IDEAS

Dear capt_ayhab

As we say in Farsi: Khar Khodeti

You started all of this, and now you are reaping what you have sown - Again, Pure And Simple!!

Mr. R2D2

Either you can refute, alongside with your devout defenders, or you are MAN enough to admit to your childish, arrogant, and stupidly ignorant judgmental  comment.

What is it going to be? more of your arrogant and ignorant judgmental comment? OR are you going to elevate your stale being to larger than life teachings of a man called [Rumi] you claim to adhere?

You call the shots, and I shall reload

-YT 

Dear Ramona

You have enough to learn :)

Yes my dear - I sincerely hope that your eyes could only see,

Sincerely,

R D

P.S. You are a gifted person, but your eyes are not totally opened as they should be - This is not a criticism, but only an observation :)

وقتی با یک انگشت به سوی کسی اشاره می کنید

R2-D2, I'm still waiting for you to bring it to light!  :-)

As for your other comment, my last request was specifically addressed to you. When you point one finger at someone else to criticize or "show them", the other three fingers are pointed back at yourself. 

I was hoping to learn more from your claimed "spirit of humility."

Alas!

I wish Nur would step in and nourish our souls with another golden nugget now!

capt_ayhab

Blah Blah Blah :)

Yes .....

                      Blah Blah Blah :)

P.S. As the Great Sheikh Sa'adi said: Khare Issa Garash Be Make' Barand, Cho Baz Gardad, Haman Khar Bashad

Regardless of how much you may have studied Mowlana, unfortunately, it has had absolutely no positive effect on you - Again, Pure And Simple :) !!

R2D2

While you people are busy petting each other in the back for slandering and distracting this beautifully written and wonderfully organized thread by Ms. Ramona, allow me tell you what I think of your sadly uneducated, uncivilized and sorry excuse of a self proclaimed critiques.......I rather stop.........

May I suggest a subject.......................?

Go critique on some reality show  or something, this subject is well beyond your comprehension and intellect.

Good day boys

-YT 

Ramona

My main aim of commenting in your blog, was to bring to light the significance of the Mowlana's Poem that was posted by Massoud below :)

When I read the comments by various people, including yours, I noticed that there were no specific references to it :)

I have a copy of The Divan-e Shams, and The Massnavi at my home - I am fully aware of the wonderful poems in both books, the Ghazaliats, etc., and have been reading them for the past thirty (30) years - The significance of the poem that was posted by Massoud is that many students of Mowlana know it by heart, and quote it regularly :)

Sincerely,

R D

P.S. With reference to the other matter that you raised regarding capt_ayhab, aka Jo, he should know better than to engage in personal attacks of others - Pure And Simple!!

R2D2

Thanks again for your correction of a name! At least you're consistent about sticking to form rather than content. I'm sure Massoud knows that I mean no disrespect if I called him by a similar name, and has already acknowledged my appreciation of the relevancy of his poem and that's good enough for me.

As for the rest of your comment, I fail to find your true understanding of the meaning of the poem in question.

As far as I know all of Mowlana's poems have many different layers of meaning wrapped in symbols, parodies, stories, paradoxes and the like. None of them are self-explanatory as you implicate. Or else, you may wish to offer your reflective thoughts and understanding about the essence of Erfan and path of love so we can learn some "meaning" from you.

I would appreciate it if you can meaningfully contribute your knowledge of Erfan and Sufism rather than making general statements any Iranian elementary school student knows.

Last, but not least, I respectfully request that you stop bickering, accusing, exposing, defending or personally affronting anyone on this page.

Thank you,

Ramona

capt_ayhab

Humility is too much of a gentleman to blow the cover off the farce that you have been  up to :) To anyone who has the smallest bit of brain, it's quite obvious that you and Jo are one and the same person!

In this blog: An open letter to all, you outlined last week the conditions of your suspension for being abusive to other people! Furthermore, I left a comment there for you expressing that no one has the right to engage in personal attacks, regardless of how right or wrong one may be! You never responded to that comment :)

Let me just say one other thing: I am a learning student, and like others, have much to learn. However, if you truly knew who Humility was, you, and your alter ego Jo, wouldn't be saying the type of garbage about him, as you have done in your comments below!

