Love and Marriage


by TheMrs

I've been following California's Proposition 8 from the sidelines. I'm so confused about the whole thing.
I'm not Christian. I know Jesus loves me, I thank him for that and I'm hoping that if all the mumbo jumbo ends up being real, I can just confess my sins, repent and get on with life.
But personally, I could never follow any doctrine that wants to regulate what kind of harmless pleasure I want to get from my own body. I don't think it's anyone's business who my partner in crime(s) is/are going to be. So I'm not here to preach and I'm no prude. But I can't separate marriage from religion either because so far, they're intertwined.
There's no doubt that Christianity bans homosexuality. Even though churches are propping up here and there with their own interpretations of the bible but Scripture is clear:
Leviticus: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination.
Leviticus: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
I don't understand people like Rev. Ed Bacon. This dude has gone on the record saying that he is embarrassed that the Christian religion is "unfortunately…in large part responsible for this act of bigotry". He's talking about support for Prop 8. What kind of a reverend is he? Has he read the bible recently? He can call it bigotry but from a religious view, the church is right and this charlatan Mollah is blasphemous and heretical! Why hasn't he been excommunicated? It's bizarre to see a defender of the faith turn against it. Is this guy some kind of Henry VIII, Fideit Defensor unilaterally going against religious logic in the aim of another reformation? He has to be gay.
It's like people who look to the Pope for a blessing on abortion rights. The Pope has a job to do on earth, and his God tells him abortion is a sin. We have to agree with his version of his religion. But I'm pro choice, so I say, Fuck the Pope. He can interpret his religion, I'll do what I think is right, I don't even WANT his support.
If we accept (we absolutely have to because of the historical evidence we have) that marriage has mostly been religiously sanctified first and then legally ratified, then one has to wonder why gays want to be married. After all, the same religion which has been an inherent and inseparable part of Western civilization's definition of marriage and its raison d'être is not very nice to them.
It is very logical and modern to say that any two people who want to be joined in holy matrimony…I mean just regular matrimony, should have the right to do so. And they should be given the same legal or social advantages (and god damn it, the same disadvantages) that marriage brings. I understand this and I agree.
But why would gays want to be part of a tradition that loses 50% of its club members anyway? 50% of marriages end up in divorce and many of the couples stuck in the "successful" marriages are there because they can't figure a way out. It boggles the mind. My only explanation is that gays want to hold themselves to the exact same low standards straight couples do! I suppose that's natural human behavior. Or perhaps I'm holding them to a higher standard, expecting them to be better than me.
On top of this you have to listen to the voice of the people. The majority of voters just don't want same sex marriages to be recognized. This is a hard pill to swallow if you're on the opposite side of the debate. But reality bites. A small proportion of society cannot and should not enforce its desires on the rest of the population. Fair is fair and gays lost, they just don't have the support they think they do. And they can call everyone bigots. But the fact is that if they were to force themselves on society (and I'm not saying that's what they're doing), then they would be tyrannical dictators. Who's worse?
Gay rights are human rights. True. But is there a line to be drawn between what we need for the future and institutions we've held dear in the past? And should we even try to join institutions that abhor us?
An inherent flaw in any democratic system is that the winners are probably the best liars. Groups that are better at convincing the rest of us to back up their causes win votes. And so, had the gay community had more money to invest in marketing or other campaign strategies, perhaps they would've won. But that doesn't change the fact that under the current paradigm, and more surprising so, during a time when a call for change was heeded by most Americans, 52% of voters agreed to overturn the state Supreme Court decision to legalize same sex marriages.
By the way, I don't see too many straight groups protesting the results.
Plan of action:
If gays want to get any where with gay marriage they have to leave all religious establishments behind. They shouldn't be politically nice to them and should descend upon them with fury and without mercy. We're queer and we're here and we are unilaterally, completely and forever leaving all church doctrine behind (which basically means all of Christianity and marriage). Enough of this trying to get endorsements from Reverends; what are you doing to me?
I recognize there might be a group of religious gays out there. I have news for them. Based on the Bible, they're living in sin. They should stop their sinful behavior. Religious gays should let the rest of the movement proceed without the burden of religion and leave the church out of this game. The bad, agnostic gays can always repent later anyway, that's what the Bible says and it's a win win strategy.
If I were gay and wanted to obtain my human rights through marriage and wanted to commemorate and legalize my union, I wouldn't go for "marriage". Why join a homophobic establishment to begin with? I would develop a new ceremony and celebrate my union with my friends and family without the historical and religious cloud of "marriage". I would have a candle ceremony or something. I think the gay community should start working on their own traditions. They could call it "garriage" and create ceremonies that include writings by gay authors and make up their own vows.
Once rules of garriage have been established, the community should turn the gay ceremonies into common gay practice. Let the straights be marginalized for once.
Lastly, they should work on getting garriage legally recognized. This shouldn't be that difficult. It doesn't involve the constitution. It doesn't ask for benedictions from the Pope. It doesn't even interfere with common straight practices or beliefs. Foreign marriages are formally recognized in the USA as are marriages by different faiths. This would be an addition.
The whole thing is embarrassing to witness. No matter which side you're on.


