www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Ben

Your ideas or any ideas , referendums, votes etc can not be done:

1- In a vacuum of government or power

2- Under the current regime

THEREFORE a democratic system need to be in place to assure open and free exchange of ideas and THEN any referendums , elections, LOCAL OR NATIONAL can be done.

What you propose is something that can not be achieved in real world.

We first need some set of free and secular standards before we can even have a place and means to express our positions and votes.

With all due respect, you sound like a child that cries he wants icecream no matter what at 2 O'clock in the morning when all the shops are closed in the city that is beng raided thugs. 

You need to wait till daylight comes, have peace in the streets, open markets , they should have icecream to sell, you should have money to buy and then you can chose your favorite icecream and then enjoy it.

Without money, an open market and icecream no matter how much you cry, your wish will not come true!

What we have proposed is a TEMPORARY government and constitution that assures all that ....

visit: www.iransecular.com

Sorry

I was directly addressed here so I had to come back in this blog.

Your question reveals the bulk of my criticism toward your approach.

First of all, strong central government or less central government preference is for people to decide, through a democratic process, in total freedom of exchange of ideas. Thus, the referendum and its follow-up that I am talking about. Again here, you are turning YOUR position to an imposition.

It's not for me or you to decide the form of government. It's for people to decide in a proper process. But since you asked, I favour a structure that doesn't have any parallel -that I know of- just yet. It is a democratic process that starts from electing local governance, which in turn elects regional governance, which in turn elects national governance. Each level of governance is subject to approval by a referendum. But direct electing of 'candidates' by people only occurs at local level.

Now coming back to your 'suspicion' about my stance on Baluchestan issue, this is what is wrong with you people. Did it ever occur to you that people of Baluchestan -or anywhere else for that matter- would not have chosen desperate tactics and wrong ideas if their voice could be heard in freedom? You are siding with IRI on this issue in the name of central government and you are accusing ME of hurting IRI opposition! I'm siding with people who were forced to choose the wrong vehicle to express their dissidence. I talk to them and I listen to them.

Incidentally, guess which approach would have more attraction to those people? An approach that alienates them right off the bat, on both counts that you are preaching, one for gathering around a Sunni political religion idea, two for using terrorism and violence.

Or the approach that says we will have a referendum based on our historic memory, ... let's talk. Let's all talk.

VPK

You summed it well:

The funny thing is that most you people are living in secular west yet still don't get it.

 The is they get it but claim that average Iranian does not get it and in a way they decide to talk for others instead of just for themselves.

Our history and the people that I met from villages to cities of Iran noth and south get it... I hardly met those who dont get it when it comes to a affairs of government vs religion.

Yes US and West or Latin American also has its zealous religious people but they still maintain their secularity. This concept of we Iranians don't get at this time, especially when told by religious reformits  is in fact a disrespect to Muslims and Iranians!

They might as well say that Muslims and Iranians ar idiots and don't get it while the most of the world does:

//iransecular.blog.com/2010/02/18/secular-green-nations/

Benross

I really am wondering about you. On one hand you are dissing the sanest and most reasonable people like MM and DavidET. On other blogs you openly support separatist violent groups. Is it because you have an agenda of a failed central government? That way the separatists could say "Ha I told you! It does not work". Then go off and try to divide Iran.

I am asking you a point blank question: What is your agenda? Do you support a united Iran iwth a strong government or do you want a divided failed Iran?

VPK

VPK

It is amazing that we are trying to get solidarity from people who have not grasped the concepts of the separation of church and state NOR have they appreciated the freedoms that we enjoy here in the west.

heavens help us. 

What is so hard

to understand about Separation of Religion and state? Why are some people confusing this with banning religion. Are you people deliberately trying to act ignorant. Or are you really unable to grasp such a simple concept.

I am getting really sick of this. There are many examples of such separation yet some still come out and act like it has never been done before. The funny thing is that most you people are living in secular west yet still don't get it.

Thank god for sane people like David and MM.  I am with you David and I am with you MM. The naysayers remind me of the US congress. No matter what there are those with an agenda. Their job is to say no to progress. 

VPK

I do not have any guilt nor prejudices

Who are you kidding, my friend.  I have a very good life here and my concern is for millions of Iranians who are being experimented on by folks like you who say "referendum, trust me, I will do right".  No mo bro.

1. Separation of religion/state means that Iran cannot have religious committees or a VF who can veto the executive, the legislators or the judiciary branches of the government, cf., equality of genders.

2. Human rights: After 2500 years, even you have to agree that we can improve on what King Cyrus gave to the world.

benross and all the nay sayers of pro/anti IR

 ما قبل از پیدایش ویژه سکولاریسم، جدا دین بوده ایم

فرمان دادم كه همه مردم در پرستش خدای خود آزاد باشند و آنان را نیازارند- کورش کبیر

and still today Iranians in the street are not saying anything different than what they practiced 2549 solar years ago which is

شعار ملت ما، دین از سیاست جدا 

Yes, Iranian people understand what it means not to foce their religion on others. In Iran except for government interventions at different times of history people in general lived peacefully Shia, Sunni, Christians, Jews , Zorosterians or Bahai's .  The rest is nonesense that is being sold to by Islamic Republic or extemist oponents of it or some reformers or some foreign interests who do not want a free and secular Iran

We have large sunni, jewish, Armenian, asyrian  and Bahai population in Iran, some 1st or 2nd in the world. We have churches from Isfahan to Azerbajan....

ben: I do not have slightest idea what you keep mumbling about guilt etc etc!!!!!!!!!!!!...stay with the subject

All I'm saying is deal with

All I'm saying is deal with your guilt first. Blank check is there.

