VIEW

Bijan A M

You wrote,
"Give it a little more time, and have an organized movement by those who live and breath democracy, these religious people will bear arms to slaughter those who have been suffocating them for so long."

How much more time do you need? The problem is not time. The problem has been the way the oppositions have been dealing with the problems from the beginning and you still don't get it. You still speak of bearing arms and slaughtering. That shows how democratic you are.

Democracy and change must come through education in order to last, not bloodshed and slaughtering. LalehGillani has thoughtful opinions, but her opinions are poised with hate and anti Islam rhetoric that will only harm the cause and it is anti democratic within itself.

Laleh, I don’t know the name of your party

Whatever it is, I’ve always been a member. There’s no direct path from theocracy to democracy but blood. Those who believe the current ruling in Iran can reform to a secular democracy are only a bunch of wishful thinking fools (sorry to say). The types of Mash Rajab and Dariush are giving too much credit to the mass’s dedication to the religion (Islam).

Give it a little more time, and have an organized movement by those who live and breath democracy, these religious people will bear arms to slaughter those who have been suffocating them for so long. How do you think millions came out, and crumbled the most powerful dictatorship in that part of the world? Whoever that says it happened because of people’s religious belief is fooling him (her)self.

Laleh jaan, keep up the good work, you are on the right track (IMHO). I am your “morid”. Many will say, you are sitting outside and scream “lengesh kon”, but all we need to do is to find, and encourage those who have access to the people on the streets, in the unions, in mosques, in schools,  government offices, villages, ….to spread the voice of freedom and democracy. I know it’s doable because some determined akhoond did it just by some simple cassette tapes. There is enough diversity in our nation, and there is enough oppression to make the conditions right. All that’s missing is a little more educating and a spark from within. Any attempt by us (the outsiders) to ignite the spark will backfire (IMHO). It has to be from within. God forbid foreign intervention as it will postpone our freedom for decades to come.

I’m hopeful that the sword you referred to will be lifted from our throats by stabbing to death the swordsman. He will never lift it by our begging or on his own free will.

Many thanks for your blog.

Iranian Politicians

Mash Rajab wrote: “WHat if the opposing force in prison grows popular and destabilizes your government? Oh I think you will put it in the golden plate an dserve it to opposition!”

I understand your apprehension. Yes, it is hard to believe. I have mentioned it one time on this thread but will repeat once again:

Iranian politicians have not reached the level of maturity required for a democracy. In a democratic society, once a politician is voted out of the office, he must be ready to pack his bags and go home. He must embrace the fact that he is now just a regular citizen.

The norm in our country has been this: our politicians resort to anything and everything to stay in power. Their efforts include but are not limited to coups and mass murders. Consequently, the opposition has no other option left but resort to violence. Once a secular democracy is established in our country, we must work together to make it work.

Because of my big mouth, I have no aspirations to hold a political office. I enjoy speaking my mind and don’t cater to “political correctness.”

Exporting IRI's Islamic Revolution

Laleh: I wouldn't bother aiming for a "discussion" with Mash Rajab and his kind. These people are not interested, nor here to have a "logical discussion". They are posting comments in this thread to further IRI's agenda.

An example quote of what He thinks is his masterpiece of a "logical" point: :-)

"in a secular society, a majority who happen to be religious is put in power by vast majority popular vote. Then a minority who are REALLLLY secular with some special interest makde all noise that this government is NOT compatible with today's political orders. Then the minority with the help of ? try to legitimize why they should bring down the legitimate government."

The above logic is naturally atrocious. And, if the above refers to IRI then: Needless to say that IRI, from Day one back in 1979, has Never been a legitimate government; only an Islamist government whose founder and Supreme Lead Murderer Akhoond Khomeini saw it necessarily to lie and deceive Iranians, through his Islam and Political Invention to gain power. After gaining power, Akhoond Khomeini did a 180 degrees turn, ordering the execution of thousands upon thousands of Iranian citizens who opposed his Islamic Dictatorship. He had help from people such as Mash Rajab.

It was only a maximum of 4 million out of a population of 35 million back in 1979 who greeted Khomeini. Soon after, and on a number of occasions, I distinctly remember Khomeini moving his arms/hands up and down on the crowd, in a gesture of "a wave", saying: "khak too saretoon" to the simpleton crowd who was jubilantly greeting him.

Mash Rajab is one of those people I'd question as to why they have moved to the West and try to further IRI's agenda whilst living in Western Secular Democracies, which his pro-Mollah Iranian and Foreign Masters wish to undermine.