Recently by TheMrsCommentsDate
Jul 20, 2009
Basseh Dige
Jul 06, 2009
Marg bar Coup D'etat - CHI
Jun 28, 2009
more from TheMrs
Kaveh Nouraee


by Kaveh Nouraee on

Thanks for the compliment. I know that even if you don't agree with me, at least you're sincere.





Never blame or sanction any one for my act please

by Souri on

Kaveh or anybody else in this site is not to get the blame for my parole.

I always work alone. Don't make another drama in this site too.

I just said my overall opinion about all I see here.

My applogies to Kaveh and TheMrs.

Sorry about that.

American Wife


by American Wife on

Thanks for an interesting article.  This is my adios amigo.  Hopefully I'll see something else from you soon.

Kaveh.  You're not fun anymore.  It used to be entertaining AND enlightening.  You're intelligent and offer good arguments.  Lately you sound bitter and angry. 


Don't worry

by Souri on

let them delete all comment and close all blogs in order to promote only one group's voice !

This will only have a negative impact on this site. Nothing else.

Self-destruction !!!

Kaveh Nouraee

To Clarify

by Kaveh Nouraee on

I'm the one who said that I don't give a rat's ass about the bible either.

Not only that, but I said what I really think it is, which was enough to get it deleted.

For a bunch of openminded people, they have a hard time thinking outside the box.


i agree

by Anonymous000--- (not verified) on

this is a difficult stretch of imagination, that is, reconciling religion and egalitarian demands of societal life. But I’m not sure it is impossible. It is one of the most puzzling predicaments of our time.

Also I am personally not sure if I disagree with you that accommodating egalitarianism from within a religious framework is desirable (even if possible). But I think anyone who advocates an entirely secular solution must also admit that such a formula would necessarily entail another act of deprivation. Why can’t gays aspire for a committed religious life just as anyone else may choose to do so?

Additionally , as a matter of strategy, so far as American society (and any other similarly religious ones) are concerned, working within religion might yield more consensus in the end. The record is not promising so far, but the battle must go on.

I’m glad I checked this blog; Thank you for raising an important issue!

American Wife

Ey Khaanoom, man ba shoma naboodam keh...

by American Wife on

Nah.. nah!

I was responding to another comment from our resident Republican who stated that since it was voted upon, that it's a done deal.  We might not be ready for this now... but hopefully society WILL be ready one day.

No, my dear Mrs... I had great empathy for your article and can't think of a thing that I don't agree with.  I'm greatly saddened by the fact that what you say is true!!!!! 


Ey baba American

by TheMrs on

Ey baba

American Wife, What the heck man? when did I say the matter is closed because it was voted twice? I'm saying that at this point in time, the majority of the vote was against this. And that's just a fact. Who knows what's going to happen in the future.

As far as the Bible goes, it's clear on some issues. But I'm not saying I agree with them. I am against all religions, every day of the week and especially twice on Sundays.

Is my blog that ambiguous? I am saying that gays should be allowed to get married. That they shouldn't wait for the Church to sanctify their marriages. That society has a lot of thinking to do about what is and isn't the worth of marriage. And that at the end, if gays can't get married, they should develop a process on their own to legalize their marriages.

How did I end up being the bigot here?




by BryanFuller (not verified) on

How does it do that the Gay marriage was forbidden by referendum in CA? Everyone I know here doesn't understand what happened...

