RIGHTS

جنگ و دعوای بی حاصل.

برای این دو روز زندگی اینهمه جنگ و جدل و اینهمه گروه بندیها و طبقه بندی ها و گرفتاریها به نفع چه کسی میتواند باشد.  عوض اینکار ها  به علم و دانش و بیش و خرد بپردازید. بگذارید هر کس محبوب خیالی خود را هر طور که دوست دارد پرستش کند.  چرا میخواهید محبوب خیالی خود را به دیگران زو ر چپان کنید.  برچسب به دیگران زدن و هو کردن دیگران چه دردی را دوا میکند.   مگر اینهمه کشت و کشتار ها به نام دین هنوز کافی نیست که شمشیر ها را برای یک جنگ دیگر تیز میکنند.    به ندای مولوی گوش فرا دهید که گفت که ای بی خبران کجایید  کجایید     بیایید  بیایید محبوب در اینجا است بیایید.    بیایید.   این خدای نادیده   و توانمند احتیاج به کشت و کشتار شما ها برای دین خودش ندارد.  یهودی میگوید که مسیح دروغ است و میسحیان اشتباه میکنند .   مسیحی ها میگویند که مسلمانان و محمد دروغ است و آنان در راه اشتباه و در راه شیطان قدم میگذارند.  مسلمانان هم بنوبه خود همدیگر را قبول ندارند و هر مذهب و فرقه ای میگوید که من راست هستم و دیگران در اشتباه.   و بعضی از مسلمانان هم میگویند که باب دروغ است و دین قلابی دارد و بهمین ترتیب بابی ها و مسلمانان هم میگویند ما درست میگوییم و لی بهاییان دروغ میگویند.    بهمین ترتیب  گروه های سیاسی هم همدیگر را نفی میکنند و هیچ نوع تبادل افکار و یا گفتگویی در بین نیست..

من یک باربه خاطر داشتن فامیل بهایی  نیز بعنوان بهایی مورد غارت و گرفتاری توسط مثلا دوست مسلمان واقع شدم.  بعد هم باز بعنوان مسلمان این بار تروریست دوباره در آمریکا مورد بی مهری و ظلم واقع شدم.    و بالاخره به عنوان ایرانی خاور میانه ای مورد ظلم جدید قرار گرفتم.  

اکنون هم بحای دوستی و برادری و همکاری هنوز هم همان جنگ و دعوای سابق بر پاست .   اگر درست دقت کنید میبینید که یک میلیارد مسیحیان از نظر یهودیان دین قلابی دارند.   و یک میلیارد مسلمانان از نظر مسیحیان در راه اشتباه هستند.  و ....بقیه هم که بی دین و کافر هستند   پس چه کسی راست میگوید.   آیا کشته شدن صد ها میلیون انسان بنام دین هنوز هم کافی نیست که تفرقه بیاندازان هنوز هم در تلاش هستند که برای بازار یابی اسلحه های خود و مواد منفجره و مخدره خود قربانی های بیشتری بگیرند و این بار افراد عامی را نشانه رفته اند. 

درخت تو گر بار دانش بگیرد  بزیر آوری چرخ نیلوفری را.  گمراه کردن جوانان و قربانی کردن آنان  کاری شرافتمندانه نیست.   شست و شوی مغزی جوانان و ایجاد حس نفرت در آنان نیز کاری جوانمردانه  و انسانی نیست.   اگر واقعا طالب نیکی و خوبی هستید  به جوانان علم و دانش آموزش دهید و بگذارید که آنان در علم  و دانش و بینش و  ورزش و انسانیت پیشرو باشند  نه در جنگ و نفرت و آدم کشی و قتل و غارت.   برچسب های خود را بکنید  و همه را بعنوان انسان بنگرید. 

تفتیش عقاید را کنار بگذارید و به دیگران نیز امکان دفاع بدهید.  محبوت شما اگر خوب است آنرا به دیگران تحمیل نکیند.  دین و ملیت و نژار را سبب  گرفتاری و کشت و کشتار نکنید.   بگذارید که مردم در این دو روز زندگی در رفاه و آسایش بسر برند و نه در جنگ و بمباران ها.  آی سران دنیا خودخواهی و مال پرستی را کنار بگذارید و برای رفاه مردم محروم اقدام کنید و نه اینکه آنان را غارت نمایید.   که بنی آدم اعضای یکدیگرند که در آفرینش ز یک گوهرند.  درخت دوستی بر نشان که ثمر پر بها  دارد   نهال دشمنی برکن که رنج بیشمار آرد.    من سه سهم خود در این کار اقدام کرده ام.  ویک مدرسه شبانه روزی با امکانات کارو فعالیت در اورلاندو باز نموده ام و تا بحال نیز زیان آنرا پرداخته ام. 

Thanks for your objectivity

Thank you for your fairness, friend. This should explain, then, why I keep hammering away at this organization at great personal cost to myself.  

413

Nur

As someone who likes to be objective and fair, I am quite baffled as what to say. Some of the material you post, do make sense, such as the manner in which the Bahais argue, rationalize, and try to explain issues away. Personally, I don't like religions, and I believe they cause divisions amongst people. Particularly, from a social standpoint, which is central to Bahai philosophy, I can easily envision a dictatorship, like so many we had before.

Hard to believe or not, facts are facts...

1) 'Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari, Baha'i mubaligh extraordinairre and member of the National Spiritual Assembly of Iran until his death in the mid '70s, was a lifelong personal friend to Khomeini.

2) After the 1963 disturbances spearheaded by Khomeini against the Shah's White Revolution, the attorney who pleaded Khomeini out of a certain death sentence (or life imprisonment) and into exile from Iran, was a Baha'i attorney by the name of Shahgholi. 

3) The entirety of the original leadership of the Anjuman-i-Hojjatiya Zedde Baha'iyat (i.e. the Hojjatiya), not to mention Hojjat'ul-Islam Falsafi, i.e. the foremost pre-revolutionary enemies of the Baha'i organization, were imprisoned as counter-revolutionaries on the direct, explicit orders of Khomeini personally within the first year of the revolution.