Mash Rajab is also a perfect example of one of those people I mentioned earlier, who you said should be saved and protected from choosing IRI's Islamic Republic.

See the link below as an example of how and why people like Mash Rajabi try to export IRI's "legitimate Islamic Government and the Revolution" outside Iran - the export of the Islamic Government is in fact a mandate in the current Mollah Constitution:

Parvin Ahmadinejad, the president's sister: "The issue interesting Imam Khomeini most was that the Islamic revolution should not be entrapped within the boundaries of Iran...the ninth government has managed to realize this goal...Today someone has come to manage the affairs who wants to take Islam into the heart of Europe...In the past there were people who said that religion has nothing to do with freedom, but freedom is within the very core of the religion of Islam..."

//www.asriran.com/fa/pages/?cid=74482

None of the four presidential entertainers (aka candidates) would be much different to Ahmadinejad, only their approach would be more or less belligerent and obvious, depending on orders from Ali Khamenei.

As for what Iranians in Iran really want (majority or minority), unless we have a Fair and Valid Referendum, which gives options, the claims of IRI's proponents that Iranians are Muslim hence will support an Islamic Government or Regime will remain to be speculation.

After all, if IRI has been so confident that Iranians in Iran (and outside), by majority, will continue to desire an Islamic Republic Regime, then why does IRI not allow a Referendum overseen by an independent international observors? Why does IRI continuously shift the focus to the Palestinians?

Mashty

I think yor impression of the scenario that laleh just described for you is as unreal and exaggerated notionas that you and everyone else has of The islam being embraced by the majority of the iranians and i think your making that seem as the "facts on the ground" is getting way too rusty and old.

I really do not think you have any way of proving that, and as a matter of fact there are no conclusive surveys and tolls that can prove that fact, but based on what has been observed by recent travellers and those who have lived there for some years it is more likely the case that the number of people who oppose islam, who have changed their views of it, as their religion vs those who accept it, will be pretty much equal.

You know, You can not ignore the stories you hear everyone who has come back from iran VISITING THEIR AMOO AND KHALE, as pure falsehood, since they also live in that country and those same amoo and khalehs are part of that population and you can no longer dismiss their complaints about the regime. It is no longer tehran vs Other parts of iran. Opposition to religion and religion-based government can be seen and heard everywhere.

Re: Laleh's euphoric fantasies

Laleh says:
I will arrest them, charge them publicly, and try them in open court. They will be provided counsel and all legal means to defend themselves.
..................

Yea right; by the tone of your voice, you are running a one man show (oh I think they call it dictatorship) and you first have to bribe your close nets to listen to you. Once you do that, corruption arises and......etc.

Or, WHat if the opposing force in prison grows popular and destabilizes your government? Oh I think you will put it in the golden plate an dserve it to opposition!

What Would I Do?

Dariush wrote: “You didn't answer my question. What will you do if thousands take arms and fight your government. Will you not execute them?”

I will arrest them, charge them publicly, and try them in open court. They will be provided counsel and all legal means to defend themselves. I will invite international human rights organizations to have full access to the prisoners through announced or unannounced visits.

The prisoners will be judged by a panel of juries of their peers hand-selected by the counsel and the prosecutor. I oppose death penalty and will not execute another human being regardless of his crime.

Re: "sword of Islam"?

These are low blows. We don't live in 1400 years ago. Sword is now replaced with Laser and Taser guns and widely used in every modern society. If you want to shake the leaves with these low blows, you are just proving my simple point!

This really shows that how out of touch you are with today's realities in vatan. DOn't judge the whole Iran by just couple of visits to your Amoo joon and cousins like I did too. There is vast majority all over Iran who do not give a hoot to what I (a westerner) think about their dillema!

Wake up and construct Iran the right way or you will be burned in your hatred like many others just like sigarette killing smokers silently!

LalehGillani

You didn't answer my question. What will you do if thousands take arms and fight your government. Will you not execute them?

You don't have much in common with Bazargan and Jebheyeh Melli. If Bazargan had such radical opinion, he wouldn't have let his presidency go and would have done what MEK did.

Your opposing and disrespect of the majority's religion show how democratic you are. That is without any power. I cannot imagine how it would be with power.

You wrote,
"Lift the sword of Islam from our throats and watch your beloved “majority” crumble! As long as you have to resort to oppressing, imprisoning, torturing, and murdering any opposing voices, your claim of having the majority support is baseless. "

By taking the sword you mean increasing the freedom?
That is what people want. If they are given more freedom, that will reduce tension and unite people.