American Wife

If you're going to spend time reading an article...

by American Wife on

comment on THAT.  Why waste time and effort correcting a spelling error.  Who are you... the grammAR and spelling police?  I was able to follow the gist of the comment... I'm sure you were was well since you're "an Intelligent Reader"....:-)

It's amazing when you think about it how progressive we HAVE become.  So many incredible changes in less than a century.  But we have a long long way to go. 

It's unfortunate that in this day and time... and particularly with the current regime that controls your own country... that someone could think that because "it was voted down twice", that the matter is closed.  There is no doubt that the religious faction doesn't approve of homosexuality.  It's a further truth that those same religious factions have determined what the Bible does and doesn't say or mean with such complete authority.  How utterly offensive that is to me!

You have no idea of the confliction that this subject brings to families.  I do.  My brother is gay... my family is Catholic.  To hear some people talk, they would suggest that we disinherit our brother.  Or suggest that he was not entitled to the same rights that we are. 

It would be the proudest day of my life if I were able to attend my brother's wedding with his partner... to hear him commit to loving and obeying (opps.... ixnay the "obey") with the same privileges that I have.

TheMrs. has stated quite plainly and simply the contradictions of the whole friggin' mess.  I doubt I would have been able to say it any better. 

ebi amirhosseini

a little constipated,a little wound up...

by ebi amirhosseini on

but Keith is good at what he does,thank God he is not fully constipated & wound up like Bill O'Reilly or Brit Hume  for that matter.



by An Intelligent Reader (not verified) on

shuold or should??


American Wife: Yes, I

by TheMrs on

American Wife:

Yes, I don't get who gives a rat's ass about the Bible either.

Yes, I know things will be put to vote many times. It shuold be that way. At some point, society will turn and the will be acceptable. I just don't think it's here yet.

Anony000: Thank you for constructive criticism and it gives me something to think about. But I have looked into the history of Christianity but I don't have a phd in it. I've reached the conclusion that the text can be flexible to a point. Leviticus is clear about homosexuality. But I don;t get religion to begin with so why it would regulate people's sex life, in this day and age, is beyond me. The bible also forbids fornication and the catholic church is against contraceptives and abortions. Go figure.

Salvador: It's funny, at the beginning, the guy is so adamant that he doesn't know any gay people. It's such BS. Anyone who doesn't know a gay person is either lying or on another planet.



Jesus Loves Boys:I read

by TheMrs on

Jesus Loves Boys:

I read the news and articles were referring to gays trying to get endorsements from the Church, here, I'm just saying I don't get why they would want to do that. 

In a society, everyone has a right to have their nose in other people's business. Otherwise, if they were throwing gays in jail, it wouldn't be my business either...right?! WRONG. 

Are you that dumb? Here, I was talking about how firstly the Bible doesn't make sense and secondly how the gay community shouldn't be waiting for endorsements from the Church.

You would be lucky to get a chance to f the way I f.

Too bad we have too many people like you living every where! Read againg, then comment. And if you aren't clear about what I'm saying, ask first.


Holakouee Archive

by marryNoName (not verified) on

If you listen to Dr. Holakouee you will love this site, it has his radio shows from the past and the present. //

American Wife

I'll have to go back and listen again.

by American Wife on

I took it as his being facetious.  Maybe I'm wrong.  If he meant it, then I'm disappointed too.  That doesn't take away his right to complain though... especially when it comes to Bush....LOL.

But... I still love the man.  Between him and Rachel, I could listen all day long.  :-0

The comment about Elizabeth was a joke but it is to your credit that you're not impressed with that conservative bimboleena. :-)

Kaveh Nouraee

Keep him!

by Kaveh Nouraee on

The words came from his own mouth! Is it not to be believed?

So then he's either a hypocrite or a liar. Either way, you can have him. Whatever tiny shred of credibility he had as a sportscaster trying to play "serious journalist" went out the window when he said he doesn't vote.

All but one of the women on that panel are avowed Democrats who were very vocal in their support of Barack Obama and dislike of McCain, GWB and the GOP during the campaign. And even THEY took issue with and didn't buy his "it's symbolic" BS.

Baba Wawa had to yell over the rest of that den of yentas (especially Joy Behar and Elisabeth Hasselbeck) in order to try and diffuse the tension.