I hope you get the message,

Sincerely,

R D

P.S. If I were you, I would be man enough to own up to my own comments - Not hide behind a silly username like Jo :) !

Ramona

First of all, the poem that was posted was by Massoud and not Mehrdard :)

Secondly, this poem is the very foundation of not only the beliefs of Mowlana himself, but also what Mysticism in general, and Sufism in particular, are all about :)

The very value and greatness of this poem is not only in its simplicity, but also in its very clarity - As you may know, with many Sufi poets, their messages are wrapped in a great deal of complicated verbiage - With this poem it is not!

As I indicated earlier, one can read this poem, and without any ambiguity, understand fully not only Mowlana's faith and beliefs, but also the very basis of Sufism itself!

Sincerely,

R D

P.S. If you have any questions, please let me know - I'll gladly respond to them :)

Due respect to all

let us not spoil a well written, well intentioned, deeply rich in subject matter article like this get buried under word[policing] and  personal attacks disguised under so called [constructive  criticism] and all other childish and immature acts such as ganging up on one person or the other.

that goes for Mr.'s, Mrs.'s R2D2, Humility, masoud az amrika, passing through, and Jo as well.

Do you people just feel obligated and in  the need for  distraction  of this thread with uninvited  criticism of the writer in which you want her[the author] to respond to others in a manner that YOU would want her to do? And what is it with the so called supporters of the person who first initiated the attack and distraction on the author/thread which is  clearly on the records, being Mr. R2D2?

Why do you feel that you have to support such an uninvited criticism of owners reply method, comming from a  gentleman who comes out blazing and demanding HIS way of response?

The lady of the author was generous enough to ask for understanding, but seems to me that you the people named above are not capable of seeing her GENEROSITY and are hell bent on keeping your  distraction of  this beautiful thread.

sorry state of affairs indeed.

-YT 

Ironic is.......... I will teach you how to love while I hate you...... Hence is Mr. R2D2's message.

PP/S............ Gar to behtar mizani bestan bezan

Thank you

I'd like to thank all those who have enriched the content of this discussion by offering gnosis and insightful stories (Nur), poetry (Mehrdad, Yolanda, Theosopher and Captain Ahab).

As well, I like to thank anyone who has contributed their opinions, questions and thoughts about the content of this article.

I look forward to more discussion regarding the primary subject matter of Erfan-e Farsi and the Sufi path of Love.

And I'd prefer to keep it at that level rather than degrade this thread into personal affronts, haughty accusations or self-defense.

I invite R2-D2 to offer his "true understanding of  the total and complete meaning of the poem" appropriately posted by Mehrdad. I'd be happy to learn from his knowledge of Erfan, writing style and especially, the "Spirit of Humility."

Thank you for your cooperation,

Ramona

Personal affront wrapped in "politeness" and "concern"

R2-D2:

"My guess is that Ramona, the author of this blog, doesn't speak or understand Persian (Farsi), and consequently hasn't truly understood the total and complete meaning of the poem that you posted." (sic)

"Ramona …my reference regarding your lack of acknowledment [sic] was not with regard to Mowlana Rumi in general, but was with regard to the particular poem by Mowlana ….

I have one suggestion for you: When writing comments in response to other commentators, please take the time to be more organized, and concise! Brevity is an art form, and not necessarily long-windedness, especially if not properly structured and organized (ie. adequate paragraphs, etc.) …

P.S. Please take this suggestion as a constructive criticism - If you have been studying Mowlana's works and Sufism in earnest for the past ten (10) years, then one of the things that you should be fully aware of is the development of a Spirit Of Humility in oneself - I sincerely hope that you fully understand what I'm saying! "

_______ Translation: I know better than you, you need my guidance, my "constructive criticism" without which you’ll keep not understanding Rumi. And don’t you be arrogant, little you. Be humble like myself!!!

