Anonymouse

A Short History of "Feminist" Anti-Feminists

Sarah Palin defining feminists  She is a feminist anti-feminist or perhaps a "so-called feminist"!

Since Obama took office conservative nut jobs have become activists! 

Everything is sacred.

Souri jaan interesting.

Shadi Sadr said in her article that; "you" tell "us" to wear hijab and "we" wear it.  Men don't wear hijab and don't really want to know or feel how it'd feel.  Given all of it, it doesn't stop at wearing hijab because had it been just that, it'd have been more tolerable.

Another problem is that if a man tries to shed his chavinism he'll be ridiculed and his "morality" or "widsom" questioned!  That's how deep the problem is!  Like a cycle. 

Everything is sacred.

Just got this in an email

مستراحي به وسعت يک سرزمين

 بسيار دور از
هم قد کشيده ايم . هر يک بر فراز صخره اي بلند و دره اي عميق ميان مان که
با هيچ خاکستري پر نخواهد شد . جدايمان کردند . از روز اول مهر . با پوشش
هاي متفاوت . مانتو و مقنعه و چادر تيره بر من پوشاندند و تو را با لباس
فرم و کله اي تراشيده به ساختماني ديگر فرستادند . من رابه مدرسه ي
دخترانه و تو را پسرانه .

دانشگاه هم که
رفتيم جدايمان کردند . با رديف هاي دور از هم . نيمکت هاي خانم ها و
آقايان . با درها و راهرو ها و ورودي ها و خروجي هاي خواهران و برادران .

جدايمان کردند و
ما بسيار دور از هم قد کشيديم . در اتوبوس با ميله ها و در حرم و امامزاده
با نرده ها و در دريا و ساحل با پارچه هاي برزنتي.

آنقدر دور و
غريب از هم بزرگ شديم تا تو شدي راز درک ناشدني اي براي من و من شدم عقده ي جنسي سرکوب شده اي براي تو .تا هر جا که ديگر نتوانستند جدايمان کنند،
در تاکسي و خيابان ، از زور بيماري و عقده هاي جنسي خود را به من بمالي و
برهنگي ساق پايم حالي به حالي ات کند و نگاه حريص ات مانتو ام را بدرد .

جدا و بسيار دوراز هم قد کشيديم انقدر که تا پايين تنه هايمان معذب مان کرد خيال کرديم
عاشق شده ايم و چون عاشق هستيم بايد ازدواج کنيم و بعد هم با هزاران عقده
ي بيدار و خفته به زير يک سقف رفتيم .

بسيار دور از هم قد کشيديم . انقدر که ديگرنگاهمان نيز يکديگر را خوب و درست نديد و نگاه هاي انساني جاي خود را به نگاه جنسيتي دادند درهمه جا . در محل کار ، در
محافل فرهنگي و علمي و حتي جلسات سياسي .

و من بايد تقاص همه ي اين فاصله ها را بپردازم . تقاص دوري از تو و بر صخره اي ديگرقدکشيدن را . تقاص تو را نديدن و نشناختن را . بايد که تنم بلرزد وقتي هوا
تاريک مي شود و من تنها در خيابانم . وقتي دنبال کار مي گردم . وقتي تاکسي
سوار مي شوم .

اينجا يک مستراح عمومي است به وسعت يک کشور .

وطن پرستان عزيز
. بهتان بر نخورد . آخر سالياني است که در همه جاي دنيا فقط مستراح ها را
زنانه و مردانه کرده اند.

Thanks Yolanda - right back at you.

.

......

Hi! MM,

    I always enjoy reading your posts and blogs.....You have done a lot for your motherland. You are compassionate, patriotic & courteous, and you are great!

Please take care! 

Well, Azadeh, Anonymouse, Ari... r right - d book is wrong

The point of the article was that comparative to the rest of the world, women in ancient Persia stood in higher ground and they were even given warrior status and Kings listened to them.  But you all had put on your microscopes and pull hair off a flea's back with a pair tweezers (as my old boss used to say).  Have we made progress (?), NOT with IRI around, but, please come on out and meet some good people.

But, you all have made up your minds and congradulations, we are ALL chauvinists and probably from Mars.  That is all for now and I will go a put some mercurchrome and bandages on my shot foot.  Good catch Azadeh, and my advice to you is: get the heck out of where you are.  It is killing you faster than us male chauvinistic pigs.

Azadeh & Anonymouse

Azadeh, yes, apparently "calling the shots" is an idiom taken from target practice!

Anonymouse, I am sorry to confuse you about the Canadian situation.  It is true, "formal" equality (never mind affirmative action) for Iranian women would be much better than the current "formal" inequality!

