Misc

Can you handle the Truth???

I suggest to all of you in doubt of whether Iranians would welcome any actions to overthrow the repressive regime by anybody much like a drowning person accepting a lifeline thrown to him even by the devil himself, let it be Americans, Russians, Chinese or whoever, to spend that $1200 on an airline ticket and go to Iran for a month talking to people from all social classes in all places. Unless if you are one of those special privileged, government connected sellouts you will see and grasp the dire situation our people are in and you will understand why this time around is different than any other regimes or governments we had before no matter how corrupt and oppressive they were. You see the poverty and hopelessness in the youth. The absolute desperation and rampant dilemma of drugs, prostitution, poverty and lack of respect for human rights and dignity by all elements in the government. Then you’ll understand why everywhere you go people keep asking you when is US going to attack the regime, when is this nightmare going to end somehow by someone, and when you answer them this is all some nasty political games being played by both sides for oil and money they stare at you with their hopeless and disappointed eyes in disbelief and despair. Akheh bey ensaf balatar az siyahi ke dige rangi nist.

Personally I don’t think US would ever attack the regime and desire the removal of the bastard child it had with Euro h*’s 30 years ago. But there are elements in US politics that think they don’t need to deal with and keep a savage animal that now has grown to a full predator of humanity and freedom, and can achieve their goals by replacing it with a more human like of a government, much like karzai in Afghanestan. But the camp who wants this savage IRI beast around for maximum profit, mainly and not surprisingly British appeasements policy and American “Brzezinski“ policy, think they can contain it and it’s worth the risk to keep this savage animal around but just shorten its leash a bit. Any day Iranians would go with the former one, at least it would give iranians a breathing room for having hope for a brighter future, recall Fariba khatami, it failed 'caz he came from the same beast but that is the idea. You may not agree and yap about Iranian pride and nationalism and shia martyrdom but then I would suggest to you to re-read more carefully the first paragraph I wrote above.

The Origin of Shiism

First of all, at present, it does not matter what the roots of Shiism are. What matters is its present state of affairs and how it views things.

Having said that, it must also be pointed out that, anti-Islam Iranians have invented stories and fabricated history about the roots of Shiism, in order to attribute it to a foreign origin or entity. This way, such Iranians feel that they prove their purity. But, the reality has nothing to do with such fabricated histories.

Shiism started when Imam Hossein married Shahrbanou, the daughter of Yazgerd, III, the last king of Iran before Arabs invaded Iran. Shahrbanou's grave is near Tehran. Because Iranians were not willing to accept Arabs domination, they invited Imam Hossein to go to Iran and from there to rebel against Omavian. Imam Hossein sent his wife, Shahrbanou, to Iran in advance, but was killed in Karbala on his way there. That is why Imam Hossein and his murder play such a fundamental role in Iranian people's religious sentiments.

There is no doubt that Shiism was also strong in Lebanon. The most important reason for this was that, hazrat-e Zeynab, Imam Hossein's sister, was taken to Syria after her brother was murdered, and there she bravely fought the murderers of her brothers and their families, and truly exposed them with her courageous speeches. There was no Lebanon in history. It was all part of Syria.

But, the roots of Shiism goes back to Iran; Shiism is a pure Iranian invention.

Iranians did not commit suicide when they overthrew the Shah. Any revolution with as much popular appeal, and as many good economical, social, and political reasons as those of the Iranian revolution, cannot be attributed to the people being fooled, "committing suicide," etc. After 30 years, and with the benefit of hindsight - which is always a wonderful quality - it is easy to make such outrageous statements.

People like you Zion confuse the root cause of that revolution and its legitimacy with what happened after the revolution, when it was hijacked by right-wing mullahs and their allies. The two are not the same.

Making such outrageous statements is even beneath you Zion, and this is while your one-sided, often unfounded, political positions and opinions have taken you to such low levels of objectivity that is difficult to describe.

the question, please Mr zion

tell us if you are from iranian origion or else?

Suicide

Well, many actually argue that Iranians have already committed suicide back in 1979. Nothing can thrump that really.

As for shia Islam, it is not that straight forward. There are various origins in shia islam. The one that separates religion and politics until the comming of the Mahdi originated in mesopotamia and Yemen, and has a lot of old Persian, Babylonian and Jewish elements in it. Politically it is the direct inheritor of Jewish rabbinic tradition that asserts the exact same thing (about the Messiah of course, instead of Mahdi), and which stands sharply in contrast to the basic tenets of Islam itself by the way. The one in charge in Iran today traces its roots back to lebanon, where the sect is basically a continuation of Catholicism and extremely political and fascistic. But nice try. :-)

AnonymousIrooni

Is it possible for you and your type to comment or respond without insulting, without calling people names, without labeling them? Obviously not. If your reasoning is strong, why do you have to resort to such language?