4) During the topsy-turvy period of revolutionary turmoil, the release of two-thirds of the financial assets of the two major pre-revolutionary Baha'i shareholding companies administered by the NSA of Iran, i.e. Sherakat-i-Nawnahalan and Sherakat-i-Umana, were facilitated by the Islamic Revolutionary Council (showra-ye enqelab-i-eslami) headed by Khomeini and on his personal orders. Contrary to the official line of the Baha'i administration, the remainder of these liquidated assets ended up with Baha'i authorities overseas, presumably in Haifa, Israel, while a third was pocketed as a bribe and kickback by the Khomeinists.

5) While warrants for his arrest due to his pre-revolutionary mafiaso activities were outstanding, somehow Baha'i sangsari henchman, Hozhabr Yazdani, managed to buy his way out of a trial, a certain term in Evin (and possibly execution) and right out of Iran right under the provisional government's nose, together with the aforementioned assets of the shareholding companies just mentioned.

6) In the Spring/early summer of 1979, millionaire Habib Sabet made a secret trip to Iran right through Mehrabad airport. He was not accosted or harrassed by anyone. How is this even possible for an individual whose collusion and connection to the Pahlavi court is indisputable? 

7) Compared to the rhetoric and the power that Khomeini did have at his disposal, only 200 Baha'is ended up killed in the first five years of the revolution - and most of them due to corruptions and economic crimes committed under the Shah, not for being Baha'is -and a handful less incarcerated, out of a population the Baha'is claim to be between 100 to 200 thousand people (a loaded and exagerrated number, in any case). This, at the very same time that well over twice that number of people amongst leftists and opposition groups to the regime ended up executed by the Khomeinists.  Something like 100,000+ MKO/MEK members alone were killed by the regime. Khomeini could very well have unleashed a genocidal pogrom against the Baha'i community, but did not. He held his hand and pulled back at crucial moments! Why? Under careful scrutiny the facts say something else and the embellished propaganda and fictitious stories diffused by the Baha'is in the Western media simply does not add up. This community has been to some degree protected by the mullahs, whatever they say outside of Iran to the Western media and those gullible enough to believe them. Behind the scenes, these two estates talk to each other quite regularly, and have for a long time.

8) There are numerous wealthy Baha'i entrepreneurs in the Gulf countries, such as the Khojasteh family and similar, who maintain close, longstanding business relationships with key members of the regime, such as the family of Hashemi Rafsanjani. And there are a whole slew of wealthy Sa'udi Baha'is (pretending to be Muslims in the Kingdom) and acting as go-betweens for the House of Sa'ud and the mullocracy in Iran.

9) Then there are the reports that Robert Dreyfuss briefly cites in his book about the Baha'is funding the Khomeinists during key moments before the revolution.

I can go on and on and and on and on, but after Iran Contra and GWB's Weapons of Mass Deception, how can you uncritically believe what you are being told? 

Politics makes for rather strange bedfellows and reality is always often stranger than fiction. The issue here, which people seem to be confused about, is not about average, rank-and-file Baha'is. I am speaking of the Haifan Baha'i elite, its political apparatus and its leadership who have been sleeping with the devil for a very long time. The rank-and-file are completely oblivious to any of this, and are being made the cannon fodder of this leadership, not to mention that the leadership has gone out of its way for years to conceal even a whiff of this kind of information and its evidence from them.

But let me mention this, and let us see if he responds. There are outstanding accusations about the webmaster of this very site, Jahanshah Javid, of being at one time an unashamed supporter of the IRI. There are even extant pictures of JJ donning scruffy beard and looking like an archetypal hezbollahi standing with his chadori ex-wife. How is it that one day you are an unashamed supporter of the IRI and Khomeini's revolution and the next day you suddenly start beating your chest as loud as possible online for the plight of the Baha'is of Iran? I also have personal reasons for saying this because when Mr Jahanshah Javid and I were at the University of New Mexico together in the early '90s, and he was acting as an editor of the campus Daily Lobo, several of my own as well as the articles of other people critical of the Islamic republic were regularly being turned down for publication on his watch. Some of the MEK/MKO people there had even accused him of being in the pay of SAVAMA (the IRI's intelligence agency), although I didn't personally go quite that far as they (plus the MKO/MEK's own record is quite tainted and tarnished in other regards). But nevertheless this is an sore thumb still outstanding...

Withal, such are the traces of Bahai/mullocratic collusion which I happen to have concrete evidence for and Robert Dreyfuss substantially alludes to in his book. And BTW before anyone else hurls more accusations, I am ex-Bahai - and JJ knows it too.

Unfortunately once hype and manufactured consent grips the minds of many, it is impossible to even get them to consider the evidence, let alone to change their minds. Right now the Baha'i establishment has expended millions of dollars in advertising to try to get, at least, the Iranian community in exile in North America and Western Europe to think the Baha'i community are one-sidedly being targetted and are a completely victimized, aggrieved community in Iran. Such is not the case, the facts are far more complex, and those aggrieved and victimized are average, rank-and-file people and not the organization (tashkilat) that is deliberately trying to put them in harms way - trying to play a game of chicken with the regime, as it were - so it can then score contrived brownie points in the international press for its own longterm power-play interests and agendas.

Open your eyes and you will see for yourself that the truth is not what is being peddled and represented to you by the consensus reality of the mainstream media and the press, let alone the anecdotal stories of individuals completely oblivious to what is really going on behind the scenes!  It is not a pretty picture but it is the way it really is...

413

Nur

Your statements that Bahais supported Khomeini don't make any sense. I don't care what referance, and who wrote it. The Bahais under the Shah ruling enjoyed a lot of success, and had a relative good life. And I had friends who were Bahais, I never sensed that they liked or supported the revolution. Your post seems hard to believe.

All pro-Bahais & Bahais are agents of the British establishment!

 From
HOSTAGE TO KHOMEINI by Robert Dreyfuss (New Benjamin Franklin House: New York, 1980) pp.117-118 (Pdf pages 73-74)

//www.wlym.com/pdf/iclc/hostage.pdf

&

//www.archive.org/details/HostageToKhomeini

...Today the Bahai cult is hated in Iran, and is considered correctly
to be an arm of the British Crown. During the destabilization of the
Shah in 1978, it was widely reported that in several instances the
Bahai cult secretly funded the Khomeini Shi’ite movement. In part, the money would have flowed through the cult’s links to the same
international ‘human rights’ organizations, such as Amnesty
International, that originally sponsored the anti-Shah movement in
Iran. These movements also derive from the “one world” currents
associated with the Bahais since the early 1900s. (If any Iranians
have been misled on the question of the Bahais by the supposed
antipathy of Khomeini’s clique to the Bahais, it should be noted that
the Bahai cultists often deliberately encouraged anti-Bahai activities as camouflage)...