-

Humility:

" it's one thing to have head-knowledge about Mysticism in general, and Sufism in particular - However, it's something totally different to have a complete and total Spiritual transformation from them!

I have read some of your responses to R2-D2 and others below, and I believe that although you may have great intellectual knowledge of Mowlana and Sufism, nevertheless, in my opinion, the Spirit Of Humility that is referred to below is somewhat lacking!

If you truly are a student of Mowlana, you should demonstrate more humility - Your last response below to R2-D2, unfortunately, leaves much to be desired :) " [Note the smiley!!!]

P.S. …, his statements are not accusatory in nature … he simply is dispalying his displeasure at your lack of acknowledgment of the significant poem that was posted …

"My wishes for you are that as your intellectual head-knowledge increases, that the depths of your spirit develop with it also"

_______Translation: I feel uncomfortable to see that you know a lot more than my bro and me. You are too confident for our taste. I needed to come here and support my buddy. We cannot let you be in charge of your blog. You might have read books, but you have no depth of spirit. We are not going to change our minds on that, cuz how else could we control your blog and appear superior to you? BTW, you are not humble like us. Look at my name. Doesn’t it say "Humility?" I rest my case!!

Friends

Each blog has its own 'Village Idiot', and for this one, unfortunately, it's this fellow 'Jo'!

I am fairly familiar with who this person is - His original account was suspended by Jahanshah because of his personal attack of others - After the suspension, he created this other account under username 'Jo'! Recently, the suspension of his original account was removed!

He is writing comments under his original name for this article  also - However, in order not to mess up Ramona's article, I'm going to leave it at that :)

Please try and ignore him as much as possible, 

Respectfully,

H.

P.S. I hope that he is smart enough not to further continue this idiotic line of commenting - If not for Ramona's sake, then indeed for his own! - Period!

One of my many favorites

یار مرا غار مرا عشق جگرخوار مرا 

یار تویی غار تویی خواجه نگهدار مرا

نوح تویی روح تویی فاتح و مفتوح تویی

سینه مشروح تویی بر در اسرار مرا

نور تویی سور تویی دولت منصور تویی

مرغ که
طور تویی
خسته به منقار مرا

قطره تویی بحر تویی لطف تویی قهر تویی

قند تویی زهر تویی بیش میازار مرا

حجره خورشید تویی خانه ناهید تویی

روضه اومید تویی راه
ده‌ای یار مرا

روز تویی روزه تویی حاصل دریوزه تویی

آب تویی کوزه تویی آب ده این بار مرا

دانه تویی دام تویی باده تویی جام تویی 

پخته تویی خام تویی خام بمگذار مرا

این تن اگر کم تندی راه دلم کم زندی

راه شدی تا نبدی این همه گفتار مرا

-YT 

Jo

In Farsi there is a famous saying that: Khariat Faghat Alaf Khordan Nist

I don't know whether you understand Farsi or not, but if you don't, then have someone who does translate it for you - When I read your comment below, it dawned on me that this saying was especially made for people like you :)

Pure And Simple :) - Really!!

Mr. (or Miss?) Jo

I thought of leaving this comment in support of these two people, Mr.'s Humility and R2-D2,  that, to put it mildly, you have been less than kind towards ... !!! They both have participated in many of my blogs, and your conclusion about them is at best silly, and at worst voo-doo pop psychology... Let me quote you something from the Christian Bible: Before you take a spec out of someone else's eyes, take the log out of your own ... Hope you get it ... Massoud

Miss Ramona

I am glad that you found the poem helpful; I noticed that you had left a generous remark regarding that in your response to R2-D2 ... Massoud

...

Jo,

I have interacted with both of these people, R2-D2 and Humility, in my blogs, and I have to say that your evaluation of them is totally and completely off-base :)

I suggest that you visit my blogs, and judge for yourself their interactions with others - It's most unfortunate that you have to leave a comment like this here - It shows your total lack of understanding of others :) !