Referendum will be followed by a very clear and limited agenda, including preparation of constituent assembly. There, people will decide. The way you are putting forward your separation of church and state, and the charter, it is not a 'position'. It's an 'imposition'. It won't fly. You may have people who agree with you, including myself, but you may not have the alternative because you have not respected the proper process for the society.

Stick with history and don't try to re-write it. Deal with your guilt first. And don't try to blame others. That's my last comment here.

where have you been benross?

Referendum?  We will not give another blank check to be filled by a bunch of men with hidden agendas later.  Let's agree on the framework, then referendum.  No more free rides.

Separation of religion and state: No one is advocating getting rid of religion.  By separation of religion and government, we do not mean to get rid of religion, but to make a private matter instead of state policy.

Human rights: Again, here you go doing what everyone else from right to left is doing; comparing Iran to the pot-pol regime and saying we have a good government, or just because no one has fully implemented the charter of human rights, you say it is impossible?

Take a look at Cyrus's cylinder, which is now at the UN and see what your forefathers did more than 2500 years ago towards human rights / rights of nations.

Referendum

This is the Achilles' heel of your concept: 

1. Separation of religion and politics

There is no country in the world that fully implements such idea. It's all relative. And an agenda focused on separation of religion and politics, specially for Iran and in this circumstances, no matter how hard you try to avoid it, would mean challenging Islamic beliefs in political domain. Not religion beliefs, Islamic beliefs. In that perspective, monarchists got it right from the beginning, challenging Akhoonds, not Muslims... and leave it at that. All Muslims will go along with it... except of-course Akhoonds and tooleh communists.

Which brings forward another flaw in this approach. Separation of church and state is perceived and understood within overall culture of a society. To me, it is not only about religion. It is about any kind of ideology which first and foremost, for what particularly concerns us and we see its devastating impact in our daily experience, includes also communism in its different flavours, as a religion to be separated from the state and politics.

As Václav Havel once said, democracy is and ideal to strive on, not a goal to reach and sit on it. (paraphrasing)

2. Full implementation of the charter of human rights

Again, there is no country in the world that fully implemented this charter. Canada has it included in its constitution, but look what it does with aboriginals when it comes to the oil sands, meaning when big interests are at play... among others.

In this world of relativism in which nothing is absolute, we can only rely on what our own history draws for us. We had a historic path of modernism, encapsulated in a constitution (which reflects all its shortcomings) and an anti-modernism traditional path that interrupted the previous path, encapsulated in IRI constitution. (which also reflects its shortcomings facing the reality, in implementing total reactionary path as intended)

Regardless our values, beliefs and political tendencies, this historic reality is for all of us. Including IRI supporters. So it is important to establish, before asking separation of church and state, before implementation of the charter, whether we choose the historic path of modernism or what stopped it over 30 years ago. A referendum. This is our agenda, nationwide. 

Now before you start again telling me that this agenda is not clear (which is crystal clear, and has our history behind it) let me tell you that the only thing that is not clear in this project is YOU.

It is *you* who don't want to come clean with our collective guilt, trying to portrait an agenda that seemingly is more progressist than what our collective memory remembers from past regime, and by doing so, to hide your sense of guilt and somehow justify it. It doesn't matter that it can't fool me. What matters is that it can't fool yourself... therefore it won't work. 

حداقل - جدائی دین از سیاست و منشور اعلاميه جهانی حقوق بشر

The five points plan suggested by Mousavi as well as plans by folks like Kadivars and Sorouches are there to save face by proposing yet another untested form of government.  They still believe that Khomeini was a great leader, and they still believe in an Islamic Republic.  These folks are experimenting with Iranian people’s lives in order to save their 7th century way of life. 

As long as there are religious committees and VF that can veto legislators and judiciary processes that have any hint of being against Shari'a, we cannot get away from this 7th century mentality.  The way to go forward is via systems that believe in:

1. Separation of religion and politics

2. Full implementation of the charter of human rights

Please let us know how your new improved Islamic Republic will deal with laws that conflict with Shari'a (as simple as full equality of genders), and whether you believe in implementation of the full 30 points of the charter of human rights in Iran.  Anything short of this, we are back in experimentation mode with Iranian lives.

Iran, the birthplace of the first charter of human rights / rights of nations deserves better than the current barbaric system.

Mr Saadat

 My reference to 101 etc in the beginning was to mammad's comments about shah's army heads etc... and in response to his language..

as for you, yes I had not addressed all your points as after that long post, had to take a break!

I respond to your comments below them:

. فرق گروه جنابعالی با رفرمیست های آزادیخواه ایرانی این است که شما میخواهید رژیم جمهوری اسلامی را سرنگون کنید و آنها میخواهند دمکراسی را بسازند.

democracy within Islamic Republic regime and within its non-democratic constitution is impossible. I have a scientific proof for my claim: 31 years of attempting to build democracy within IR has failed. Any scientist after 31 years in the laboratory of Iran would have given up and called that a wrong presumption.  

. . رفرمیست های ایرانی برنامه هایی ارائه میدهند  که به جنگ داخلی نینجامد و موجب کشتار نشود

So all the Nedas and Sohrabs and so many others were not killed? The only ones who are creating the fear of civil war are the extremists of the regime and some extremists in opposition who promoted taking arms since day 1.  

و اسباب یک کشور آزاد و قانون پرور فراهم شود و آزادی بیان و بردباری سیاسی و مذهبی مورد احترام قرار گیرد و نهاد های مدنی شکل بگیرند و احزاب سیاسی تشکیل شوند و تفکیک قوای حکومتی میان مقننه و قضاییه و مجریه پذیرفته شود و طبقات مختلف اجتماعی وظائف و حقوق اجتماعی خود را بشناسند و به اجرا بگذارند.

