Siavash300

2050. Do you even bother to listen?

You really need to get a hold of yourself and read other peoples writings carefully before charging into making accusation and passing judgment.

1-     There is an ocean of difference between patriotism and nationalism on one hand and racism or hatred of others on the other. If I love my culture, my identity and my country and do any thing (reasonable and humane) to preserve it, that does NOT mean that I hate others or want to destroy them or even diminish their rights.

2-     I have gone trough all my own posting on this and other blogs again before asking this question. I would appreciate if you could let me know where in my whole postings I spoke about Aryan superiority over the other races or inferiority of Arabs or any other nationalities for that matter.

3-      The whole argument here was about preserving our culture identity and history as Iranians. That is no more and no less than any other nation do. I have spent a lot of time travelling around the world and also during the time I spent in UK for my studies I have seen the same attitude towards preserving their culture, identity and even national pride by other nations including British American, Arab nations to the south of Persian Gulf and many others.

But that does not mean that we or any other of these nations suffer from a self centric bigotry to regard ourselves as superior to others.

4-     You really need to go back and read your history again and find out why Kambujiye attacked Egypt. I am not here to defend any mistake made by our ancestors and yes may be they could have handled the situation better. But as you said yourself about Mohammad why not judge these events and people in the proportionality of the timeframe they happened or is it different rules for different people.

5-     No one is living in the past or is trying to be stock in history but in order to build our future we need to preserve, understand and learn from our past.

As British put it so elegantly “those who do not have a past will not have a future”.

6-      Please let me know where in my entire blog or in any other writings I have claimed that we Iranians are flawless. Have you ever read any of my articles at all?

You really need to get out of this notion of seeing the world as black or white. I never claimed that we are a perfect nation. In fact far from it, as the current mess that we are in is the self testament of the fact that we are NOT perfect at all and have a lot of improvements to do. Furthermore I believe that the notion “perfect” does not exist and in the instance when an individual or a nation start thinking of themselves as perfect that would the beginning of the end for them.

Neither I claimed that we have never invaded other nations or committed any unjustified act. However these things needs to be looked at in proportions and in that sense we have been victims of other peoples atrocities far more than what we inflicted it on others. Still I am not making excuses for that and in my book even one would one too many.

7-     For your information I am an advocate of self criticism and looking into our past as individuals and as a nation in order to identify our errors, honestly accept them and or learn lessons from them.

However I believe there is a very distinct line between self criticism on one hand and self bashing or even self hatred on the other.

8-     But most importantly the subject of this argument was about exercising our right by preserving our identity and defending our heritage by preserving the name Persian Gulf. As far as the point you made about the name of Persian Gulf in UN is concerned I already told you that these things are always done in stages.

No one with shred of intelligence will go directly to UN as the first step and asks for a 2500 years old name to be changed over night.

These attempts start with empty claims by publicity seeking heads of state and then they are fed into the media. Then by stripping the identity from the name and calling Persian Gulf “The Gulf” the stage is set. Then they move to maps produced by private companies like Google and offer them incentives to either remove the name from their maps all together or use other names. After the new trend becomes norm then they will have a case to go to UN and ask for the name change.

This claim has noting to do with racism bigotry or conspiracy theories but this is how the world of international politic works and the way these goals are achieved and if we do not stop it right at the beginning it will be almost impossible to do it at the final stage.

9-     Furthermore such bogus claim  by our dear neighbours to the south do not just limit the name of Persian Gulf but recently these countries are putting a claim on the three Iranian Islands (of Tonb-e Bozorg, tonb-e Koochack and Abumoosa) in the Persian Gulf as well.

Now! As an internationalist you tell me sir. Where will these (as you have put it) lame claims end and what would be the next thing they want to snatch from us, will it be the Islands of Gheshm, Kish and Khark, will it be the Hormoz Straight or will they not stop until claiming right up to Bandar Abbas.

10- Internationalism should  work both ways. At the moment no Iranians is allowed to own land or home or even shop and apartment in Emirate even when they pay cash for it the ownership documents has to be in the name of a local Arab, and we all know about the treatment that Iranian pilgrims get in Saudi Arabia during the Hajj pilgrimage every year.

As for the other countries claiming to advocate internationalism When was the last time that you saw UK or US government extended their welfare system to cover the hungry child in the streets of India, Syria, Ethiopia or Afghanistan for that matter (and I am not interested in Charity companies as they are totally different entities)?

How come the US governments insists that any one who thinks about plotting against their country has to be trialled and sentenced in US even if they have never been to US, as if their justice system is superior to the rest of the world, but when an American solder cold bloodedly murders many Afghan civilian women and children while they were sleeping in their bed, he will be flown out of the country over night and justice is denied to those families.

Where is the sense of internationalism in that?

We can talk about internationalism when every Iranian, Afghan, African or Iraqi can freely travel to Europe or US and benefit from all the social services, medical advancements and welfare system provided by those governments to their own people.

We can talk about internationalism when the poor suds on Camp Ashraf are given accommodation in other safe countries.

We can talk about internationalism when the same armies who rushed into war with one Saddam Husain over the Kuwaiti oil fields also hear the cry of Syrian people for help and crush Assad’s killing machine, without thinking about its effects on their own national interest or pocket or even economy and the next coming up election.

11- I do not really understand this notion of 21st century that you keep bringing on. As far as I can see the world is still the same dangerous unjust and hostile place that it was ten, fifteen or even twenty years ago.