Passing Through

PS - My hopes are that you don't conclude (as a so-called Expert) that I am some type of a 'Control Freak', or some other 'Derogatory' personality, by leaving this comment :) - Nevertheless, by the behavior that you have exhibited below, I have to say that I wouldn't be surprised one bit if you did - Yes Mr. Expert :) ? !! 

R2-D2 and Humility

Dear Ramona,

Most of us have had to contend with control freaks on this site. These are those individuals who insist on having their way in all interactions with an author. They wish to set the agenda and decide what it is you will say and how you will say it. They have a driving need to run the show and call the shots. Bottom Line: in the process of being controlling, their comments say, "You’re incompetent." Remember, the control freak is usually fighting off a deep-seated sense of their own impotence. They need to assert themselves with you to not feel so incompetent. Being in control gives them the temporary illusion and sense of calmness and self-worth. They are too busy with their egos and inner conflicts to be able to have either enough knowledge or deep enough insight about the content of your article to have any genuine conversation with you.

My 2 cents.

Dear Ramona

Thank you for your response - The unfortunate thing with this means of communication, ie. writing comments, etc., is that Misunderstandings can very easily develop between people!

I would like to wish you good luck in your pursuit of Mysticism in general, and Sufism in particular - My wishes for you are that as your intellectual head-knowledge increases, that the depths of your spirit develop with it also,

Respectfully,

H.

P.S. One of the bloggers who has been very active in this area at this site is Passing Through - He has recently published a beautiful book :) I want you to know that I take great pleasure in reading his works, and engaging him in his commentary discussions - I hope you find his works enjoyable also :)

هرکسی از ظن خود شد یار من از درون من نجست اسرار من

Everybody became my friend according to their own consideration

None searched for my secrets from within me!

Ya NUR

عشق

!Cheers to all, the wine Mr. Nur proposed has already made me drunk

: Here is my share of tonight's joy

شاد باش ای عشق خوش سودای ما            ای طبیب جمله علت های ما

جسم خاک از عشق بر افلاک شد              کوه در رقص آمد و چالاک شد

.Good night ladies and gentlemen

Theosopher

Cheers Nur!

Beh Salamati! May we all increase in Love and find our way back to the reedbed whence we were separated.

To Humility

Your point is well taken. I apologize if I fell into a polemic with R2-D2 but I regarded his comments as personal affront, not just expressing displeasure with not acknowledging a poem posted to illustrate Rumi’s view of religion, which I really appreciate.R2-D2 made a couple of assumptions right off the bat, stating that I’m obviously not Iranian and don’t speak Farsi (ergo I don’t understand Mowlana); he questioned my being an earnest student of Rumi, and condemned my way of writing, long-windedness, lack of humility and brevity.

Besides, I don't see any reason why I should acknowledge any particular poem when I'm discussing whether or not Rumi and Shams had any particular religious affiliations, warning against sectarianism, and explaining the nature of the relationship between the two! That's what’s baffling!

I acknowledge the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. I don't think anyone I know has reached a complete and total spiritual transformation by studying Mowlana, though many have been touched by it. For me, a complete spiritual transformation is a life-long struggle and obviously I have a long way to go because I am quite aware of my own weaknesses and shadow aspects!

At this point, I completely agree with Theosopher and would like to get back to the main subject which is Rumi:

One of my favorite poems (I have many favorites!) is the following:

"Through love all that is bitter will be sweet.

Through Love all that is copper will be gold.

Through Love all dregs will turn to purest wine.

Through Love all pain will turn to medicine.

Through Love the dead will all become alive.

Through Love the king will turn into a slave! "

-- Translation by Annemarie Schimmel

Look! This is Love - Poems of Rumi"

Shambhala, 1991

Is there a particular poem, Theosopher, that you would like to share and discuss?