That is what I stand for which is not possible with current constitution, supreme leader, etc etc.

There are no free political parties and as they have not allowed in the past , they will not still. The three branches of government have been the agents of the vali faghih in action and words and will continue to be that. 

 دلمشغولی سیاستی که شما و همفکرانتان ارائه میدهید فروپاشی حکومت اسلامی به هر قیمت است. به همین خاطر تمام روشهای ممکن برای این کار- یعنی فروپاشی حکومت - را مطرح میکنید. برخی از آقایان محترمی که در این ستون مطلب نوشته اند و رابطه آنها با شما برای من مشخص نیست – به غیر از اینکه خود را طرفدار شما معرفی کردند و شما هم به آنها ایرادی نگرفته اید – تزهایی مطرح میکنند که در کشورهای متمدن به عنوان روش آدمکشی شناخته میشود.

I have not promoted  به هر قیمت and in fact have even opposed the current leaders adventurism and show of power using the people shortly after election. Here is from my blog on June 24, 2009 which proved to be accurate:

 "As for Iranian people there still seem to be a lack of leadership and if the efforts of Mousavi, Rafsanjani and alike do not reach any results , with the lack of true leadership that exists any more encouragement of unarmed Iranians to face the armed forces of Islamic regime will only result in unnecessary bloodshed without any specific gains. At this stage anymore such calls without strategic planning are nothing but adventurism that result in unnecessary crackdown, arrests, injuries and death. Continuance of the status quo and adventurism also play in to the traps of the same old usual opportunists of different camps from ultra right to the left who have again come out of the woodwork trying to take advantage of the situation for their self-serving gains."

روش بحث شما و دوستانتان این است که بدبختی های ملت ایران را میشمارید و انگاه روش مسلحانه و فروپاشی نهادهای دولتی را پیشنهاد میکند. دردی ندارید که سرانجام این کار چه خواهد شد.

You are making false and baseless accusations. I oppose armed struggle. 

دردی و پیشنهادی برای ایجاد دمکراسی و قانونمداری در گفتارهای شما دیده نمیشود. اینکه بدی های این حکومت را ردیف کنید هنری نیست. هنر این است که راه حلی برای برقراری نهادهای دمکراتیک ارائه کنید. مثلا اینکه چگونه نهادهایی که برای دمکراسی ضروری هستند بسازیم.

In fact if you read my blogs I do not act as a news agency of what this regime has done and is doing (although networking the news is extremely important) but I focus on tactical and strategical and long term solutions and analysis. I have had series of articles titled: Solutions for Iran, promoted participating in election and drafted a secular constitution. So please instead of making accusation about someone at least click on their name and see what they have been promoting. 

اشتباه دوم شما این است که میگوید این حکومت بر پایه زور حکومت میکند و نه با تکیه بر مردم. این حکومت - چه ما بخواهیم و چه نخواهیم - پایگاه اجتماعی دارد و ندیدن این واقعیت نه تنها گرهی از کار ما بازنخواهد کرد که آن را سخت تر هم خواهد کرد. فرض کنیم که در انتخابات ریاست جمهوری اخیر جای رای آقای موسوی و احمدی نژاد را عوض کردند. در این صورت احمدی نژاد 14 میلیون رای آورده است. شما با این جماعت میخواهید چکار کنید. آنها را بکشید؟ آیا زورتان میرسد؟ میخواهید بمب اتمی خود را استفاده کنید؟ یا قصد دارید جنگ داخلی براه اندازید که هزاران نفر کشته شوند و چند نسل بدبخت شود؟ یا اینکه دور آنها دیوار بکشیم و هر از گاهی بمبی روی سرشان بیندازیم تا آدم شوند؟

Again and again you say and falsify ideas in my name and then reason with it! A suggestion in general sir: Instead of (since your very first comment that Hovakhshatreh noted you on it)  telling what others think or stand for, just make your own point and allow me or others talk for themselves instead of putting words in my mouth!

Of course this regime (just as Shah's regime) has some base. The difference between us and IR (or your self-reflections above) is that we propose open society where everyone can be represented including the people that you mention. We promote democracy and they promote force. I oppose killing of anyone and I am also opposed executions. the rest of your comments are not even worth addressing...

خیر آقای دیوید محترم! باید فرهنگ دمکراسی را پرورش داد و به مردم آموخت. راه بسیار آسانتر و خدا پسندتری است. خرجش هم در نهایت کمتر است. باور کنید. به تاریخ توسعه دمکراسی مراجعه کنید. درکشور امریکا تا 40 سال پیش "کاکاسیاه" را ته اتوبوس مینشاندند و او اجازه نداشت در برخی مدارس درس بخواند و در برخی محله ها زندگی کند و در برخی مناطق خانه بخرد. اما مبارزه سیاسی به تدریج و با صبر و حوصله اوضاع را تغییر داد. آیا روش مارتین لوتر کینگ بهتر بود تا پلنگهای سیاه؟ و کدام بهتر نتیجه داد؟

US had a democratic constitution and IR doesn't. Not even comparable.    

