who speculate about his background and what he was doing in the 1980s and early 1990s. I'm unable to find out what he wasup to duruing those years so I assume that is "unknown" and that he has never talked about it forthrightly.

//www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Akbar_Ganj...

Active in the Islamist anti-Shah forces at a "relatively early age", he served in the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps...

...during the Iran–Iraq War and joined the Ministry of Intelligence of the Islamic Republic.

In 1994-5 Ganji became disenchanted with the regime.

Wouln't you agree that an Islamist who begins a career in the IRGC and then works in the Ministry of Intelligence owes people an explanation ogf what he was doing during those 10+ years, before he became "disenfranchised"? I'm pretty sure people in the Islamic Republic's ministry of intelligence are not known for their human rights activities, right? Isn't it a fact that they are primarily responsible for VIOLATING the human rights of Iranians? If he's seen the light and left his past life behind him that's great, but it's hard to wash the blood off your hands when you won't even admit to what you did, let alone admit that what you did was morally wrong.

Ms. Mehrban

I found this article which might help in research.

Link: //word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/219

Excerpts:

Post Scriptum October 10, 2006: Iranian Journalist
Akbar Ganji will receive the Martin Ennals Award for Human Rights
Defenders, by the Martin Ennals Foundation, on Wednesday October 11,
2006, together with Arnold Tsunga from Zimbabwe. They will receive the
award from Mrs. Louise Arbor, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.
The Ceremony will take place at the ‘Batiment des Forces Motrices’ in
Geneva/Switzerland, within the International North South Media
Festival. A reception will follow immediately after the ceremony from
18.30-20.30h.

This site has been linked later (April 02, 2006) with the text IRANIAN PERSONALITIES ON THE ATOMIC CRISIS.

Post Scriptum March 18, 2006: Iranian Journalist
Akbar Ganji Released! Human Rights First welcomes the release on March
18 of jailed Iranian journalist Akbar Ganji. Mr. Ganji served a
six-year prison sentence in reprisal for publishing numerous articles
and a book that implicate government officials in the murder of Iranian
intellectuals and writers in the 1990s.

End Excerpts

Long article and worth reading.

-YT 

VAh VAh

To the reform dissers, if it wasn't for the reformists, we wouldn't have the after effects of this election! Reforming the IRI can be taking the islamic out of the republic in a non revolutionary way without bombs or outside meddling. Leave it to people at home to decide their fate.

As for this blog. How sad. People like this do nothing but cause division because they cannot set their own strong ideologies on the side. They break up demonstrations over the flag issue. Yell out slogans that keeps other people away. And generally break up the unity and create an atmosphere that keep Iranians out of Iran away from each other and away from political unity. I bet some of them are paid by the IRI because the only party that wins is the IRI.

As for changing. People change all the time, lovely. But in a just society that we are striving for in Iran, after apologies are made, some people will be investigated. If enough proof is available, they will have to answer in the court of law. We will forgive them once they serve their sentences and show remores. But right now, I will not persecute anyone just because some chick can't control herself at the University of Toronto.

Mehrban..........

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I do not know about Ganji's past and it's not right for me to speculate.

I know he was asked in various meetings and gatherings to talk about his past and be open about what was happening when he was member of IRI forces, either in Iran or in Turkey.

Now,he, like all public figures, should come forward and explain in details about his past and share his knowledge, including revealing who,what was happening during his involvement with IRI. These type of questions will pop up here and there and will never fade away.

p.s. I see here that you are asking similar question from others in this thread, I do not know your intention but as a suhhestion, you can do your own search and let us know your finding.     

Sayah jon: I think you owe

Sayah jon: I think you owe an apology to Mr. Akhavon and perhaps you can learn from him how to be more objective. I'm telling you as someone who appreciates your passion, however, sometimes misguided.

Mr. Pirouzian

Was Akbar Ganji at anytime a torturer?

Payam Akhavan's reply to Sayeh Hassan

A friend sent me the following reply sent to Sayeh. 

I was hoping Sayeh to post it, but since she did not, here it goes:

  From: Payam Akhavan, Dr.
> Sent: August 18, 2009 7:31 PM
> To: Sayeh Hassan
> Subject: RE: Pro-Reform, Anti-Iranian People Event at the University of Toronto-Shame on you Mr. Akhavan
>
> Dear friend,
>
> While I appreciate your strong emotions, you should think more carefully before you make accusations against based on misrepresentations of my comments without even having heard my lecture (by your own admission), and obviously without having done any research whatsoever about my views. Allow me to help you by directing you to the following statement I made to a recent demonstration against the protest violence: //solidaritywithiran.com/?p=123. You may also wish to familiarize yourself with the Iran Human Rights Documentation Centre (www.iranhrdc.org) that I co-founded some years ago with fellow Iranian activists.
>
> I will not dwell on my personal history except to say that it has not been enjoyable in the least to be an Iranian Baha'i and to lose several dear family members and friends in the torture chambers of the Islamic Republic. Nor will I tell you about what it is like to receive death threats and other attacks from IRI sympathizers and agents right here in Canada because of my activities. Your suggestion that I am an apologist for the regime is laughable and a disservice both to yourself and to the human rights cause. I am sure the Islamic Republic is very pleased that instead of creating a common front, the Diaspora activists are busy destroying each other's reputations.
>
> Shad bashid,
>
> Payam Akhavan
>

Mr. gitdoun

Allow me to congratulate you in level of maturity your comments has reached compared to some of your early threads and comments.

Nice work young man, you ought to be proud.

-YT