The same governments and organisations who were plotting against us and were interfering in  our affair and meddling with our national interest are still hard at work in their old game and the same countries who want to divide our land by separating Azerbaijan, Kurdistan and the Islands of Persian Gulf are still at their old trick

Unless all the countries on this planet subscribe to the notion of internationalism (in actions and not just empty slogans) it remains just an empty notion and a symbol of pure hypocrisy.

12- Unlike what you think we Iranian do not hate non-Iranian people. Have you ever heard any one here to attack Pakistanis, Turks, Africans Chinese, Taajeeks or even Afghans for that matter? In fact on this very same site you see Iranian raising their voice against the policies of the IRI and to defend the rights of Afghan migrants in Iran.

13- You tell me why should we abandon our right to just please those who refused to recognize them in the first place.

Anyway I hope you put time to read my postings carefully and come up with rational answers living out any insults and accusations.

But then again that might be too much to ask for

Responses

I agree with Siavash about the reason for nationalism. Plus I do not call nationalist "bigot". That is giving them a bad name when I don't think they do anything bad. What is bad about wanting to preserve our nation. Or about having NoRuz at the tomb of Cyrus? It does not hurt anyone.

Regarding the other points I already explained them. I do not see any point in going back and forth repeating the same things. I will therefore say my bit one more time and be done: 

Regarding imperialism: It has been around since the dawn of humanity. From Greek; Persian; Romans; Chinese; Japanese; Germans; British; Americans; Russian; Arabs; Mongols ... You name it and they had imperialism. The degree is directly proportional to the military power of the nation. I see nothing different about us. 

Regarding racism: It has also been around since recorded history. Slavery was common in Greece all the way to British slaver traders; America and so on. Institutionalized racism has also been all over. In recent times British occupied India had laws separating British from Indian and then dividing up various races within India. Nations from South Africa to America had segregation. Japanese treated Koreans in WWII as a lower race. Germans had the whole "superior" race nonsense. 

Given all the above Iran was not even in the top part of either racism or imperialism. We might make an ethnic joke while Americans were whipping slaves to work. 

To wrap up: yes Iranians are human and hence some are racist. Many are not so no surprise. It is not at all odd that Iranians are no different than other people. Read history and find out how human beings behave. 

Wrong again Iran2050

"...Granted, IRI’s action in attacking Iranian nationalism has lot to do with the army of Iranian bigots growing day by day..." Iran2050

NO, it is the other way around. The Iranian nationalism is growing day by day as a result of foreign entity invasion for last 32 years. The end of the Islamic regime will cause Persianism golden age to prosper, Iranian intellectualism is under danger from a foreign religion and culture imposing its beliefs on a people who can't properly coexist with it.

During shah days, Iranians never celebrated Norooz at the tomb of Cyrus the Great,  but they do it these days.

Got the picture?

VPK, -         

VPK,

-          The core issue here is do we need to be a 21st century citizen of the world or someone stuck in history and views the world with values of 2500 years ago? That’s the core issue here. We can either progress or regress. If you want to progress, you would need to adopt the values of 21st century of internationalism, belief in equality, belief in humanity and in the human family. If you think that you need to take arms and invaded lands that at some period you think belong to your country (And its questionable whether your country even was at that time the same country you have today), and if you think its OK to hate an entire population of humans over something happened 1400 years ago that frankly may or may have not benefited your country, you cannot progress. You can’t be defined as a civilized and modern individual.

-          We have a huge problem in Iran in that we cannot distinguish between love of one’s country and nationalism. That’s the core problem. That’s why we have an army of bigots out there. We think that the more you think Iran is “flawless” the better Iranian you are. However, science, logic and history strongly prove otherwise. No one nation is flawless, no one people are perfect, no one country doesn’t have skeletons in it’s closet. VPK, we have invaded other countries just as much as others invaded us. We were an EMPIRE for god sake. What do you think the definition of an empire is? Isn’t that what those army of Iranian bigots want to revitalize?

-          Because we have skeletons in our closet just as much as others do, that is one (but not the only) big reason hat no one should hate other people because of historical events. No one should think that their culture is better, or their race is better, or it is OK to hate Arabs because of what happened 1400 years ago. I’m not even going to bring up the historical facts of what Iranian empire used to do Arabian territory prior to Islamic invasion (Go look up the nomani dynasty and how they were an occupied Arabic land by the Sassanid’s who used to defend Iran’s borders against other Arabs!), I will ask you this: do the Egyptians have the right to hate us Iranians for invading and essentially ending their independence (Up until the 20th century) during Kamboojiyah era? And don’t give the gibberish that we “liberated” them or “we weren’t as bad as some other invaders!!”. Invasion is invasion. According to your logic (not mine) how do the Egyptians should feel about us today?

-          I’m not saying Iranians should be hated because of what Kamboojiyah or Nader Shah or Mahmood Ghaznavi or Khosrow Parviz or IRI did and does nor I’m saying Arabs should be hated because of Qadesiyah. That’s just doesn’t make sense. At some point we have to enter the 21st century.

-          Granted, IRI’s action in attacking Iranian nationalism has lot to do with the army of Iranian bigots growing day by day. This army was created by Pahlavi ideology (Specially Reza Shah) but they have really grown the last 30 years. IRI is the biggest imperialist itself. What they’re preaching is not Islam in any way, shape or form. (That’s not saying Islam or any religion is perfect or should they be mixed with the state in ANY nation and that applies to any ideology that is categorized as religion, including Zoroastrianism). IRI is preaching a mixture of Iranian imperialism with Akhhond made up ideology (Even many Shite scholars don’t believe IRI shite brand is not true Shiteism). At the end of day though, we have to keep our head straight, because in order to build a prosperous, democratic, civilized, 21st century Iran, we CANNOT hold the same values of bigotry and intolerance any more.

change it

to Palestenian Gulf what's another gulf among omat islam any way.

