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Morphing a Theocracy
31-May-2009
There is election fever in the air, not in Iran but on Iranian.com. The mounting excitement transmitted through a number of consecutive articles and a barrage of favorable comments has been contagious. Iran’s reform movement has been mobilized to silence the critics and downplay the significance of daunting issues.
The showdown, however, doesn’t appear to be between the opposing candidates from the conservative camp and the Reforms Front. Here, on Iranian.com, the face-off is between those seeking to rehabilitate the Islamic Republic of Iran and the political activists in quest of overthrowing the regime. After all, the prevalent fear amongst the reformists isn’t losing an election by large or small margins. Quite to the contrary! What keeps the reformists awake at night is the forfeiture of the underlying premise that a theocracy can be morphed into a democracy by gradual reforms imposed through theatrical elections.
The missing ingredients as advocated by the reform movement are patience and perseverance, but an ironclad commitment to the unconditional survival of the Islamic Republic of Iran is also evident. The benefits of such approach are explained to be multifaceted, the least of which is the peaceful transition of power from one camp to another.
Accordingly, after every election cycle, the fate of our nation is placed either in the hands of the hardliners or the reformists, resulting in revolving periods of death and destruction followed by relative redress and recovery. This solution, we are reminded, is preferable to the alternative: total death and destruction without periods of relief or, God forbid, contemplating a secular democracy without the mullahs.
Since the former Prime Minister Mir-Hossein Mousavi, in an article published on Iranian.com, pledged to safeguard and protect human life and dignity, his ability to uphold such a commitment based on past performances has been scrutinized. As a result, the reform movement is hampered by those disheartening bygone years as it struggles to thread its way through the current election. Amongst the controversial subjects brushed under the rug is a pair of inconvenient reminders that refuse to fade away: The leaders of the reform movement are not dissidents but rather government insiders whose career trail leads to the massacres of political prisoners in 1980’s while their financial interests are traceable to the daily looting of our national wealth.
Unable to address such issues, the reform movement has either downplayed the enormity of such crimes or simply asked the critics to comprehend the circumstances under which such crimes have occurred. Nonetheless, whether out of sheer incompetence, absolute helplessness, or blatant criminality, the reformist leaders have become a material liability for the movement.
To revitalize the public persona of its leaders, the reform movement has capitalized on Iran’s current state of affairs only to remind the nation that last time one of their own held the Office of the Presidency, the conditions were more tolerable and prosperous. Not surprisingly, after hailing Ayatollah Khatami’s era, the reformists are dumbfounded by any attempt to spoil his accomplishments or dispute his effectiveness. Although the historical conditions that necessitated the emergence of the reform movement in Iran are often overlooked, in the light of the current election, a rudimentary understanding of those years is long overdue.
In essence, there were two political and social circumstances that attributed to the rise of the reform movement in Iran: First, the mounting opposition and discontent with the regime amongst the upper and middle class Iranians became apparent to Shi'a intellectuals who feared for the future of Islam in Iran. Second, the brutality of the regime after the massacres of 1980’s and the chain killings of 1990’s left absolutely no room whatsoever for possible expressions of political dissent.
Consequently, any twinkle of opposition had to emerge from within the establishment to withstand mullahs’ wrath, to boast of any likelihood of survival, and finally to live to tell the tale. Once this phenomenon was born, political activists seized the opportunity to form NGOs and human rights organizations to combat the regime. As a result, the successful election of Mohammad Khatami to become the fifth president of Iran was not the cause but rather the effect of the reformists’ mobilization.
Another controversy plaguing the reform movement is the vetting process through which presidential candidates are permitted to enter the race. Deriving the selection criteria from Article 115 of Iran’s constitution, the Guardian Council hand-selects only candidates with “religious and political personalities” who have demonstrated their belief in “the fundamental principles of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the official religion of the country.” Simply put, with a single stroke of their pen, the members of Guardian Council eliminate all opposition candidates but retain “the faithful.” Believe it or not, even the reform movement is struggling to legitimize this mockery as an election but stops short of withdrawing from it.
Regardless of the upcoming election’s outcome on June 12, 2009, the reform movement remains to be a decisive force in reining the masses on behalf of the Islamic Republic of Iran and in shaping the regime’s chances of survival. As hardliners eye the Office of the Supreme Leader and consolidate the Faqih’s hold on the armed forces, Iran’s moderate Shi'a clergy is pushing the limits to test our nation’s resolve and thirst for fundamental, meaningful changes in economic, social, and political arenas. At the same time, the reformist leaders are assessing the tolerance of the hardliners with cautious overtures to share the levers of authority before it is too late. In other words, the reformist candidates are asking our nation to place one of them at the helms of power out of sheer desperation and utter apprehension of the alternatives.
