VOICE

From Robin

Maz, I was kidding.  I did choose Los Alamos for the reasons you say, but  I was joking.  But you're supposedly the satirist, and I"m supposedly the poet, so if you think  it's really a good idea, I'll defer to your opinion on the joke. But what is wrong with do-si-do? It's a variation on doh, seh,doh, isn't it?  So you see, you can count on it..

Naman and others, I intend to reply to you but it's a cmore omplicated post and I need more time.
Robin

To Rosie T.: Los Alamos idea is fantastic

Rosie you are BRILLIANT.  Los Alamos has been the center of atomic bomb research and development since the twentieth century.  We go there in the spirit of non-violence civil disobedience, against war, atomic bomb, IRI regime, and US aggression.  We’ll have a picnic to show the world that we are humans like anybody else, made of flesh and blood.  All non-violent Bahai’s, Muslins, atheists, Shahanshahi’s, IRI agents, and anarchists that believe in change through civil dialogue and exchange of ideas can join in.  I’ll leave Nefrat at home, he is too violent for such an event; but on the other hand maybe I should bring him with me.  He has a wicked volleyball smack.  He can strike the ball at the nose of any player on the opposite court and make her/him bleed, and bleeding is good.  The world can see that we bleed like anyone else.   

Square dancing is great but even though I lived in Oklahoma for a long time I never learned how to do it.  It’s that do-si-do language that I don’t understand.  Will you teach me how to square dance?

You can count on me, I am already there. 

What is so ironic is the

What is so ironic is the hold of ego on the soul. the more you deny the truth the more you have decieved yourself.
Bahaullah has made it a duty on every soul to self investigate the truth. When was the last time anyone in the Islamic world offered you that right without asking for your head in exchange.
The difference b/w the Bahai Faith and Islam is far greater than one can imagine!
so simplifying things to your own satisfaction does not equal the truth.
There is nothing bizzare in the Bahai prayers at least not more so that any other religion, but I suppose costoms and traditions of a coupe thausand years ago may be more bizzare than any thing so contemporary as the Bahai Faith.
Also if Bahaullah modernized some of the cliche of older religions which He certainly did, this should be less bizzare since it has been deliberatly modernized.
You see the cracks in self-deception, the lie making machine of fear and ego!
the first step to recovery is to admit to lack of knowlege not to run and make up stories!!!
what did Rumi gave you that changed Iran for better?
much less the world! He was an inspired soul and that is where his line was drawn by the Author. He saw the light and spoke of it but was not the light, so no one could possibly follow him.
You must come out and say I dont know so that you may qualify for the Knowlege of God.

The only reason God created man was Love.
So the closest way to Him is understanding and seeking that love in the words and deeds of His massengers. that is the way to find answers confusion free! as Jesus also gave you the same tool, thou shall know the tree by its fruit!
the rest is the RAH to TORKESTAN.
as your esteemed poet states, Paaye estedlalian choobeen bowvad. Even it is said in Quran of the confusion of the heart, the head will always be at unease!!

We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in the first instance: We shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction.

If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.

wish you all the luck

Re: Rosie T....Re: Please listen to me

Now Tha's it! Thank you for straight talk....
My point is simple: We do need to look at Bahai in it's historical context...otherwise, it will be misleading. I will make my points very brief (of course, they are not facts but just my understanding today).
I look at Bahai and I see no new point in it - Everything is straight out of Quran, yet it's in denial of it. That is the IRONY. If you go to Rumi's stories and essence of his message, you will find Bahai's declarations all in there. There's a reason for it - Because Bahai was born of Babi belief and that was born of Sheikhieh movement. There's nothing new in it; You can believe me or reject my stance;Or, you can study Mathnavi or Divane Shams yourself and find all that Bahai stands for in them. This is what I call "ugly side" of religion, a battle between Sheikhieh and clergies that was instigated to neutralize clergy grip on popular support. Now, in order to reject Islam to validate his stance, Mr. Hossenali will come and alter certain rituals and traditions in a bizarre way. Just take a look at How he changes daily prayers, Fasting, Marriage laws and etc......

.
Another point I may ilude to is what you see of Bahai declarations now are cosmeticized versions of original ideas Mr. Hosseinali had.....Just to make it to the taste of modern society's taste....Just like americanized version of chinese food!
.
Another point I would like to bring up is to see why few religions from Saudi Arabia to Iran to India suddenly mushroomed up withing a decade.....God must have been very desperate to rescue mankind!
.
Now as it comes to your belief, I have nothing to say except respect and admiration for presenting what you believe. You masterfully paralleled what Rumi says and what Bahai faith says and that is exactly my point. So, what is the difference, you ma ask? The difference is who benifits from who's saying from the same idea. What is becoming a political tool.
My main question is tha:
Why is it that the same ideas presented by Bahai is propagated as "Modern and peaceful" but when it comes to Islam is is propagated as "backward and brutal"? Of, course this is a rhetorical one.
I hope I'm not vague.

Peace;

Actually, Maz...

the next step I had in mind for this website was to organize a picnic.

You know, a long weekend, volleyball, marshmallow toasts, maybe a little square dancing.  Someplace pleasant, warm and spicey during the day, cool and refreshing at night. I was thinking maybe Los Alamos.

Stay posted.
Robin

To Rosie T.

Rosie, Rosie, Rosie, “You savage, monstrous woman of a beast who is attacking our unwary men (some of them married too) on Internet blogs” (that’s what a Harpie is), You big mass of cyber brain, the walking cyber encyclopedia Britannica.  You have a master plan, I know it.  You planned this systematically and meticulously, and now you are laying it out for us, step by step, one by one.  How your journey began with the flames of September 11, how it led you to the light, and so on and so forth.  You have a master plan, I know it, and if it weren’t for that Iranian man of ass we would have been there already.  You want to find a middle ground for all Iranians to come together and meet, unite, and fulfill their destiny, which is salvation of all mankind (and womankind). BUT, I can’t wait till you get to the last episode of the “Hammer It Into Our Heads” drama.  I need to know NOW.  Can you give me a hint, a sneak preview, a peek?  Even Shiia’s allow a peek before a temporary or permanent  commitment.  Please Rosie, just a tiny itsy bitsy little peek at the middle ground, please. 