Dear Areyo

Dear VPK & Siavash

Dear VPK 

Thank you for providing a rational, non-bias, fair, short and sharp answer to the questions asked by our friend.

In my respond to another friend Dr Mohandes I have also tried to provide the same answers but in more detail.

However in spite of persisting that I have no personal vendetta against Arabs or any other nation and no desire to repress their right and I am only interested in preserving our national rights, all I got from our fried was more abuse, more insult and more accusation.

Although my answer might a bit too long I would very much like to know your opinion on it.

 Dear Siavash 

Good choice of books

I have read them both. In fact if our friend is interested I can even provide the pdf version of second book for him (Doe Gharn Sokoot).

However I believe the problem here is not lack of knowledge but rather lack of will.

You see one can always awaken him who is in deepest sleep but can never awaken him who is pretending to be asleep.

Hence we can recommend and provide all the books and evidence in the world but as long as our friend does not want to know there is no use.

P.S- How come when it comes to our history and our Kings and Commanders, our friend does not hesitate to use 21st century values to dismisses all of the heroes of our history as tyrants and murderers, (though even by this same standards still many of them stand out as grate humanitarian heroes), but when it comes to Mohammad and his crimes or personal conducts we are not allowed to use the same values.

Is it only me or does any body else sense the stink of hypocrisy here

Regarding the points

Before I go on it would be nice if the points were separated in bullets and not mixed up in one long paragraph. But I will just respond to a few of them:

• Name "Persian Gulf". This is the historical. Pan Arab Nasser tried to change it. BBC and others picked it up and tried to sow division in the region and put Iranians and Arabs at each other.
• Iranians don't hate anything non-Iranian. Some Iranians love the West; others fear it. Some love Arabs; others don't. If they hated Arabs they would not name their kids Arab names. But yes some do hate Arabs. The reason is a response to invasion; occupation and slavery of Iranian people. I personally do not blame anyone today for that. I only hold people responsible for personal acts. There are more recent experiences like the war with Iraq. When there is a war people get to dislike each other. Just watch a world war II movie and see what Americans say about Germans or Japanese. It is not good but it happens all the time. It is a human problem not an Iranian.
• Mohammad did things which got recorded by historians. He gets judged the same way as other historical figures. From Jesus to Alexander all are discussed and judged. Mohammad is no different from them. For example some say Alexander was a butcher; others say "Great" yet others say both. The problem is that Muslims want Mohammad to be above reproach. When someone calls Alexander a butcher nobody says they are racist against Macedonians. But when someone calls Mohammad a name they say it is racism. I don't buy this one bit. It is a ploy to silence people.

iran2050 mistake

 "I think it was Reza Shah who started this ideology of hate towards any non Farsi element in Iran and outside of it" Iran2050

NO it was not Reza shah the Great, it was Ghadeseyeh battle. It was Arab invasion in Iran. First military then culturally. Military 1400 years and 32 years ago. Culturally 32 years ago. Read Khalid ibn Walid and Sad ibn Vagas stories. Read more of Iran's history. you may start reading these 2 books.

A. Tareekh Tabri

B. 2 centuries silence. (Do Ghan Sokot), written by Dr. Abdulhossaine Zarin Kob.

VPK, My points are as

VPK,
My points are as follows:

The Persian Gulf name has been officially accepted by the U.N, and I personally believe it should be named the Persian Gulf because historically it has been, and that’s all it matters to me. We have to realize that we live in the 21st century and we have to deal with situations like this in a civilized and frankly, mature, fashion.
That being said, I believe that our society suffers greatly from a social illness called “bigotry”. I believe that many Iranians think they Iran is the center of universe, and that’s wrong and destructive, and believe that the “Aryan” race is superior to others, and that’s wrong and destructive, and they live in the history, and that’s wrong and destructive, and they believe Iranians are incapable of making mistakes and that we are always “victims” of others, and that’s wrong and destructive. I believe we have attacked and invaded other nations just as much as others have invaded us, and in the past 30 years, although IRI hasn’t directly invaded other countries, but it has done more damage in other fashion by supporting terrorist groups in all corners around the world and meddling negatively in the matters of many nations around it and by exporting its fundamentalist ideology throughout the world, specially Arabic nations. . I think we don’t even realize at time that we insult and belittle other nations and races because bigotry has been ingrained in the mindset of many of us so deeply, and that one particularly is very wrong and very destructive.
I don’t believe Arabs hate Iranians as much as Iranians hate Arabs, unlike what those Iranians think. And I think “hating” someone for their race and background in the 21st century , is wrong, shameful, embarrassing and will not make us many friends around the world. I think it was Reza Shah who started this ideology of hate towards any non Farsi element in Iran and outside of it. I believe his ideology was very similar to Nazism. He left out the negative elements in the Iranian culture out in his propaganda, just like Hitler did with Germany, and as result, people who subscribe to his ideology like aryo barzan, will call anyone who dares to speak about them (and to speak about them because acknowledging a problem and discussing it is the first step towards resolving it), as “non Iranian Emirati and Islamo Fascist”. I mean if that’s not a sick mind, I don’t know what is! He calls me , who have always been an advocate of separation between state and religion, as “Islamo”!!!
The relations between what I’m saying to the Persian Gulf issue is that we have used this issue, yet again, as a reason to bash and belittle others. Yet again, we can’t show tolerance towards others. Yet again we use insults against other nations. And that’s what I’m upset about.
I believe all humans are equal, and scientifically and morally, there are no such things as better race or better culture. Culture is a subjective matter. I think Iran has beautiful culture, but I think others do as well. I think Farsi is a great language, but other languages are the equally great. I think we have done terrible things in the past, but so did Arabs, Turks, Israelis, Americans, Chinese, Russians and others. I think Iran has great potential to be a great nation, but so does every other country around the world.
…and unlike what people like aryo barzan thinks who said that Mohammad was a pedophile using 21st century values, I think you cant find any culture around the world in ancient times that didn’t have elements of injustice, or adultery, or tyranny, or oppression, in it. To single out one culture is a form of “bigotry”.
I think we can either be a civilized 21st century nation or we don’t. We make that decision.