اشتباه سوم شما این است که که میگوید حکومت حرف پذیر نیست و این را در عمل نشان داده. اگر جنابعالی رشد نیروهای طرفدار دمکراسی و قانون را در دوره سی سال اخیر نگاه کنید میبینید که علی رغم دیکتاتوری حکومت، نیروهای آزادیخواه و قانون طلب به تدریج رشد کرده اند. عمده نیروهای آنها از قلب خود همین رژیم درآمده است. اکثر کسانی که اکنون به خاطر دفاع از آزادی و قانون در زندان هستند کسانی هستند که در گذشته در این حکومت فعال بودند. اکنون به این نتیجه رسیده اند که حکومت قانون و دمکرات بهتر از دیکتاتوری است. این پروسه به تدریج بدست آمده و باید به تدریج تکمیل شود. گروهاه تندرویی که سالهاست با این رژیم دشمنی کرده اند – مثل مجاهدین و کمونیستها و نژادپرستان قومی و سلطنت طلبهای تندرو – قدمی برای پیشبرد فرهنگ دمکراسی در ایران برنداشتند و من بعید میدانم که در آینده هم بردارند. آنها دقیقا مثل نیروهای افراطی دست راستی هستند که در داخل حکومت به برتری مذهبی باور دارند.

If the political knowledge has improved is because of 31 years of maturity otherwise this regime has done everything within its means to prevent that and that actions and deeds of many of religious reformists that during their administration also only promoted and allowed Islamic thinking and nothing else. You sound like saying: If we want to politicaly mature we should thank the regime and its dictatorship, so lets continue.

No Sir, in a democratic environment we would have blossomed politically and in all social and individual aspects 100 times more. I guess starting today I should promote dictatorship and thank IR !!

I do not support extremism of any kind...

بنده از شما تقاضا دارم که همراه دیگر دوستانتان امکانات خود را برای کمک به نیروهای میانه روی اصلاح طلب بسیج کنید نه برای تندروهایی که 30 سال است توان و عرضه نداشته اند یک قدم برای توسعه و پیشبرد دمکراسی در ایران و خاورمیانه بردارند. از کمک به نیروهای افراطی مجاهد و سکولار که جز خون چیزی نمیبینند دست بکشید.

Stop false accusations Sir! have some decency! I oppose extremism. In fact MEK is not secular and stands for "Islamic Democratic Republic" ,....another side of the same coin as Islamic Republic  ...or Soroush and Khatami's "religious democracy"...all oxymoron's! 

تاریخ ایران را خوب نگاه کنید که ایجاد دمکراسی برای شما هم خوب خواهد بود. سعادت شما هم در حمایت از نیروهای میانه رو و اصلاحطلب و متعادل است نه احساساتی های تندرو.

Yes and democracy is possible under the secular constitution that I propose and not the one existing one ... 

سلامت و بهروزی همگی را خواستارم

شما هرچی اتهام را به ما میزنی و البته با احترام ! دست مریزاد ! 

نه این را خواستیم و نه آن،   بلکه صداقت کلام

All your comments and questions in 2nd post were addressed above already. You also wrote:

On secularism: You are welcome to campaign for secularism. I don’t personally think that secularism is my top priority. Tyranny can be secular or religious, as Pahlavi and Ataturk proved.. 

Mr. Saadat, I promote democracy and democracy under a religious and non-secular system is impossible. I do not only say secular but secular and democratic. visit www.iransecular.org

 سی و یک سال است که شما و دوستانتان ملت ایران را به نام ساختن دموکراسی سر کار گذشته ید ، و بجای رفتن سر اصل مطلب که یک دولت سکولار دموکرات است، جمهوری اسلامی را به حلق مردم فرو کرده اید  به عناوین و سفسته های  مختلف و ما رک و راست گفته ایم که دموکراسی در یک دولت و قانون اساسی دموکراتیک بنا خواهد شد و نه زیر ولایت فقیه و اسلامی  . دیگر بس است              

جناب آقای ممد و ناخدا عیوب

دستتان درد نکند.
از تذکرات دقیق و مفید شما سپاسگذارم. به نظر من باید خط میانه را تقویت کرد. بحث با گروه های افراطی و ایدئولوژیکی و کسانی که در چارچوب تشکیلاتی کامنت مینویسند فایده ندارد. خط میانه رو و اصلاح طلب را باید مورد خطاب قرار داد. مقاله اخیر آقای هدایتی – عضو مجاهدین انقلاب – به نظر من مهم است. اگر وقت کردید نگاهی به آن بیندازید. خوشت میشوم اگر نظر گرامیتان را ابراز کنید.
//bit.ly/9Mew1f
با احترام

Mr David - Respectfully

One point of criticism and one point of praise:

1. You fail to address the issues that I put to you

2. Thank you for supporting the reformsits even before the elections. And thank you for standing up to the extremists on both sides. That is indeed a worthy cause and worth pursuing further. We need to strengthen the middle ground. I support you on these points. There is a need for a common language.

On secularism: You are welcome to campaign for secularism. I don’t personally think that secularism is my top priority. Tyranny can be secular or religious, as Pahlavi and Ataturk proved.

PS. If I may say so Mr David, there really is no need for sarcastic remarks (e.g. “when adults communicate” and “I wonder why I should spend my valuable energy” and “101”).  I call on the honourable gentleman for a more restrained language.

I hope to read your views on the points which I have put to you.
Respectfully

Mr. Pirouzian: bravo. Your

Mr. Pirouzian: bravo. Your synopsis  articulated the gist of the problem Iran has been facing for the past 31 years.

Captain

In order to compare strategies we must first define goals or "desired end". What is your or other's goals? 

Here are the defined goals that I have listed:

تمامیت ارضی

استقلال 

جدایی دین و دولت

آزادی بیان و اطلاعات

برابری مرد و زن

رعایت حقوق بشر 

 محیط زیست پاک 

Are your "most desired end" the same? If not obviously strategies will be different too.

e.g: Mousavi has repeatedly said that he wants Islamic Republic and goals (rahnamoodhaye) his "Imam" Khomeini  

P/S

Let us all separate ideological aspects of change from strategic means.

Looking forward, let us discuss the means that can produce the most desired end. 

-YT 

Mr. Pirozian

All fine and dandy............

But can you detail HOW, WHEN, WHO and with WHAT?