Take care, 

Naman, please listen to me: Non-ideology as ideology

Thank you for the translation of the Molanaa poem.  It's a quite good one.  And your lyrical moving lines at the beginning are beautiful and your concerns legitmate.  Now please listen carefully:

I started off a long post by quoting Bahaullah's letter to the pope and explaining he was a visionary who predicted the need for the United Nations back in the 19th century.  There is nothing satircal or ironic in the entire post and another person who read it who I never met in my entire life understood this.  Furthermore there is nothing in my post that specifically characterizes my religous beliefs.  . It posits a historical continuity in Iranian religion from its Mazdaist roots to Bahaism of the concept of Eshgh. It could've easily been written by an agnostic  It's a very straightforward post except that because it uses Bahaullah's "Oh Pope" as the opener, it has a poetic tone.

Yet you thought that either I as the writer had some bizarre spiritual worldview or it must be satirical.  And the reason is because your "anti-religious" (read: anti-ideological) stance is now your ideology. It's clouding your thinking. You're approaching this with the idea that because the Bahaullah advocated a particular religion and considered himself a prophet, that he couldn't possibly have made a decent contribution to anything and anyone who is not Bahai and praises him poetically must be doing a satire. Sorry, but a man who not only PREDICTS the need for a United Nations due to impending global disaster decades before anyone else, but DOES something about it, writes to international religious and government heads, tries to start a religion that will include ALL religions (this was 19th century Iran, it was INCREDIBLY progressive at the time...),  iis a VISIONARY. By ANY standards:  religous, spiritual, atheistic, or agnostic.  Bahaullah HISTORICALLY was a VISIONARY.  But you can't see it and as soon as I mentioned his name you thought I was either crazy or writing satire.

So, see, you're doing what you accuse religion of, in attempting to be non-ideological you're narrowing your ideology...see?

And the bitter bitter irony is that you're countering me with MOLANAA...when I posited a historical continuity in Iranian spiritual life, from the Zend Avesta, to the medieval SUFIS, to certain aspects of Shiism to the Bahai of ESGH!!!!    Naman:  MOLANAA!!! ESGH!!! And Molanaa, in this poem, doesn't say he's not this or that, he says he's ALL things AND NO things at the same time.  He wouldn't have had a problem with Bahaullah calling for a United Nations at the end of the 19th century, or with seeing Esgh in other Iranian spiritual and religious beliefs.Molanna would NOT have seen my post on Bahaullah as IRONIC!!!!!  Trust me on this one....  :D

And then you talk about the dark side of religion, like I'm not aware of it. Did you read the part of my post where I told the Bahai to LISTEN to their legitimate detractors to not fall into the same old bullshit?  I really appreciate the dialogue with you but are you dialoguing with me or with yourself?   Seriously, this is a serious question.

And now the final irony: I know QUITE a bit about the dark side of religion, actually, because politically I'm a socialist (on the "soft" side of socialism, meaning mixed economies, but a socialist nonethess). So it means I'm actually influenced by Marx!!  :D

Please  let me know how you feel about what I've said.

Best,
Robin

Re: Rosie T...Re: ....Sasha...yes, you see...

Yes...the unholy side of religion....bloodshed....Feudalism.....Desperation.....Rituals.....poverty.....more Rituals.......Alienation.....Assimilation.....Marxism.....Foreign Occupation......Resistance......Virus infection.....new prophets.....Divide N' conquer.....Subjugation.....Capitolation......Ayatollah's.......Tobacco boycott.....corrupt kings.....corrupt religous figures.....Chaos......heroes.....traitors.....5th column......modernists.....Reactionaries....traditionalists.....Revolution......
As the saying goes, we did not start the fire; It was all burning; Since the world was turning!

All this turmoil will kill my soul if I don't loose myself in search for my beloved;

Rumi (quran in motion - Essence of Rumi):
>
Why think thus O men of piety
I have returned to sobriety
I am neither a Moslem nor a Hindu
I am not Christian, Zoroastrian, nor Jew

I am neither of the West nor the East
Not of the ocean, nor an earthly beast
I am neither a natural wonder
Nor from the stars yonder

Neither flesh of dust, nor wind inspire
Nor water in veins, nor made of fire
I am neither an earthly carpet, nor gems terrestrial
Nor am I confined to Creation, nor the Throne Celestial

Not of ancient promises, nor of future prophecy
Not of hellish anguish, nor of paradisic ecstasy
Neither the progeny of Adam, nor Eve
Nor of the world of heavenly make-believe

My place is the no-place
My image is without face
Neither of body nor the soul
I am of the Divine Whole.

I eliminated duality with joyous laughter
Saw the unity of here and the hereafter
Unity is what I sing, unity is what I speak
Unity is what I know, unity is what I seek

Intoxicated from the chalice of Love
I have lost both worlds below and above
Sole destiny that comes to me
Licentious mendicity

In my whole life, even if once
Forgot His name even per chance
For that hour spent, for such moment
I’d give my life, and thus repent

Beloved Master, Shams-e Tabrizi
In this world with Love I’m so drunk
The path of Love isn’t easy
I am shipwrecked and must be sunk.

Sasha...yes, you see...

The Bahai issue, if seriously considered, sheds much light on ALL spiritual, historical, cultural and political issues concerning Iran.  It's...deep...It holds a key...to everything....

Robin

Rosie T. you were correct...........

 This is a most interesting thread to read and learn from. Thank you for pointing it out to me. :o)

Nadia

?????!!!!! Naman...the irony is...

You're not sure what to make of it?  Ramin understood me perfectly well.  Strange.  Either there is an enormous coincidence going on here, a serendipty that can only be called fate, and Ramin and I are Siamese twins separated at birth, now happily reunited on this website, on this very thread, and we swim together like fishes in what was heretofore MY unique surreal sea, a mental landscape (rather seascape) heralding a new, as yet unspecified McCarthyism, and he is my soulmate and we MUST immediately meet...

OR

you should re-read Dear Pope.  Several times.

There was absolutely not ONE iota of satire or irony in that post,  intentioal OR unintentional.  THIS ENTIRE POST HOWEVER, THE ONE YOU'RE READING RIGHT NOW, IS IRONIC.