Today, running on a reform agenda but hand in hand with the hardliners, the leaders of the reform movement, having benefited from the imprisonment and murder of political activists throughout the country, have apparently emerged as the only viable alternative to the merciless inquisitors of Tehran. Simultaneously, in league with their blood brethren, the reformist leaders have also looted the country lock, stock and barrel and pocketed the fruits of our labor while the populace is destitute and distraught.
Once again, Iranian political activists are outwitted to follow the mullahs’ lead. Once again, the nation is bamboozled into placing their fate and future in the hands of the Shi'a clergy. Once again, Iranians are told to choose between the bad and the ugly. Once again, we are gambling with our future and blindly settling for a change, any change.
Meanwhile, the temporary, lax and jubilant election environment has been seized by few political activists to form a coalition encompassing grassroots organizations that represent pro-democracy groups from all walks of life. The Solidarity for Democracy and Human Rights in Iran (SDHRI) has brought together organizations dedicated to the causes of women and workers while unifying secular movements such as the United Students Front, the Association of Liberal and Nationalist University Students, and Democratic Front of Iran. Additionally, our nation’s best and brightest legal scholars, human rights advocates, and seasoned patriots have joined forces to offer an alternative to those disillusioned by the breadth of poor political choices available.
The seed for this solidarity was planted by Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh in 1944, but the sapling was axed down long before it poked through the darkness. There, in obscurity, it lay dormant, spreading its roots silently but determinedly. Sixty five years later, after the failure of all flavors of Islam in Iran and after the collapse of all communist organizations, our path has taken us full circle to that seed, to that sapling, to that dream.
It is due time to nurture this sapling with light and guard it with our blood…
Acknowledgement
I would like to extend my sincere gratitude to Dr. Masoud Kazemzadeh for his informative and timely article: "Prospects and Obstacles: Solidarity for Democracy and Human Rights in Iran"
| Recently by LalehGillani | Comments | Date |
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| Future Belongs to the Fallen | 12 | May 03, 2011 |
منکه ماندن را ندانم یا که رفتن | 7 | May 03, 2011 |
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Captain Ahab
by Sassan (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 06:17 PM PDTFrankly, I'm starting to think you just want to argue for the sake of "Obfuscation."
All I said was that in a true democratic system with plurality of politcial parties, RESPONSIBLE Islamic groups can and should be able to form political parties in order to represent their views in parliament, so long as they do not use violence and intidimation to achieve their goals, ala the "party of God."
The only real difference that I see between Laleh's philosophy and mine is our approach. She favors the the over-night approach to eradicate Islamist groups, whereas I think a great majority of Iranians are turned off to Islamic groups anyway (perhaps turned off to Islam itslef) and so we don't need to officially ban all Islamic groups (only the hateful and violent ones). And over time, the peaceful ones will become vested into the system, i.e., co-opted.
In a post-IRI period, Hezollahis will become politically impotent in Iran (as opposed to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia where extremists represent the future). And over time, the Iranian Hezbollahis will become as irrelevant as the American KKK (they are both of the same ilk anyway).
This is because the criminal mullahs, in their abject greed and treason against the Iranian nation, have done us one favor: they have shown us that Islam and Islamic holy men must be removed from all houses of government, without exception. That's the only positive to come out of the malignant cancer of the "Islamic Republic."
Halo-wearing CASMII lobbyist
by Fred on Fri Jun 05, 2009 06:03 PM PDTCASMII lobby employee, UK branch, says: “Fred, go get an honest job now, my dear, your days are numbered in Israel lobby!”
With her fortune-telling powers, the CASMII lobby employee sounds like a certain halo wearing pint sized rabid Islamist. CASMII lobby employees are just marvelous.
"Obfuscation"
by Sassan (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 05:51 PM PDTThe only people on this thread, and many other threads, who are blatantly guilty of pure unadulterated "obfuscation" are the Islamists who try so very hard to distort the picture that really exists in Iran. In so doing, they support, in a very underhanded way, the un-Iranian agenda of the barbaric hezbollahis in Tehran!