Also see pp. 115-116 (Pdf page 72)

p.s. Nima Hazini and Wahid Azal are the same person. FYI!

413

to AdibM

It seems this page is getting crowded with other people that who want to pick a fight with you. And of course the item is getting to old and moved to the second page of Iranian.com. usually in this case i do not continue posting because its not very productive. However out of respect for your last post i am going to reply.

"Some people of all backgrounds can certainly be two-faced, but since Baha'u'llah said the comment I would like to say he was not two-faced. I already explained earlier that that harsh statement he wrote was in the Kitab-i-Badi ... "

To me Bahaullah is no prophet so i totally understand when he acts like a ordinary man. he gets pissed at some people when they piss him off and says some bad words as he did. Now when bahai's come and tell me this guy is a messenger of god and he is above sin and he is here to spread love and all that super human properties of him then I wonder, how come those nasty words came out of his mouth? It doesnt fit. Your explanation doesn't explain why a man of principal (at least) can't hold to his own standard. Right when he gets angry is the time to show restrain and he couldn't. why? because he is a normal human being nothing more than that as you try to portray.

"However, I think one should realize that these laws and others were revealed in a religious paradigm."
What you call revealed I call repackaging. Because as I said before and you admitted there is no originality here its just putting it together and adding a divine connection.

"I don't know of any other major world religions that explicitly proclaim the necessity of world peace, the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, and the harmony of science and religion. For the first time, we have a religion whose very foundations rest upon the pillars of both spirituality and social issues on a global scale. "

There are many peace promoting religions and even pacifist religions that came long before Bahai faith. I think you need to do some homework there.

The elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty is too many words that achieve almost nothing. I have argued about this pillar and a few other ones of bahai faith before. The thing is compare it with a more meaning full teaching like the promotion of peace. This is guideline that a person, a family a group a society can subscribe to. A bunch of people can say we decide to not fight and establish friendly relationships with everyone else. But when you say the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty it doesn't have any economical implications. And the prove of that is the bahai society itself. I have seen extremely wealthy bahai's and very very poor bahai's. And please dont get me wrong I am 100% for social justice and distribution of wealth. But here the economists, scientist, philosophers have a lot more to say than your prophet.

"harmony of science and religion" is another one of those. No person can set such a harmony. Science and religion are two very separate realms. They hardly ever cross path. And when they do its usually science proving the religion wrong. I wonder what is happening in science regarding homosexuality because I remember reading passages from shoghi afandi not showing any love to homosexuals, if you know what i mean. heheh

So what you claim to be the first religion to fix the global issues is not capable of doing much. Which makes me wonder "HOW MANY TIMES DOES GOD GET IT WRONG UNTIL HE GETS IT RIGHT?"

"Divine connection tends to make things better, at least when the religion is still young. How often do you see Baha'is caught drug trafficking? ;)"

No it doesn't. There is still blood dripping from "Divine connections" sword. Drug trafficking is a symptom of social and economical problems not a lock of spirituality or "Divine Connection". The Afghan drug traffickers stop and pray on their way when taking shipments from Afghanistan to Iran.

"Try to see it through this lens: if one only has a sense of the social aspects and movements, such as compulsory education, then you only have that social side - there is no spirituality, no underlying concept of God and religious principles and/or incentives."

What is wrong with that? By the way cheating people into religion by promising incentives is so 3000year old.

" With the Baha'i Faith, however, one can take both of those lenses and make a nice pair of glasses out of them: there is a balance between requirements for the world and age in which we live as well as the optimal methods for nourishing and tending to one's soul. "

That's what YOU see because that's what you want to see. There is no such a picture in my world view and I am totally HAPPY :). And so are millions and millions of none other nonbelievers.

"A lot of social action across the globe takes place based on our teachings - see this article and the "related documents" on the right: "

No. A lot Bahai teachings are based on earlier work of other people. We already had talked about this issue of originality. Thus you can't really claim they are based on bahai teachings. A more accurate sentence would be "Some bahai's take part in social activities that they think its unique to bahai faith".

"Well they're not tyrannical or anything."
No they are not tyrannical. Its a young religion and it hasn't grown any teeth yet like other ones so it doesn't bite. Never the less it has a well established hierarchy of power, a chain of command that has the power to say who is a bahai's and who is not. But when there is enough power it could very well say who should be jailed because of criticizing them. We already have one of those in Iran and its ENOUGH.

And this is one of your responses to someone else that I found worthy of a comment
"You try to portray Western European countries as model nations worthy of emulation by others. Believe me, they are no heaven either! Check out some of these statistics:
* Crime rates: 7 of the top 10 are in Western Europe
* Suicide rates: check how many countries in the top 25 are from Eastern (mostly Godless) and Western Europe.
* Alcoholism: Check out Western Europe and (mostly Godless) Russia
* I bet their rates of prostitution (think window prostitution in Germany and the Netherlands) and human trafficking is also nothing to brag about."

Quoting statistics is good making the wrong concussion is bad. When they say "Countries with Highest Reported Crime Rates" It doesn't necessary mean that these countries have higher crime rate than other countries. It means their crimes get "REPORTED". They are civilized enough to understand their basic rights and their trust in the justice system encourages them to report it.

And here is stat from a very recent research which was reported in CNN: (The happiest nations)
//www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/07/02/nations.happi...

Most are secular countries whit a semi socialist system where everybody has a right. And not surprisingly mostly are seen in your "bad bad countries" list.

"I’m not trying to say that the entire region is a den of filth and corruption or anything like that. I’m simply attempting to weigh some of the positive (which you provided) with the negative. That’s a holistic approach, isn’t it? "

How about giving us examples of some religious countries? Some counter examples always helps to clarify your point doesn't it?

;)

Beautifully written

Beautifully written article... it is very inspirational and makes one think how long Iran is going to abuse human rights.

All anti-bahais are IRI Agents !