First, the title of your older response was, "Mammad you are a joke," and then somehow it disappeared after apparently even you got embarrassed by it. Exactly the same response appeared, but with a more polite title, except that it had been done in a hurry and so Mammad was Mamma (or may be that was another insult?). Then calling me a Kooko leftist, etc.

You want to discuss issues, respond to what I said point by point, instead of resorting to slogans, and defending what cannot be defended.

(i) I am happy that you agree that Shi'ite Islam does not condone fascism. That is progress.

(ii) The point was, not every dictatorship is a fascist dictatorship. This is based on your own definition of fascism that you quoted from wikipedia. You want to refute it, say why in a scientific manner, based on the definition of fascism, and the all important concepts of a central authority and sacrifice for the State. I gave you detailed response by pointing out the power hierarchy and structure in Iran, which violates the main tenet of fascism. What did you do? Talk in generalities, mostly slogans.

(iii) I did not say Ayatollah Khamenei's power is limited, it is wide, and constitutionally so. What I said was what we have in Iran with him at the top does not conform to a fascist state, with so many centers of power. Just take a look at, for example, the judiciary in Iran. Dr. Hashem Agha Jari is given a death sentence in Hamadan, but is freed in Tehran after appeal! Majles approves something, the GC rejects it, but the EC ultimately accepts it. This is not what happens in a fascist state.

(iv) What does what you say about the West have anything to do with what I said? I agree, the West is after wealth. But,

(1) beneath the soil of Islamic nations lies one of the vastest wealth ever - 70% of the known oil and natural gas in the world, with an uncalculatable price.

(2) China and India are rapidly growing with 1/3 of the total population of the world. The West is particularly worried about China. But, China needs to import oil, as does India. The oil must come from Islamic nations. To control China is to control the flow of oil to it. That is why the West demonizes Islam in order to justify attacking and controlling Islamic nations. Think a bit deeper than McDonald and Starbuck. The growth of Islam in the West is not the point (and no danger to the West at this point), although even that has rang the bell for so many; just do a little Google search.

(3) Osama bin Ladin is a child of the West, as is Taliban. The history behind these two groups are just too well documented. Even people like you should know it.

(v) Regarding Palestinians: I am a supporter of human rights and respect for them. Human rights ARE UNIVERSAL. We do not have one set for Israel, one set for Palestinians, one set for Iranians, etc. Therefore, just as I care about violation of human rights in Iran, I also care about its violations for the Palestinians by Israel. If the Palestinians do something to violate the human rights of Israeli, I condemn that too.

So, it may be a tired thing to you, but it is not to me.

zion are you Iranian?

or any thing that may link to iran oe way or another?any roots?this is a honest question. I just wonder!!!

Mammad You Missed the point

In response to my assertion that the IRI s fascist, you went on a dissertation about shia Islam and gave us a very
nice article about it. I am no dummy. I understand that Shia Islam believes in separation of Mosque and state. That was the rule in Iran for the past 500 year. However, I was not talking about Shia Islam. I was talking about the Cult of Velayateh Faqih, invented by Khomeini, which broak away with this General rule. Many Grand Ayatolahs in Iran and majority outside of Iran (IRAQ & LEBANON)do not believe in this concept.

Accordingly, your analysis with respect to Shia Islam is useless and meaningless when it comes to the IRI. You say Shisim does not recognize the state- Yeh OK- But IRI Velyateh Faqhism has taken over the state which it does not recognize and is using it as a tool to spread its cancerous ideology. Look at what is happening to Lebanon. Do you blame Israel for that to?

Again use common sense and analyze the IRI and the elements of fascism. All the elements of fascism exist in IRI today. Your claim that Khamenei's powers are limited does not fly. That may have been the original intent of the IRI constitution but the effect and reality today are totally different.

Finally, like a typical islamists/kooko lefty, you take a cheap shot at the west by claiming that its targeting Islam. The west could care less about religion. The west of today, like the west of yesterday, cares about wealth. Tell me, how many countries that have McDonalds and Starbucks has the US attacked lately? Can you count them? "Islamo-Fascism" has been created to deamonize Islamo Fascist not Muslims. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the west and I don't see anyone in the west try to stop it. Don't confuse the issue.