And it takes a herculian amount of HYPOCRACY and GALL (and sheer poroyee) to call anti-regime commentators as somehow engaing in obfuscation. This "Ostaad" character is one of the most deceptive commentators to EVER grace the pages of this site. He, and all the other IRI puppets like him, who promote the wickid and UN-Iranian agenda of the IRI are traitors of the Iranian nation, for their entire existence is centered around disseminating abject LIES and MISINFORMATION for the despicably un-Iranian and massively corrupt mullacracy!
Shame on you who lie for a living and get paid a handsome salary from the most evil men to rule Iran since Ghenghiz Khan! Shame on you for distorting the true picture in Iran! Shame on you for what you and your ilk has done to this noble country for 30 years! Your souls will pay for it in HELL!
And deep down I know you all sleep well at nights even with all the blood on your hands, because you people who support the massivley corrupt and perverse theocracy have ABSOLUTELY NO CONSCIENCE!!!
Captain, dito and I wish...
by Ostaad on Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:47 AM PDTI had some of your tact, decorum and adab with comes to dealing with sly bigots.
Fortunately you and I clearly see through the bigotry, hatred, obfuscation, and naked ugliness that have clearly and consistently been demonstrated by LalehGillani during this and previous discussions, but I cannot help calling it sheer bigotry and hatred while you deal with it in a much nicer manner.
Happy sailing, homie.
"lol myself'
by mehrnaz (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 04:04 PM PDTYou go lol yourself and take some time too to educate yourself if your idea of education is typos (your not you, amongst not amonst)! In return I promise to practice "your" and "amongst"!:) The quotation mark (not "quote mark"!) before "assigned" is to quote your 'centre of gravity'; you have not learnt to read! As for "ideas of grandeur", I was being charitable; I am aware of your "delusions"!
Fred, go get an honest job now, my dear, your days are numbered in Israel lobby!
Mr. Sassan Ms Gillani
by capt_ayhab on Fri Jun 05, 2009 03:50 PM PDTSorry for delay in my response, and thanks for your reply.
Democracy does not have a universally accepted definition per se, it rather posses two distinct PRINCIPLES that sets it apart from other forms of governance:
The first principle is that all members of the society (citizens) have
equal access to power.
And the second that all members (citizens) enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties.
The keyword as you see is the word [ALL MEMBERS - CITIZENS] irregardless of race, gender, religion, language, political affiliation or ethnicity. Once any of these principles are negated or abolished then it is not called democracy is it?
Ms. Gillani has explicitly and clearly excluded Islamic parties by saying[However, if “Islamists” constitute a religious group on the quest of shoving their ideology down everyone’s throat, issuing and executing fatwas to murder writers and intellectuals, and ultimately establishing
a theocracy, my answer is clear: The laws of the secular republic must face them head-on with force!]
My take from this is that she would rather SHOVE her AGENDA down the public's throat, instead of IR doing it.It is norm in any democratic society for political parties to try and indoctrinate the population with their philosophy, or is it not?
You noted[After all, we're talking about Iran here, not Switzerland. Thanks to Shia Islam and its cannonization of imam Hossein's rebellion, we must co-opt any and all fabricated emotions to emulate Islam's hereditary heroes. Thusly, any secularization of Iran has to take into account its society's makeup and tortured history and calculate a release valve for responsible Islamic voices.]
Which seems to me you are taking the same position. I do agree with you though that criminal entities are not considered a legitimate political parties, however group that some countries call terrorist, are called resistance by other people. So lets not play into stereo typing.
I see that you specifically bring up Shi'a and see their belief as contradictory to yours. I myself am not even a shi'a , but huge majority of Muslims in Iran are shi'a. One should not equate actions of small band of thugs with the entire population of a society.
In closing my arguments:
Regretfully, after so many comments, discussions and questions, I find your and Ms. Gillani's ideology no different from another form of dictatorship which is trying to disguise itself ever so unsuccessfully under the cloak of democracy. This ideology is taking advantage of ugly but prevalent hysteria over Islam and all the ugly propaganda that has been going around by personal agenda and lobby groups.
I do hope, in course of my dialogues I have not offended anyone, and if I have it has been totally unintentional. I have merely introduced my questions. I do thank your and Ms. Gillani civilized debate.
Sailing away.........
-YT
educated?
by lol myself (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:56 PM PDTYa might want to back off a little there. You sure aren't the one to be speaking of educated people.
I'm sure you meant "your" answers, not "you" answers.