I will give you an example of the Canadian problem - it is a 1999 Supreme Court of Canada case.  There was a woman who was a firefighter.  The government established new physical fitness standards for firefighters.  The woman couldn't meet the standard and was dismissed.

The government argued that they weren't discriminating against women, they were setting standards for firefighters.  But the court found that although the standards had something to do with the ability to do the job, and although the government believed that the standard was necessary for safety, the standard wasn't actually necessary for safety, and it was also more difficult for women to meet than for men.

This is just an example of how, even if Canada never had "Whites only" or "Bad hijab" signs (although we may soon have the equivalent of "Bad niqab" signs :P), we still have to fight against discriminatory laws.

More from women in ancient Iran article

New mothers and pregnant women received higher rations and sons were clearly preferred over daughters. If they delivered boys both the mother and the nurse or the physician received higher rations. The extra payments were given out for one month only. Consistently mothers of boys received twice the amount compared to mothers of baby girls. 

Bah! Bah!  We need to go back to that era so we can pay twice as much rations to mothers of boys! 

Everything is sacred.

Esther & MM

 Esther:

The idiom, "Calling the shots" means making the decisions that affect everyone. I don't know its etymology, but is it phallocratic because of the use of the word "gun?" It's possible.　

MM:

You've succeeded in shooting yourself in the foot by your links!　

WOMEN IN ANCIENT IRAN

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Women/women_ancient_iran.htm

Two quotes from this link:

“Families were patriarchal, polygamy and concubines existed;”

“sons were clearly preferred over daughters”

Did you even bother reading this article?

The second link was a publicity video about Queens and Princesses and a female navy high officer. It is unworthy of any discussion about the position of the majority of women in ancient Iran.

Patriarchy is 3000 years old! Time for change!

Azadeh

More articles in favor and against Shadi Sadr's view in Persian

//www.mardomak.org/special/shadisadr/ 

Everything is sacred.

.....

If they make "Princess of Persia", I hope they cast Persian actress(es)! There are no Persian actors and actresses in "Prince of Persia"! Maybe some extras?

Esther given d circumstances an affirmative action sounds good!

An affirmative action for Iranian women!  Imagine when the bad hijab signs are removed women will be given the opportunities to participate in some lofty ideas or jobs! I think they deserve it after decades of having 1/2 the rights, sometimes 1/8 the rights of men. 

The day the discriminatory laws are taken off the books I'll be a happy man.  I won't really care anymore if ALL Iranian men are chauvinists or not because I know that once they do something stupid they'll have to pay for it and the laws will no longer hide them or worse encourage them further.

I can never understand this Canada situation!  On one hand they say Canada and America are the same and on the other hand we read these other differences!  When Hajiagha says it it's one thing and when you say it it's another!  No wonder Hajiagha is so stressed out, he can never eloquently explain Canada!

Everything is sacred.

MM make up ur mind. You started this brush comparison

You said Shadi Sadr's statement is somehow related to her experience with Islamic Republic men who were her jailer and not enough interaction with UN-chauvinistic men.  Then you said she and "educated" are painting all men with the "same" brush.

So are you now saying Islamic Republic paints feminists with mop strokes and in return feminists are painting men with mop strokes as well?

If I say you're digging a bigger hole with your comments I'm sure you'll take offense, so I won't say it!

I'll just say and leave it at this that what Shadi Sadr said about ALL Iranian men being chauvinist a little or more is not a fight against men it is a challenge to rise up and speak up.  As Dr. King said a dream to rise up .... now you seem to want to sit down and ignore this challenge.  That's fine.

Everything is sacred.

mop strokes from IRI mentality, but from educated folks - NO

.

Not the "same" brush stroke Islamic Republic gets "mop" strokes!

Everything is sacred.

a 3000 year old problem?

Please take a look at these sites before making up your mind.  Thanks.

WOMEN IN ANCIENT IRAN

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Women/women_ancient_iran.htm

Persian Women in Power

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5umNyfYgCs&feature=player_embedded

Thank u Souri Perhaps we can have The Princess of Persia movie!

Imagine Hollywood making a movie The Princess of Persia and Islamic Republic and Ahmadi's reaction!

I think chauvinism may be inherit in men and went as far back as cavemen and cavewomen.  Here's one scenario:

Caveman: Here cook this leg of giraffe which is our share of the hunt today

Cavewoman: Yesterday rat meat, today giraffe meat.  When are you going to bring good meat?

Caveman: Can you shut this baby up?  His crying is giving me a headace

Cavewoman: I think his teeth are coming out and he is crying

Caveman: Do you want me to pull his teeth?