Orthodox Bahais, Azalis, Bayanis, Free Bahá'ís, Reform Bahá'ís, New History Society, Uniterian Bahais, Essence Bahais, BUPC Neil Chase, Joel B. Marangella, Heart of Baha'is - Jacques Soghomonian, Tarbiyat Bahais - Rex King, Followers of 5 Elders, Mirza Sohrab, Mason Remey, Naqizeen, Ruth White, Jamshed Mani, Fredrick Glaysher, John Carre, Nima Hazini, Wahid Azali

All these are IRI Agents and as per the Orders of beloved UHJ, Baha'is are supposed to be away from the ideas of these fellows. The existence of these people is a great danger to Humanity.

The Mazlum Nama'i & Crocodile Tears of Investigator

Let's see if you have an answer for this:

In Note W (Mirza Yahya  Subh-i-Azal) of his critical edition of A Travellers Narrative Written to Illustrate the Episode of the Bab (Cambridge: 1891), 2 volumes, citing Hasht Behesht, Browne says, "All prominent supporters of Subh-i-Azal who withstood Mirza Husayn Ali's claims were marked out for death, and in Baghdad Mulla Rajab Ali "Kahir" and his brother, Hajji Mirza Ahmad, Hajji Mirza Muhammad Reza, and several others fell one by one by the knife or bullet of the assassin" p.359. "As to the assassination of the three Ezelis, Aka Jan Bey, Hajji Seyyed Muhammad of Isfahan, and Mirza Riza-Kulli of Tafrish, by some of Beha's followers at Acre, there can, I fear, be but little doubt...the passage in the Kitab-i-Aqdas alluding (apparently) to Hajji Seyyed Muhammad's death...proves Beha'u'llah regarded this event with some complaisance" p.370.

See also,

S.G. Wilson BAHAISM AND RELIGIOUS ASSASSINATION Muslim World vol. 4, issue 4, 1914

Mona

you can tell from an Azali like NUR's actions and indecencies toward Baha’is and Baha’u’llah, what Baha'u'llah and the Baha’is had to go through with Azalies in those days. If Azal was what he has claimed to be, I wonder why only a few followers of him have left. Did Baha'is killed all of them (LOL)If NUR is trying to convert the Baha’is or anybody else into Azalis or at least trying to prove something, in my opinion, his approach is way off. He should be nice maybe the Baha’is respond to him. I am requesting NUR to be a little bit respectful may be the Baha’is would respond to his claims. How about that? Me as an independent investigator don't like him at all. I think he is an angry man which needs to control himself and comes down to earth a little and be civil. Keep posting garbage all over the place doesn’t work in my opinion. Right now our fellow Baha'is in Iran are suffering from IR injustice and I don't think NUR cares at all. This tells me that NUR is in fact an agent of IR trying to stir things up to justify their execution. The timing of NUR appearance in Iranian.com and at least 10 postings is highly coincidental. That’s what I think. Regards

Dear Adid Please Excuse NUR...

Dear Adib, please excuse this guy NUR... We Baha'is have very BIG HEARTS and we are taught to excuse the evil doers. Am I Right ?
Adib dear, please respond NUR, I am sure, many ignorant ones like me are awaiting your reply to NUR's Post.

Regarding AdibM's typical Bahai disengenuity

Dear Mona,

The only reason AdibM will not respond to me, is because he cannot respond and knows that in any fair historical and doctrinal debate, we Bayanis can bury them tens times over. However it is a typical tactic of professional Baha'i mubalighin (prosletyzers) to insult and overstep all boundaries of civil discourse with their interlocutors; and when they are responded to in kind, they start playing the victim. This is a well-worn tactic of Baha'i mazlum-nama'i/feigning victimhood while acting the predator. Respect and civility is a two-way street. The Haifan Bahais insist that they be respected and acted civil towards when they are not remotely prepared to offer the same to others. This is hypocrisy, and it is the sort of hypocrisy from Baha'is we Bayanis are quite well familiar with.

I'd challenge MrAdib or anyone else he would care to bring to the party to a public, no-holds barred debate refereed by impartial persons on all of these and other issues. They won't come. And they won't come because unless they are calling the shots personally and rigging the system to their own benefit, they know they don't stand a chance. If Bahram Moshiri would be willing to host a panel that he himself would referree fairly, I'd like to offer these people the opportunity once again for a televized debate.

Now I've offered  them substantial information with textual references here refuting their claims, and the only response is typical misdirection, i.e. the be-hashiyeh raftan.

As for wikipedia, it is not an objective source and has been denounced repeatedly amongst academics, specialists and laypeople alike. As elsewhere, the Haifan Baha'is have rigged the system over there and packed it with their own people who regularly exclude by using tactics of coercion any persons submitting information that contradicts their official propaganda.

413

To Mona Cool

Dear Mona,

The reason you don't see me respond or react to posts by NUR is because he has repeatedly overstepped the boundaries of respect and decency towards Baha'is, their belief systems, and the central figures of our Faith (an example being the title of his response addressed to me).

I seek dialogue with people who can maintain civility in their discourse while diagreeing with me. I don't currently see those traits in NUR.

Best wishes,
Adib 

To AdibM dear...

Dear Adib your reply to NUR is very important. Presently you are the only knowledgeable Baha'i here, i think so :-). I wait for your reply to NUR. Loves

To Who

Dear Who,

First you come up with your own personal definition of terms like clergy and when I try to distinguish myself from that definition, I apparently haven’t disproved anything. If that’s the case, I suggest you visit some online dictionaries and change their definition of the term clergy from “the group or body of ordained persons in a religion, as distinguished from the laity” to yours (any Bahá’í who defends their Faith or shares their teachings with others). Wouldn’t that make sense?

You call us a cult, I give you the link to a well-researched scholarly article (Vanderbilt University) that lists prominent features of a typical cult so you get a chance to compare the Bahá’í Faith to a scientific definition of a cult, and I guess we have to ignore that and, again, go with your definition. Again, I haven’t proved anything, right?

You call all religious people members of cults. By that definition, 6 out of 7 people on this planet are members of cults and humanity would have been better off without the likes of Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Buddha, and others like them. Before you start quoting religious war statistics (such as the Crusades), please be aware that ONE political war (WWII) which resulted in between 50-70 million casualties killed more people than ALL religious wars in history combined.