I'm sure you mean "not educated NOR clever enough".
I'm sure you meant "amongst", not "amonst"
The quote mark should go after assigned, not including the word.
The commonly used term is "illusions of grandeur", not "ideas of grandeur" but then again, you are common so it might be applicable after all.
But I'm sure you'll have some usual and lame excuse for YOUR examples of bad education.
what does
by Anonymous what? (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:44 PM PDTloool mean anyway? laughing out out out out loud? before you talk about others intelligence you might want to correct yourself.
Intestinal fortitude and gall
by Fred on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:43 PM PDTCASMII lobby employee, UK branch, wrote: “You are a bigot, badly educated and full of hatred, with ideas of grandeur that go down well amonst your Arian fascist groupies gang on this website.”
When Islamists/Anti-Semites and their likeminded lefty allies including this CASMII lobby employee talk about bigotry, lack of education, hatred and fascism, one marvels at their intestinal fortitude and gall. CASMII lobbyists are just marvelous.
"Who is Laleh"?
by MEHRNAZ SHAHABI on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:04 PM PDTI must say you answers were the funniest of all your comments! Your answers 1 and 2 that you personally like, unfortunately, don't fit!! You are simply not educated and clever enough to be given a "mission to destroy Islam and the Muslim nation of Iran" or "assigned to bring down the Islamic
Republic of Iran"! loool
Answer 4: You are a bigot, badly educated and full of hatred, with ideas of grandeur that go down well amonst your Arian fascist groupies gang on this website.
In the Company of the Faithful
by LalehGillani on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:00 PM PDTAnonymousMe wrote: “Please sit down, take a deep breath and THANK GOD that anonym7, anonymfirm and others like them can't touch you… If you were in Iran, you would be arrested by individuals such as them, taken to Evin and god knows what horrible thing would then await you.”
I have had the pleasure of being in the company of “the faithful.” Your comment opens an old wound that is still bleeding, still hurting, still hunting my dreams…
How else can a “bigot” like me harbor so much “hate” for “the religion of love and peace?”
Dear Laleh
by AnonymousMe (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 01:25 PM PDTPlease sit down, take a deep breath and THANK GOD that anonym7, anonymfirm and others like them can't touch you. Then thank and appreciate the safety and freedom your host country is offering you.
If you were in Iran, you would be arrested by individuals such as them, taken to Evin and god knows what horrible thing would then await you.
I am sure you realize this. Sadly, millions of our hamvatans live in Iran and are under constant threat from the likes of Anonym7 and AnonymFirm and many others.
These people willingly arrest others, and even torture them, for the simpleset things.
One of my relatives was arrested and tortured by the likes of these folks because he openly criticized the IRI and akhoonds. The arrest was for his criticism, the torture was for discovering he had Bahai friends, and therefore automatically being a zionist spy (as Anonym7 accused you the same way.)
This could have been YOUR fate, if you were in Iran.
These individuals who defend a regime of murder, torture, oppression and zolm will never be ashamed of themselves and will never change.
Unfortunately, they are supported by much petro dollars, however they are only a few and we have the advantage of the numbers.
Their greatest fear is that the people of Iran set aside their differences and be united against the IRI with one voice. That's when the number will work against them.
As you know, history is proof that "numbers" always win.
Thank you for the great argument in your article. I will pass it on.
don't get carried away Laleh!
by Anonym7 (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 01:10 PM PDTDon't extrapolate too much! I asked whether you grew up in Iran or not?
Who Is Laleh?
by LalehGillani on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:32 PM PDTAnonym7 wrote: “I am not a Muslim. I however grew up in Iran among Muslims and Jews (in Esfahan), I have also known and talked to many people from other regions of Iran ...... I have not yet come across any Iranin (or Arab for that matter) who pronounces Kafer as Kafir ..... I have heard the westerners/Israelies pronounce it as Kafir though. Did you grow up in Iran? I don't want to speak for Ostaad, but I guess that was a test question, and you FAILED it.”
Please feel free to choose an answer from the list below as it suits you:
Answer 1: I am an Israeli operative in mission to destroy Islam and the Muslim nation of Iran.
Answer 2: I am a CIA agent assigned to bring down the Islamic Republic of Iran. I often cooperate with my counterparts in Mossad to post comments on Iranian.com.
Answer 3: I can’t read or write Penglish if my life depended on it. To me, Kafir and Kafer sound exactly the same. I don’t hear the difference when I pronounce either word. Every time I come cross Farsi written in Roman alphabet, I either ignore it altogether or use a translator to figure out what it is trying to convey.
