POINT

Mr Hosseini aziz,

I apologize for being late to comment on a well written article,as the poet says:

Jaanaa sokhan az zabaan e maa miguee!!.

Happy Nowruz to you & your family.

sepaas

Ebi aka Haaji

sunshine: Let's agree on disagreement!

I know barbarians (this word is also referred to those who do NOT understand a culture, but viciously attack it) would assult me for my limited Islamic knowledge.  Then again, maybe I just preempted them! What the heck, here it is

This phrase "Let's agree to disagree" is not new at all.  Many comments ago, I used a variation of it.  Despite the Islamophobia(let alone babaric anti Islam propaganda) that is Déjà vu these days, it is important to know the origin of this phrase goes back to Quran in a short Surreh.  Here it is

سوره قل يا ايهالکافرون

به نام آفريدگار بخشايندهء مهربان. بگو: اي ناباوران. نميپرستم آنچه مي پرستيد و نميپرستيد آنچه ميپرستم و نه پرستنده ام آنچه ميپرستيد و نه پرستنده ايد آنچه ميپرستم. شما راست آيين شما و مراست آيين من

Peace

for Mr. Hosseini's eyes ONLY

Mr. MiNeum71 did not want to offend you.  He just wanted to prove I was paranoic.  You see, there is this little secret in human behavior called paradoxical intention!  Keep in mind when it comes to chert o pert, intention is also behavior!  Just think of preemptive strike.

So sorry, I am wrong, you are right, alright, but just for the sake of helping MiNeum71 with a paranoic statement as a Norouz gift:  It is not alright to single out a certain people for the negative side of a human tendency common to all the people.

Peace

MiNeum71 vs Hosseini

It is not even a day passed

Sorry Mr. Hosseini, you joined him, so enjoy it

خوش بود گر محک تجربه آيد به ميان

تا سيه روی شود هر که در او غش باشد

You two are a perfect match for a joint peace mumbling nonsense (chert o pert) on Iranian Paranoia

All you two need is your own bios

آنانکه کارد را به خيار آشنا کنند

آيا بود که موقع خوردن ياد ما کنند

peace

Dear "hossein.hosseini"

Joint the piece Iranian Paranoia? Well, I don´t think so, I´m sure either you want to take advantage of my generosity and publish it as your own article, or you want to find out my political view and kill me at the end of the day ...

Btw: I searched a bit and could only find few interesting Iranian web papers and community journals. Can you recommend some?

Even more Pathetic!

Who said I have to join the gang for you to graciously exempt me?!  But congratulations to you for finally saving face to sarcastically and partially practice your preaching!  I understand it takes time to learn the other part.  I mean saying you were wrong!

That is so pathetic.

There is absolutely nothing personal here.  So, it doesn't make any difference who is right or wrong, but it is NOT alright to single out a certain people on the negative side of an issue common to human nature!  You obviously are more interested in dividing people than uniting them!  Look at your titles of interests: "NoRooz vs. NowRouz"  Oops, I just exhibited Iranian paranoia! 

Besides, I kept saying having different opinions does not make either side right or wrong.  That is, off course, just an opinion I share with like minded people.  Not because a little piece by you or me or anyone else would have an iota effect on millions of people (awful Iranians or obnoxious Middle Easterners) whom you miserably want to convict, but because I contributed to this pathetic nonsense as well!  Oops, sorry, you meant just a section of it aged over 50, if I recall it correctly. 

Now, if it makes you happy, then I am so sorry, I was wrong, you were right, and alright.  Please forgive me to have challenged you!  I should have just praised you for your outstanding and remarkable piece of literature!  Obviously it was the greates discovery of the century!  Then I would have been honored to join you for the next excellent piece of creative writing in the new millennium!

Now, if you are satisfied, let's finally stop this in order to enjoy our norouz.  Any which way you spell it, is fine with me.

Peace, 

Let's agree to disagree!