Cavewoman: No! Tomorrow you stay in cave, take care of the baby and I'll go fishing for Salmon

Caveman: No way no how!  The baby came out of you.  When a baby comes out of me you'll see that no peep will come out of him!

Everything is sacred.

Anonymouse - Please read carefully

"Nonetheless, all that time in IRI's systems earned Shadi her two prestigious awards in the past year."

Shadi's awards were not given to her because she is a thief or.... While your mind focused on one passage only, I did follow up by acknowledging that Shadi's time in IRI's systems earned her two prestigious awards.  And, it goes without saying that her awards were  earned because she is a lawyer, a human rights activist, a freedom lover and her time in IRI courts was to save the oppressed.

Please read carefully.  Thank you.

However, her sterotyping (as well as you and Azadeh) of ALL Iranian men is not giving me a good impression of her.  While everybody agrees that there is a lot of gender prejudices in Iran, maily due to IRI's laws and what ever, I refuse to let her paint all Iranian men with the same brush stroke.

that is all.

Anonymouse

Thank you for your, as always, interesting comments!  In fact, I am almost as fond of Iranian cuisine as Persian poetry. :)

I am somewhat familiar with Shadi Sadr and her work, and of course I oppose oppression of women in Iran (or elsewhere) just as I do oppression of non-whites in America (or elsewhere).  So I am happy to acknowledge the problem and express my views, but I prefer to leave the solution to those who are more familiar with the details.

As for the situation in Canada, it is true that neither racism nor sexism are dead. On a lighter note, there are or have been among us cartoonists, both male and female, more qualified to comment than I.  On a more serious note, I think our problems have been less visible than segregation, and our leaders less visible than Dr. King.

Back to the situation in Iran, of course the first step in solving the problem is admitting there is one.  And of course an important step in improving equality is getting rid of obvious legally entrenched inequality.  But just changing the laws is not enough.  You also have to change the culture.

And, when you analyze the laws, and I think this is a difference between US and Canadian equality jurisprudence, you also have to think about how you define equality.  US courts tend to adopt a "formal equality" approach (as long as the law treats everyone the same, it's fine - of course, there is still the whole "affirmative action" debate).  Canadian courts adopt a more "substantive equality" approach (if the law treats everyone the same, but it works out worse for one group than another, there's a problem - of course, we haven't figured out how to solve it yet).

It may be true that there are no more racist or sexist laws in the US.  However, we are still fighting that battle in Canada.  I think it is important to remember that just because you get rid of the "Whites only" (or "Bad hijab") signs doesn't mean that you have gotten rid of inequality, or even legally entrenched inequality.

But it is also true that if you don't at least see those signs as a bad thing, and if you don't at least get rid of them, the more insidious forms of inequality may be the least of your worries!

Great article, dear Anonymouse

I was delighted by reading this article. Thanks for having taken your time to write this great insightful text. It describes in detail, the aspects of "male chauvinism" in our culture, both the hidden and the transparent ones!

Although, I am not sure about the veracity of what Azadeh jon calls "a 3000 year old problem"

I think I have read somewhere that the Persian women during the Maads & even Sassanian were mostly the warriors and there was some kind of "madar salari" reigning in that era.

I think this is mostly an Islamic phenomena which has been spread in Iran since only 1400 years ago and of course got multiplied in aspect and dimension.

Very great and valuable article. Many thanks.

Esther chauvinism is an Iranian "soup"!

Have you had Iranian dishes with rice and "soup"? It's not soup, we call it khoresht and if you've been to Indian restaurants and had curry dishes with rice, it's like that.  If you have dated an Iranian man or date one you can get a taste of what we're talking about! 

You don't need to know exactly what Shadi Sadr said.  ALL you need to know is that she is a feminist and has been in jail twice and currently sentenced to 6 years and 74 lashes all for fighting for equal rights for Iranian women. Her imfamous ALL statement is the subject of this and other blogs.

So in this context she is no different than Dr. King or Malcom X or others who went to jail for being an activist.  It is similar to the racism or sexism in North America.

Although someone told me that racism runs deep in Canada! For example if you're non-white and want to open an art gallery no one will give you a loan or you need a 12 great education!  Perhaps you can introduce us to Canada's Dr. King?!

Well back to your comments, many Iranian men label themselves chauvinists.  Many don't label themselves as such but when you tell them this behavior is chauvinism they say so be it.  The more this goes on and the more women are left with inequality the harder it'll become to change these laws.

The half bearded TV analysts that I talked about sometimes admit the inequality and his interviewer will say no there is equality in Iran and the nonesense goes on.

In one way we can't compare sexism in Iran to America's sexism or racism (don't know about Canada :-) because there are no sexist or racist laws in America, not anymore.  There used to be but not anymore.