Personally, I like answers 1 and 2. They are more intriguing… The last one is just too boring to be true!
Anonym7's Labeling Game
by XXX (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:11 PM PDTI rarely comment on this site, but I read a lot of the comments, and I thought that I this time around, I really should say something about Anonym7's labeling of everyone who disagrees with him. Sir, why is it that you label EVERYONE who disagrees with your point of view an "Israeli" or "Zionist"? Just because Ms. Gilani spells a word differently than you, she is an Israeli?!!!!!!!! Unbelievable!!!!
And this is not the first time. I have seen you label everyone who disagrees with your point of view an Israeli, etc. You know whose M.O. that is? The IRI.
Your conduct shows that you are either: 1) extremely paranoid, 2) cannot handle opposing points of view, 3) cannot have a cicilized debate with someone without diving into the gutter, or 4) take your inspiration from the IRI.
Sir, you should grow up, but more importantly: you should evolve!!
Who cares
by Sassan (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:10 PM PDThow you spell an infidel, "kafar" or "Kafir" or "Kafer," the point is that the "Islamic Republic" is a beastly and corrupt entity hellbent on the destruction of the Iranian culture and nation. And, as Iranians, we better do something about this, before the likes of Israel or America bomb us back to the stone age!
One day we will wake up and find out that some fanatic zealot in Iran decided it was his "holy duty" to nuke Israel, and they will respond by turning our tortured country into a parking lot. This fate is ahead of us if we don't remove the non-Iranian, grotesque, barbaric, and massively corrupt mullah dictatorship!
Re: Who is Kafir? (to Laleh)
by Anonym7 (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:34 AM PDTLaleh, I am not a Muslim. I however grew up in Iran among Muslims and Jews (in Esfahan), I have also known and talked to many people from other regions of Iran ...... I have not yet come across any Iranin (or Arab for that matter) who pronounces Kafer as Kafir ..... I have heard the westerners/Israelies pronounce it as Kafir though. Did you grow up in Iran?
I don't want to speak for Ostaad, but I guess that was a test question, and you FAILED it.
Who Is a Kafir?
by LalehGillani on Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:32 AM PDT//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir
Fortunately some bigots can see the light too.
by Ostaad on Fri Jun 05, 2009 09:47 AM PDT"If this is a reference to a person who believes in Islam, practices his religion...I consider such an individual a regular citizen of the republic"!
LalehGillani, is this new-found openness to the Mosalmaan Iranians the result of the bigotry liposuction that you have recently gone through? In that case you owe your healer a great deal, and I hope it lasts.
What the hell is a "Kafir" anyway?
Building an Army
by LalehGillani on Fri Jun 05, 2009 09:16 AM PDTDariush wrote: “Masoud Kazemzadeh, in another blog you defended your pro America position and you dismissed west of any wrong doing toward Iran and the region and you blamed IRI for everything gone wrong… Frankly, I don't know why are you all jumping up and down and singing bah bah and chah chah. You are not even in the same boat as laleh Gillani… Actually, i find most of her views in line with mine and i have said some of the same in the past. The difference is, I do not believe in building an army of traitors and kissers and calling it the national resistance.”
Any meaningful opposition to IRI, any attempt in overthrowing the mullahs, any solidarity amongst the dissidents must be initiated and led by Iranians inside the country.
The opposition in diaspora can serve only as a support system to disseminate information, spread news, and rally international organizations behind the resistance. Iranians in diaspora can also provide financial support to the resistance groups inside the country.
As long as I live outside Iran, I don’t see any other role for myself but serving as a voice, a loud one for that matter, to echo the cries of my countrymen. The day will come that I will go back regardless of the consequences awaiting me. Then and only then, I can serve the resistance in other ways…
masoudA
by Dariush (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 07:30 AM PDTthe respond I wrote was to masoudA not masoud2
I am yet to read the answers to my questions.
Democracy and free voting
by Samani (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 05:31 AM PDTI urge respect to all groups here. Thanks all and Mrs Gilani for providing us with some useful informaition on how to achieve democracy in Iran. If we all give hands and believe in the principles of free voting and free election like here in America there will be a good pro-democracy system in our country which then we will have calm relations with the world.