Oppressing, imprisoning, torturing and murdering any opposition voices has actually increased the oppositions voice.

Just because many are unhappy about the economy or have some other issues, doesn't mean they are anti Islam and in your camp.

No one is against freedom and human rights but, your problems are deeper than that.

Quote of the year

"Lift the sword of Islam from our throats and watch your beloved “majority” crumble! As long as you have to resort to oppressing, imprisoning, torturing, and murdering any opposing voices, your claim of having the majority support is baseless. "

How true and well said!

Your Logic is the Flaw!

Mash Rajab wrote: “in a secular society, a majority who happen to be religious is put in power by vast majority popular vote. Then a minority who are REALLLLY secular with some special interest makde all noise that this government is NOT compatible with today's political orders. Then the minority with the help of ? try to legitimize why they should bring down the legitimate government. DO you see the flaw?”

The only flaw I see is in your logic.

1. The reason that I oppose IRI isn’t because it isn’t “compatible with today’s political orders.” I oppose IRI because of thirty years of looting and murdering.

2. Because IRI is a government whose survival depends on how efficiently and effectively it can silence and kill its citizens, the regime has become illegitimate.

3. It is the patriotic duty of every Iranian to oppose the current illegitimate government and oppose it in any shape and form.

Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is!

Mash Rajab wrote: “I need to say that you have played your last card - stabbing Islam right at the root! The outcome may be surprising though! You may shake some loose leaves, BUT, will harden the majority in what they believed!!!!!!!”

Lift the sword of Islam from our throats and watch your beloved “majority” crumble! As long as you have to resort to oppressing, imprisoning, torturing, and murdering any opposing voices, your claim of having the majority support is baseless.

You can buy loyalty of the believers to fill up your Friday prayers. You can pay off thugs to storm the streets. You can fool the masses with your “reform” slogans. But as long as you rule by the sword, you are nothing but another dictator.

Sabz, Laleh G., Darish, MK...you're all deranged! Why?

Take a look at what Sabz say:
"A Secular Democracy means the Separation of State and Religion based on a Secular Constitution. It means Islamic or religious laws should Not be imposed and a particular religion or ethnic group should not be given preference over another. But, a Secular Democracy does not mean the exclusion of political parties based on their beliefs, religion (any religion), ethnicity and so on."

This is the flaw with democracy as you define it and I explaine why as follows:

in a secular society, a majority who happen to be religious is put in power by vast majority popular vote. Then a minority who are REALLLLY secular with some special interest makde all noise that this government is NOT compatible with today's political orders. Then the minority with the help of ? try to legitimize why they should bring down the legitimate government.

DO you see the flaw?

Here is another perversion:
you psuedo-intellects think that IT IS WRONG to say that iran is a shia (muslim) country. Well, wake up boys! It is...and whether it is to your taste or not, that majoritybelieve in some principles that unfortunately are in contradiction with yours. That is why you and I are sitting outside the ring and thesy are in the ring.

You know you stand NO chance in being even a little weight against the ruling power in Iran as long as you keep insisting on talking in different language. You al resonate and reinforce each others' perverted take on today's Iran that is not based on majore psyche of Iranian people inside. This people have literally eaten snake and become a Cobra! No one can talk them into another overhaul. You just do not have any winning cards in hand. However, I need to say that you have played your last card - stabbing Islam right at the root! The outcome may be surprising though! You may shake some loose leaves, BUT, will harden the majority in what they believed!!!!!!!

Masoud Kazemzadeh

You asked me a question and I answer it. You do not dictate how I should answer. This is not a U.S. court of law. We are free to answer however we like and I don't expect you to answer "yes or no" to my questions.

Again, you blamed Khomeini for all that went wrong, and U.S. misconducts prior to the revolution and after the revolution had nothing to do with it. Khomeini didn't even know about the hostage taking until after the facts and he was even against it until he was ill advised and this incident proves who was really running the country and what and how he was informed about the affairs. He was not a politician of course, therefore, he had faith in educated like yourself, but he became disappointed.

You want me to answer "yes or no", but you just wrote pages and still haven't said it directly, what you will do when thousands take arms against your government? You just look in your crystal ball and think everything will go as you dream. Well, that is the dream we all had.

You wrote, U.S. wanted to be a friend in 1979. Yes, that is what they said in 1953 also and rest of the times. The coup, the savak, the shah and much more were their friendship presents. Then they extended their friendship in 1979 with war, sanctions, and much more.