Spare us with the defenseless Palestinians. Its an old tool used to confuse the issues. The Arabs we using it first and now the IRI has picked it up as its own tool.

Again, at least Zion is honest but you as a Hamvatan are not.

My little parallel universe called IRAN

In my parallel universe bunch of, what I like to call, embedded Arab thugs hijacked a country and 70 million people in it and are choking the life out of them by providing crack and heroin to the youth cheaper than rice and exporting their underage girls and boys to their rich Arab masters across “Arabian gulf” to use as sex slaves and keeping the most majority of the people in absolute poverty. in my parallel universe these Arab worshipers are oppressing, imprisoning, torturing and murdering students, teachers, writers, workers and anybody who dares to raise a voice of discontent and ask for accountability and transparency. In my parallel universe the tongue of a union worker called osanloo is cut for speaking out for his rights and fellow bus drivers and female doctor is raped and then hung by thugs called etellati, then basigis in Kerman rape and execute students based on recognizing them mofsed fel arz. In my parallel world there is a guy called velayat faghi, sent directly by God, who decides who lives and who dies and makes decisions for 70 million Iranians. Somebody who has been known to sing roozeh for 5 rials and beg for food, a pedophile, heavy drug user (payeh manghali) and answers to no one or not accountable by any law except an invisible friend from another parallel universe. You know, you are right, we are living in parallel universes, or orthogonal is more like it. The piece I previously wrote pertains to my world. In your world, aha, I mean black hole of velayat, oil money is fairly and equally distributed among lucky aghazadeha to drive their bimmers and live it up in ho town. Looks like our universes are never going to cross except when the first bomb rocks manghaleh agha. Live it up you all, but know that space and time can bend and in physical world nothing is impossible especially when it comes to human spirit and longing for dignity and freedom.

Zion, spokesman for Iranian people

Breaking news:

Just a few minutes ago, Zion, the spokesman for Iranian people, threw his support behind Salar, confirming that Iranian people living in Iran do want their country to be destroyed by the US. When Zion was asked why Iranians would want to commit suicide by wishing such attacks, Zion replied, "I believe it would be good for Israel."

As we say in Persian: The fox was asked, who is your witness? He replied, my tail!

The Unparallel universe of Mammad,

Can you listen to your own nonsense and not throw up?. When are you going to learn something other than cut-and-pasting the same crap over and over again?. You try to portray yourself as an intellectual but all you have to offer is how evil United State is and that’s it….. To you status quo is ideal. You have your shia propagating IRI in power and that’s all that matters.
You, very artfully twist any anti-IRI argument to anti Iranian and start your anti US slogan. All Salar was saying was that we should welcome any help we can get to achieve our goal (overthrow of IRI), even if that help is coming from our enemy. If you don’t agree with that then say so. You don’t need to start the copy and paste of the same old slogans.
Add some value to the debate. Come out and say why do you think IRI is the best regime for Iran (Not why US is the worst evil on earth). Stick to the subject of the discussion.
Using your own analogy, I think your universe is perpendicular to our universe. You already have crossed it and getting farther away every second…..

Exactly

Well said Salar.

The parallel world of Salar

According to the latest theory in cosmology, our universe is only one out of an infinite number of possible universes. The laws of science in other universes are not necessarily the same as those in our universe. These universes can never come into contact with each other.

You certainly seem to live in one of these parallel universes with no contact whatsoever with ours. Because if you lived in our universe, you would know how fiercely nationalist Iranians are. Combine that with the long tradition of martyrdom in Shi'ism, and you will get a powerful force that would cutoff the hands of any foreign invaders.

Let's see how social and political laws in your universe works:

(i) In your parallel universe, Iranians want to replace one bad regime with a puppet regime, having come to power through military attacks.

(ii) In your parallel universe, Iranians want to destroy their country - like what happened to Iraq - in order to get rid of the regime.

(iii) In your parallel universe, Iranians are, in fact, deaf and blind, incapable of seeing what the US has done to Iraq and Afghanistan.

(iv) In your parallel universe, you - someone who probably has not been to Iran for years, if ever - get to be the spokesman for 70 million Iranians living in Iran.

These social "laws" may be valid in your universe, but not in ours.

An imbecile monarchist radio "analyst" in Los Angeles said last year, "I believe that Iranians like to see US soldiers patrol the streets of Tehran." You seem to be from the same breed, or have listened to his diatribe too much.

Aside from your fantasies in your pararrel universe, tell me: assuming that the US can invade Iran (which it can not) and overthrow the regime (which it can not), why would it want to leave Iran alone afterwards?