REPEAT:  THIS ENTIRE POST IS IRONIC!!!

Robin

Re: Bahai "controversy"/ "Oh Pope..."/Ramin

H'mmmmmm, I'm not sure what to make of your writing!
The opinion looks more like sattirical and sureal, swimming in the river of contemporary politics aiding 21st century McCarthyism; I hope my point is as clear as yours!

You know, we Iranians are very Ironic!

dear shae'r shaer is someone

dear shae'r
shaer is someone who has show oor!
show more of that, and stop emotional jibrish!
you need to contain your row untamed emotions before it consumes you. it is nothing but the abyss of ego.
The time that like of you chastise people is over. Because you dont hear the voice of the world and do not perceive the spirit of times and its onward march toward universal peace does not proof anything but your outter oblivian of the significant changes and dangers humanity is facing.
Ironically though the only one you are chastising is yourself by denying yourself the mental, spiritual and emotional progress and safety!
Not so ironically though Gods justice is spontaneous make yourself aware of that!

as for shae'ery,
the mighty warrier ship that once sailed the see of humanity is fast sinking, for the sea faces a storm like none other, and the ship is stilled in the face of the inevitable fate awaiting her.
Grim indeed is the bottomless salty sea, and the unease the unrest, far more agitating.

Saboksaran be shoor ayand as har harfe bemaghzi
Be harkat avarrad andkak nassimi neyestan ra.

dear Robin, I agree!

just a note to say that I agree with your statements and thank you for all the additional information which I found very interesting. Obviously you have studied Persian History and religion deeply.

With regards to question posed by "the truth", Baha'i holy places are entirely cared for and beautified by donations of Baha'is, we do not accept any money from any body who is not Baha'i.
If you don't believe me just call your nearest Baha'i centre and offer to donate some money!!

Regards
Ramin

Bahai "controversy"/ "Oh Pope..."/Ramin

"Oh Pope, rend the veils asunder," Bahaullah wrote to Pius IX.  "It is their duty [all nations, all religions] to convene in an all-conclusive assembly...and put away their weapons of destruction...[where they shall fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah and] they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation.  Neither shall they learn war anymore."

He predicted the United Nations before even World War I.  He spoke for Isaiah, who spoke for Cyrus, whom Isaiah called a "hidden treasure."  The "hidden treasure" was then taken up by Jesus, the Sufis and the Bahai. But it is first recorded in the words of a Jew who spoke for Cyrus and I am almost certain its roots are in the missing books of the Zend Avesta.  It is an old old Persian voice.  The hidden treasure is Eshgh.

And that is the message of the Bahai. And so it is RIGHT that the words of Isaiah which are also the words of Bahaullah appear on the statue at the UN in New York.  And it is also RIGHT that the headquarters of the Bahaii, through historical "accident" are in that MOST war-torn, blood-splattered, tragic land, sacred to all three Abrahamic religions.

As for the critiques of the Bahai, sanctimony, self-righteousness, and hypocrisy are the dangers of EVERY religion, and you Bahai should consider your legitmate critics your greatest allies and friends. They remind you not to fall into these traps, which are ALWAYS a danger.

As for those who accuse you of being British agents, traitors, etc., well, that's just the old Iranian paranoia talking. You can count yourselves among the MANY on this website who have  had the honor of being accused of being agents of every plot conceivable to the Iranian imagination, an imagination fecund beyond imagination, except when it comes to the concept of personal responsibility.

 Finally, Ramin, yes, quite right. Jesus of Nazareth was born a Jew and what he preached was a kind of Judaism.  The religion that evolved around the cult of his death and spread through the Roman empire, was, foundationally, largely Persian. I did forget, however, to mention the extreme importance of the Greek mystery cults of vegetation, and those were pagan, and the Hindu contribution of the Trimurti (Brhaman the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the dissolver..) which emerged in Christianity as the Trinity (I am that I am, Logos, and Love) reconciling thus the Persian duality...and so you see...one world religion...
Robin

Sincere intentions verified by actions not words..

well....we can go on forever...but again , the questions you ask here are as old as the Bahai faith itself...again it is easy to reject if you dont care to read Books ...Please I beg you to inform yourself...evry question you ask, even my 10 year old Bahai chilld can answer...

Bahai Faith WAS not "formed" In protest to Islam...It is in Fulfillment of Islam...we dont see Religions as separate, competing entities, but rather as God's continuing guidance of Mankind...Every Prophet from the beginning of our written religious history has prophesied a second coming..Zoroastrians await the coming of Shah Bahram as their messiah, Jews, the Mashiah, Christans, the Messiah, Muslims, The Qaim. Bahais believe Muhammad to be the last Prophet of this prophetic age to make this prophecy, Bahais clearly believe that the 19th century in many ways broke with the previous 5000 years; a time of exponential change. The Advent of the Bab and Baha'u'llah signalled a new age for mankind; we believe that Baha'u'llah is the messenger of a new era with Muhammad being the last Prophet of what is called the Adamic cycle to promise of His coming. Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan provides the necessary scriptural proof in Majestic language.

I studied 19th century History at school, and its our troubled history that shows our need for a Global solution. As Iranians we should be proud thatafter Zoroaster once again God chose  to send down His Charter for a new world civilisation through a Persian nobleman such Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri Better known today in the world As Baha'u'llah. It is said that when Tolstoy hears about The Bahai teachings he states: "We spend our lives trying to unlock the mystery of the universe, but there was a Turkish prisoner,(Bahá'u'lláh in Akka, Palestine) who had the key.." In response to a letter he writes: "How can I reject it? ... Clearly, this cause will win over the whole world." 

Tolstoy observed that the principles of the Bahá'í Faith were in accordance with the spirit of the 

age and, in time, would be firmly established in the world, ensuring the well-being of humanity.  