Not an "election," but a "Selection"
by BBC's Mullahs (not verified) on Fri Jun 05, 2009 01:38 AM PDTSassan writes:
"This is why the veneer of a "democratic election" in Iran is a HUGE -- HUGE! -- bonus for the mullahs, for it diminishes the legitimate basis for international support against the clerical regime. The vision of a smiling mullah (Khatami) as an "elected" president in the Islamic Republic did very little good for Iranians, but it did A WHOLE LOT of good propaganda for the mullahs in Europe and elsewhere.
The Europeans followed the election of Khatami by giving the Nobel Peace Prize to Shirin Ebadi so as to fabricate this picture of a new and vibrant political scene in Iran. In other words, "if" the mullahs succeed at selling the idea that Iran is a "quasi-democracy," it helps them enormously in deflating international pressure!"
I could not have said it any better!
STAY HOME ON SHAM "SELECTION" DAY!
AND HUMILIATE THE FASCIST MULLAH DICTATORSHIP!
masoud2
by Dariush (not verified) on Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:44 PM PDTYou wrote,
"So many IRI apologists and lobbyist have non-Arabic names!! Why don't they use their real names ? I am having a hard time envisioning a hezbollahi named Dariush !! lol I think Laleh Fan said it best - there is no logic that would convince a guy/gal on payroll. You can't wake up one who pretends to be sleeping".
If I pay you a million Dollars for every penny I receive from IRI, you will still be broke at the end of the year.
You called me a hezbollahi. Thanks for the compliment.
Are you saying a hezbollahi does not have the right to speak his mind in your style of democrocy? If so, you just flushed all your claims.
As for my name, If it makes you happy, you can downgrade it to masoud.
I just read a few more of laleh gillani's responds. I found her to be more radical than I previously thought with dictatorial attitude. I tend to believe she is about to proclaim a new prophecy.
Dear Laleh
by IRAN PARAST on Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:10 PM PDTThank you for providing this forum for the exchange of ideas regarding the future of our Beloved Iran.
After reading many of these comments, it is obvious that there are essentially two (2) groups arguing their cases here: First, those who think that this present regime in Iran could potentially be reformed with time; and, the second group, those who believe that an attempt in reforming this present regime, is an exercise in futility!
Let me share with you one bit of information that may be helpful: Before coming to U.S., I lived for many years in Europe. If you have studied the history of Europe, you would have seen that for many centuries, the Church in general, and the Roman Catholic Church in particular, played a serious role in all governments throughout Europe. The governments of various nation or city states, were in some form of entanglement or collusion with their respective established churches.
However, over time, people got sick and tired of this arrangement, and they essentially brought about the separation of Church and State that we see today. You have to be mindful of the fact that many Wars had to be fought for this, and that many artrocities had to be tolerated by the masses to make this possible.
I am sure that you have heard of the Spanish Inquisition. However, there were also inquisitions conducted by the Roman Catholic Church in France, Germany, and Italy also.
The separation of Church and State that you see in the U.S. today, is the direct result of the lessons learned by the founding fathers of America from what was happening in Europe.
What I am trying to say to you is this: Over time, and as people get more and more educated, they would see the benefits of a secular government, and the fact that Government and Religion should be separated. By mixing Religion and Government, one gets the Worst of both Worlds: An ineffective and incompetent Government; and, the general Corruption of the particular esstablished Religion because of its mingling with Power!
I would like to encourage you to continue writing these very helpful articles. Nevertheless, I hope that you temper your enthusiasm with a dose of reality and practicality. Excessive hyperbole is never useful from either side.
Many thanks again, and Best of Luck to You :) - We are looking forward to your next article - Best, IRAN PARAST
Masoud Kazemzadeh
by Dariush (not verified) on Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:29 PM PDTIn another blog you defended your pro America position and you dismissed west of any wrong doing toward Iran and the region and you blamed IRI for everything gone wrong. I asked, if that is true, then what about the western atrocities toward Iran and the rest of the world prior to the existence of IRI, but you gave no answer.
You wrote here,
Khomeini was a dictator and took the power and committed many crimes. I had said this before, When Khomeini came to Iran, he put people like yourself in power, but some of you turned out to be spy and attempted a coup, then came the armed resistance and the war. What would you have done, if you were in his shoes? He did what laleh Gillani is recommending Dr. Mosaddegh should have done. Did they go too far and situation got out of control and many innocent people got hurt? Yes they did. Who is to blame? Khomeini/Rafsanjani/Khamenei/Khalkhali and many others for committing the crimes and the opposition leaders for making the wrong decisions and sacrificing their members, just as you and them are still doing.