Because it loves to see a democratic Iran? Nonsense. The US is directly responsible for the present situation in Iran by overthrowing Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh's government. But, aside from this, why does the US not demonstrate its love of democracy by pressuring its own allies in the region, all run by corrupt dictatorial regimes (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, ..)?

Because the US is benevolent? Oh yeah! That is why it has destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, your universe can never come into contact with mine. Otherwise, I would have told these in person.

Salar: don't make us laugh... who are you to make this call?

As usual out-of-touch Tehrangelesi's feel entitled to speak on behalf of 70 Million iranians. There is absolutely no indication that anyone would "welcome" a foreign invasion.

If Iranians want to put their lives on the line, they can remove the government right now. They are perfectly capable and there's no need for bombing.

Rarely in history of Iran has anyone sided with a foreign army for "freedom", no matter how bad their own government was. Could it get any worst than Qajars?

Snap out of your childish fantasy. Invite US and Britain to kill Iranians so they could "liberate" Iran and then hand over all that oil to the "iranian people" for free? Just like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan right?

What a joke.

Iranians welcome any actions from anybody to remove IRI

and they are willing to pay the price no matter what. Freedom doesn’t come cheap and it’s an insult to Iranian people to say they don’t recognize this fact. If you know anything about the history of Iran, you’d recognize that Iranian people have always been ready to pay the price and sacrifice in pursuit of their freedom. Iran is occupied right now by a foreign Arab force and those traitors supporting them. It would be very smart of us to use our other enemies to remove this occupying force from our country. This does not mean by using them we are going to let the helping force, namely America or whoever, to become the new occupying power in Iran. Americans themselves used French support to beat British in their independence revolution and French were an instrumental force in the process even though Americans never fully trusted them or even liked them, and to this day french remained a rivaling force in world affairs. The end lesson here is that you are only worthy of true freedom when you can use all instruments at your disposal shrewdly and fully, even if that means using enemies of your enemies against them when those who you are siding with may have been your enemies or may become your enemies in the future. There are no purity and presistance in this world, you must be able to adapt and adjust based on your interests. There are no permanent enemies or friends when it comes to world affairs and politics.

Anonymoush

If you wish to respond, first read carefully what I say, and stick to the issues.

You make two mistakes:

(i) You think every dictatorship is a fascist one, and

(ii) You think if some people carry out certain crimes in the name of an ideology or religion, it is in fact the ideology's fault. George W. Bush has committed all sorts of crimes in the Middle East, and has violated practically every law in the US that protects the civil rights of the citizens. By his own admission, he is a christian fundamentalist. So, since you love the Western way, you should decide where his behavior fits.

Both of the above premises are false.

(A) First, let's look at what Shi'ism is, and then decide whether it fits the imaginary Islamo-fascism. The all important issue is the question of the central authority.

In traditional Shi'ism (and I do not even discuss other interpretations, such those of Dr. Ali Shariati, or more recently Dr. Mohsen Kadivar) all people are divided into three groups:

(i) The learned - the ayatollahs - who are supposedly knowledgeable enough that can be emulated by the masses. Note, however, that being recognized as an ayatollah is not a governmental or official thing. It is the masses who, by following a particular person who has religious education, elevate him to that rank. Note, also that the number of ayatollahs can be very large.

(ii) The common masses (the Moghalleds), who do not have enough knowledge to decide for themselves. Note, however, that such a person is completely free to decide who he/she wants to emulate.

(iii) The MOHTAATS, those who are knowledgeable enough to decide for themselves. Note, however, that this is a completely personal choice. Anyone can decide for himself/herself that he/she is a Mohtaat, not needing anyone.

Therefore, as you can see, the question of authority in Shi'ite Islam is completely different from your own quote from Wikipedia. There is no central authority in Shi'ism, as there is in fascism or Nazism. But, there is a central authority in Wahabism and Salafism.

Moreover, if, Iran's ruling elite commits crimes in the name of Islam and Shi'ism, it has nothing to do with the religion itself. Velaayat-e Faghih is simply one line of thinking in Shi'ism, and many, including the majority of the ayatollahs, do not even support it.

But, the present IRI system does not fit the classical definition of fascism, even according to your own quote from Wikipedia. In Iran's system of government, there are many centers of power:

(i) We have parliament, but then we have the Guardian Council, and both are watched by the Expediency Council.

(ii) We have the Faghih, but also the president.

(iii) We have the Army, but also the Sepaah.

(iv) We have the Defense Ministry, and the Foreign Ministry, but also the Supreme National Security Council.