If American, Iranian, German,...this article was like a gift to me. Thank you for sharing this thought with us and i would keep this with me. I heard recently this quote and since then i started using it and it is so peaceful: "Let's agree to disagree!" This would be maybe the first exercise. Most of the time we feel we are right but we don't leave it at that point yet...the other party should come and say yes we are right and give up her or his point of view and that is the reason for the long and hot argues!!!
Again thank you Mr. Hosseini! I think you are right and your American colleague is right as well. And even your readers who think American doesn't say yes you are right and i am wrong..they are right too!!!

Sorkhi man az tou...Zardi tou az man!

Take it easy

Take it easy Mr. Puqurian, it is Norooz time:)

You're Right, Alright?  You don't have to join the gang. Happy New Year,

More peace

A Pathetic Gang is Formed!

LOL

Sorry Mr. Hosseini, you joined him, so enjoy it

خوش بود گر محک تجربه آيد به ميان

تا سيه روی شود هر که در او غش باشد

You two are a perfect match for a joint peace mumbling nonsense (chert o pert) on Iranian Paranoia

All you two need is your own bios

همه ياوه، همه خام و همه سست

همه چرت و همه پرت و همه یبس

peace

to MiNeum71 & Flying Solo

MiNeum71, that is a great topic 'Iranian Paranoia', maybe we could do a joint piece?:)  I write occasionally for a local print magazine in Orange County called 'Payam-e-Ashena'.  Some articles I also cross-post here.  There are a number of topics that could create Paranoia, I can think of 'NoRooz vs. NowRouz", "Being Late", "From Cyrus to Shah - ignoring anything in between?", Aroosi - Iranian Style.   I wish I had more time to write, a full-time job and two teenage kids keep me busy enough. 

Flying Solo, I think JJ knows the stats.  I doubt if this piece was even in the top 20, there are many good writers/articles here. 

Wishing you  a Happy New Year

Public Discussions are not Necessarily Great!

While I agree with the basic principle of the statement, allow me to say public discussions are not necessarily “great” because different opinions can be distorted by special interests for reasons NOT known to innocent casual readers.  Anyone who followed our discussion on this particular issue fully understands how MiNeum71 initiated offensive remarks and kept distorting other opinions.  But how about others who jump in claiming they have not read the thread, but …

I respect all opinions (whether I agree with them or not), including silent readers who sent me private emails (my email address is public), some of whom offended me, and others appreciated my intellectual courage to stand up to innuendo.

While I certainly appreciate what Mr. Javid and his colleagues do for this forum, and I do not mean in any way to belittle the effort or to expect anything beyond what is reasonable, we must keep in mind that such a forum can and does become a platform for innuendo that is entirely different from the so called obscene “language, insults and inappropriate attacks.”  In fact, I was personally insulted and attacked on this issue and others just because the other side failed to argue his/her view without insinuation.  No moderator stopped it.  So, while I never initiate such tactics, I never beguile myself NOT to fight back for self defense.

I remember, I stood up for another member in a discussion group who was personally attacked by a so called big shot and the moderator actually threw him out of the discussion group.  I kept defending the little guy (in fact, I did not share the little guy’s opinion to begin with), and finally the moderator threw me out as well!  This same moderator (along with many other members) later joined our group  and posted his opinions for the group that I moderate!  His articles are also published here.  I would never stop defending him if he is ever personally attacked, but I will not throw out the offender either.  But that is just me!  In fact, I wrote it to the group’s policy to make sure it would never happen.

Hardly anyone takes the risk to side with either party on a personal attack or sides with someone whose opinion may not be perceived as popular, let alone making it public.  Furthermore, anyone can develop an ability to destroy any opposing view in a completely polite dialogue, let alone people like MiNeum71 who does not even exhibit such abilities, and his personal attacks do not go beyond the low life creatures. 