You call the Bahá’í Faith Orwellian. Here’s Wikipedia’s definition of Orwellian (if you don’t like this one, pick another one from a respected dictionary; I’m sure it won’t be too far off):

The adjective Orwellian describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Ok, let’s compare. The Bahá’ís believe humans – regardless of race, gender, nationality, ethnicity, religion (or lack thereof), etc. – are all members of the same family and should therefore acknowledge this unity and try to live in peace, harmony, and brotherhood. That sure does sound like the very epitome of “destructive to the welfare of a free society,” now doesn’t it? Furthermore, the Bahá’ís teach that religion is a matter of conscience. People should be free to choose a religion or NO religion. Even children born into Bahá’í families are obligated to choose whether they want to stay Bahá’ís (I am an example) or leave when they become adults. That’s the very definition of “controlling” isn’t it? Should I go on?

I guess again, we have to take your definition of Orwellian over Wikipedia’s (which you are free to peruse) or I haven’t disproved anything, right?

You state that if our “organization” came to exclusive power anywhere, you could only “imagine total dictatorship” under its rule; again, a claim with no evidence to back it up. I guess what you’re looking at here is either the Catholic Church and its theocracy or the IRI’s theocracy and, by association and conjecture, assume that any religious leadership that becomes dominant automatically will force its will and teachings on “non-believers” and begins persecuting the followers of other religions or no religion at all. That’s not only a leap in logic but also stereotyping. If you had studied the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, you would know that there’s never an instance in his teachings where he encourages (let alone instructs) of imposing our will, our religion, or our teachings on anyone or any group. That’s why people have always been completely free to join or leave the Bahá’í Faith at any time. 

You again use stereotypes by lumping six million Bahá’ís into your own convenient definition of a Bahá’í (dishonest, manipulating, and calculating) and we have to accept your definition? Your characterization of all “Bahá’ís” (that’s what generalized statements like yours does) as dishonest, manipulating, and calculating is as inaccurate a Bahá’í claiming there are no dishonest, manipulating, or calculating Bahá’ís on the planet. Of course there are! But if they manifest those characteristics, they are Bahá’ís in name and have not understood (and thus are not practicing) the teachings of their own Faith.

You try to portray Western European countries as model nations worthy of emulation by others. Believe me, they are no heaven either! Check out some of these statistics:  

* Crime rates: 7 of the top 10 are in Western Europe

* Suicide rates: check how many countries in the top 25 are from Eastern (mostly Godless) and Western Europe.

* Alcoholism: Check out Western Europe and (mostly Godless) Russia

* I bet their rates of prostitution (think window prostitution in Germany and the Netherlands) and human trafficking is also nothing to brag about.

I’m not trying to say that the entire region is a den of filth and corruption or anything like that. I’m simply attempting to weigh some of the positive (which you provided) with the negative. That’s a holistic approach, isn’t it?

You give the example of the IRI and wonder why after this fiasco, Iranians or anyone should consider the Bahá’í Faith or any other religion. So, again, we have to go with your reductionist definition of religion as “The Islamic Republic Theocracy of Khomeini” forgetting that true Islám made significant contributions to human civilization and modern sciences.

At the risk of being called an akhund (using your definition), I’d like to end with a suggestion (not a lecture or sermon!). If you have never studied anything objective about this Faith, I recommend you spend 5 minutes online. Go to Wikipedia or any independent, objective source and see what this Faith is all about. Better yet, go to the source (Bahá’u’lláh’s writings) and see what kinds of things he teaches about love, peace, unity, and brotherhood of man. Even if this is a total waste of your time, in those five minutes, some of the misconceptions you have about the person and his teachings may be dissipated. That’s all.

Best wishes to you,
Adib

to AdibM

Have you heard the saying, "talking a lot, but saying a little", and as in here, you couldn't disprove anything I had to say. I know you are a very bright young man , but you're grown to this mentality and cannot help yourself. Your whole organization, if it were ever in sole power anywhere, I could only imagine total dictatorship under it's rule.

And you keep saying religion is good for guidance, and I ask you to take a look at most western European countries, who happen to be the least religious people. They also enjoy high standards of living, low crime rate, democracy, high status of women and many other good indices of what generally people consider good values.

Now, after Iran and for that matter, any country who had suffered under severe religious ruling , why is it smart to explore another religion? What possible cure does it provide, except the delay of reaching the beacon of getting rid of all religious nonsense. I hope one day, you break the shell around you, and start understanding how Orwellian your religion is.

The Bahais don't think of themselves as dishonest, because, they rationalize their deeds. However, to an outsider, they sure are. They are calculating, and manipulating. They do it kinda agreeably, so a lot of folks don't realize it at first, but through repeated exposure, one eventually gets their tactics.

The disengenuous & murderous Husayn 'Ali Nuri

 AdibM said:

"the Kitab-i-Badi addressed to two disingenuous Azalis who spent most of their time misrepresenting Baha'u'llah and his Faith"

Actually, it is specifically addressed to one person, Mirza Mihdi Gilani, who subsequently the Baha'is attempted to kill; and only by secondary implication is it addressed to two other persons as well, viz Siraj and Qahir - i.e. the two brothers to the temporary wife of the Primal Point (whose condition your prophet laments with one side of his mouth in one place and then condemns as a slut in the Kitab-i-Badi' with the other): the two brothers who were also Witnesses (shahidayn) of the Bayan appointed by Subh-i-Azal as well as being second tier Letters of the Living to the Primal Point - both of whom were subsequently murdered in cold blood on your prophet's explicit orders: one in Baghdad, the other in Edirne.

And far as misrepresentation goes: the misrepresenting is all yours and that of your hokey prophet's, especially since the treatise of Mirza Mihdi Gilani which prompted the writing of the Kitab-i-Badi' as a response is still extant. In the original treatise Gilani meticously and poignantly argues the complete doctrinal spuriousness of Husayn 'Ali's claim of being manyuzhiruhu'Llah (i.e. the Bayani messiah and Promised One) based on the text of 1) the Persian Bayan; the 2) testamentary epistles appointing Subh-i-Azal as Mirror, which are also echoed in the Book of the Five Grades; 3) Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri's own Baghdad era writings - such as the Book of the Tigris, his long letter lauding Subh-i-Azal (which is also later quoted in Tanbih al-Na'imin) and his Baghdad era will and testament; 4)  Qur'an and hadith. Like similar treatises penned by others, such as Mulla Ja'far Naraqi's Tadhkirat al-Ghafilin, it also relates the circumstances and behavior of your prophet in the Baghdad era, which is far from flattering. But the main aspect of his argument revolves around the following enunciation of the Persian Bayan about the dates of the next Manifestation,

"If He (Whom God shall Make Manifest) appear in the number of the name of God ghiyath [1511] and all shall enter therein, and none shall remain in the Fire. If He tarry until [the number of] Mustaghath [2001], all shall enter therein, not one shall remain in the Fire, but all shall be transformed into His Light".