Re: Faryam

Here is one sign of deception:
اعراب و اسلام در آثار بهائی
نگارش یافته توسط kavian
۰۴ مرداد ۱۳۸۵
پرسش: خیلی از فرضیه پردازان بر این باورند که یکی از عوامل بدبختی ایران ورود دین اسلام به ایران بود. آیا دین بهائی هم دربارهء ایران چنین نظری دارد؟

پاسخ: در رابطه با ایران – اعراب و اسلام در آثار بهائی با چند ویژگی عمده روبرو هستیم:

در مورد ایران: عشق به ایران و افسوس خوردن از ویرانی گذشتهء شکوهمند این سرزمین در بسیاری از آثار بهائی مخصوصا آثار حضرت عبدالبهاء دیده می‌شود. در همان حال تاکید می‌گردد که اینک با برخاستن صدای تازه‌ای از ایران یعنی دیانت بهائی، پیشگویی‌های کتاب‌های دینی زردشتی یعنی آمدن سوشیانس، در شخص حضرت بهاءالله تحقق یافته و تعالیم بهائی می‌تواند ایران را بار دیگر به شکوه و بزرگی گذشتهء باستانی خود برساند. اما در تحقق این وعدهء بزرگ تکیه دیگر آثار بهائی بر هوش و توانایی معنوی و ذاتی ایرانیان و فرهنگ غنی این کشور است.

On one hand you say you are in peace with Islam but in reality, your essential goals are intertwined with "Can you tell me what name goes here?".
Now tell me who made the Haifa temple so beautiful?

I'm all for freedom of religion but not freedom of treason and aggression on other people's ideaology.

Re: Faryam

Hi Faryam,
Thank you for taking your time;
I understand that it's very hard to and in now way I meant to wrap up the subject in this Media - It is just impractical.

I was more interested in historical, political and formation of Baha'i belief.
<<<<>>>
There's always room for justifying any non-scientific phenomena why and how things happened in the past. The reason is the intentions are hidden and can not be verified independently.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For example, I can tell you that I predicted the disintegration of USSR 10 years before it happens. Will you believe me? Will it make me a messenger or someone who is contact with God?
Most of the points you explained about Baha'i belief are what Islam says. In the meantime, you say that Baha'i accepts all the religions including Islam! I don't knw what to make of this. If you believe in God and God said that Mohammad is the last messenger, then what's up!?! Did God change his mind, because God did not know what is going to happenafter Islam?

I hope God accept your belief, but to me, Baha'i belief is formed in protest to rule of Islam, a way to block expansion of Islam, just like the other ones ( I mentioned) formed in other Islamic countries. Try to read some history books and see the matter in a broader context.

In Response to :HosseinAli Khan

Faryarm: I will try to answer as best i can:you asked: 

i. I would love to hear you story on how Bahai was formed, specifically it's origins and relation to Sheikhieh and Babieh movements as well as concurrent Ahmaddieh, Ghadiani and Wahabi movements.

I refer you to this comprehenive talk and radio interview by a Non-Bahai source.Here are the urls to two audio files by Bahram Chubineh, the Iranian historian and scholar, on the Bab and the foundations of the Babi Religion, Many of your questions will be answered.

Part 1 

دکتر بهرام چوبینه - جنبش بابیه - بخش  

//www.newnegah.org/audio/Choubineh-30-07-2005-Babieh-1.mp3

Part 2 دکتر بهرام چوبینه - جنبش بابیه - بخش 

//www.newnegah.org/audio/Choubineh-30-07-2005-Babieh-2.mp3 

You asked:

Rituals I refer to how you pray, fast, marriage rules and how these things are ever changing. Don't you think that massive variation in principiles and rules are the reason more and more Bahai's are loosing their faith?

Answer: Prayer in the Bahai Faith is a totally personal affair; we have no clergy to lead u to prayer , nor do we have congregational prayer; the only exception is Prayer as one is being buried.

We have no ritual, especially in marriage; No ritual whatsoever; only supplication to God to unite two hearts, as we believe marriage between a Man AND A WOMAN is a spiritual bond. The Bahai Marriage Vow is: "We Will All verily abide by the Will of God".

Bahai Laws with regard to all you mention was given for all mankind and have not changed since Baha'u'llah gave them; we believe when God sees fit, another messenger from God will bring new social laws as conditions change in the future; as we believe Religion is progressive as is Guidance from above.

You say:Don't you think that massive variation in principiles and rules are the reason more and more Bahai's are loosing their faith?

Answer: where do you get all this...there are no variations... and If Bahais were losing their faith, we would not be having this exchange...

You state:

Please don't tell me that there was no politicians in Shah's regime? Please don't tell me that your presence in in Israel is a coincidence and has nothing to do withpolitics. please don't tell me that Hosseinali's trips and dealings with European powers were all non-political dealings?!?

ANSWER: who are you referring to?  those like hoveyda,whose father had once been a Bahai, but expelled due to his political ambitions. Please Note that it was Hoveyda who first passed the law in iran during Shah's time to expel Bahais from Govt positions and only Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians and Moslems were eligible). He did all jhe cood to distance himself from being called a Bahai. Again, just because someone is born to a Bahai family, it does not make him a Bahai; unless he decides to declare himself one and humbly serve society without Ego or self interest.

There were in the previous regime Bahais who served admirably as public servants , not as politicians, but as people of honour and integrity who were known as not having any political ambition; they were doctors, engineers, scholars, and military , like General Khademi who was the  Genius behind modernising  IRAN AIR in the 60s and 70s.

with respect, if you start reading history using scholarly and authentic sources and stop listening to uninformed nonsense, you will begin to get to to truth of the matter.

A with  your last statement:   Please don't tell me that there was no politicians in Shah's regime? Please don't tell me that your presence in in Israel is a coincidence and has nothing to do withpolitics. please don't tell me that Hosseinali's trips and dealings with European powers were all non-political dealings?!

Answer: Here is a good example where your lack of knowledge of Bahai history and its central figures causes you to ask such absurd questions...

I think you are refering to the eldest son of Baha'u'llah , Abdul-Baha who once freed at age 68, travelled to the west in 1911 and 1912; his main mission to spread the message of peace f the new universal faith, and to warn them against an upcoming world war; He actually prophesied the Great War in Europe. Abdul-Baha was only 8 when his family  was marched under armed guard out of Iran in the middle of winter 0f 1852.  