Yet, I must repeat, we should NOT let them get a free ride belittling others just because they failed growing up learning basic civil standards.  Learn from our own legends on human behavior.  I posted a couple of poems in a separate comment in order not to mess up the format of the text for readability.  Their educational values far exceed any perceived offense.  However, except for MiNeum71, I did not intend to offend anyone else

Peace,

Poems

چو دانا تورا دشمن جان بود ... به از دوست مردی که نادان بود

دشمن دانا به از نادان دوست  

دشمن دانا بلندت ميکند ... برزمينت ميزند نادان دوست

Dear "hossein.hosseini"

thanks for your time and effort for sharing your thoughts. This was a great article ...... and I´m looking forward to reading your next article:

Chert-o-Pert Goftan and the Iranian Paranoia

Dear "Flying Solo",

I agree with you, but it´s not the matter of freedom of speech, it´s a matter of creating an atmosphere close and personal for getting the intellectual additional benefit (which is more important to me than the benefit of the readers).

It has been both an honour and a joy to read your lines. Btw, you didn´t prove your Public Discussions are Great.  ;)

Thank you

Mr. Hosseini,

I enjoyed participating on this thread very much.  Clearly you have hit a nerve with many. I'd be curious to know how many times your page was viewed.  I wonder if the editor will oblige us.  :)

My very best for the new year. Eide Shoma Mobarak.

Public Discussions are Great

Mr. Mineum71

Debate is an education for everyone, the participants as well as the readers. We can all learn a great deal from each other's view point. And while a private conversation may appear 'safer', a discussion on an open forum such as iranian.com affords us all a glimpse of 'freedom of speech' and the benefits thereof.

I can fully accept if you do not wish to continue this discussion on Mr. Hosseini's thread.  I will not entertain a private conversation because to me the benefit here is for everyone's involvement for the few posters and the MANY readers.  We don't always agree or feel comfortable with how our ideas are received or challenged and there may be times when you or I or someone else may be personally attacked. Let's not forget there  are moderators who will stop untoward language, insults and inappropriate attacks.

 One thing I have learnt about debates and heated discussions is that when I get 'upset' there is definitely a lesson there for me to learn.  Nowhere but in a challenge do we find a new thing or two about ourselves.

I thank you for your complimentary words about my articles. I do entertain private contact for my work and look forward to hearing from you about your analysis of the pieces you have read.

I have enjoyed our exchange.

Mr. Hosseini: Farewell to all.

When I first read your article, I simply felt you were naive, and I felt sorry for the more experienced people with whom you've shared the experience because they did not take the extra step to prove you would do exactly the same but for an issue of interest to you that is different from theirs.  I never thought you were a paid agent, but like I said you exercised poor judgment to single out a certain people for a human tendency that is common to any people.

You see even in privacy of my mind I did NOT offend you to call you idiot, stupid, liar, imbecile, etc.  Later, I took the opportunity to show you how you failed to practice what you preach.  I also receive a number of emails from people reading my comments and articles posted for our groups everyday.  They are different in content from bashing to very nice heartfelt appreciations.  I have hardly ever used any of them to support my position, but I never missed publishing a single opposing position.  But I never expect other contributors in our groups to do the same.  Here it was necessary (please excuse my language) to bring it in your face.

When MiNeum71 first confused "belittling" and "self acknowledgement", I also felt the same and very nicely brought it up to his attention.  Assuming he is NOT a paid agent to bash Iranians (I believe he is) his parents must have had the same difficulty taking the same extra step.  However, he kept distorting many honest opinions expressed on this thread.  AND he never apologized for it.

Just look at his last comment to see how viciously he distorts my comments JUST to avoid saying he was sorry for his clear and proven FACT for insulting my intelligence and his initiating offensive remarks, i.e. calling me a liar.  He is the most extreme and vivid example of the people you were addressing in your article.

I had long played it nice to people in many many arguments, but I realized I was wrong because they get the wrong message thinking they have defeated me.  So I decided to stick to the basic principle to make sure difference of opinion does not make either side right or wrong.  You will see vivid evidence in this same thread.

I have made many mistakes, and I never wait for a second to acknowledge it and to apologize.  Even in this same thread NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE apologized more often than I did NOT because I did something wrong, but because others might have perceived my comment different from what I intended.

While, it took a good portion of my premium time when I am most busy, but I am still confident silent readers have realized how precious our culture is and how we are unfairly singled out for the negative side of many issues, within and without.