Ramona

ganjoorهر کسی کو دور ماند از اصل خویش باز جوید روزگار وصل خویش

اصل خویش یعنی یگانگی خویش وتمامیت خویش وارزش والای خویش وخلاصه فطرت
الهی خویش که در ااتصال به مبدا است
آیا چه چیز هائی ماراازاین اصل دور کرده است اگر بدانیم امیدی به سعادت
ورستگاری وجود دارد
اگر قدری توجه کنیم شاید دریابیم که یگانگی ما در پای شریکان افتاده وبجای
اینکه خودمان باشیم یکی از دیگران شده ایم یکی از دیگران بودن یعنی درمیان
نبودن اصل خویش وتمامیت وجود مادر پای نیاز روانی به دیگران محو گردیده
وفطرت الهی ما درپای طبیعت ما ومکتسبات دیرینه ما از تجلی باز ایستاده
ورشته ارتباط وعشق ما به مبدا هستی زنگ زده وعایق گشته است
برای رسیدن به حقیقت ناچاریم تامل کنیم وبا صبر وحوصله موانع ومشکلات را
ببینیم آنچه انسان را از اسارت میرهاند مشاهده احوال خویش با بی طرفی است
که اصطلاحا خود شنا سی گفته میشود وگرنه خواندن مثنوی مولوی وآثار دیگربرای
ما چندان سودمند نخواهد بود

Dear Ramona

I have read your article, and all the comments associated with it - I would like to first thank you for your efforts in writing the article, and also for responding to the various commentators :)

With your permission, I would like to share a though or two here:

First, it's one thing to have head-knowledge about Mysticism in general, and Sufism in in particular - However, it's something totally different to have a complete and total Spiritual transformation from them!

I have read some of your responses to R2-D2 and others below, and I believe that although you may have great intellectual knowledge of Mowlana and Sufism, nevertheless, in my opinion, the Spirit Of Humility that is referred to below is somewhat lacking!

If you truly are a student of Mowlana, you should demonstrate more humility - Your last response below to R2-D2, unfortunately, leaves much to be desired :)

Respectfully,

H.

P.S. As I read his comments, his statements are not accusatory in nature - From what I understand, he simply is dispalying his displeasure at your lack of acknowledgment of the significant poem that was posted by Massoud - Period!

گر به خود آیی، به خدایی رسی‌، به خود آاا

Thank you for your response. I understand and agree with your assertions. There was a time when I quoted Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the masses" which I still believe in, but only in the common understanding of the word religion. However now that I understand "re-ligion" to mean linking back to or reconnection with your Source, then it's not such a dirty word!:-) I hope you understand my meaning.

I also agree that nothing should come between you and your God. True Spirituality and Presence of Heart is a direct experience of the Divine. Anything beyond that is mere posturing.

And God should not be taken as an excuse to make war based on ignorance. I didn't mean to misread your comment to say that you are blaming God for man's crimes. But many Iranians do and thus turn their backs on God and spirituality.

I also resonate with what you Kung-Fu master taught you so many years ago. That is precisely what I meant when I repeated: "know thyself and you shall know God."

Sincerely,

Ramona

P.S. I also think that all of the universe is a reflection of God, including the many qualities and characteristics that we humans bear, both positive and negative.

Rumi's beauty

Dear Gentle women and men,

We have had a good discussion so far, so please do not  ruin it by running into personal responses.

 I humbly ask both sides to go back to the beauty of Rumi's poetry and ideas and I ask Mr. Nur to give us some more enlightenments about one of Rumi's poems (whichever he chooses) if his excellency desires so.

Theosopher

Brevity and Humility

R2-D2,

The reason I didn't acknowledge the poem posted by Massoud was because I was expressing my understanding of Mowlana's poetry in general. I was not interpreting a particular poem. Pure and simple.

As for humility, I hear you loud and clear. I'd also like to add: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

You made no mention in your latest comment regarding your previous wrong assumptions and erroneous judgments. Yet you give yourself permission to question whether I've been a student of Mowlana in earnest and take the liberty of teaching me how to write.

I do agree that less is more and I'm sorry if my "long windedness" offends your sensibilities. But I see no relation between lack of brevity and lack of humility.

Here's where I resonate with the Theosopher's previous comment when he uttered a common Persian expression: "kafar hameh ra be kishe' khod pendarad." [The unbeliever (or guilty one) believes everybody else is like himself]