What's your argument

2050 what are your arguments and what is your point? Please state your best arguments for us. 

VPK and aryo barzan,  

VPK and aryo barzan,

As I said before, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You thought that using your old school Iranian “laat baazi” mentality (which is prevalent in the way you conduct dialogue and also the way you view politics and international relations), you can silence me using insults. Now you learn that you can’t get away with that.

As far as your absurd claim that I’m a Sunni radical!!!!, that yet again and again and again, shows your lack of logic, common sense, empirical thinking and most noticeably, civility, because when you resort to insults and instead of answering one’s argument in a civilized fashion, you resort to attack who that person is, that also shows laat tendencies and behavior.

You are the emperor of China , congratulations! Now, metaphorically speaking, maybe some revolutionaries (in your instance people who know what “logic”, “common sense” and “empirical thinking” are) can come and overthrow you, by that, I mean people like us take our country back from the army of bigots, racists and intolerant people like you out there.

A few words

• Dear Rastin: You are right and of course it is not up to an internet poll. The real name will always be Persian Gulf. Besides internet polls are totally inaccurate. This is just some trick to get hits on a page by Google.  
• Dear Areyo Barzan: You absolutely right 2050 has made tons of accusations and all forms of insults to me and never proven them. He or she hurls charges of racism with no basis. Despises anything that is Iranian or even Shia! Then wants us to apologize for imaginary offenses. In my opinion this person is a Sunni Islamic radical; most likely non Iranian and hates anything Iranian. Really if 2050 is Iranian then I am the emperor of China! 

Check & Mate :-)))))))

Thanks for proving me right again. Just as I expected and like colck work.

People only resort to insult and accusations when they run out of logic and are enable to continue (or in your case engage in) debate or provide a logicala answer to a set of logical questions.

Furthermore it is very hard for me to belive that a person who hates averytihng about Iranians including their culture, their history, their language and even their religion have any shred of Iranianness left in his body (if he/she ever had any in the first place)

As I stated before 

Naravad Mikhe Ahanin dar sang

Now if you want to dig yourself deper in the hole you created for yourself by resorting to more faul mouth language and insults then be my guest

As far as I am concerned this tred is exhusted to the limit

I am out of here

Heh Heh Heh Heh ........... :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 

P.S However,I was expecting a prompt retional answer from DR Mohandes.

I wasn't going

When you make lame claims

When you make lame claims that someone who is opposing your views is “not an Iranian” as a mean to counter his argument shows the bankrupt nature of your own argument and lack of ability to conduct civility and empirical thinking. That’s all you really can say about that.

And as far as always playing the victim role and talking about foreign occupation where as you don’t talk about your own country’s occupation for other countries (As I clearly mentioned below, and as Pahlavi and even IRI ideologues left this part of our history out deliberately so the “we our always the victim” mentality that holds nations back but strives people for a “leader”, remains amongst us) and continuing insults and bashings, are also signs of lack of objectivity and empirical thinking.

But again, what do we expect of close to 80 years of intense indoctrination of our people during Pahlavi and IRI reigns? We shouldn’t expect much. Those ideologues have created an entire army of Iranian bigots and non objectives. The root case is each of them preached extremism in their own way. Pahlavi preached nationalist extremism and IRI shite (not Islamic, because shiteism has little to do more with Islam, more with Zoroastrianism frankly) and nationalist extremism. Ahamdi Nejhad himself is an extreme nationalist unfortunately similar to that army of bigots and thugs we have out there.

So sad for Iran.

Dear Dr Mohandes

First of all I would like to thank you for your concern and your response to my posting.

I must say that to some degree I agree with you that many of us Iranian including yours truly, may from time to time come across as suspicious or as you put it having a chip over our shoulders.

However I think this issue has more of a historical root rather than a genetic or even cultural one.

Please let me elaborate. All during our 3000 years of history we have been victims of foreign aggressors invading our country looting our assets burning our cities raping our woman and drawing lines of division along ethic and regional fault  lines in our country and breaking up our land.

From Babylonians to Alexander, from Romans to Greeks, from Arabs invaders of Ghadesyyeh to Mongols and Teymoor and not to mention the new colonial powers like British, French and Russians the same trend have continued.

Just by looking at events like Treaties of Torkmanchay and Golestaan or Allied invasion of our country during WW2 and most recently the Iraq war and the support that Saddam got from the West and other Arab countries, any fair person could see some of the reason behind such mindset and this deep suspicion towards the rest of the world. In a way we are not so different to any other nation on this matter.

As a person who lives in US you should also be able to confirm that America after 9/11 is a totally different society compared to the one before it.

I bet you that now a days they are more suspicious less open and even more patriotic. As I have read a report stating that right after 9/11 the sale of American flag boosted in US and today one can see more flags on the top of buildings and their door steps than ever.