Regards

-YT 

Saadat Bahar............

متاسفانه، همچون دیگر ملایان و همه کسانی‌ که به نام مذهب در این ۱۴۰۰ سال سر مردم را شیره مالیدند، شما هم همان مسیر را در این آخرین جوابتان با مغلطه و سفسطه ارائه دادید، و سوال‌های قبلی‌ که از شما شد را کماکان بی‌ جواب گذاشتید.

در جواب شما میفرمائید که با این رژیم ساخت و تغیرات داد، سوال اینست که این رژیم نه یک رژیم اسلامیست و نه یک رژیم ایرانیست، حالا چطور با این رژیم بسازیم؟ و کجاش را تغییر دهیم؟ شما چند مثل بزنید که این رژیم اسلامی عمل می‌کند و حق و حقوق ایرانیان را در نظر دارد، از ورود خمینی شروع کنید تا به امروز، از قول و قرار هایی که خمینی و دیگر شیادان بعد از او دادند تا به امروز ، کدامشان اسلامی و ایرانیست؟ شما چگونه میتوانید این غذای فاسد، پر از جرم، سال‌ها مانده را  با تغیرات برای مردم تجویز کنید، چیزی که اگر بخورند جز مرگ عاقبت بهتری ندارند.  

مشکلی‌ با موسوی و گروه سبز نیست، بلکه مشکل همانا ولایت فقیه هست، چرا باید یک نفر ، هر چقدر هم عالم ، دانا و و و آنچنان و انچنین باشد بتواند برای ۷۰ میلیون تصمیم بگیرد و همهٔ مسائل داخلی‌ و خارجی‌، ارتش، و، و، و تحت کنترل داشته باشد( البته از خامنه‌ای ابله که بی‌ سواد و محجر هست توقعی زیاد نباید داشت). چرا باید نماینده مجلس مردم از بالاترین ها جواز قبولی بگیرند؟ چگونه باید رهبر ، احمدی و امثالهم و کل سیستم ۳۱ سال پراز دروغ و تزویر، جنایت، خیانت را تغییر داد؟ مگر ممکن است رژیمی‌ که تا خرخره مسلح است و با پول نفت هزاران، و یا میلیون‌ها مزدور را که در خدمت دارد را تغییر داد؟ مگر قدرت اسلحه و ثروت بیلیونی میگذارد این شیاطین از قدرت کنار بروند؟ این‌ها می‌دانند که حتا با تغییرات هر چه قدر کوچک ، باز هم تقاص کشتار و ظلمی که در این ۳۰ سال شده را باید بپردازند، بنا بر این ، این آقایان، برای بقای خود تا هزار ها، حتا میلیون ها مردم را به نام نامی‌ اسلام محمدی نکشند، کنار نخواهند رفت. این‌ها می‌دانند که حتا باز ماندگانشان هم در امان نخواهند بود.

چاره چیست؟ ادامهٔ این اعتراضات مردمی، اعتصابات همگانی، ملی‌ و دولتی از جمله پیوستن ارتشیان، نیروهای مختلف ، همدستی همهٔ ارگانها ، از چپ چپ تا راست راست، و هر چی‌ دیگر در این مابین برای ساخت یک ایران آزاد، آباد، شفاف،مردمی و سکولار..   اگر این روش کارگر نبود، باید به نقشه بعدی مراجعه کرد... که هم اکنون جای گفتار آن نیست.

Mammad and Saadat

Sometimes I wonder if I should spend the valuable energy to state the obvious when I see the intent is not to really discuss issues for solutions but just superficial attempts to score a cheap point. If I want to address what you wrote (especially Saddat unsubstantiated comments about what I stand for!) I have to write an article longer than the blog, ...

***

When adults communicate above level 101, some things are presumed as known. e.g.

Of course many heads of army and some in the  Shah's army were defending him and monarchy, just as the Imperial guards were,.... but it  is obvious to non-biased readers that I was referring to the bulk of army personnel.

In fact the history is witness to my comment that it was a non-ideological and secular army. 16 days after Shah left you wrote?! big deal! Where was the armed struggle of the so called Imperial Army? hardly any! Where and when was the all out dragged out armed resistance and by whom?

Practically air force joined the people and the rest of the domino followed and most joined people and or put the arms down... That is what a secular army does , does not confront people when ordered and yes of course there were Jhaleh square etc but the full scale was not much. In fact not even facing their fall, Islamic Republic has already committed more atrocities than 1978/9 during Shah's era.

and even now, once the different sectors of society and industries start a national strike, the armed forced will eventually join too and I have a historical proof while your claim has not backing and in fact full of empty air!

and where is your beef or solution except continuing the same regime in one shape or form under the same Vali, supreme council system...after 31 years?

and you are telling me that liberlism and reformism did not exist from early days of IR, so who was bazargan, Taleghani, Shariatmadari ,......and the list continues and what happened to all of them? No we have heard same STUFF re-packaged again and again and guess what there are not as many buyers anymore. Remember the story of Lying sheppard? 

 ****

I wrote and offered solutions way before the election and many of what I said actually happened when those like you were writing that I was dreaming !

I wrote the constitution BEFORE the elections and before Mousavi /Karoubi become figures and before reformist even consider that other options are even possible to discuss. and in contrast to what you wrote, I even after I wrote and asked everyone to vote for Mousavi and campaigned for him too as opposed to others, to weaken Khamenei and Ahmadinejad...(blogs exist here)

Even after election I and many promoted the joint movement but lets not forget the following:

It wasn't seculars and other united oppositions who turned their back but it was likes of Khatami or even Mousavi who instead of supporting the united front , tried to please the regime and accused "others" and "saakhtar shekans" (just as regime does) as tools of foreign forces etc and insisted that they stand for Islamic Republic and..... instead of creating unity tried to appease to IR regime instead of the people, created a gap in the green movement. They presumed that if they got to where they are was only by reformers of IR where in fact if it wasn't for the 3rd alternative and the people who were tired of 30 years of IR, they would not have reached the so called leadership or had much votes just as Rafsanjani did not win against AN during last election when we boycotted it.