(v) We have Ministry of Higher Education, and Ministry of Education, but we also have the Cultural Revolution Council.

Thus, there are multiple centers of power. Even Ayatollah Khamenei must take into account the views of many other ayatollahs. He also has never taken a position against Ayatollah Sistani, who is against intervention of religion in politics.

These are all against the main tenet of fascism, namely, an all powerful person and all powerful central authority. In fact, in fascism everybody must sacrifice itself for the State, but Shi'ism does not even recognize the State. It only recognizes the Islamic WORLD.

Conclusion: Not, every dictatorship is a fascist regime, and Shi'ism does not, in any shape of form, condone fascism and even dictatorship.

(B) Second, in Shi'ism, all the Islamic teachings are divided into two groups:

(i) Ahkaam-e Avvaliyeh, which are those that cannot be changed under any circumstance. For example, one cannot be a muslim but deny the prophecy of hazrat-e Mohammad. The number of Ahkaam-e Avvaliyeh is actually quite small.

(ii) Ahkaam-e Saanaviyeh, which are those that can be reinterpreted and changed according to the needs of the society and the era. The vast majority of Shi'ism teachings do, in fact, fall in this category.

This gives complete flexibility to Shi'ism. Compare the Catholic religion and its present Pope who is a reactionary with, for example, Ayatollah Yousef Saneie, and Dr. Mohsen Kadivar who are very progressive but religious. Or consider what the Torah says which is practiced by the Jews, a lot of which is completely reactionary. In this sense, Shi'ism is actually a very progressive.

(C) The non-existent Islamo-fascism has been created simply to demonize Islam.

(i) There are many dictatorial regimes around the world led by church-going leaders. Should we call them Christo-fascists?

(ii) The Christian fundamentalists in the US are far worse than our Hezbollahis in Iran. They support establishment of white, Anglo-Saxon, Christian government in the US, are fervent supporters of Israel and whatever it does, are mostly racist, anti-gay, anti-abortion, ... Should we call them Christo-fascists (some people actually do)?

(iii) On a daily basis, Israel commits horrendous crimes against defenseless Palestinians. Should we call them Judo-fascists?

No, the West does not call them as such. Why? Because the West has targetted Islam, trying to demonize it.

I believe in a democratic secular republic. I am also a practicing Shi'ite muslim, and am absolutely positively proud of it. The religion that I believe in is progressive, flexibile, and open.

Islamo-Fascism

Fascism is an interesting word. Some would say that the current neocons are fascists. I mean let's look at what they've been trying to do over the past 7 years. Their strategies seem to come stright from the third reich playbook. National ID card, homeland security, existential external threat. If you look at Nazi propaganda it's truly scary how similar the current neocon rhetoric is to it. For more information I highly urge you to visit the website below:

www.infowars.com

Mamma: Islamo Facsism

You say the Islamo Facsism Does not Exist or that it is limited to the Sunnis? What do you call Velayateh Faqih? Islamic Shia Democracy? The IRI was the first Islamic Fascist state. It has all the elements of Fascism. Instead of relying on KOKOO left wing propaganda which will do and say anything to damage the so called "western imperialism" please look at the facts on the ground.

Below is the definition of fascism from Wiki for you- SEE CAPS FOR MY SIMPLE ANALYSIS. All the elements apply to the IRI. Please do not insult our intelligence.

"Fascism is a government, faction (HERE ISLAMISTS WHO BELIEVE THE THE CONCEPT OF VELAYATEH FAQIH)or political philosophy that raises nationalism, and frequently race, above the individual and is characterized by a centralized autocratic state (THE IRI IS CENTRALIZED)governed by a dictatorial head (MR KHAMENEI), stringent organization of the economy and society (LOOK WHAT WE DO WITH THE OIL WEALTH), and aggressive repression of opposition (DO YOU NEED ME THE NAMES OF GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS THAT APPLY TO THIS STATEMENT?).[1] In addition to placing the interests of the individual as subordinate to that of the nation or race, fascism seeks to achieve a national rebirth by promoting cults of unity, energy and purity (PURE ISLAM, SHARIA, CULT OF VELAYATEH FAQIH, NAJES ARE WESTERN THINKERS).

Fascists promote a type of national unity that is usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, national, racial, and/or religious attributes (AH RELIGIOUS ATTRIBUTES AGAIN). Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, economic planning (including corporatism and autarky), populism, collectivism, autocracy and anti-liberalism (i.e., opposition to political and economic liberalism" PLEASE ALL THESE APPLY TO THE IRI.