However as I said before the subject of this article was something else and hence I am going to take you on your word by trusting you and putting the same questions that I asked our friend to you.

Please be honest in answering these questions and more importantly in case you see any hint of racism in these questions please  do not hesitate to let me now as I am always open to accepting my errors and improve myself.

1-      Do you think that the name of geographical landmarks like mountains, seas oceans and Islands have and should have some historical bearing behind them which could and should reflect the history of people and nations behind these places and their contributions or sacrifices, or do you believe that these are just arbitrary names without any historical bearing and could be changed one the fly by rulers seeking cheap publicity, people seeking to pump up their own eager or even companies (in this case Google) seeking to boost their profit.

2-      In case you think that these name do not have any historical bearing and could be changed on the fly then should not the same rule or rather lack of it apply all across the board and hence should not we be allowed to asked for the name of Gulf of Amman to be changed to Gulf of Iran or at least to its original name of Tetis Sea. How about changing the name of Indian Ocean or English Channel or for that matter Gulf of Mexico.

3-      Do you think that when a country signs a treaty agreement (like the one Emirate signed and accepted Iranian ownership of the tree Islands in1961) then they have an obligation to honour it for ever or do you think that they can change their mind on the go and waver all their obligation when ever they feel like it, when the rulers of these nation seek cheap publicity..

4-      In case you think that they can change their mind every day then shouldn’t the same rule apply all over the board and hence we should also be able to change our mind and ask for Bahrain, Azerbaijan and Caucuses to be returned to the motherland. Similarly shouldn’t UK evacuate Falkland Islands and return it to Argentina or shouldn’t US hand Hawaii over to a closer country

5-      Do you think as the country that occupies the whole northern coast of Persian Gulf we actually have some authority and rights there or at least a partial ownership of that body of water and the oil under the seabed or do you think that this is an international body of water with us having no right of ownership over any part of it.

6-      In case you think we have no right over the Persian Gulf at all in spite of having the longest coast line and not to mention our historical ties, then why should the smaller countries to the south with much less coast line and nor history have any ownership.

7-      Why is it that these very same countries who boast about internationalism do not even allow Iranians to own a land a house or even an apartment in Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar or any other state to the south of Persian Gulf in spite of the fact that most of the asset there belong to Iranians, and how come a country like Saudi treats Iranian pilgrims in such aggressive and racist way every year.

8-      Do you regard guarding ones national identity and restoring our heritage as an act of patriotism and cultural enhancement or do you regard it as a fascist act.

9-      Why should there be one set of rule for us and another for the rest of the world and how come when other countries like US wage war all over the world to protect their national interest it is called patriotism but when we are defending ours interest in our region suddenly we are racist ultra-nationalist racist or even fascist

If you have a look at my previous blog inputs you can see that I have asked these very same questions several times from our friend but instead of any logical answer all I got was insults and accusations.

As I told you before we have no intention to deprive other nations of their right or to steal and occupy their land and as history is our witness we are always ready to extend a hand of friendship towards those nation who are willing to deal with us fairly openly and on a level ground. Furthermore we have never in our history started a war as aggressors and have always been the ones under attack and had to raise and defend our self and national interest.

But make no mistake when I say any one ruler or nation who tries to steal our land, deny our identity or diminish our right will get a hard smack in the mouth and if that is regarded as racism then so be it.

Be aware of none-Iranian posing as Iranian

Dear Friends,

This blog is about PERSIAN GULF name and has nothing to do with racism, ethnicity, Hitler and Nazis Germany. We are Iranian and we should protect our cultural, national identity, heritage, and national interests. That has nothing to do with racism.

Over the years, I have seen many people on You Tub that pretend to be Iranian and finally I found out they were Arabs. For example, someone was saying AhamadiNegad should be president of the world. One Iranian naively engaged in coversation deeply with that guy. The guy was using profane language against Iranian guy. Curiously, I cliked on the name of that person and suddenly I saw the channel he belong to. The screen was full of turbans and arabic words. I informed the Iranian guy that the person was not Iranian. Most likey from southern Lebanon, or Gaza or some arab terrorist group.

Another incident was here on I.C. There was a guy who was using sharp language against Pahlavi's family. His user name was Sargood Piruz.  I was trying to help him to see the beauty of our country under shah's smart leadership for over 2 months. Finally, one lady whom I think her user name was "Souri" informed me that the guy was Pakistani. She said that he couldn't even speak farsi. I was shocked I spent 2 months to educate the person. During 2 months I could feel something is not quite right,but it didn't come across my mind that he was not Iranian.

Now, there are many people who lives in border of Turkey and they speak "Istanbolian Turkish" which is different from Iranian turkish. Are they turkish in sense of Turkey country? Of course, NOT 

There are many people who lives in border of Pakistan and they speak Ordo similar to what Pakistani people speak. Are they Pakistanis? Of course, NOT

There are many people who lives in border of Iraq. They speak Arabic similar to what Iraqi people are speaking. Are they Arabs? of course, NOT.

We are all Iranians even though some of us speak next door country language because of proximity. It is our duty to preserve our heritage, culture and national interests. By the way, VPK was really rational and truely patriatic person. I learned a lot from him. I persoanlly missed him on this site.

Regards,

Siavash 

How i hate to see you guys NOT getting along:(

Dear aryo barzan

That is nice to know and thank you for sharing that with me and you can trust me! I also share your concern and disdain with regards to some individuals that may have a tendency to mix things up and disregard the main issue. The issue of preserveing our trerretorial integrity and defending our borders is an item that is on our minds as a collective majority and no one can deny that.