Everything is sacred.

.......

Hi! Mouse,

   This part really cracked me up:

wearing long sleeves shirts is considered not manly enough.

I checked the picture link......apparently they give tourists hard time also and crack down on bad hejab! .......I heard in Kish Island, the authority is not very strict with hejab enforcement!

I have to say that Rafsanjani (75 years old) looks younger than Khamenei (70 years old) 'cause he does not have a beard! When you have a beard, you put a lot of mileage on your face!

A few more comments

First, I take the point that when you are talking about things like racism or sexism, it depends who is talking.  That is why, as a white woman, I am more comfortable talking about race in North America or sexism generally (and letting Iranian men and women talk about sexism in Iran).

Second, I wonder whether the problem is with the word ALL, or with the word CHAUVINIST.  As Anonymouse said, "No Iranian man in Iran can say that in their lifetime they have not done something chauvinistic."  Leaving aside limiting the issue to "Iranian men in Iran," I thought it was helpful to talk about "doing something chauvinistic" rather than "being chauvinist".

Talking about "doing" focuses on behavior, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad, and can always be changed.  Talking about "being" focuses on identity, which raises more defences.  I don't think anyone wants to be labelled a "chauvinist".  But, if we talk about "chauvinistic behavior", and if we are honest with ourselves, I think we can all (yes, ALL) think of examples where we have, if not directly oppressed, at least promoted negative stereotypes.

You can see an example in Yolanda and Azadeh's discussion about "calling the shots".   Azadeh says, both sides should call the shots.  But actually, I think neither side should call the shots, because there shouldn't be any shots in a relationship.  And I suspect that "calling the shots" is a phallocentric metaphor anyway.  You can also see some of my examples in R2-D2's blog.

The point is, racism, sexism, and other ugly "isms" are everywhere, and we should ALL be aware of them and watch out for them.  If the struggle for gender equality in Iran has anything to learn from the struggle for racial equality in America, perhaps it may be that once you have gotten rid of the more blatant forms, it will still be an ongoing struggle against the more insidious forms.

MM seems you are "telling fortune with eyes closed"!

 Shadi Sadr has spent way too much time either in IRI jails or in IRI courts

Well of course this is what it is all about!  Why did she spend time in jail?  For breaking the law.  What law?  The law of asking for equal justice. 

Did she not know any man before and only met the ones in Jail?  I tried to explain that the Iranian boy is taught to look at women with different rights.  So until and IF that boy grows up to shed this mentality and the right that has been given to him he has been a chauvinist by definition!

So this is why the word ALL applies.  If I say ALL Iranian men breath, is that using the wrong definition?  How about ALL Iranian men eat? or ALL Iranian men drink?

ALL means that at one point or another they have been or ARE chauvinist.  Shadi Sadr is asking those of us who have shed our chauvinism to look inside and find out when and how we shed our chauvinism and teach it to others so they can too. 

If vast majority of Iranian men shed this trait it will have a big impact and will cause change.  Just like when vast majority of Iranian women resisted too much chauvinisim and too much coverup and they mamaged to gain whatever liberties they have now, such being able to wear mantoo or just scarves or sandals.

Don't resist, resistance is futile!  ALL men are created equal! 

Everything is sacred.

why not both :-)

.

MM

no books, but I will ask Soosan to give you hope

 که یارم از سفر اومد

Azadeh jan,I believe# of non male chauvinist Iranian men is >>10

Dear Azadeh, I believe number of Iranian men who are not male chauvinist, is higher by few orders of magnitude than 10.  I am not a sociologist but as they say:" I was not born yesrerday" either.

So, MM

Do you think I can write a best-selling book about you :-)).

I think the whole misunderstanding comes from the fact that the concepts of male chauvinism and sexism are not deeply understood by many Iranians. They equate male chauvinism with wife-beating and other kinds of crimes.

I sometimes ask myself why, although there were quite a few African students at my university, I never had a black boyfriend. I attribute it to my hidden racism. I know that I am not consciously racist, but I have the courage to admit to myself that probably somewhere deep within my unconscious self, there has always been enough racism (towards the Blacks) to prevent me from dating a black guy. The same applies to sexism in men and in many women.

I don't understand why you are disappointed in me.  Maybe you need to read Anonymouse's blog again and again. He is very clear.

Azadeh

:-( to hear that Azadeh

I do not know about your case, but Shadi Sadr has spent way too much time either in IRI jails or in IRI courts, none of which reflect any shades of respect towards women.  Nonetheless, all that time in IRI's systems earned Shadi her two prestigious awards in the past year.  So, I think it is time for her to get out and meet some good folks to restore her faith in Iranian men.