You tell me one thing that they have given Iran, without demanding 1000 times of that, before or after? You keep rubbing this western democracy to our face. Well, they had the chance to apply that to Iran for 100 years. What did they do instead? who knew exactly what carter's intentions were? Who knew if he can live up to it? Are you sure that wasn't fooling and had nothing to do with what was coming and changing team a head of time?
Then you say Iranians with such bitter experiences should have trusted carter?

You wrote,
"In the post-revolution Iran, we will not interfere in the internal affairs of other countries."

So in your post-revolution Iran, Iran will shut up and put up?

Then you wrote,
"And we will not allow others to interfere in our internal affairs.
You? You will not?

You wrote,
"We will not be in war with anyone. We will not try to overthrow anyone"

Iran didn't want war with anyone! Shouldn't people be able to practice freedom of speech in a free world?
West has said it openly that they want communist, Islam and many governments gone. So do those governments have raged war on west? No
What happened after all? West getting rid of Saddam and Taliban.
In your post-revolution Iran, Iran should not tell the truth about Saddam and Taliban leaders, but west has the right to kill them and millions of innocent people?

I agree with a constitutional laws that overwrites any other laws as Kourosh wrote (not west). But with respect to your other views, you can mold them and paint them with fancy words and pleasing names such as Jebheyeh Melli as much as you want to suit west in order to avoid confrontation, at the end what you offer is another poppet government. That is why you failed then! and that is why you haven't been able to sell your ideas since then!
I don't think that this is the kind of seeds Dr. Mosaddegh has planted!!!

By the way, I am a fan of Bazargan and Jebheyeh Melli.

Reform Movement’s Dream

capt_ayhab wrote: “Well written constitution protects itself because it is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND."

I couldn’t agree more. Safeguards must be established and woven into the core principles of the constitution once a secular democracy is established.

Yet again, the reform movement opposes and impedes the dream of establishing a secular democracy in Iran. Clearly the continuation of the current theocracy is the lifeline of the reform movement.

The dream of morphing the current Islamic Republic into a democracy is a fallacy. Political ambitions of Islam contradict the principles of democracy but thrive in a theocracy.

Regretfully

Quote form Ms. Gillani[When the sword of Islam is lifted from our throats, Iranians are free
to decide what they believe in. Even if the majority of our population decides to remain Muslim, this choice doesn’t excuse their belligerent behavior towards non-Muslims.

For a moment there you sounded exactly like Pamela Geller, Are you sure you ladies are not twin sisters?

-YT

Direct Answer

Ms. Gillani you noted[How do we protect the republic and all citizens of the country from sharia laws? What can stop an Islamic
party from winning the majority seats in a parliament in order to pass laws and amend the constitution?]

Excellent question and concern. I do not calim to be a constitutional lawyer, nor I see anyone in this thread[that I know of] who is one. I personally am familiar with the constitution of US, and the method by which an amendment is approved, and ratified. allow me to quote from : //www.usconstitution.net/constam.html#process

[One method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of
some long outstanding amendments, such as the
27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd)....]

Keep in mind that US has federal system of government, hence ratification by states is mandatory and matter of law.

Asides from legislative branch, as you know there is Judiciary branch which has the responsibility of interpreting the laws, amendments and regulation, for contradiction WITH constitution itself. This branch works as safety for the legislative branch[The house and senate].

Since Iran is not and is not going to be Federal system, then rule of 2/3 can be changed to make certain amendments that might contradict constitution are not passed.

Ironically, as a matter of information for you the FIRST amendment to US constitution is FREEDOM OF RELIGION, heck of deal i should say !

Again keep in mind, process is lengthy and the proposed amendment can be challenged in court of law. Final word in a democracy lies with LAW, nothing else.

To top it all off, once clearly and decisively the religion[including religious law such as sharia] is separated from the government, this automatically will prevent any amendments to be passed which is religious in nature, wouldn't it? ;-)

Well written constitution protects itself because it is THE SUPREME LAW OF  THE LAND.

DISCLAIMER: I am not proposing US system of government for Iran, I am merely making an example since I am not a constitutional lawyer.