Elisabeth Hasselbeck does absolutely nothing for me, by the way.


TheMrs, I invite you to see

by Anonymous000--- (not verified) on

the question from a different perspective. It is less about this or that (legal) institution, this or that (legal or social) title, and more about being considered to be 'the same' and not 'different'. While granting the same privileges to gay civil unions is already a step many countries could take as the first step forward, in some other places the soil may be ready for the final step of recognition of gays as 'equal' to just anyone else. This country shold not be far from it. You can understand this only if you can imagine yourself for a second in a position that gets full respect, but still viewd as different. Sometimes, outright hatred is easier to put up with than a prima facie, politically-correct admission to a group with a different ex ante position assigned to you.

There is more to say on the religious side, but I assume you can learn about that if you studied the history of Christianity and not stayed content with a literal meaning of the text.
We human beings apparently have a long way to go before we learn how to accept and embrace anything that is perceived as 'different' with an open heart and mind on a general level without resorting to rationalizations and exceptions.

American Wife

You're just jealous because we have Keith

by American Wife on

and all you have is Hannity and Colmes....LOL

Ok, I admit Keith sometimes looks like he's a little constipated and yes, absolutely he gets a little wound up.  But I LOVE HIM... he's awesome.  Tells it like it is.

I can't believe you of all people believe everything you hear on TV... and The View????  Just checking Elizabeth out, eh?

I don't think either side has presented it's case very well.  However, for me, it's a matter of rights.  You can go on and on and on about what the bible says (like any one of you give a rat's ass about the bible) but it's fallible, just as we humans are. 

There are no limitations on how many times something can be voted on before it's passed.  It's no indication of whether it's right or wrong.  How many years did women struggle before they got the right to vote.  How many years did blacks struggle before they got the right to eat in the same restaurant as you?  It can be voted down a 100 times and still be valid.  The fight will continue, with or without your approval.


Irandokht, I made it to

by TheMrs on


I made it to about 1:19 and was laughing so hard I had to stop the video. It looks like he is forcing himself and holding back a loud fart. PUHLEEZ

Marriage with its tradition and history and religion is so much more than giving eveyrone a chance not to be alone. This is exactly why gays want in on it. If I were to be the gays chief strategist, I wouldn't do that.

But of course, in this day and age, gays should have every right to legalize their unions and get any benefits that come with that.

As for voting, I never vote. But I reserve the right to complain. It's a birth right.

Does anyone know if this guy is married? From the sounds of it, he's got no clue what he's talking about.



You should be embarrassed of

by Jesus loves boys (not verified) on

You should be embarrassed of yourself. What does your religion have to do with other people's life? I believe in this piece you have just sugar coated your bigotry. get real and get your nose out of other people's life.

Do you believe in bible? Start stoning those who work on sabbath day. also if a girl is not virgin she should be stoned in front of her fathers doorstep!

Bigotry is bigotry even if it is sugar coated. Be a good christian, mind your own business. What you are saying is basically "You should f*ck the way I f*ck". I'm just happy people like you don't live in Iran we have enough of religious freaks over there.

Kaveh Nouraee

Poor bastard looked like he's about to cry

by Kaveh Nouraee on

Throw him a Kleenex. 

I saw the video. I'm not impressed or moved by his words in the least. He's an admitted phoney.

He admitted on The View that he doesn't even vote. As far as I'm concerned, if you have the right to vote in this country, and you don't even exercise that right, then you have no right to complain about a goddamn thing.

All of the vitriol he has been spewing is just a sham.


Azadeh Azad

IRANdokht jaan

by Azadeh Azad on

Thank you for this video. I couldn't have said it any better. It seems that our Omar Khayyam was as cool as Jesus who supposedly insisted that his message of universal Love is superior to the Laws of the Old Testamment that were established before his time.




Gay should have a "civil

by pomme (not verified) on

Gay should have a "civil union", with all the rights , privileges and responsibilities of a marriage, but I don't like it to be called a marriage. It is just not the same.



by IRANdokht on

put your opinions aside and listen to this please:



Kaveh Nouraee

The Most Embarrassing Part

by Kaveh Nouraee on

is that there was a vote on this issue.


Both times it was voted down by the people in an election.

It's enough, already. Basseh, baba.