Mammad Jahn, you can find all types of articles to refute all types of things. Its not hard. It is actually
very easy these days with the USA's screw up in Iraq. Regardless, this does not change facts on the ground. The IRI is playing with fire. If it acts like this now without any nukes, how will it act when it could PIOTENTIALY get its hands on such weaponry in a few years? The West will decide by doing its own cost benefit analysis and react accordingly. It has nothing to do with wrong or right, Zionism, imperialism and whatever excuse you can find on the internet.

As far as I am concerned, I prefer the West ideology to the IRI's. However, I pray for my family and Hamvatans, as they are stuck with this corrupt ideology that may lead them to a disaster. No one likes to see their homeland attacked. No one! Including me! But we have no control of the situation. Its Mr. Khamenei (the Supreme Fascist) against the West. Lets see how this chess game is played. But please do not insult our intelligence. At least Zion does not do this and he is honest.

Anonymoush

Since you talk about the legitimacy of US defending its interests, let's talk about it:

Who says illegally and criminally invading a country that was no threat to the US and had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorist attacks represents defending the US interests?

How do you even define the national interests of a country on the other side of the world, in the Middle East?

Under such conditions, if attacking Iran is in the US national interests, why is arming the Shi'ite militia in Iraq not in Iran's interest?

When the Sunnis were in power in Iraq, Iraq was a threat to Iran, both during the Shah and the IRI. So, why is it that Iran has no legitimate security interest in its NEIGHBOR, but a country half way around the world does?

The US has never even presented any firm evidence that Iran is doing this. In recent days there have been several articles on the web and in print that say that the Iraqi government is skeptical about it, at least about this arming being a systematic policy by the IRI.

Last year, when the talk of Iran's intervention in Iraq was hot, there was an article by R. Erlich and M. Sahimi on www.truthdig.com that totally refuted the allegations based on the "evidence" that had been presented.

At the same time, since you seem to be sympathetic to Zion, let me say this. Make no mistake: if the US attacks Iran, Sepaah and the Quds force will respond immediately. And, if they do, the war will spread quickly. This is what Zionists like Zion want: Spreading the war in the Middle East so that they can continue their crimes against the Palestinians.

Regarding Islamo-fascism:

There is not anything called Islamo-fascism. This is a product of the neoconservative thinking that seeks to dominate the world through military power, and in order to justify it, it has literally created a non-existent ideology called Islamo-fascism. Several months ago, there was a good article in www.antiwar.com by a well-known Iranian professor, M. Sahimi, about Islamo-fascism. Read it. Read Ahmad Sadri's article on this site which is right now posted.

Even if Islamo-fascism does exist, it is propagated by the Sunni Wahabi and Salafi sects, and has nothing to do with Shi'ism. Even the neocons do not attribute their own creature to Shi'ism, rather to the Sunni Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

There is no sensible was of making changes in Iran other than doing it from within. As an Iranian nationalist (like myself), do not let yourself to be seduced by propaganda.

Afshin, extremely well and eloquently said

I love to read unbiased, unprejudiced and rational arguments and debates. I wish I could express my thoughts as clearly as you do. However, I am still at a loss as where do we go from here?

Let’s say it was a miserable blunder for US to invade Iraq. Do you think it would serve US interests, security of the region and the lives of Iraqis if US just pulled out and left the region? You say (and rightfully so) that shi’ites around the world look into Iran for support, but do you think that IRI’s motive and position in the Middle East is to just support Shi’ites? Where were all these cries for Iraqi lives when Kurds and Shi’ites were being mass murdered by hundreds if not thousands?. Granted, US invasion may have had nothing to do with that (i.e. protecting Iraqi lives), and looking at it hind side it was a mistake, regardless of its intentions. But, to use Bush administration’s mistake along with sense of nationalism and/or religion as excuse to support IRI and fanatic Islamism is a greater mistake (by no means I suggest that you support IRI).

IMHO, the IRI (not Iran) with nuclear power is a threat to humanity. I know this statement automatically makes me a Zionist, but it is what I believe. It has been IRI’s stated goal to spread fanatic Islam in the region and around the world at any price. With that ideology how can the world afford to take that chance? no matter how small the risk.
Which brings me back to my earlier question: where do we go from here? If not UN, or Sanctions, or war, or meddling/interfering with internal affair of a sovereign nation, then what? Wouldn’t it be too late to wait for something to happen and then react?

PARTY IS OVER

the only thing israel is bleesed by is the state of art weaponry and the will of Eshag's sons to finish off the arabs, the weak arabs as they have been for past 60 years.

party is over and time to pack up and move.the Alska airline is on the tarmac. there is a new boss in the house.