What became obvious , not even having reached the power they already have started their cleansing in words and action! God forbid if they get to power!

I and many will still support anyone who stands for common causes including Mousavi within the specific terms against IR but at this stage we will not turn our back to Iranians who are clearly calling for Separation of Government and Religion and standing to the regime with their lives and blood. 

You and religious reformists defend the system , not for democracy because democracy is possible under a secular system. The truth is that you and religious reformist want to continue to shove your religious beliefs down the throat of others just because you think your beliefs gives you superiority...

I reject none and in fact I have stood up to the extremists of both sides during elections and been accused of cooperating with system for participating in election. In fact I and many like me are disliked by both extremists of both camps, but then that by itself is a good sign that this fine line in between that is not tainted by ideology, religion and emotionalism is the right place to be.

We the  seculars are inclusive of every thought and belief and that is exactly what we stand for . It is just that those who want to force one thought or another on others seem to always reflect their own way of thinking on ours and be exclusive to others.

In future Iran, unlike past and present regime, there is room for all as long as they respect one another.

Khomeini (regardless of his views) was successful knowing well when leading 1979 revolution who was his  audience: the people and he was not trying to compromise with the regime of the time nor appease to them,,, the reason green movement is starting to weaken is not because of the people but because of its leaders started to divide the people to religious and non-religious , not having the understanding after 30 years that people are people and a leader should not divide them or accuse them because of their personal beliefs.

as for solution what is the reformist's solution? Keep asking Khamenei and regime to be nicer and be democratic? as if tomorrow they will wake up and say. OK sure!

The people and the movement surpassed the current leaders practically the day after election and if Mousavi's had any goal of making a serious change, already we have had national strikes and possibly the regime had toppled but that is NOT what they want...

Solution as I have mentioned is to unite, organize even in cells of 3-7 around common democratic and secular goals and the cells to connect and organize. It starts with getting the word out, being on the map, not appeasing, education and offering the alternatives.

If reformist leaders are in the scene and others are not, that is only because the liberals and seculars were cleansed way before the current cleaning during that post 30 years and this is the last curtain of religious dictatorship that now has caught the legs of its former friends too...

My first solution has been and still is to:" believe in ourselves" and that is the problem that reformists have: they do not believe in the people and therefore are willing to catch any piece of meat that is thrown at them by the regime just to claim short lasting victories.

Islamic Republic of Iran by its constitution and history and actions is not reformable and it took 31 years for the some to come to that realization and there is no way back once that has enteredthe people's conscious.  

and you know what? You are right! We can't as long as we (or reformists) believe and say we can't and they day we the people believe we can , in less than "16 days" its all over ! mark my words!

and no I am against adventurism , armed struggle and alike and in fact I went on record on this site and others saying that people should not be asked to go and stand in front of guns while the so called reformist leaders continued to use people for power show without any major planning and gaols to get rid of the system and just as part of their power struggle and what did we get, so many imprisoned, tortured, raped and killed ....

The days after election, people already showed up in millions and showed their numbers ...there was no reason to encourage that again and again when there is no structured planning .

In a war or battle , leaders must have a set goal, tactic , strategy and goal and exit strategy. What was the goal of these by keep asking people to get out? asking the monsters to change their way? Pulease ! 

While millions were supporting from all walks and views , that is time to start national strikes (and I brought it up early on) and not to divide the people , wear them out, send them to their death beds, have their faces and emails and homes known...

There is so much to say and let this be the first place that is told here by me.... so much that was done wrong and still being done as if people are players or fans of a soccer match or a lottery tickets ...no this has turned to a power struggle and is no longer about the people and principals when one really and deeply looks at its players and their actions or lack of it!  

Enough said... I am posting this unedited and ask , so excuse the grammar and spelling! 

Mammad: "Rhetoric and hot air" is right...

You ask: "where is the beaf (sic)? Where is the solution?" What is your solution? To "reform" the IRI? Who are the so-called reformists and pragmatists in the IRI? Mousavi? Khatami? Rafsanjani? These three fine folks were Prime Minister or President for 24 years straight (1981-2005)! Who else? Karroubi (twice Majles speaker)? Soroush and Moin? Both were involved in the Islamic Cultural Revolution. Why support the same gang that has been at it for 3 decades and expect different results? Every one of these reformists is intensely devoted to Emam-e Aziz. You cannot reform the unreformable, and the IRI is exactly that. I suggest either accepting the IRI in all its glorious 3 decades of accomplishments, under both reformists and principalists. Or make the goal regime change.

You can't shut me up, it ain't your IRR

“Advocating war” where and when Islamist liar show the proof!

“Lie about Ebadi” where and when you Islamist liar, show the proof!

Of course you are proud of what you have done, which Islamist is not.

BTW, speaking of Ebadi, you never answered the question about your buddy, her brother Jaffar and the rumor he worked in charlatan Khatami’s office.

Ps. VOA was a flop

Put up or shut up

What rewrite of history? That is your expertise imbecile, if you know what history is, as opposed to your fabrications and hallucinations! Either put up or shut up!

You, the one who has been advocating "airtight" sanctions that will bring destruction, misery and hunger and lead to war with Iran, you the one who said, "fortunately the IRI does not have the bomb yet, so it can be overthrown" by military attack, shedding crocodile tears for Iran and Iranians? Shame does not even exist in your dictionary.