Unity II, Chapter 16, Unity II, Chapter 17 and Unity III, Chapter 15.

It is not disengenuous to point out the fact that based on the clear and explicit text of the Bayan Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri's claim, on Bayanic doctrinal grounds, were thoroughly spurious, flimsy and grossly without any foundation. So where is the misrepresentation other than in your prophet's claim? Gilani also points out the numerous other previous claimants to the position your prophet was claiming, including Nabil "akhras" Zarandi who had lately at that time suddenly fallen from his own divine pretensions and adopted those of his new master, Husayn 'Ali Nuri. And, pray tell, if these luminaries of the Bayan you call disengenuous were in fact disengenuous, why then the attempt to kill and assassinate them for daring to set the record straight and speak against your god? The disengenuity is all yours!

413

unity of mankind

ایکاش روزی میآمد که دوستی ها جای دشمنی ها را میگرفت و احترام به عقاید افراد جایگزین فحش ها میشد.

To Badem

>What i find fascinating is how typical of religious people to open their mouth and say these words and yet talk about moral values,love and forgiveness.

Some people of all backgrounds can certainly be two-faced, but since Baha'u'llah said the comment I would like to say he was not two-faced. I already explained earlier that that harsh statement he wrote was in the Kitab-i-Badi, and that the Kitab-i-Badi addressed to two disingenuous Azalis who spent most of their time misrepresenting Baha'u'llah and his Faith, if not orally then through polemical works of their own.

>As i said before i know there are many good things in Bahai teachings. They are good for the society and if applied will improve that society.

That is a very astute observation on your part and I am glad that you can see the potential in some of our teachings. It was very noble of you to come right out and say that.

>1) Are those teachings unique to the Bahai faith? the answer is no. Many philosophers and thinkers have thought about these before Baha'ullah. These issues have been debated and fought for. Today we realize that they are all good things and benefit everybody.

Well sure, I won't doubt that Baha'u'llah wasn't the first person to come up with some ideas. For example, the principle of monotheism is much older than Baha'u'llah, but - like Zoroaster, Jesus, and Muhammad - he reiterated the concept in his teachings. It also would not surprise me if he were not the first one in the world to call for some particularly social guidelines, such as compulsory education for all of humanity and the need for a unifying auxiliary language. The same applies to world peace and the elimination of all prejudices. I am quite certain that people preached these ideas before Baha'u'llah did, as you surmised.

However, I think one should realize that these laws and others were revealed in a religious paradigm. I don't know of any other major world religions that explicitly proclaim the necessity of world peace, the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, and the harmony of science and religion. For the first time, we have a religion whose very foundations rest upon the pillars of both spirituality and social issues on a global scale. Which brings us to our next concern:

>Does there have to be religious teaching or some divine connection in order to have social justice or equality or good education? Again the answer is no. In many societies, usually secular we have good standards of education, an acceptable level of equality of men and women and social justice in general. It has taken a long time for mankind to get to this point but now they know education is good, equality of men and women or different races is good, distribution of wealth is good. We know all of these are good without any string attached!

Divine connection tends to make things better, at least when the religion is still young. How often do you see Baha'is caught drug trafficking? ;)

Try to see it through this lens: if one only has a sense of the social aspects and movements, such as compulsory education, then you only have that social side - there is no spirituality, no underlying concept of God and religious principles and/or incentives. By the same token, if one only sees things through the lens of spirituality, then you will get an ideology which holds some semblance to (general) gnosticism but has little to nothing to say about specifically changing the world and the way it functions. With the Baha'i Faith, however, one can take both of those lenses and make a nice pair of glasses out of them: there is a balance between requirements for the world and age in which we live as well as the optimal methods for nourishing and tending to one's soul.

>By the way I haven't seen much writing about social justice and economic balance of the society in Bahai teachings. the emphasis is mostly on love and unity.

A lot of social action across the globe takes place based on our teachings - see this article and the "related documents" on the right:

//info.bahai.org/article-1-8-0-1.html

>Bahai faith might not have clergy men as you put it but it very well has a good replacement; the assemblies and the whole hierarchy which goes all the way to the top

Well they're not tyrannical or anything. Think about this: if someone gets to that point where they're really trying to create disunity within the Faith or influence their way of thinking to tendencies which run counter to the religion, then those individuals generally don't like the religion very much anymore, do they? Well in that case, they can simply leave, or resign as it is sometimes called. Nobody has to be a Baha'i. If they don't want to be one anymore or feel that they no longer believe in the teachings of Baha'u'llah, then they can just asked to be removed from the membership rolls, and poof - they're not Baha'is anymore. Simple as that. And those people aren't harassed or shunned or anything like that - they are completely and totally left to themselves. Needless to say, there is little "despotism" to be found in our hierarchy, even if one thinks that the probability of its occurrence is mighty high.

>This whole thing is as scary as any other organized religion.

I personally think you're oversimplifying the structure of the religion and, as such, believe that your perception of it is what is scary.

>And for sure we have had enough of it in Iran.

That's ultimately up for the Iranians and the world at large to decide. :)

To who

>Are you guys for real? You claim you have no clergy, but individually you keep giving lectures, and sermons, which is a lot worse, than say having just a few clergy.

Clergy was abrogated in our religion so that there wouldn't be people telling others what they should and should not believe - so that people can independently investigate for themselves. And this opportunity is not precluded in our religion - on the contrary, it is one of our fundamental verities.

>In effect, the entire mass of bahais, acts like an annoying akhund! sermon, sermon, lacture, copy-paste galore!