Regards

-YT

XXX

If you are not Israeli/pro Israeli why all of a sudden you jumped out of nowhere and showed so much sensitivity to your IMAGINARY idea of me labeling Laleh as "Zionist" and "Israeli". My comment to her had NO such indication whatsoever, do you understand that? Here is my comment again:
________________________
"Laleh, I am not a Muslim. I however grew up in Iran among Muslims and Jews (in Esfahan), I have also known and talked to many people from other regions of Iran ...... I have not yet come across any Iranin (or Arab for that matter) who pronounces Kafer as Kafir ..... I have heard the westerners/Israelies pronounce it as Kafir though. Did you grow up in Iran?
I don't want to speak for Ostaad, but I guess that was a test question, and you FAILED it. "
__________________________

The Common Link

Capt_ayhab wrote: “Your example of Afghanistan is categorically irrelevant to the discussion here and it even more irrelevant to situation in Iran. Afghanistan does not posses the maturity and education level in Iran, nor the system of government is any similar to Iran. Their government system mostly been of tribal sectors compared to Iran which traditionally has had strong central government in past 2500 years. Although I must confess that they share marginal similarities.”

I agree with all the differences you outlined in your comment. However, there is one common factor that you have overlooked: Islam.

Islam is synonymous with politics. No matter which country we are talking about and what demographics we are dealing with, when Islam is the driving force for a political party, the outcome is the same: Islam’s political ambitions are boundless. Islamic parties will adapt to any social and political circumstances in order to advance their agenda.

I apologize to you, sir, if my comments have left you with the impression that I consider you “belligerent and argumentative.” Far from it! I enjoy having a conversation with you and admire your approach.

The issue at hand still remains unanswered: How do we protect the republic and all citizens of the country from sharia laws? What can stop an Islamic party from winning the majority seats in a parliament in order to pass laws and amend the constitution?

Time to Evolve!

Sabz wrote: “I also think we need a Fair and Valid referendum in Iran, which gives options, for people to choose/decide if they, by majority, still want an Islamic government and sharia laws. If they by a clear majority still want it, then it is futile to want to save or protect this majority. Only those Iranian residents, outside Iran, who support sharia laws and an Islamic government in Iran would need to go back and live there.”

Although I agree with several points you raised in your comment, I must take exception with the above statement. Please allow me to elaborate:

Iranian society has been under the influence of Islam for centuries, and mullahs have manipulated the masses and the system in different degrees long before IRI was established. The last thirty years has been the climax of such influence. It is clearly time for the Iranian society to evolve out of Islam and embrace the idealism of equality, human rights, and freedom.

For centuries, Iranian political activists and intellectuals have catered to Islam by demonstrating “sensitivity” to the religion of the majority. There have been instances during which time Islam has been criticized and exposed. However, these voices have been rapidly silenced through violence. In the process, mullahs have become bolder and bolder.

When the sword of Islam is lifted from our throats, Iranians are free to decide what they believe in. Even if the majority of our population decides to remain Muslim, this choice doesn’t excuse their belligerent behavior towards non-Muslims.

All Iranians regardless of their religion have the right to live in their homeland. I refuse to give up my birthright.

Mr. Sassan Ms. Gillani

Mr. Sassan

You noted[ Frankly, I'm starting to think you just want to argue for the sake of "Obfuscation."]

I regret to see that you are calling my honest opinion as obfuscation. You are entitled to what you think about me and I am not going to take defensive posture to defend my self.

I told you as I saw it, for I see through the statement. As I said in my last comment, you and Ms. Gillani are contradicting yourselves buy explicitly or implicitly excluding, and limiting the access of certain ideologies to your system. 

Comparing a legitimate political party, no matter how extremist they might be to KKK is absolutely irrelevant and takes more of exclusion form. Any and every political party has all the rights[protected by well designed constitution] to seek laws and regulations that they feel is in line with their doctrine[i.e. Democrats and Republicans in USA]. These rights, plus any activity to indoctrinate population with their philosophy is positively protected by LAW. One can not take that away.

KKK with all its ugly racism and bigotry, is not an illegal organization. There were times, before their membership dwindled, that they had elected members in The House and the Senate. both at state and federal level.

Even today, KKK marches , gatherings and recruitment[as despicable as it might be] are fully protected by law, so as long as they do not break any law.

Ms. Gillani,

Your example of Afghanistan is categorically irrelevant to the discussion here and it even more irrelevant to situation in Iran. Afghanistan does not posses the maturity and education level in Iran, nor the system of government is any similar to Iran. Their government system mostly been of tribal sectors compared to Iran which traditionally has had strong central government in past 2500 years. Although I must confess that they share marginal similarities.

Literacy rate in Afghanistan is a mere 24.1%[only 12% for women] with total of 24% urbanization ratio. Compared to that  of Iran which has 77%[71% female] literacy rate and 68% urbanization rate. There are great disparity between two nations in regards  to culture, literature, art, science,  traditions, economic, ethnicity and etc etc etc.