BTW, no offense to some good commentators who use fictitious names here, I also took your using your real name, as a token of honesty. 

Peace,

Thak you all

Just a quick note to all who commented on this piece. It took me a while to read them all. Looks like we had some well rounded and sometimes 'heated' debate going. All and all I think these kinds of discussion are healthy and needed for our community to move forward.  I especially enjoyed reading responses from MiNeum71, Fltying Solo, Persian Westender and even Mr. Purqurian (even though I think he implied that I/we are paid agents?:).  Good luck to all of you and Happy NoRooz 1388. Regards, Hossein

Dear "Flying Solo",

I hope I can take the liberty of using the personal contact for the future conversation. I´m sure you understand that I don't feel discussing public with children about I have said this but YOU HAVE done that and you didn´t PROVE so I WAS RIGHT and you go to school because YOU ARE CONFUSING government and people because abuse is only done by the government and NOT BY THE PEOPLE but the government is great because it actually lets its prisoners take a vacation and so because of the ranting of an US-paid no name opposition I AM CRYING NOW so now YOU MUST OFFER an apology ... .

By the way: I read your moments just now, they are brillant, so brillant, much much much better than my boring research papers, I´m sure whose knowledge I like more, actually not mine. Specially No Holds Barred, George Willoughby, Booseh (I could write the end of this story if you want ;) ), Pulse, Etoile ... holy crap they were all fantastic.

Thank you.

Mr. Purqurian,

I take your point. I think you express it well about your home and host country. 

I have enjoyed our exchange.

Further Further Clarification

Dear Ms. Flying Solo,

Please let stop this right here, because it is not important who said it first, I can go back to our beloved Molana who said it many centuries ago.

I cited your crediting MiNuem71 for the quote, and you wanted to clarify it.  So I quoted you from your own comment.  Just look at it under:

Good Exchange by Flying Solo on Wed Mar 11, 2009 02:39 PM PDT

Towards the end of your comment, you said:“I appreciate your vote of confidence and you are correct in that this debate is not about right or wrong but an exchange of ideas.”

I really do not like the core issue being lost in minor details.  There are honest typos, misquotes, misunderstanding, and many other inaccuracies.  I am not interested in any of them, but if any of it is my fault, I simply apologize.  I hope that is enough.

I don’t even have a problem with the author for his poor judgment, but I have come to the conclusion that MiNeum71 is NOT honest in an intellectual discourse.  He tried to silence me by insulting and offending me.  But while I never initiate doing any kind of innuendo against any SPECIFIC individual, I will never leave an offensive remark unanswered.I love my country, I love my culture, and I love my country of residence.  Many years ago, I wrote a paper in which I said:  The country you are born in is like your mother.  The country you live in is like your spouse.  You love your mother, but you live with your spouse.  You will not live a good life if you do not love your spouse as well.

Is it old fashioned?  Fine, it is, but I am also a reasonable person AND I do not let individuals like MiNeum71 get a free ride bashing Iranians.

Peace,

Further Clarification

Mr. Purqurian:

Thank you for your explanation.

My reference to right and wrong goes back to my first post about the matter on this thread - shown below.

by Flying Solo on Mon Mar 09, 2009 08:13 PM PDT

In my opinion right and wrong are relative terms anyway.

Ms. Flying Solo

I thank you for your clarification.  No, I did NOT mean you.  His name was dropped in my trying to put both Persian and English alphabet in there.  But I did difintely, but not clearly excluded you.

Furthermore, I did not mean to complain who was supporting who.  Just read my message to Persian Westender, and then yours where you credited it to him which is fine.  You said:

"I appreciate your vote of confidence and you are correct in that this debate is not about right or wrong but an exchange of ideas."

Maybe he has also said it, but I lost interest in his ranting.  So I apologize to both of you, if I am mistaking.