When people misrepresent our religion, naturally we are going to come to its defense. It's called apologetics. Would you rather we just deliberately silence ourselves and not correct others when they're wrong about something about our faith or are attempting to deliberately distort it?

>And stop with that nonsense election thingy at UHJ! Anybody smart enough saying anything different, gets expelled.

What election thing at the House are you referring to? And your latter statement is incorrect - fortunately, Francesco Ficicchia already raised that "concern" over 20 years before you did and it was later addressed and thoroughly refuted by Udo Schaefer, a German Baha'i scholar, in his greatest contribution to Baha'i apologetics, Making the Crooked Straight. Intellectual freedom is encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. Shoghi Effendi confirms this here:

"It is a fundamental principle of the [Baha'i] Administration not to restrict, under any circumstances, the freedom and privilege of the delegates to express freely and fully their ideas, feelings, grievances and recommendations, so long as they do not encroach upon the established principles of the Administration." (Shoghi Effendi, Letter to an individual believer dates August 12, 1933, quoted from National Convention, no. 15 (p. 30))

He states elsewhere that an individual has the right to express open and constructive criticism in public gatherings held at various levels (Individual Rights and Freedoms, p. 15) and that frank and unfettered consultation is the bedrock of the order of the Baha'i community. (Principles of Baha'i Administration, p. 68)

>You're just a cult

Wrong:

//bahai-library.com/essays/cult.html

>Following blindly.

No, not at all actually. We are encouraged to question things that we may find controversial. Again, if you feel otherwise, bring examples.

>By misguiding people to go from one cult, to something far worse, more dogmatic, less democratic, nothing is going to be solved.

More dogmatic than the Shi'a theocracy...? Actually no, the minimization of dogma over the ages is what actually gave birth to progressive revelation, a basic tenet of the Baha'i Faith.

>I am not saying what we have is good, but better than what the cult of bahais have to offer.

Amen - I'm sure most people prefer primitive capital punishment, intolerance for ethnic and religious minorities, and arbitrary arrests and raids on homes without search warrants rather than a society at peace where people of all religions and backgrounds are not only respected, but they are seen as essential to the beautiful garden that is humanity.

why does it have to be a religion?

reply to Ajang Farid

Iran's struggle for social justice is not new. It started 150 years ago and still going. Many have given their lives and many have been jailed in this fight. Many are in jails now. So the hardship that the Bahai's are enduring in Iran now is nothing new and nothing unique to them. Its actually disappointing to see that they are not part of this struggle because their teachings says Bahai's have to be obedient subjects to their respective government.

As i said before i know there are many good things in Bahai teachings. They are good for the society and if applied will improve that society. But there are two major questions here:
1) Are those teachings unique to the Bahai faith? the answer is no. Many philosophers and thinkers have thought about these before Baha'ullah. These issues have been debated and fought for. Today we realize that they are all good things and benefit everybody.
2) Does there have to be religious teaching or some divine connection in order to have social justice or equality or good education? Again the answer is no. In many societies, usually secular we have good standards of education, an acceptable level of equality of men and women and social justice in general. It has taken a long time for mankind to get to this point but now they know education is good, equality of men and women or different races is good, distribution of wealth is good. We know all of these are good without any string attached!.

By the way I haven't seen much writing about social justice and economic balance of the society in Bahai teachings. the emphasis is mostly on love and unity.

Bahai faith might not have clergy men as you put it but it very well has a good replacement; the assemblies and the whole hierarchy which goes all the way to the top, where women are not allowed ;). So it is a system where it can decide if you are a good or bad person, if what you are doing is good or bad, if you can be accepted to the bahai faith or they need to kick out a member. This whole thing is as scary as any other organized religion.
Its history repeating itself. And for sure we have had enough of it in Iran.

Thick skin...

reply to Covenant9

years ago when i had to engage with some Muslim fanatics i learned to grow a thick skin against these kind of curses.
It was much worse than these.

What i find fascinating is how typical of religious people to open their mouth and say these words and yet talk about moral values,love and forgiveness.

Now I find these humors. let them say anything they want. Its their desperation and my laughter ;)

reply to Elham; before

reply to Elham;

before commenting in this website please read what it says on its title "Iranian.com | Nothing is Sacred". So stop whining and put some meaningful comments or just don't come here and be bothered by what is written here because here, "Nothing is Sacred".

You should know by now in Iranian.com comments are all moderated. so if I was out of line my comments would have been deleted, but they weren't, do you get it now?

to Ajang Farid

Are you guys for real? You claim you have no clergy, but individually you keep giving lectures, and sermons, which is a lot worse, than say having just a few clergy. In effect, the entire mass of bahais, acts like an annoying akhund! sermon, sermon, lacture, copy-paste galore!

And stop with that nonsense election thingy at UHJ! Anybody smart enough saying anything different, gets expelled. Unless, people sheepishly follow a certain pattern, they're given warnings.

You're just a cult, like the rest of the religious people. Following blindly. Bahais only contribute to problems of Iran. By misguiding people to go from one cult, to something far worse, more dogmatic, less democratic, nothing is going to be solved. I am not saying what we have is good, but better than what the cult of bahais have to offer.

Covenant9

Regarding the Kitab-i-Badi: it is important to note the context of this work, as with everything else in the Baha'i Faith and religious study in general. The Kitab-i-Badi was written by Baha'u'llah while he was in Edirne (also known as Adrianople, currently in Turkey), and it is an apologia to Azalis, specifically Mirza Mihdiy-i-Gilani and Siyyid Muhammad-i-Isfahani.

I will quote from Adib Taherzadeh's "Revelation of Baha'u'llah," vol. 2, pp. 370-374:

 Kitab-i-Badi
 
"The Kitáb-i-Badi’ is Bahá’u’lláh’s apologia written in defence of His Faith and to demonstrate the validity and the truth of His Own Mission…Kitáb-i-Badi’ was addressed to the notorious Mirza Mihdiy-i-Gilani, a so-called Bábí and a man of perfidy and hypocrisy. It was revealed in response to several venomous comments which he had made in a letter to one of the companions of Bahá’u’lláh [Aqa Muhammad-’Aliy-i-Tambaku-Furus]… Mirza Mihdi, however, was known among the Bábís as a man who lived an impious life and whose deeds were contrary to the teachings of God…in Constantinople…he came in contact with Siyyid Muhammad-i-Isfahani who had gone to Constantinople to stir up trouble for Bahá’u’lláh and His companions. As a result of this association a new chapter opened in the life of Mirza Mihdi. As a corrupt and arrogant mischief-maker himself, he discovered in Siyyid Muhammad an affinity and likeness which soon resulted in his becoming an ardent follower and a willing tool. Under the guidance of his new-found teacher, he learned new lessons in intrigue, became acquainted with those misrepresentations and lies which characterized the activities of Siyyid Muhammad, and arose in enmity and opposition to Bahá’u’lláh.
 