You know, As i said previously, I do agree with Iran2050 that as a general rule of thumb we iranians may demonstrate certain behaviors that may come across as racism or some kinda bigotry, But that should not be interpretted in a wrong way. I have to admit that many of us DO come across as having a chip on our shoulders and it really makes me wonder how others view us and think about us. I lived in the states for 25 years and even though i changed rather quickly and adapted successfully, i could not help noticing that amongs my own best friends. I guess, The problem really is such a sentiment has been overexpressed and played itself over and over in various venues and communities that it eventually became known as a standard trait for iranians...sadly.

To say that we have the right to defend our rights and respond swiftly and violenty to any country who chooses to invade us is one thing, But what we also need to keep in mind is that , the administration that we are dealing with is not necessarily a peace loving one and has adopted some aggressive policies by issuing wrongful convictions and demanding applogies when no appology is due. We are in a sense being victimized by their strategies and policies they choose to pursue. So you have to see the position some iranian's abroad or inside iran take through those lenses.

Iran2050

You are making me Blush my friend. I am simply here to read and learn and by god i have bee learning by reading so many comments based on so many various POV's. I agree with you in general that some of us put too much emphasis on this sense of Superiority that we feel we have. and that is wrong.

I remeber that episode of Jon stewart's show, and i think it was featured in here too, but i took it with stride and in the context it was presented. Of course i would not go as far as calling such approaches thuggish or vile or even Nazi like, and we should always keep in mind the backdrop against which this comes about, and go from there.

I do voice my concerns and some thoughts i may have every now and then and i hope that we could all get our messages across without necessarily thinking of one another in certain harsh terms...

Dear Dr Mohandes

you see?

exactly my point.

Again our friend failed to provide any answer to my questions and instead resorted to more insults and accusations and as if that was not enough this time he went much further and insulted all Iranians by calling them rasict and fachist.

Well my friend, If this (self Bashing and insulting ones own nation and identity) is what they call internationalism then I want NO part of it

Thank you

Dr Mohandes,   Thanks

Dr Mohandes,

Thanks for your support and your well balanced logic brings hope in me that there some objective Iranians still out there!

However don’t mind this aryo barzan or VPK guys! Their uncivilized behavior, their hate, their thuggish behavior, their intolerance and their astonishing lack of objectivity and empirical thinking are only typical of people with their point of views. The sad thing for them and the great thing for me is that their behavior only, and only, validates and proofs my point!!

Their inability to take emotions out of their beliefs and sticking to some outdated conspiracy theorism ideas and racist anti Arab and pretty much anti anything non farsi and subscribing to Nazi like ideology are only and again only typical. Just listen to his ultra nationalism nonsense. I mean is there a place in the civilized 21st century world for this kind of frankly dangerous rhetoric? This is so embarrassing for Iran for people to see how racist our nation has become.

I remember the Jon Stewart show sending a correspondent to Iran during the 2009 election (his last name is Jones I believe) and when he came back from Iran and Jon asked him how Iran was the first thing that came out of his mouth was that “Iranians are so racist”!!! I mean this twisted indeed people like aryo bazan don’t have a clue (Because they have been brainwashed so much) how much damage their causing to Iran and to its future and to its reputation and to its cause for a future democratic and civilized Iran!! These people are clueless! It’s so pathetic and so sad and again, very dangerous!

I’m guessing Jones has interviewed VPK and aryo barzan while he was there!!!!

One thing I’m going to ask you DrMohandes is to please speak up more and more. We need more Iranians like you who know what “logic” is to speak up and take our country back from the intolerant bigots, whether they are Reza Shah, Shah, Khomeini or Khamenei or aryo or others!!!

Thanks again.

Dear Dr. Mohandes

Thank for the response and good advice I will try to keep in in mind for future.

I actually live in the city of Mashhad, area of Kohsangi.(that is as far as I can give away here before jepordising my safity).

I have lived in Iran for all my life (except a short period that I spent in UK for my studies). 

As I told before I am always open to listen to other people’s views and concerns.

But preserving our national interest and integrity of our borders is of paramount importance to me.

When our fiend here rejects independent statistics, then what am I supposed to think.

I am not from a privileged background. But I know for a fact that the statistic of improving the literacy rate up to 45% is a fact as I was there and I saw it and felt.

I am not claiming the Pahlavi’s were perfect but they have done many services to this country for which I am grateful.

However the main subject of this discussion was the attempt of Arab Fraudsters and their financially motivated Western supporters to change the name of Persian Gulf and put a claim on the three Iranian Islands and I absolutely refuse to accept that.

Especially when UK is defying all international laws by illigaly holding to Falkland Islands half way around the world  and no one dares to raise a voice but on the other hand the very same people and organisations are trying to steal our Island and erase us from history in the name of internatinalism and airness..

It is such hypocrisy that make my blood to boil and the naivety of our fellow Iranians who do not see trough this conspiracy and boast about internationalism when none of these countries have any respect of  or recognition the term when it gepordises their interest. .

This dispute has noting to do with racism ultra-nationalism or as our fried put it Fascism. This is about defending our right our identity and integrity of our borders.

Furthermore our friend repeatedly failed to answer my question about the oil in Persian Gulf or changing the name of Gulf of Amman to Gulf of Iran and why Google does not allow such petition.

Furthermore I do not necessarily believe that not knowing the facts is a bad thing. None of us was born knowing everything. But we learn by keeping an open mind and listening to those who might have more experience and might have seen a few more events or read a few more lines than us.