So Baha'u'llah and His family were forced to leave Iran; this was no trip  They were given to the hands of the Ottoman turks, who sent them to the Penal colony of Akka, where he died in 1892. Again, PLEASE READ something before you make these pathetic statements...Baha'u'llah made it a point to avoid and ignore politicians ;He had no interest in power; as hiswriting reveal;  in fact when he was sent to Constantinople (ISTANBUL) on HIS way  to another confinement, he went against the custom of the day to pay any attention or respect to the local rulers. He always stated that his only mission was to appeal to human heart.

some references; //info.bahai.org/article-1-3-2-2.html

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'u'lláh

I sincerely hope that you will take the time and do some serious reading and hopefully become  better informed and in turn enlighten those who for so have pulled the "wool" over your eyes.

I Believe one day the people of Iran will wake up from their deep sleep and recognize the Bahai principles as  the basis for enlightenment, Unity and regeneration of our beloved people and land.

Finally, since you wrongly assumed that Baha'u'llah met with a lot of westerners; well, the only westerener he ever met was Prof.Edward Browne of Cambridge University who went to visit Baha'u'llah whie he was under house arrest under the Farman of the Sultan of Turkey.

The distinguished orientalist, the late Professor Edward G. Browne, of the University of Cambridge, visited Bah�'u'll�h at Bahj� in the year 1890, and recorded his impressions as follows: -

"... my conductor paused for a moment while I removed my shoes. Then, with a quick movement of the hand, he withdrew, and, as I passed, replaced the curtain; and I found myself in a large apartment, along the upper end of which ran a low divan, while on the side opposite to the door were placed two or three chairs. Though I dimly suspected whither I was going and whom I was to behold (for no distinct intimation had been given to me), a second or two elapsed ere, with a throb of wonder and awe, I became definitely conscious that the room was not untenanted. In the corner where the divan met the wall sat a wondrous and venerable figure, crowned with a felt head-dress of the kind called 1taj1 by dervishes (but of unusual height and make), round the base of which was wound a small white turban. The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow; while the deep lines on the forehead and face implied an age which the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie. No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!    A mild dignified voice bade me be seated, and then continued: -- "Praise be to God that thou has attained! ... Thou has come to see a prisoner and an exile. ... We desire but the good of the world and happiness of the nations; yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment. ... That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled -- what harm is there in this? ... Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the `Most Great Peace' shall come. ... Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold? ... Yet do we see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind. ... These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family. ... Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. ..."   

Such, so far as I can recall them, were the words which, besides many others, I heard from Beha. Let those who read them consider well with themselves whether such doctrines merit death and bonds, and whether the world is more likely gain or lose by their diffusion." 

In Response to :HosseinAli Khan

Faryarm: I will try to answer as best i can:you asked: 

i. I would love to hear you story on how Bahai was formed, specifically it's origins and relation to Sheikhieh and Babieh movements as well as concurrent Ahmaddieh, Ghadiani and Wahabi movements.

I refer you to this comprehenive talk and radio interview by a Non-Bahai source.Here are the urls to two audio files by Bahram Chubineh, the Iranian historian and scholar, on the Bab and the foundations of the Babi Religion, Many of your questions will be answered.

Part 1 

دکتر بهرام چوبینه - جنبش بابیه - بخش  

//www.newnegah.org/audio/Choubineh-30-07-2005-Babieh-1.mp3

Part 2 دکتر بهرام چوبینه - جنبش بابیه - بخش 

//www.newnegah.org/audio/Choubineh-30-07-2005-Babieh-2.mp3 

You asked:

Rituals I refer to how you pray, fast, marriage rules and how these things are ever changing. Don't you think that massive variation in principiles and rules are the reason more and more Bahai's are loosing their faith?

Answer: Prayer in the Bahai Faith is a totally personal affair; we have no clergy to lead u to prayer , nor do we have congregational prayer; the only exception is Prayer as one is being buried.

We have no ritual, especially in marriage; No ritual whatsoever; only supplication to God to unite two hearts, as we believe marriage between a Man AND A WOMAN is a spiritual bond. The Bahai Marriage Vow is: "We Will All verily abide by the Will of God".

Bahai Laws with regard to all you mention was given for all mankind and have not changed since Baha'u'llah gave them; we believe when God sees fit, another messenger from God will bring new social laws as conditions change in the future; as we believe Religion is progressive as is Guidance from above.

You say:Don't you think that massive variation in principiles and rules are the reason more and more Bahai's are loosing their faith?

Answer: where do you get all this...there are no variations... and If Bahais were losing their faith, we would not be having this exchange...

You state:

Please don't tell me that there was no politicians in Shah's regime? Please don't tell me that your presence in in Israel is a coincidence and has nothing to do withpolitics. please don't tell me that Hosseinali's trips and dealings with European powers were all non-political dealings?!?

ANSWER: who are you referring to?  those like hoveyda,whose father had once been a Bahai, but expelled due to his political ambitions. Please Note that it was Hoveyda who first passed the law in iran during Shah's time to expel Bahais from Govt positions and only Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians and Moslems were eligible). He did all jhe cood to distance himself from being called a Bahai. Again, just because someone is born to a Bahai family, it does not make him a Bahai; unless he decides to declare himself one and humbly serve society without Ego or self interest.

There were in the previous regime Bahais who served admirably as public servants , not as politicians, but as people of honour and integrity who were known as not having any political ambition; they were doctors, engineers, scholars, and military , like General Khademi who was the  Genius behind modernising  IRAN AIR in the 60s and 70s.

with respect, if you start reading history using scholarly and authentic sources and stop listening to uninformed nonsense, you will begin to get to to truth of the matter.

A with  your last statement:   Please don't tell me that there was no politicians in Shah's regime? Please don't tell me that your presence in in Israel is a coincidence and has nothing to do withpolitics. please don't tell me that Hosseinali's trips and dealings with European powers were all non-political dealings?!

Answer: Here is a good example where your lack of knowledge of Bahai history and its central figures causes you to ask such absurd questions...

I think you are refering to the eldest son of Baha'u'llah , Abdul-Baha who once freed at age 68, travelled to the west in 1911 and 1912; his main mission to spread the message of peace f the new universal faith, and to warn them against an upcoming world war; He actually prophesied the Great War in Europe. Abdul-Baha was only 8 when his family  was marched under armed guard out of Iran in the middle of winter 0f 1852.  