"At the instigation of Siyyid Muhammad, Mirza Mihdi wrote a letter to his old friend Aqa Muhammad-’Aliy-i-Tambaku-Furush who was one of Bahá’u’lláh’s companions in Adrianople. This venomous letter, loaded with calumnies against Bahá’u’lláh, was obviously written with the help of Siyyid Muhammad, and probably composed by him. Most of its arguments were aimed at proving the falseness of the claims of Bahá’u’lláh to be ‘He Whom God shall make manifest’, the One promised by the Báb. Not only were his objections utterly false themselves, but some of them were couched in discourteous language and were disrespectful to Bahá’u’lláh…As soon as he read Mirza Mihdi’s distasteful letter, Aqa Muhammad-’Ali took it to Bahá’u’lláh. The Kitáb-i-Badi’ was written to refute the accusations of Mirza Mihdi…
 
"The book exerted a great influence upon the members of the Bábí community, especially those who were confused and vacillating. It resolved many of their doubts and perplexities and enabled them to recognize the exalted station of Bahá’u’lláh as ‘He Whom God shall make manifest’…it also gives an account of some of Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings as well as some aspects of the history of His Cause…The arguments put forward by Mirza Mihdi were feeble and misguided. They contained many false statements, misrepresentations and lies which originated from Siyyid Muhammad. The manner in which the Kitáb-i-Badi’ is revealed is such that Bahá’u’lláh quotes a few lines from the letter of Mirza Mihdi and then reveals pages in reply. He continues in this way until all points and accusations embodied in the letter are fully answered…"

It has been recorded that when people traveled for over 4 months on foot just to see Baha'u'llah, Mirza Mihdiy-i-Gilani would report those individuals to the government, and they would be forced to go back from whence they came because of this spiteful instigator. These two people were ex-Babis who did everything within their power to uproot Baha'u'llah's young faith, and you now raise a discrepancy because his language was strong? These were relentless, insensitive, malicious polemics, after all. I think in light of what those did to Baha'u'llah and his believers, his tone in his response to them was perfectly justified. He certainly had a right to be angry.

One should always read things contextually.

Those Opposing Baha'u'llah’s Message Are Bastards and Animals

About Munkireen-i-amr'u'llah

The glorious founder of the Baha’i Faith, whose goal in life is to unite humanity and encourage global respect and understanding says:

"Who so ever doesn’t regard the Baha’i teachings and regulations as the ultimate truth, should ask his mother about the truth of his origin* and cannot be considered as his father’s right and legal son."

(Ref. Ma'idih-'i Asmani, (Heavenly Repast), Bahaullah, Volume 4, page 355

//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MAS4/mas4-355.ht...)

"Those souls who oppose Kitab-i-Badi’s orders are deprived of names and characters, and God regards them as animals and with such (animals) will they be joined and assembled."

"Today who so ever merely addresses my rejecters as "human beings" will be totally deprived of God’s mercy, let alone those who try to prove such souls’ worth or grant them status."

All are treasures

Dear Badem,

I read with great interest your lines, and I can imagine the disappointment and rage you feel towards religion, especially in a time where a lot of crimes are done in the name of religion. I am a Baha'i, and as such I believe in Baha'u'llah's Teachings, which state "regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom". So every single human being is a treasure, as long as we work and serve to make this earth a better place. Iran is indeed blessed with many treasures, not only Baha'is, and not all Baha'is are treasures. I live in Europe, and to me the Baha'i Community is a dear treasure in Iran, and you want to know why? Because they endure persecution for 30 years with such resiliance, and continue to serve in their capacities the well-being of the Iranian society. Because they are deprived to go to universities, unless they recant their Faiths, but their personal integrity is stronger and they accept the oppression inflicted upon them. Because their children are systematically being intimidated at schools, but even they keep their heads up. Because their graves are destroyed, yet they respond with love. Do I think they are treasures? Yes, Badem, I do, as much as I think that thousands of other people in Iran are treasures who work silently for human rights.

Do I think that Baha'u'llah's Teachings are the the solution to Iran's ill-stated society? Of course, I do! How can "Equality between men and women" be not a cure to a society which suppresses half of its peoples? Of course, I believe that Iran can flourish when social justice through education for all its peoples is created. Of course, Iran's youth will benefit and prosper, when they all realize that they are the diamonds, valuable and polished, and created to serve humankind.

Your ill-feelings towards organized religion is understandable, because the clergy has always abused its powers for its own purposes and led masses of ignorant people into darkness. Do I think that the Baha'i Religion is a cure to Iran's society? Yes, I do, because there is no clergy. The "power" is in the grassroots and the democratically elected institutions serve the believers. It has structure which facilitates the educational programs, the social programs, and for us all to use our talents to serve humanity, and create everlasting peace on earth!

I do want to thank you for your thought provoking comments, because I realize more the need for myself to polish the gems which are inside me, not yet developed, so I can serve to make this world a better place, every day. God bless you!

The Baha'is are the Moslems of the Age !

Iran is the AMERICA of the Age !
Whatever atrocities the Americans and Zionists are doing towards Moslems, the same is being done to Baha'is in Iran perhaps in a small scale.

The Americans have killing the Moslems in the name of terrorism and the Mullas are killing the Baha'is in the name of Espionage.

Americans have killed Millions.
And Mullas killed Hundreds.

Americans are killing the Human Beings -
Mullas are destroying the graves -

Badem, I am neither a Bahai,

Badem, I am neither a Bahai, nor spiritual, so you don't need to make assumptions of what I think. All I was trying to convey was that you should show more respect before preaching something. You are just like a fanatic mullah yourself. And no one said "cabbage" here, as far as I recall, so be fair minded in your comments.