But when it come to refusing to accept the facts point blank and not wanting to know, then the name of the game will change especially when the other party start insulting you by calling you a  racist, fascist or ultra- nationalist.

As I stated before we Iranians have no war with anybody and no desire to occupy other people’s land and a brief look over our history shows that very well.

But if any country however big or small tries to invade our territory and undermined out interest, culture or integrity of our borders we have always responded with deadly force.

And that is a promise

AB Jan

I think that you and siavash are jumping the gun and making irrational conclusions.

I am not here to pick sides and make any judgments as to whoes claim is more valid, but what i know is that no one should accuse those who have a different view of history than our own, as being foreigners or deliberately alienate them or declare their lack of knowledge of our culture or traditions. For as long as there has been life on this planet, Histrical events have been interpretted in various lights and depending on the sources an individual consulted with and the perception they developed on the basis of those investigations.

It is obvious that You and iran2050 are coming from rather diverse and totally different background and there is no use bickering over this. I happen to agree with his views, broadly speaking. I am sure he has read books and reports just as you have, albeit different ones and consequently has come up with a different perspective.

Farnkly it sends shivers down my spine when i see you or our dear friend VPK confronting this individual and handing down the verdict that he "does not have a shred of iranianness left in him"...

BTW...I have a feeling we may be neighbors. Do you live in teyloon or shahrestoon?:)

Dear Siavash

I believe you are banging your head against a brick wall.

This is a guy full of hate for everything Iranian in fact I doubt him even to have any Iranian identity bone left in his whole being..

The fact that he calls the revival of Persian Culture and Iranian identity by Reza Shah a “Cultural Genocide” (and I do not know which culture he is talking about. Arab Invaders of Ghadedyeh?) is a self testament to his twisted mindset. so it is natural for him ro reject credible statistical results when it goes against his belief. 

To be honest with you, having enemies like him could only serve as a credit to Reza Shah and Pahlavi family

This guy obviously does not know anything about our culture, history and heritage as I bet that he has not even opened a book  or read and independent report in his whole life, but may be even more importantly he does not want to know about it either. He is much happier to be a part of Iraq or Imamate. I think he needs to change his name to Imarate-2050 as it is more suitable to his mindset.

The fact that he used the name (Mohammarah) that Saddam’s occupying invaders used for Khoram-Shahr while occupying it and slaughtering all residents, as the legitimate name for this city, is a self testament of who he is and how much he knows about this grate country its culture and its people.

We can always inform those who do not know but there is no hope for those who do NOT want to know and that is why I believe continuing with this conversation is a waist of time.

As I said before

NARAVAD MIKH-E AHANIN DAR SANG

Siavash3000,   Those

Siavash3000,

Those numbers are wrong. I know they are wrong because I got that number from multiple reliable sources. In addition to that, it is what I saw and witnessed growing up during the revolution and it was what makes sense.

My nationality is Iranian, however, it is totally understandable since you have been living in a bubble with your other close minded, non-objective and bigot Iranian friends, you would consider Iranians like myself who are objective as “Biganeh” and a “foreigner”….as if we are from a different planet. That’s understandable.

Payandeh baad Iran.

Aryo barzan,   As I

Aryo barzan,

As I said before, using personal attacks instead of conducting a civilized dialogue is a hallmark of folks like you. What are you going to call me next? That’s I’m a spy, that I’m an agent, whats next? Calling me an “Arab” who is posing as an Iranian is not only childish and comical but very sad and shows your lack of character.

That being said, that doesn’t change the fact and doesn’t answer what I wrote. I brought up the issue of Reza Shah committing cultural genocide and physical oppression against multiple segments of the Iranian population. Objective and open minded Iranians are well aware of this.

Our Padeshah and illiteracy rate

 "...the illiteracy rate was 70% (That shows how much Reza Shah and his son did for Iran!) at the time of the revolution. Illiterate people, although I’m sure are as nice as anyone else and have all the rights as everyone else, don’t always make the right political decisions" Iran2050

NO, the illiteracy rate was 45% at the time of revolution, NOT 70%. This rate was very comparable to the similar countries such as Syria and Egypt at that time.  The illiteracy rate was about 85% back in late 50's. It was dropped from 85% to 45% as a result of educational troops (Sepah e danesh) and shah's white revolution. The graduate high school students were sent to small viliages and remote areas to educated people. 

    The ratio of rural to urban was 75% in urban versus rural. means 75% of our population were living in villiages and small towns,only 25% were living in the city. According to Dr. Maziyar Behrooz this ratio has been changed recently to 40% in rural and 60% in urbans. I personally remember those numbers becacuse I was doing some socialogical research in our villiages back in 70's when I was university student.  According to Dr.Shoja e din Shafa, the literacy rate at the turn of century, when Reza Shah the Great took power, was around 1%. All progress was a result of diligent effort of Reza shah the Great, shah and their administrations.

I don't know your nationality sir, but we all Iranians are on the same page as far as name of PERSIAN GULF concerned.

Thanks Dr. Ala, Areyo Barzan for their Great contibutions to this blog.

Payanedeh IRAN.

Oh My God!!!

Now it all make sence

You actualy are an Arab and that is the reason behinde your hatered towards Iran and everything that is Persian. 

just remember when Saddam forces invaded Khoramshar what they did  to the women and how many men (even and especially those who greeted his army with open arms)they murdered. They killed all the men and raped women and girls to death, and in the end it was Persian patriots like me who volontiered from all over the country to fight practicaly empty handed while he was being suported financialy and logictically by Saudi AribiaEmarat, US UK and many other countries, and finaly trought him along with his rapist army out of Iran

As I told you before if you do not regard yourself as an Iranian and have no regards for Iranian heritage and culture then ofcourse you should be mad with Reza Shah.