Irrelevance

Lest we forget that Mr. Bolton did not pass the muster of congressional approval and became ambassador in a recess appointment, who really cares what he has to say?  No matter what any "has been" or simply "never was" has to say about Iran, everyone's proverbial cards are on the table.  Everyone knows the other's hand.  In the past 5 years since the inception of this illegal and murderous war where over a million civilians have been killed, not once has an Iranian been caught in the act of aiding the Iraqi insurrgents.  Not once has a satellite photo been produced to illustrate the illegal passage of men, weapons and other equipment through the border.  This with the availability of surveillance technology that could make "Google maps" look like child's play.

But let us not lose sight of reality here either.  Shiite muslims comprise less than 10% of the world muslims.  The Wahabis consider shiites heretics and treat them worse than Iran treats the Bahais.  Iran as the bastion of world shiism or the "Vatican" of shiism has a moral interest in safeguarding the welfare and well being of the Iraqi shiites.  World shiites in essense look to Iran for help and guidance when in trouble.  Though it sounds ludicrous to the point of insanity, it's true.  So Iran has, does, and ALWAYS WILL have an interest in what happens to the Iraqi shiite population.  That fact will never change no matter who's in power.  Even if M.R. Pahlavi were to rise from the grave today, he would say the same thing, and I say this as an admitted secular constitutional monarchist.  Left to their own devices the Iraqi sunnis will use all the guns and bombs the Saudis/Jordanians/Al Qaeda/US are putting at their disposal to kill as many shiites as possible, all this while the US military simply looks on.  In a geopolitcal sense Iran has an active interest in the territorial integrity and general peace in Iraq.  But it also has a moral imperative to assure the survival of its fellow shiites.  Much the same way Israel would not allow the slaughter of Jews in its backyard(nor should it as they rightfully intervened in Africa), Iran cannot allow the murder of shiites next door either.  The US may be between a rock and a hard place vis-a-vis Iran.  But Iran did not create this problem, so bombing Iran should/could not be part of its solution.

OK. Thanks !

And yes! it was the 60th birthday of Israel. 60 years in face of all the odds, all the venom, all the rabid murderers that surround her and drool over her blood... and Israel is still going forward strong and prosperous, blessed with creativity, with inventions and discoveries for all mankind to enjoy every single day of these 60 years.
So thanks as well for mentioning it.
Yom atzma'ut sameach gam lecha! :-)

dont you love it Mr zion?

if that is case then you should love me for it, do you?ohh how sweet??I love you too, the only party I am aware of is the 60th birthday of israel and believe me there is no need for me to crash it since nobody showed up at the party they canceled it.

Why do you have to ruin it for them?

Bahram! Here are the well-trained professionals of your camp going into such trouble to cover up what the real motives are, with sure bets like `The Iraq war`, `Palestinian children` (and similar well tested trademarks), or they try to be creative and come up with a phony show of islamo-fascists acting as `nationalists`... and there comes a party crasher like you and says it out right and exposes the ugliness behind the real agenda.
Why, why do you keep doing this to them?

Zion"s clarifications the best of its kind

so let see!!!you are saying there isnt going to be a mass killing of iranians, ohhh so nothing like happened on 3 days purim festival of blood???so they just artisticaly take off the alleged training camps???no blood comes off anybody nose???are you sure or you need first talk to your rabbias?zionists have lots of holidays and feasts but there is always room for another one.

by the way I heard the austrian guy Yosef fritzel is a jew and israel has the highest child abuse rate, would you like to shade some light on jews-facisits pedaphile (as you would have called musilims)?

Bolton who?

I dont know how many times , this needs to be said, we are not looking for war however any act of war will be responded severely.

anytime before or after you get your house in order in Iraq&Afghanestan.

anytime before or after you fix your financial problem, the morgtage meltdown or growing deficit....

any time before or after oil price hit $150 a barrale

any time before or after the presidential election in your land

our lions are well prepared and waiting for you to make your last mistake.

This is to Q, the critical thinker of our generation

Socrat or better yet Mr Noam Chomsky, no… Mr. Einstein, and now we have Mr. Q.
I remember you directed one of your readers to his high school logic class to recall that you cannot prove a negative proposition. And yet, you argue if a journalist or army spokesman doesn’t mention IRI when displaying seized arsenals, as lack of evidence for IRI involvement.

Are you suggesting that IRI is not supporting the insurgents, Mehdi Army, or Hezbollah if they don’t find a “made-in- Islamic-Republic” tag on their weapons?