When considering these huge disparity in demographic, comparing Afghanistan to Iran would resemble comparing apples to oranges. Every country for that fact, has her own very unique demographics which only makes a MARGINAL comparison minutely relevant.

Freedom of a nation is guaranteed by a well written constitution which clearly and decisively separates government  form religion, and not by passing laws that limits access of all citizens to power and their enjoyment of freedom. Asides from that, constitution itself is an evolutionary process, by the virtue of amendments, WHICH does not limit access of the citizens to power. Amendment facilitate the access to equality[i.e. US constitution] and not limits them. 

I had decided not to comment in this thread, but after reading your comment and your rather polite accusation of calling me belligerent and argumentative I decided to share with you my rebuttal.

Regards

Source: CIA fact book 

-YT

Dariush

Dariush,

I am here. I was finishing an article analyzing the Ahmadi-Moussavi debate. If it gets accepted for publication, I will post a link to the article. I did look at your earlier post. My time is limited, so I only answer those that I think have some value for the readers of this site.

You did not provide direct answers to my questions. All I asked were simple yes or no answers. Instead you did safsateh. Because your lack of honest direct answers were so transparent to all the readers, I did not think, my reply was necessary. But now that you insist.

D:

In another blog you defended your pro America position and you dismissed west of any wrong doing toward Iran and the region and you blamed IRI for everything gone wrong. I asked, if that is true, then what about the western atrocities toward Iran and the rest of the world prior to the existence of IRI, but you gave no answer.

MK: Your statement reminds me of the saying Khasan o Khossein har 3 dokhtaran Mouavieh-and.

ANYONE who has read my writings, knows my affiliation with Jebhe Melli, knows the BASIC fact that I, like my political affiliation, JM, oppose and condemn the U.S. role in the 1953 coup. How in the world, anyone could even write the non-sense that you write. I do NOT regard the U.S. as "Great Satan" or other utter non-sense associated with the fundamentalist regime propaganda and ideology. In my view, and it is in print, I have stated that the U.S. has done a lot of bad and a lot of good. I applaud the good, and criticize the bad.

In my opinion, the political system in the U.S. is a legitimate system. In my opinion, the political system in Iran is NOT legitimate. The velayat motlaghe faghih is a terrible brutal dictatorship. The Iranian people lack basic civil liberties, we lack freedom of the press, we lack the freedom of political parties, we lack free and democratic elections.

The rest of the stuff you wrote is such utter non-sense that I don’t think anyone significant would buy. That is why I ignored you and instead spent my time working on other stuff.

Now you insist, let me provide brief responses for your questions.

1. The first priority is to have a LEGITIMATE political system. In today’s world, this means democratic legitimacy. This means first and foremost, establishing a constitutional basis that is regarded as legitimate to vast majority of the population. On Feb 11, 1979, Khomeini enjoyed great legitimacy. Other forces were also significant and represented significant segments of the population and had participated in the revolution against the Shah. It was very possible to create legitimate system. One can look at how others did this. One could compare our case with South Africa, or Chile, or other systems created after collapse of dictatorships in the Phillipines, and Eastern Europe, etc.

The problem in Iran was that Khomeini lacked long-term vision. He was extremely good in short-term tactics, and had great ability to galvanize the masses. The decision to create a monopoly for the fanatic fundamentalist clerics, instead of a system that was pluralistic is the primary cause of the continuing opposition, violence, and chaos. Khomeini could have supported the constitution that the provisional govt wrote. Khomeini quickly changed his mind after a bunch of fanatics convinced him to instead support the reactionary and dictatorial vf constitution.

From the getgo, Khomeini did a lot of reactionary stuff. Why imposing hijab on women? Why dismissing all female judges? Why ordering the closing of Ayandegan and all the critical papers? Why the creation of Shoray Enghelab? Why the creation of Revolutionary Courts and violation of the rights of the accused to a fair trial and fair process? Why the quick executions of this or that person?

Instead of being honest, you say the utter nonsense of JM leaders being spy??????? This is the problem. False accusations.

Now let me tell you in general broad outlines what we will do after the vf is gone and we are establishing a democratic Iran.

All groups will be free to have their newspapers, their party headquarters. TV and radio should allow access to as many intellectuals and party leaders of other groups as possible. In other words, it should not be limited to one group. These steps would tell all groups that they have the freedom of expressing their opinion.

Of course we need order. Of course chaos is bad.