Peace, 

Clarification

Mr. Purqurian

If I may Sir, I just wish to point out that my reference to 'no right or wrong' was my 'opinion' and certainly not offered as a support to your stance or that of Mr. Mineum71. 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your last paragraph; if indeed there is an insinuation that I may be a paid agent.  I am not, nor ever have had the burden or the privilege to be an agent of any sort to support or attack the Iranian culture.

I fully support what I understand the Sa'adi poem to mean in that there is a significant difference between theory and practice when it comes to knowledge.  

Ms. Flyin Solo and MiNeum,

I took the time to read your sociology diuscourse. I enjoyed it, but I think the issue here is rather simple.  The Author singled out Iranians and Middle Eastern people for a negative human tendency.  If there is any thing worng in this whole issue, that is the one.

But you Mr. MiNeum proved how easily you could distort honest statements in order to PROVE you are RIGHT and then attack your opponent (if you will) personally.  I just cite a couple of them:

1.  You distorted my specific words (prison system) to call me a liar and went a long way to subdue this DATA.

2. You distorted my comparing Iran with the U.S. using GPI DATA to press on negativity "rank 105 from 140 nations IS negative".  Well, I did not say it was positive or negative.  Like the whole issue of this thread I compared the U.S. 97 with Iran 105.  And I repeat ranking is NOT as important as score where the U.S. scores 2.2 and Iran scores 2.3.

When Ms. Flying Solo credited you for my statement to Westender (where I said different opinions does not make one wrong or right), I thought you would, at least, become more civilized, but you kept calling me names.

Well, like I said in that same message I will NOT give in to distortion and offensive remarks.  I will offend you back, even if you keep coming back with a different moniker to obfuscate this issue.  You see, I use my real name.

BTW, YOU NEVER PROVED YOUR DATA.

No offence to Ms. Flying Solo because I believe she is a fine educated and fair minded woman, but assuming you are not a paid agent for bashing Iranians, I cite a couple of Sa'adi's poem for you:

تيغ دادن در کف زنگی مست ...  به زانکه علم را افتد نادان بدست

  علم چندانکه بيشتر خوانی ... چون عمل در تو نيست نادانی

نه محقق بود نه دانشمند ... چارپائی براو کتابی چند

Peace,

I am learning

Mr. Mineum,

Your first paragraph seconds what my father has been saying all the years I have known him. I take your point for I know the argument - well, It is I believe - social evolution?

I also take your point about the 'boy and the country'.  I was demonstrating to you with those two phrases that in Farsi and English both there is an inherent belief in the 'sour dough' philosophy - as in you are where you come from. 

Here is where the 'new world' comes in - and where is this experimentation taking place but in Canada or US - where we have people from a variety of backgrounds, changing and morphing, on fertile ground - becoming something other than what their genetic destiny meant them to be. Breaking barriers - evolving - becoming the improved - advanced etc etc.  Again, data is limited and it is only a beginning - I will admit.  But over time I would like to think that 'nurturing' plays as big a role as nature.

Your reference to that BBC program in regards to adopted children and their return to their roots and being able to 'identify' with them is fascinating. In my life I have been fortunate enough to have made the acquaintance of a number of adult 'adopted children' who in some cases have sought their biological parents and some have not.  May I gingerly approach that subject though because it will involve the introduction of the issue of 'color'.  In my limited experience it so appeared that the people who were of the same 'color' as the adopted parents had felt closer to their adopted culture than the ones who were 'distinctly' different. I have known parents with 'adopted' children - the first prefernece for them has been to adopt from their own 'color', 'root'. It is a visual thing - and very powerful.  So, in response to that BBC program and again, let me preface by saying I am not a sociologist, biologist, psychologist etc etc - possibly it could be that the adopted kid was 'drawn' to his/her own first and foremost becuase of the immediate identification with the 'color'. 

I accept what you describe as the improvent yardstick, if you will, whole heartedly. 

I know very little of Sa'adi and Persepolis other than rudimentary knowledge and I cannot argue for or against whether that is culture or history.  Clearly you aer much better versed in that regard.