So Baha'u'llah and His family were forced to leave Iran; this was no trip  They were given to the hands of the Ottoman turks, who sent them to the Penal colony of Akka, where he died in 1892. Again, PLEASE READ something before you make these pathetic statements...Baha'u'llah made it a point to avoid and ignore politicians ;He had no interest in power; as hiswriting reveal;  in fact when he was sent to Constantinople (ISTANBUL) on HIS way  to another confinement, he went against the custom of the day to pay any attention or respect to the local rulers. He always stated that his only mission was to appeal to human heart.

some references; //info.bahai.org/article-1-3-2-2.html

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'u'lláh

I sincerely hope that you will take the time and do some serious reading and hopefully become  better informed and in turn enlighten those who for so have pulled the "wool" over your eyes.

I Believe one day the people of Iran will wake up from their deep sleep and recognize the Bahai principles as  the basis for enlightenment, Unity and regeneration of our beloved people and land.

Finally, since you wrongly assumed that Baha'u'llah met with a lot of westerners; well, the only westerener he ever met was Prof.Edward Browne of Cambridge University who went to visit Baha'u'llah whie he was under house arrest under the Farman of the Sultan of Turkey.

The distinguished orientalist, the late Professor Edward G. Browne, of the University of Cambridge, visited Bah�'u'll�h at Bahj� in the year 1890, and recorded his impressions as follows: -

"... my conductor paused for a moment while I removed my shoes. Then, with a quick movement of the hand, he withdrew, and, as I passed, replaced the curtain; and I found myself in a large apartment, along the upper end of which ran a low divan, while on the side opposite to the door were placed two or three chairs. Though I dimly suspected whither I was going and whom I was to behold (for no distinct intimation had been given to me), a second or two elapsed ere, with a throb of wonder and awe, I became definitely conscious that the room was not untenanted. In the corner where the divan met the wall sat a wondrous and venerable figure, crowned with a felt head-dress of the kind called 1taj1 by dervishes (but of unusual height and make), round the base of which was wound a small white turban. The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow; while the deep lines on the forehead and face implied an age which the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie. No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!    A mild dignified voice bade me be seated, and then continued: -- "Praise be to God that thou has attained! ... Thou has come to see a prisoner and an exile. ... We desire but the good of the world and happiness of the nations; yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment. ... That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled -- what harm is there in this? ... Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the `Most Great Peace' shall come. ... Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold? ... Yet do we see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind. ... These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family. ... Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. ..."   

Such, so far as I can recall them, were the words which, besides many others, I heard from Beha. Let those who read them consider well with themselves whether such doctrines merit death and bonds, and whether the world is more likely gain or lose by their diffusion." 

thank you

dear Rosie,

thank you for your note. I was to some extent aware of the influence of Zorasterian religion on Judaism and in particular Mithraism on the Roman Culture.

I was simply pointing to the fact that most of the initial Christians were of Jewish faith and Chirst was fulfuling the prophecies of Judaism for those initial believers. Similar to Baha'i faith whose most initial believers were Moslim and its litreture has numerous Islamic references.

but thank you for your comment and more details on relationship between all those great religions. very interesting.
regards
Ramin

by the way my wife is half Jewish and half Zorasterian. Her grand parents converted to Baha'i faith about 60 years ago in Iran. Unusual combination normally, but not very uncommon amongst baha'is.

Clarification for Ramin

Buddhism did come out of Hinduism but Christianity did not come out of Judaism.  Christianity emerged from a complex synchretism of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Mithraism, and the various Gnosticisms that had emerged in the Hellenistic world since the time of Alexander. An enormous part of the foundations of Chrisitianity is actually Persian in origin--the Zoroastrian and the Mithraic.  It also has to be stressed that even the Judaic component of Christianity had already been Persianized since the Achaemenids.  And the Gnostic elements, too, those probably owe much of their existence to the Persians, both before Alexander and after, since the Parthians were to some extent Hellenes. Otherwise it is hard to find an explanation for the flourishing of the dualistic world view of Gnosticism before the time of Christ, since it had no other European or Middle Eastern precedent.

Thanks for your post on the Bahai.
Robin Goldsmith

Please investigate

Dear Mr Hosseinali,

Your assertions regarding the history of The Baha'i Faith need clarification and from your comments I feel that you are fair minded and not purely prejudiced, so I hope this brief introduction and your own independent investigation will answer some of your questions.

i. No religion appears from vacuum, all have their origin in the historical and cultural and religious surroundings. Same way that Buddhism has its origins in Hinduism, Christianity in Judaism and also you see the great similarities between Islam and the Jewish faith, Baha’i faith was born within the Islamic Faith, in particular many of the very first adherents were Sheikhies. (a branch of Shia Islam that put greater emphasis on spiritual interpretation of Islamic teachings and promoted the idea of imminent return of 12th imam in mid 19th century.) The Baha’i faith grew from this background to be an independent religion. (cf. Christianity and Jewish faith or Buddhism and Hinduism.)
ii. There has been numerous accusations that Baha’i faith was created by the Russians or the British, and also that we are spies for Russia, England and later Israel and America, or all of the above at the same time ( we appear to be totally confused about who created us and who we should spy for!!!). Have we , you or any body else has ever seen ONE PEICE OF EVIDENCE to confirm any of it? Please produce one or stop this non-sense! How is it the Baha’is that were killed by the current Iranian government for the crime of spying for Israel would be released immediately if they recanted their faith? They were not spies anymore?!
iii. Baha’i faith does not pass down the generations, just because you are born in a Baha’i family you do not become a Baha'i, you have to confirm your belief when you have reached adulthood ( 15 years or more). There were some politician at the time of the Shah who were of Baha’i families but they themselves were not Baha’is. We do not get involved in party politics, simple example is that no Baha'i became a member of Rastakhiz party ( Shah's party before revolution) which was compulsory and many Baha'is lost their jobs because of it.
iv. Baha’u’llah ( Mirza Hussein Ali ) was a prisoner and exile from 1852 in Tehran until He died in 1892 in Akka, Israel. A prisoner of Islamic states of Turkey and Persia, many years before formation of Israel. NOTHING TO DO WITH TODAY’S POLITICS. He did not have any European trips, had no dealings with European powers except the letters he wrote to the Kings of Europe, chastising them for their ever expanding armaments and predicting their down fall. All that is available on the internet, just google it! I hope that explains our presence in today’s Israel.
v. People join and leave the Baha'i Faith freely ( a sign that we are not a cult), we certainly do not say that a person leaving our Faith should be killed as it is the practice in many Islamic countries, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. Our numbers are increasing and in some countries it about 5% of population. out Prayers and fast and marriage ceremony have not changed and are similar to other religions.
vi. So if you are fair-minded, please simply do a little research on the internet, story of formation of Baha’i faith is too long for this forum, but is freely available from many independent sources. And please back your assertions with evidence, even if it is just a web site address.
Regards
Ramin
PS I have feeling I am talking to our friend Sha'er!