We need to have a provisional govt. The provisional govt should consist of as many groups as possible. The provisional govt should hold free elections for a constitutional assembly. The constitutional assembly would write a constitution that would establish fair procedures for the people electing their own representatives. That constitution would be put to a referendum for popular ratification or rejection. If accepted, then there will be free and democratic elections for the majles and presidency. The free and democratic elections for say ostandar and shahrdar, etc.

The provisional govt and the democratically elected govt has to keep order and the people safe from hooligans. When the people regard the govt as legitimate, they will support the govt and oppose and condemn the hooligans. But if the govt is illegitimate, then there will be support for those who resist. The continuing struggles will cause further problems.

2. It is the role of the govt to protect the national interests. It is the role of the govt to prevent foreign govts to interfere. The Carter administration wanted to have good relations with the govt in Iran after the Shah. It was Khomeini’s fault that he kept creating enemies needlessly. Why the hell he supported the invasion of the US embassy and holding them hostages for 444 days???? Was it to protect Iran from American interference or was it due to the desire to get rid of Bazargan and then to impose the un-popular and terribly dictatorial vf constitution? Why the hell Khomeini rejected Hasan al Bakr’s desire to come to Iran for an official visit and begin normal relations between Iran and Iraq; instead Khomeini repeatedly called for the Iraqis to rise up and overthrow the govt in Iraq???? Why publicly call for the export of the revolution and provide assistance to groups to overthrow and use violence in various countries?? You see, as the saying goes, kerm az derakhteh. It was Khomeini and his stupid policies that created all the hostilities and wars and violence. All these extremism and fanaticism and terrorism are still going on.

In the post-fundamentalist Iran, we will NOT interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. And we will not allow others to interfere in our internal affairs. We will not be in war with anyone. We will not try to overthrow anyone.

The post-fundamentalist Iran will be democratic domestically and be part of the globe internationally and peacefully. We will have a strong military for our defense. We will NOT say death to America, or death to Israel, or death to Saudi monarchy, or this or that.

In 1951-53, we were struggling to establish our independence from British colonial control of Iran. In 1979, the US accepted our independence. Khomeini’s faulty understanding of the world, and his expansionist desire to export his reactionary vision, have cost our people sooooooooo much blood, pain, and loss.

MK

"Anonym7"

I think that you just proved my comment by labeling ME an "Israeli, / pro Israel" person. I haven't written an article here, haven't discussed politics, and haven't said a word about the Middle East conflict (which is, incidentally, totally irrelevant to the writer's piece). How do you know I am "pro-Israel"? Does criticizing YOU automatically makes a person "pro Israel"?!!!! And can you tell us who you are you all mighty one who is above all criticism? Are you the embodiment of all that is anti_Israeli and pro-freedom that every crticism of YOU is tantamount to an act of being "pro-Israel"?!!!!

Sir, you are a ridiculous person!!!

"Sabz" is right

A couple of comments below... "Sabz" is right.
What if the majority "Do" want a more or less secular rule?
What is to be done then??????
Give in ... or force them in to minority rule?

where is Masoud kazemzadeh?

I asked these question and haven't got any answer yet. Are these questions too hard to answer?

1- I like to know what would you or any opposition group will do, if you had the power and thousands of people didn't like your government and started to create chaos and armed resistance?"

2- How would you deal with west and east, if you believe in independence as Mosaddegh did? They may not leave you alone, as they didn't leave him alone and we might face pressure, war and sanctions as he did and we do?"

LalehGillani, If Islam or religion was the problem all non muslim or communist countries should have been alright. In my opinion, it is greed, self interest and politic the root of the problems.

Attacking Islam is not going to help the cause, if the cause is democrocy. Bush declared a crusade. It didn't work. It would be better to spend the energy on promoting democrocy rather than fighting people's faith that will backfire.

Using the support of traitors, liars, thieves, murderers and etc is the opposition is not the kind of seeds Mosaddegh planted. They are after their personal interests. Using any means is what MKO preached and practiced, see where it has taken them.

Laleh: Some Thoughts

A Secular Democracy means the Separation of State and Religion based on a Secular Constitution. It means Islamic or religious laws should Not be imposed and a particular religion or ethnic group should not be given preference over another. But, a Secular Democracy does not mean the exclusion of political parties based on their beliefs, religion (any religion), ethnicity and so on.

Having said that, I understand your point and agree that the influence of mollahs in Iran needs to be reined in, more so because history has shown that Islam and Politics have been mostly inseparable. Otherwise, they will continue to spread their influence using religion as the basis for passing sharia laws, which will be acceptable to certain segment of the Iranian society.