'79 revolution was more than a 'change' - it was a breaking out of a mold - and there were many facets that called for that upheaval.  I believe it is still too early to judge its cause, effect and outcome from a 'historic persepctive'.  On a personal note - I will answer your question about improvement as such.  In the early '90's I had the opportunity to spend time in Tehran. I lived, worked, socialized and explored the city and its people.  I came away with a 'flavor' and certainly my impressions were not scientifically based. In 2009 I see Iranians from Iran who I would say are infinitely more 'advanced' and 'sophisticated' in thinking than the people I met then. Just to clarify - I interacted with academics as well as lay people during my stay in Tehran . I would say the youth that I see 'leave' the country are much more sophisticated than what I remembered encoutnering.   Again, this is a personal recount.

I am not certain whether the building of a war-torn country is that easy - given the limitations.  I don't know. I have never run a country! 

Another thought before I close - Germany - specifically West Germany.  Built itself from ground up - during how many years?  And then how long is it taking to 'absorb' east germany?  Great sociology subjects. 

 I enjoy this exchange and thank you for coming back to it. 

MiNeum, YOU called me LIAR, NOT me

So who makes it personal?  You keep obfuscating the problem.

Yes, I was mistaking and actually stated I was wrong thinking my message would be deleted if I put a link in it.  I noticed your link and I posted the original one because it was you who manipulated the data NOT me.  It was you who kept obfuscating the Issue NOT me.

Just who manipulated a clear 7.3 million prisoners (in prison system) to 2.2 million prisoners.  This is also a proof to my statement that different interests makes any statistics biased because you can take anything you want from the data. 

There are many many studies most of them by coauthored from Iranians like you who become a part of contributing professionals bashing Iranians confusing the government with the people.  IMHO, such studies are NOT limited to Iranian bashers abroad, but also IRI officials inside the government.  The $75 million U.S. fund for the so called democracy in Iran will NOT be wasted paying just no name oppositions!

We Iranians are like any other people with our share of good and bad behaviors.  We should stop being nice to simple minded people as well as paid agents who single out IRANIANs on negative issues.

Peace, 

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

I don´t know, why you get personal (learn from this same article, I guess he is preaching you, YOU ARE NOT A JOKE, lack of intelligence AND education, Go to School to Learn Something).

Anyway thanks for proving my theory, most Iranians are self-opinionated, stubborn, uncivilized, uneducated, childish.

Great job

MiNeum, YOU DID NOT Prove Your DATA

YOU DID NOT Prove your data!  YOU JUST CAN'T say YOU WERE WRONG!  So you keep obfuscating the issue.  At leaset, learn from this same article.  I guess he is preaching you!

Mine is already proved I actually wrote in "PRISON SYSTEM".  And any prison system in the world has some kind of probation or parole.  The Islamic Republic of Iran actually lets its prisoners take a vacation!  Do you take them off the total prisoners? 

They are all considered a part of prison population.  Furthermore, you said 2.7 million, CNN says 7.3 million.  Now who is lying?  Do you have any dignity at all to at least offer an apology?! 

YOU ARE NOT A JOKE, I will NOT laugh at you, I am sorry for your lack of intelligence AND education.  If you are NOT paid to keep bashing Iranians and obfuscating honest discussion here, then Go to School to Learn Something! 

Peace,

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

I guess YOU are the one who should prove his data. You mentioned CNN, I searched before and read this sentence The U.S. correctional population -- those in jail, prison, on probation or on parole -- totaled 7.3 million. - I translate: on probation or on parole means NOT in a prison anymore. Don´t be embarrassed, English language is difficult.

Maybe you haven´t  saw it, these blue lines mean you can click on it and then you enter a new site. Please click on International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College and you can read the primary data. Btw: The CNN report contains statistical data, but it is NOT statistical data. And ICPS is not my institution, it´s the leading institution in prison facts. But I should ask them if they are bashing the Iranian culture and nation concerning to their terms.

Btw, you plagiated my mail. I wrote the link of the GPI ranking, and you show me the same link and want me to prove my source. Nice! Be sure, rank 105 from 140 nations IS negative. And to be fair, also the USA are a banana republic.