Re: Faryam

Well, you obviously disagreed with or ignored my take on the subject.
i. I would love to hear you story on how Bahai was formed, specifically it's origins and relation to Sheikhieh and Babieh movements as well as concurrent Ahmaddieh, Ghadiani and Wahabi movements.
ii. Rituals I refer to how you pray, fast, marriage rules and how these things are ever changing. Don't you think that massive variation in principiles and rules are the reason more and more Bahai's are loosing their faith?

iii. Please don't tell me that there was no politicians in Shah's regime? Please don't tell me that your presence in in Israel is a coincidence and has nothing to do withpolitics. please don't tell me that Hosseinali's trips and dealings with European powers were all non-political dealings?!?

I would love to hear your take on the above.
All the opinions are for enlightenment and no disrespect to individual faiths and belief is intended.

Hosseinali KHAN..WHERE IS THE DECEPTION? PROVE YOUR POINT

YOU SAY: There's two faces to Bahai:
1. Very peaceful, progressive, non-political stance on surface;

2. Very deceiving, WHERE IS THE DECEPTION AND WHY DECIEVE?

strange rituals, WHAT RITUALS ? THEY DONT HAVE ANY..

political tool in heart; PLEASE SHOW US THIS POLITICAL TOOL..WHEN BAHAIS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO POLITICAL REPRESENTATION OR INVOLVEMENT IN ANY POLITICAL ARENA WHETHER BEFORE OR NOW...

I think things make more sense when you consider this phenomena in it's historical context.

PLEASE SHOW US IN REAL TERMS THIS PHENOMENA AND ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT...AND ...PLEASE DONT USE THE NOW COMMONLY DISPROVED NONSENSE ...SHOW US ANY REAL PROOF .. 

Two Faces of Religions

These two faces exist in every religion.  In my experience among Iranians, Zoroastrians have either been my WORST most INTOLERANT attackers, accusing me of the most terrible things to discredit me, just because they don't like a non-Iranian talking about Mazdaism; OR they have been my most ardent defenders, championing my interpretation of the meaning of the Light as something older, far older, than Zoroaster himself....

The same can be said of the militant Jihadists in Islam versus those who seek the INNER Jihad, the struggle of the human heart for mastery over itself.

And so it goes.
That is why no followers of any religion should be discriminated against. Every religion is what the individual believer makes of it, no less and no more.
Robin Goldsmith

My understanding, Bahai is

My understanding, Bahai is the latter stage of what was started as Sheikhieh which was eveolved into Babieh. It was a protest to the organized rule of Akhoonds. It started in the devasated society during ghajar era when the country was in economic, health and war turmoil. This is the era that we lost 1/2 of iran to Russia and Afghanistan was separated. The ground was ripe for some new ideas and fathali shah was in favor with Sheikhs to lessen the grip of Akhoonds on people. Ghajar used Sheikhs to give them religious legitimace and owerpower Akhoonds popular base. Ghajar was also naive politicians and fascinated by European masters (just like Shah). British discovered Hosseinali (the prophet!?!) and promoted his ideas to sway away the ghajars away from Russia. It's an amazing set of ideas which is based originally on the idea of 12th imam of shia and then was face lifted by British to what we know now as Bahai. Interestingly, British were doing the same thing in Saudi Arabia (Wahabi), India (Ahmaddieh) and Pakistan (Ghadiani) at the same time. There is basically no logic in the message and if it was not face-lifted, it would be considered the most backward idealogy.

There's two faces to Bahai:
1. Very peaceful, progressive, non-political stance on surface;
2. Very deceiving, strange rituals, political tool in heart;

I think things make more sense when you consider this phenomena in it's historical context.

Baha'u'llah's Proof is His Writings & Relevance to Today!

Baha'u'llah's Proof is His Writings and relevance to our times..and.. judging by your "wealth"of knowledge as illustrated by your example of comparison of Morman with Bahais..is a sure indiaction

that you have neither the capacity or the ability to even read Baha'u'lah writings. What is the basis of your comparison? Do you even know the meaning of a Cult? Cults almost always are led by ONE charismatic religious leader...Bahais Don't even have A LEADER...in fact they don't even have a professional clergy like a Mullah, minister etc etc...they are led by their PERSONAL love and feeling for God; but I guess your basic knowledge doesn't go that far...

What you don't comprehend is the day to day meaning this new Revelation from God has brought to people everywhere. You are probably one of those  who is shocked to hear that most Bahais in the world are not Iranian; that the Revelation given to Baha'u'llah is one that people of every faith is longing for; that it is the fulfilment of all Holy books and scriptures.

All it takes, is a "seeing EYE" or if i am not wrong, Cheshme Basseer? 

For the time you take to insult Bahais, why not spend an honest moment and  actually ead a few lines and try to coprehend why millions of people around the world find peace and contentment in this Message; not to mention many of your own Islamic tradition who were the very first followers of The Bab and Baha'u'llah; some of the most illustrious Islamic Divines of their time, revered by the King and respected by the People.

If you could and comprehed , then you would understand why so many of the early Babis and Bahais were Shia Scholars, amongst them, Muhammad Shah Qajar's Trusted Religious envoy who was sent to investigate The Bab's claim; He not only became a Babi but in turn gave his Life ...His name was Siyyid Yahya Darabi .In course of thirty-five generations, the lineage of Siyyid Yahya Vahid Darabi can be traced back to its progenitor, the seventh Shi`i Imam, Musa ibn Ja`far, and from there to Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Household. The most detailed genealogy of this family is provided by Siyyid Muhammad-`Ali Ruzati – one of the ablest modern Shi`i scholars in the school of Isfahan:[5]

Darabi' story might illustrate to you how the Kings most trusted and respected religious envoy accepted The new revelation as fulfilment of Quran prophecy:

As" the message of the Bab was spreading fast, and with the event in that mosque, the king, Muhammad Shah, became interested to investigate the Cause of the young Siyyid `Ali-Muhammad, now only twenty-six years old, a delicate man with gentle voice and fair complexion.