So why not being honest with youself. You actualy want the name of Persian Gulf to be changed and have no problem with handingover our three Islands to Emarate.

All that contradictory BS on UN convention naming of Persian Gulf was was just a decoy.

Well in that case please be honest mate.  As a non Iranian Arab it is only right for you to believe in this way. But unfortunatly for yourules are rules and rest assure that real Iranians like me defent their rights their interest and their heritage and you can call it what ever you want

you see the difference between us is that I get my knowledge by reading books and no book is of limit even and especially the ones I am not in agreement with the auther.

but you get your info from selective gosip beliving in what suits you mind set as undisbuted fact while disregarding the rest and resorting to insult and acusation on the source 

Cyrus’ tomb and the

Cyrus’ tomb and the Persian Gulf naming convention are two different things, as far as I’m concerned, their both resolved. The first one belongs to the Iranian heritage, whether Cyrus was a good guy or not, his tomb belongs to Iranian heritage and it should be preserved. The Persian Gulf naming convention is NOT the same, however, that has been settled also through U.N. The problem is that’s not enough for many Iranians, cause they want to use any opportunity they get to insult and belittle our Arab brothers and sisters. You want to be mad at Jamaal Abdul Nasser, go ahead, knock yourself out, but why do you BELITTLE and INSULT an entire nation of people? WHY?

Your lack of knowledge of history is very typical among people with your point of view. Let me school you on something. When Reza Shah the Fascist took over our beautiful nation, he created this bigot and racist ideology of “Aryanism” to justify his rule. He connected his rule to the Sassanid dynasty in order to gain legitimacy. Then he went to Khuzestan and started changing the names of some of the villages which had historically Arabic names (Like Mohammarah) into, I guess, “Aryan/Farsi” names (Khoramshahr)…and he forced many Arabs to abandon their traditional dress (the keyword here is FORCED) and he instituted a Nazi-like policy of “Farsification” of not only Khuzestan but many Southern provinces (Also Baluchistan and Kurdistan). Now tell me genius, what’s wrong with this picture? Let me ask you this question:

-          Who on earth gave the right to him to conduct such policies?

-          Is it morally/legally OK what he did? Is it OK for him to oppress an entire segment of Iranian citizens the way he did?

-          Is it OK for him to change the entire identity of people/area according to his will?

-          Did this anti Arab (And frankly anti minority) policies start before or after Jamaal Abdul Nasser? Have you ever thought that maybe (And he said so) Jamaal was upset because of what Pahlavis where doing to Arabs in Iran???? Have you ever thought about that? Now certainly that doesn’t give him the right to change the name of internationally recognized body of water, but, have you ever thought about that??????????????

Don’t answer this questions to me, answer them to yourself.

Well, Well, well!!!

You just couldn’t keep away ay?

You see my friend? This is always the trend.

When the other side resorts to insults and baseless accusations or making uneducated claims, it would be then that I know I have won the argument and won it big time. It works like a charm.

With regards to illogical, uncivilised and thuggish behaviour or use of abusive language I will leave the judgment to the readers of this blog. It is for them to say who resorted to insult name calling and accusation from the very first input.

Furthermore with regards to the disaster of 1979 I will again erg you to go and educate yourself by reading a few books.

Here are a few good titles. If you want I will even send you the pdf version of what I have

• Memoirs of General Hauzer.
• Crisis by Hamilton Jordan
• Akharin Talaashhaa dar Akharin Rooz haa by Ibrahim Yazdi
• Memoirs of Hosein Ali montazeri
• Great war for civilisations by Robbert Fisk
• Istadeh Bar Armaan by Abul hassan Banisadr
• Inverview with history By Oriana Falachi
• Answer to history by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi

The fact of the matter is that the disaster of 1979 was the biggest cock-up of our history in any term and level.

Now the fact of matter is that most of ordinary Iranians have already accepted this and learn from their error. It is only a hot-headed stubborn minority who are still trying to evade their responsibility and blame others for their own irresponsible cock up just because they do not have the courage to face the fact.

As far as where the people inside Iran and especially our young generation stand, I can assure that they defend their rights in Persian Gulf and treasure their heritage, being the name of Persian Gulf or their historical sites and heroes like Cyrus the Grate or other aspects of Persian culture and their national identity or national interest more than ever.

If anything the eight years war with Iraq showed the world that Iran is not a country that you can mess with.

Furthermore unlike you I am living in Iran and I know the typical Iranian mentality much better than you can imagine. In case you are actually interested to know I can assure you that the vast majority of People inside Iran, especially our young think like me and that is a fact. Now if you do not like it then I guess that is though.

You can deny the reality all you want but that will not change the nature of that reality.

Although we as a nation have no war with any one and no wish to abuse the rights of others and though we are always ready to extend a hand of friendship towards the nations and governments who are willing to deal with us fairly and cooperate with us openly and honestly, but I assure you that for those who want to abuse and disregard our rights, steal our heritage or deny our identity they would get a hard smack on the mouth.

Now mate! I know that none of these make any difference to you as I have dealt with your like before and understand that you simply do not want to know.

Hence as I said before one can always awaken him who is in deepest sleep but can never awaken him who is pretending to be asleep.

So my friend, feel free to launch another set of insults accusations and baseless claims. It will make no difference to me as I have heard it all before

As I told you before

NARAVAD MIKH-E AHANIN DAR SANG