I think we really need to look at the 1906 and of course the present Mollah Constitutions, which had/have very strong Islamic components (particularly Shia Islam i.e. Jafari sect). Plus, the present Constitution incorporates Khomeini's invention and doctrine of Velayate Faghih and the Vali-e Faghih.

Culturally, one approach to begin to put Iran and Iranians on a path to a Secular Democracy is to stop stating the obvious (as some like to do) that Iran is a Shia Moslem country, therefore both reinforcing and justifying Political Islam. We know that IRI through its actions in every imaginable area e.g. education, laws, family values, media, Islamic organizations (bonyads for instance), holidays/mournings, etc... continues to embed Islamic values/traditions inside and gradually outside Iran. So, perhaps, the mentioned areas as examples, can be used by those who want a secular democracy to devise counter-strategies.

I also think we need a Fair and Valid referendum in Iran, which gives options, for people to choose/decide if they, by majority, still want an Islamic government and sharia laws. If they by a clear majority still want it, then it is futile to want to save or protect this majority. Only those Iranian residents, outside Iran, who support sharia laws and an Islamic government in Iran would need to go back and live there.

1Society

1society:

"Look how much it influences the US Politics. Can you imagine if Christian Right was banned by law in US politics? There would be a revolution!!!"

US Constitution, unlike IRI and 1906 Iranian Constitutions, is a Secular one with secular laws (State and Religion are clearly separated). US constitution specifies that: "“no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States”. Moreover, in the Bill of Rights, First Amendment: addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congressional establishment of a religion over another religion through Law and protecting the right to free exercise of religion). Freedom to exercise religion is meant in a Private sense, not a political sense.

"Just look at Turkey, and you will understand that even after 80 years of policies like Reza Shah, the country is getting more and more Islamic."

Again, what is preventing Turkey from becoming an Islamist State, similar to Iran, is Turkey's Secular Constitution, and the fact that the founders and foundation of the Islamic party in Turkey has a very different make-up to that of Mollahs in Iran. Turkey keeps a very close eye on Islamists movements including sermons in mosques.

"This is why the regime opposition has no credibility, no accomplishments and no future. If there is to be any change, it will come from inside Iran and will be most likely gradual."

A few (other) reasons why regime's opposition has little credibility, etc...:

1. They have had a lack of an overall Leadership problem;
2. They have not been able to unite on the principles of a secular, democratic Iran;
3. There has been much in-fighting, with IRI adding fuel to fire through different means including their infiltrators.

I hope you are right about change from inside Iran, although I very much doubt that the change will be in a form of a reformist movement of political Islam. IRI and Islamists know, just as you do, that the moment they begin any type of meaningful and genuine reform, their power-base and stranglehold on Iranians and the society will be threatened. In other words, Reform, for them, is a dangerous move. So far, the only "gradual" change I've seen is that mollahs, with the help of certain Iranians and foreign powers, have managed to take their "Islamic democracy" propaganda outside Iran, while continuing to suffocate Iranians inside Iran.

Easy Israeil/pro Israeli Freind (to XXX)

XXX says: "Sir, why is it that you label EVERYONE who disagrees with your point of view an "Israeli" or "Zionist"? Just because Ms. Gilani spells a word differently than you, she is an Israeli?!!!!!!!!"

I neither called her Israeli, nor Zionist. I merely asked whether she grew up in Iran. You need to look at my original comment to her instead of reading her irrelevant reply to me.

What Are We Fighting for?

capt_ayhab wrote: “My take from this is that she would rather SHOVE her AGENDA down the public's throat, instead of IR doing it. It is norm in any democratic society for political parties to try and indoctrinate the population with their philosophy, or is it not?“

In Afghanistan, Shi'a political parties successfully won seats in the parliament and used the system to pass laws that is abusive and oppressive towards women and children. One night Afghani women went to bed having the freedom to leave their houses. The next morning they woke up to find out that they needed their husbands' permission to set foot outside the house.

On the same day, they also found out that it was legal for their husbands to rape them. Thanks to the success of Islamic parties, Afghani women also lost many other legal rights such as legal custody over their children after certain age.

Is this what we are fighting for? Are we going to establish a democracy so that Islamic parties can run for office to pass laws to oppress women all over again?

If you don’t like my political agenda, please kindly suggest another one, a solution that will protect the republic and all of its citizens from Sharia laws.

demcracy is vital

Thank you dear L.Gilani and Captain Ayhab and all the rest for providing us information about how to do democracy in our country and we all hope that by helping the people we can establish a government wehre all people and group can vote and there will be no discords with the international laws of human rights. This is the wish of each and every Persian living abroad.