Who do you defend when you adovcate sanctions and war? Change your mirror. A mirror should show you when you look into it, not people like me. Tell your handlers to get you a real mirror! 

When you lie about me and other people who comment in this thread, you demonstrate once more that you are even worse than the worst in Iran. Your zeal for war and destruction on Iran are so deep that you impulsively attack people on this website constantly.

I am proud of what I have done, publicly with my full name. What about you? Hiding behind a bogus name, advocating war and destruction, and propagading lies and hatred. What other "accomplishments" do you have? I'll put up my track record of defending Iran's "enemies," not to mention my scientific work, against whatever you have any moment!

Those "enemies" of Iran are in jail, and you attack them? Those "enemies" of Iran have invested their entire lives for making a better more humane Iran and you attack them? The stench of your hatred-filled behavior is madenning. Whoever the hell asked you to "defend" Iran? You should wash your mouth 7 times before even mentioning the word, let alone "defending" it!! 

Go back to your corner and lie about Ebadi others. That is what handlers assigned you to, Freddo!

Mammad

Islamists' defender at large

Ain’t it nice, the Islamist nuke lobbyist who moonlights as “reformists'” defender at large is quick to defend his Islamist brethrens with a rewrite of history? Keep on defending the enemies of Iran and Iranians, keep it up.  

Rhetoric and Hot Air

With all due respect to David ET, this is one more piece of rhetoric and hot air without any practical solution whatsoever.

First of all, the statement about the Imperial Army is totally wrong. That army was loyal to the Shah, not to the nation. For every photo of the type that is at the top of your piece, there are five during the Shah's era. All you have to do is taking Khamenei off the photo and replace him with the Shah!

I am not saying that there were not truly patriotic officers; to the contrary, but that the structure of the armed forces was such that the loyalty to the Shah had been equated to loyalty to the nation. So, label the Imperial Armed Forces anyway you want, but you cannot wash off history with the stroke of your pen.

To see this, just read Asadollah Alam's Memoirs. He was not an IRI in-closet agent, but a close confidante of the Shah for decades! In one page he describes a meeting between the high command of the armed forces and the Shah, when the Shah says that they should protect the Constitution "AS I SEE IT AND EXECUTE IT." That says it all. No one said, "Your majesty, we are loyal to the nation and the Constitution as is wriiten, not you."

The loyalty of the armed forces to the Shah was best manifested after he left Iran. He left on Dey 16, and the Army collapsed 5 weeks later, despite the best efforts of General Robert E. Huyser!

As for the rest of the article: Everything that you say may be true. But, where is the beaf? Where is the solution? There is not a single word about it, other than saying, for this to happen, that has to happen. Yes, we all know that, but how will THAT happen?

Since "drafting the interim constitution," you have been constantly attacking the reformists in Iran. Your attacks are factually incorrect, and practically useless. The reform movement began in the 1990s, not right after the revolution, as you keep repeating.

Moreover, any movement has ups and downs, especially in the repressive environment of Iran. In 1997 and 2001 people voted overwhelmingly for Khatami, and in 2000 for the reformists for the elections for the 6th Majles. But, the same people did not support those in 2004 who staged a sit-in to protest the vetting of the candidates by the Guardian Council.

But, in 2006, only a year after AN took office, we saw the overwhelming votes for the reformists in the elections for the City Councils, the huge welcome to Khatami at Tehran University, and the shouts of "death to the dictator" around campuses, simply because only after a year of AN people had a base to compare. 

Thus, the very fact that there is a democratic movement is due to a very significant extent the existence of the reform movement.

Therefore, if you think that the changes that you and your type are seeking can come about without any participation by the centrist/leftist, and even some moderate conservative groups in Iran, whom you reject all at once, you are having sheer fantasy. 

And, please do not claim that you are speaking on behalf of a large group of Iranians in Iran (as you did in one of your responses). You are not (in fact, no one myself included, is). The most you can say is that you and your friends think so. That is respected, but by no means represents the consensus of a large part of the population. At least, I have not seen any evidence of it.

Mammad

نیروهای اصلاح طلب و میانه رو دست بالا را دارند

جناب آقای دیوید
با احترام

به نظر بنده، اشتباه اول شما در خط مشی شماست. فرق گروه جنابعالی با رفرمیست های آزادیخواه ایرانی این است که شما میخواهید رژیم جمهوری اسلامی را سرنگون کنید و آنها میخواهند دمکراسی را بسازند. میان این دو نظر از زمین تا آسمان فرق است. اهداف شما یکی نیست. رفرمیست های ایرانی برنامه هایی ارائه میدهند  که به جنگ داخلی نینجامد و موجب کشتار نشود و اسباب یک کشور آزاد و قانون پرور فراهم شود و آزادی بیان و بردباری سیاسی و مذهبی مورد احترام قرار گیرد و نهاد های مدنی شکل بگیرند و احزاب سیاسی تشکیل شوند و تفکیک قوای حکومتی میان مقننه و قضاییه و مجریه پذیرفته شود و طبقات مختلف اجتماعی وظائف و حقوق اجتماعی خود را بشناسند و به اجرا بگذارند. دلمشغولی سیاستی که شما و همفکرانتان ارائه میدهید فروپاشی حکومت اسلامی به هر قیمت است. به همین خاطر تمام روشهای ممکن برای این کار- یعنی فروپاشی حکومت - را مطرح میکنید. برخی از آقایان محترمی که در این ستون مطلب نوشته اند و رابطه آنها با شما برای من مشخص نیست – به غیر از اینکه خود را طرفدار شما معرفی کردند و شما هم به آنها ایرادی نگرفته اید – تزهایی مطرح میکنند که در کشورهای متمدن به عنوان روش آدمکشی شناخته میشود.