Another one of your journalists gave evidence that IRI/Hezbollah is training terrorists in Iran. So, if that is true, what is so heinous to stop that? For one second get hold of your fake nationalism (and /or US/Israel hatred) and let your critical thinking come to surface.

Whether you agree or disagree with what US does, you cannot argue with their right to defend their interest. Someone like Bolton or Bush may think the best way to protect that interest is to bomb the training camps. In his view, those are the source and root of the threat. I and maybe you, (if we were Americans) on the other hand, think that we need to promote regime change from within. Honestly, I don’t know what the right answer is, but I wouldn’t automatically condemn or demonize any response because of blind nationalism.

Many posters have very emotional responses to Zion (maybe because of his name and his firm position with respect to state of Israel). But, when you read his comments, it makes a lot of sense. I don’t think he is advocating war with Iran. He simply is against Islamo-fascism (i.e. IRI), which is my position as well. He is not Iranian, but I am and am a nationalist as well. I don’t feel my wish for overthrow of IRI is treason. I love the free and democratic Iran, but don’t have the balls to do anything about it (I am one of the chickens that Zion is talking about).

Mr. Zion,

why do you always argue in favor of bombing my country? do you not care about the Persian Jews who live near nuclear stations in Esfehan?

PS. I am not muslim, so your standard evasion will not work on me.

Zion; Every Propaganda Line HAS Dried up

The only thing you got wrong was that, the propaganda lines have, in fact, already dried up. That is why most people in this world now recognize Israel for what it is, a cruel, crude, brutal nation which has set up an apartheid system in the West Bank, the largest jail on Earth in the Gaza Strip, and commits crimes against Palestinians on a daily and most often hourly base. Just who are you to lecture us about freedom, and liberation? You just do not have the track record to speak of such nobel causes.

The world also recognizes the propaganda of the Bushies and their Zionist (like you), Christian Zionist, and neoconservative mouthpieces, who are in denial about Iraq and Afghnistan.

Iraq is a propaganda? Obviously, you do not even know what propaganda is! Over a million have been killed, the infrastructure of the country has been destroyed, 4.5 million refugees have been created, 1 out of 10 women or more have become widow, thousands of very young boys and girls have been killed, and most of the rest suffer from anxiety and depression, hundreds of professors and researchers have simply disappeared, ethnic and religious wars have been triggered, and the whole region has become destabilized. Now, if someone talks about these, it is simply propaganda?

If this is propaganda, what is a real talk?

Every propaganda resource will eventually dry out

Including the gold mine for islamist apologists `the war in Iraq.` It is already fading because all this non-stop rpetitions.
The Iraqi invasion was a one-time singular event, replete with mistakes, due to the special circumstances after 9/11. It won`t be repeated. It`s excuses have little to do with what went before it and what the future holds. The stand off with the Islamic regime in Iran has lamost nothing to do with the circumstances, causes and yes even phony excuses that led to the war in Iraq. As I mentioned, it has become very similar to the infamous first world war, and it is interesting to look back at how Nazi sympathizers were using the exact same tactics, especially in places like America with her isolationist tendencies, to warn against another possible mistake as WWI and to advocate for `peace`.

I know your lines, my friends: `All this talk is to segregate and prepare the Iranian public opinion for an invasion.` Bullocks.
You better understand this. If it ever comes to war, God forbid, it would not matter a bit what the poeple inside would `feel` about it.
All the arguments is to prevent this to happen. Is to defuse the situation. NOT to repeat another war. I know you won`t let go of this `iraq` propaganda tool as long as it works. What else have you got to say?

Yes, if you do mean well for Iran, you would realize, just as the partisans back then did, that nothing happens in a vacuum. That the only source of threats is in the idoeological islamo-fascists in Tehran and you would have the intelligence to use the situation and assets of others in your fight, and that you try to make sure you are an active partner in the decisions that are made for the future of your people. Nagging like these will only mean those will be made over your sorry heads, based on interests and needs of the time as they arise.

I know each of you pictures himself as the self appointed crusader here responible for defusing Zionist plots to brainwash the rest of Iranians, that you so brazenly regard as hardly more than cattle. Always prone to be seduced by Zionists and what not. With no individuality and thinking capacity for themselves. Always in need of the likes of you to guard them agains their susceptibility. I know your type very well actually.

I only suggest, once again, that instead of such childish fantasies, if you really mean it, you go back to Iran and do the only thing that can prevent harm to Iranians, help get rid of the fascists in Tehran who are behind it all.
I know you wouldn`t, but it needs to be said to your faces nevertheless.