Muhammad Shah chose Siyyid Yahya Darabi, who was residing in Tehran, to go to Shiraz to investigate the Cause of the Bab because his erudition was unmatched. He was known to have memorized no less than thirty thousand traditions of Islam. On the way to Shiraz, he planned the approach. With his vast knowledge, he was confident that he could easily overcome the Bab in argument and could induce Him to retract His claim. He arrived in Shiraz as the guest of no less a person than the governor himself, who felt honored hosting such a distinguished agent of the king.

Three interviews with the Bab were arranged to take place at His uncle's home. You can well imagine the temporary joy of the governor and the excitement in his mansion, soon to be shattered. Before the first interview, an old friend of Siyyid Yahya, by the title of 'Azim, meaning Great, who was a follower of the Bab, told Siyyid Yahya, "Be most considerate and respectful in your visits or you might regret it the rest of your life."

At the first session the interview lasted about two hours. Siyyid Yahya brought out one abstruse point after another from the Qur'an, traditions, and the work of the learned. The Bab let him present all of his points, and then one by one, gave brief but convincing answers to each. This session excited both admiration and humility in Siyyid Yahya. In the course of the second interview, Siyyid Yahya, to his amazement, discovered that he had forgotten all of his important questions, so he conversed about unrelated subjects. Th his surprise, he found that the Bab was answering the questions he had momentarily forgotten. Arrogance had not vanished yet. He told himself this might have been a mere coincidence. But he was too agitated to collect his thoughts so he asked to be excused. Don't you wish you could hear what he reported to the governor, so anxiously waiting for his conquest.

For the third and final interview, he resolved that in his heart he would request a oammentary on Suriy-i-Kawthar, a chapter from the Qur'an, without breathing a word. Should the Bab reveal it without being asked in a manner superior to other commentaries, then he would accept the divine character of His Cause. He himself states, "As soon as I was ushered into His presence, a sense of fear suddenly seized me and my limbs began to quiver. I had never experienced the slightest trace of timidity while in the presence of the king. I could hardly remain standing on my feet. The Bab, noticing my condition, came towards me and helped me to be seated next to Him. The Bab said, 'Ask whatever is your heart's desire.' I was speechless and powerless to respond. He gazed at me and said, 'Should I reveal a commentary on the chapter of Kawthar would you recognize My Cause as divine?' Tears flowed from my eyes as I heard Him utter those words. He requested His uncle to bring his pen-case and some paper. The speed of His writing and the soft and gentle murmur of His voice bewildered me. He did not pause until the whole commentary was finished.

For three nights Siyyid Yahya did not return to the governor's house. He stayed as the guest of the Bab's uncle. As instructed by the Bab, with the help of a scribe, they transcribed and verified every part of that commentary and found it correct. When he returned to the anxious but suspicious governor, he was impatiently questioned about his possible conversion, to which he replied, "No one but God, Who alone can change the hearts of men, is able to captivate the heart of Siyyid Yahya and whoever ensnares his heart is of God."

 Siyyid Yahya became a devoted follower with the title of Vahid, meaning the Unique One, conferred upon him by the Bab. The curtain falls, but Siyyid Yahya, behind the scenes, became one of the greatest promoters of the Faith of the Bab until in another valiant act in Nayriz, he offered'up his life only ten days before his Master, to join Him eternally.

It is interesting to know that many eminent and uncorrupted divines at the time of the Bab embraced His Cause, a Cause whose principles were quite revolutionary in nature. The Bab's severe laws were meant to undermine the faumdations of Shi'ih orthodoxy and to clear the way for the coming of Baha'u'llah. As stated by Himself, His laws were provisional and dependent on acceptance of Baha'u'llah to Whom He was the Gate. As Muslims expected the Qa'im to appear with a sword in his hand, the sword of the Bab was His Cause separating good from evil, and as the Guardian of the Bahai faith stated, "to administer a sudden and fatal blow to obsolete and corrupt institutions." 

Dear Shaer, with respect...if you respond do so without "SHERROVERR"

Read JUST ONE  page of authentic Bahai writings with an open and sincere heart  and God May open your "eyes" to the Truth. The Truth that is sadly obscured by the clouds of your ignorance...

.Now is'nt that Poetic ! 

so it is ok to torture?

It is interesting that you say "we have nobody else to blame but ourselves if we are persecuted, since what we say is sacrilege".

I suppose you are the judge of what is sacrilege and any body who disagrees can be tortured or executed.

Funny I always thought poets had gentle and sensitive souls!

But jokes aside, what you are saying is that if the Jews or Christians think that Islam is sacrilege, they should not be blamed for persecuting Moslems?!

And a couple of minor points:

Just because "you" said something "before", does not make it true, same way that writing short sentences with spelling mistakes does not make it a poem.

You can call me a friend but I don't think we are brothers!

Regards
Ramin

My Brother Ramin

Pain As Though Cometh forth From your Voice ..
Nevertheless ..
The issue At Hand ..
Is "NOT" Torture ..
...
My Brother,
As I Have said "Before" ..
"DO NOT" Prostitute Islam By Saying Sheikh Bahaollah "Fulfilled" Prophet Mohammad's Mission ..
...
As I Have Said Before,
"Bahai'ism" To "Islam", Is Like "Mormonism" To "Christianity" ..
Nothing But A "CULT" ..
...
Like I Have Said "Before" ..
Call Your Religion "Whatever" You Want ..
Name Your Religion "Anything" You Want ..
But Do Not Say That Your "Religion" Is A "FulFillment" Of Prophet Mohammad's Prophecy and Work ..
...
That's "Scarilege" ..
And If People "Persecute" You For That ..
You Have "No One" To Blame But Yourself ..
...
Ignorance Is "Not" Bliss ..
And as A "Bahai'i",
You should Know That "By Now" ..
...
Peace Be Upon "You" ..