روش بحث شما و دوستانتان این است که بدبختی های ملت ایران را میشمارید و انگاه روش مسلحانه و فروپاشی نهادهای دولتی را پیشنهاد میکند. دردی ندارید که سرانجام این کار چه خواهد شد. دردی و پیشنهادی برای ایجاد دمکراسی و قانونمداری در گفتارهای شما دیده نمیشود. اینکه بدی های این حکومت را ردیف کنید هنری نیست. هنر این است که راه حلی برای برقراری نهادهای دمکراتیک ارائه کنید. مثلا اینکه چگونه نهادهایی که برای دمکراسی ضروری هستند بسازیم.

اشتباه دوم شما این است که میگوید این حکومت بر پایه زور حکومت میکند و نه با تکیه بر مردم. این حکومت - چه ما بخواهیم و چه نخواهیم - پایگاه اجتماعی دارد و ندیدن این واقعیت نه تنها گرهی از کار ما بازنخواهد کرد که آن را سخت تر هم خواهد کرد. فرض کنیم که در انتخابات ریاست جمهوری اخیر جای رای آقای موسوی و احمدی نژاد را عوض کردند. در این صورت احمدی نژاد 14 میلیون رای آورده است. شما با این جماعت میخواهید چکار کنید. آنها را بکشید؟ آیا زورتان میرسد؟ میخواهید بمب اتمی خود را استفاده کنید؟ یا قصد دارید جنگ داخلی براه اندازید که هزاران نفر کشته شوند و چند نسل بدبخت شود؟ یا اینکه دور آنها دیوار بکشیم و هر از گاهی بمبی روی سرشان بیندازیم تا آدم شوند؟ خیر آقای دیوید محترم! باید فرهنگ دمکراسی را پرورش داد و به مردم آموخت. راه بسیار آسانتر و خدا پسندتری است. خرجش هم در نهایت کمتر است. باور کنید. به تاریخ توسعه دمکراسی مراجعه کنید. درکشور امریکا تا 40 سال پیش "کاکاسیاه" را ته اتوبوس مینشاندند و او اجازه نداشت در برخی مدارس درس بخواند و در برخی محله ها زندگی کند و در برخی مناطق خانه بخرد. اما مبارزه سیاسی به تدریج و با صبر و حوصله اوضاع را تغییر داد. آیا روش مارتین لوتر کینگ بهتر بود تا پلنگهای سیاه؟ و کدام بهتر نتیجه داد؟

اشتباه سوم شما این است که که میگوید حکومت حرف پذیر نیست و این را در عمل نشان داده. اگر جنابعالی رشد نیروهای طرفدار دمکراسی و قانون را در دوره سی سال اخیر نگاه کنید میبینید که علی رغم دیکتاتوری حکومت، نیروهای آزادیخواه و قانون طلب به تدریج رشد کرده اند. عمده نیروهای آنها از قلب خود همین رژیم درآمده است. اکثر کسانی که اکنون به خاطر دفاع از آزادی و قانون در زندان هستند کسانی هستند که در گذشته در این حکومت فعال بودند. اکنون به این نتیجه رسیده اند که حکومت قانون و دمکرات بهتر از دیکتاتوری است. این پروسه به تدریج بدست آمده و باید به تدریج تکمیل شود. گروهاه تندرویی که سالهاست با این رژیم دشمنی کرده اند – مثل مجاهدین و کمونیستها و نژادپرستان قومی و سلطنت طلبهای تندرو – قدمی برای پیشبرد فرهنگ دمکراسی در ایران برنداشتند و من بعید میدانم که در آینده هم بردارند. آنها دقیقا مثل نیروهای افراطی دست راستی هستند که در داخل حکومت به برتری مذهبی باور دارند.

بنده از شما تقاضا دارم که همراه دیگر دوستانتان امکانات خود را برای کمک به نیروهای میانه روی اصلاح طلب بسیج کنید نه برای تندروهایی که 30 سال است توان و عرضه نداشته اند یک قدم برای توسعه و پیشبرد دمکراسی در ایران و خاورمیانه بردارند. از کمک به نیروهای افراطی مجاهد و سکولار که جز خون چیزی نمیبینند دست بکشید. تاریخ ایران را خوب نگاه کنید که ایجاد دمکراسی برای شما هم خوب خواهد بود. سعادت شما هم در حمایت از نیروهای میانه رو و اصلاح طلب و متعادل است نه احساساتی های تندرو.

سلامت و بهروزی همگی را خواستارم

قانون اساسی ج اسلامی یعنی یک نفر برای ۷۰ میلیون تصمیم می گیرد

Moosir

1- Some of us do not have the luxury of freely wondering in Iran like you do.

2- The view I am relecting is by many from inside Iran. This is 2010 and there are tweets, photos, videos and blogs coming from Iran in Persian by the minute! One does not have to be there to know what is happening

3- What in my comments have anything to do with being in Iran or not? That 31 years of so called reforming IR has not worked? Do we have to be in Iran to know it hasn't? Do we have to be in Iran to see the blood oozing out of Neda's eyes and nose? Do we ...

I hope you can do better than : You don't know because you are not in Iran ! 

and where do you live for claiming that you are "in touch"? Iran!?

If you and other friends have anything to say: Step in and state your views in detail like the rest of us instead of cheap meaningless hit and run, one liners that we are so getting used to see by you, Capt, Q, Saadat, .....

visit: www.iransecular.org

David ET

You are simply out of touch. Please take a trip to Iran and familiarize yourself with the realities facing Iran. Then come to Iranian.com and talk to me about what is possible and what isnt.