Khomeini's source of information was radio, news paper and the people around him. He could have very well been misinformed and ill advised. He didn't travel like shah all over the world to know what was really going on and still be a Nokar.
I know an American in America who was listening to Alex Jones programs for a few months. He was so brainwashed that he thought the end of the world is coming. He built a bunker, water tank and got two generators and thousands of caned food plus guns and amunitions. So what do you expect?
Frankly, I don't know why are you all jumping up and down and singing bah bah and chah chah. You are not even in the same boat as laleh Gillani. If she is not putting up the nationalist face by using Dr. Mosadegh, knowing his legacy is the best change to unite Iranians, i find her more of a nationalist than you "the pro west", and some others who are Pahlavi lovers and a few pro Israel on this blog. Actually, i find most of her views in line with mine and i have said some of the same in the past. The difference is, I do not believe in building an army of traitors and kissers and calling it the national resistance. Just as you expect a president with proven record, the opposition must have a proven record. You can't fool people.
I like to know what would you or laleh do if you were the president of Iran and thousands of people didn't like your government and started to create chaos and armed resistance?
How would you deal with west and east? If you belive in independence as Mosaddegh did, they may not leave you alone, as they didn't leave him alone and we might face pressure, war and sanctions as he did and we do?
limit extremism
by Samani (not verified) on Thu Jun 04, 2009 07:39 PM PDTWell said Sassan,
political Islam in its extreme form is a tragedy which should be avoided at any cost. If we want to establish democracy in Iran we should limit extremism and promote parliamentarism and free election.
Moreover...
by Sassan (not verified) on Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:26 PM PDTI also think that in a secular society, specially in Iran, we must allow "some space" for a responsible "Islam party" to channel their voices (if not aggression), and thereby, reduce the political pressure cooker. Otherwise, if Islamists are outlawed completely, I'm afraid it will ultimately lead to underground movements, which will inevitably manifest itself into violence (and terrorism) against the state.
After all, we're talking about Iran here, not Switzerland. Thanks to Shia Islam and its cannonization of imam Hossein's rebellion, we must co-opt any and all fabricated emotions to emulate Islam's hereditary heroes. Thusly, any secularization of Iran has to take into account its society's makeup and tortured history and calculate a release valve for responsible Islamic voices.
Having said all that, a future secular government of Iran will eventually solve the "political Islam" problem as I believe the barbaric IRI and its corrupt holymen have taught us a very costly, but valuable lesson.
Red line of Secularism
by Sassan (not verified) on Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:03 PM PDTCaptain Ahab, I think Laleh's thinking on pluralism of political voices is actually closer to mine than you perhaps envision. When I say that Islamists will be able to join a party, as they did during Mossadegh's time (there were varying degrees of Islamist parties affiliated with Jebh-e-meli, through men like Mehdi Bazargan and even ayatollah Kashani).
I believe Laleh would outlaw Kashani's Fedayoun-e-Islam under her secular republic, as would I, for they used violence to achieve their goals and were hellbent on intimdation and destruction of the democratic process.
However, I could envision a variation of Bazargan's "Islam Party" existing under a secular constitution, so long as they respect the rule of law and swear an oath of loyalty to the constitution.
For example, a KKK-type party will never be able to present itself as a political force in America, even with its pluralism, for the simple fact that their ideological manifesto is diametrically opposed to the very basic principles of the US constitution.
If an "Islamist" party is to have a place in a future secular government in Iran, they must accept the basic tenents of the constitution, i.e., separation of church and state, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, etc.
Once they committ themselves to the constitution, then I suppose zoroastrians, Islamists, even Iranian Jews could participate in the management of the affairs of the country, for they, too, are members of society. It is when we're confronted with a kkk-type mentality, as in the Fedayoun-e-Islam, whose mantra is "government of god," (hezbollah) -- that's when we must draw a red-line and revoke their participation at all costs.
Wrapping up this Thread
by LalehGillani on Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:01 PM PDTOnce again, the time has arrived for us to part ways. I have enjoyed visiting with you on this discussion thread and would like to thank all you for your contributions. Although we might not see eye to eye on all matters concerned, our love and devotion to a motherland in her time of need is unquestionable.
I also would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to all those who came to my rescue in the heat of the discussion. I have drawn strength from your support and know full well that without you, the battle would have been lost.
Until the next time...