www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Faramarz

interesting way of putting it :-)

I must say I find it interesting that most readers focused on the US portion of the table and not much discussion was made about Iran. I guess Hypocrisy of IR is so obvious.

replies

MM: I could not figure how to put the table in that blog, so I simply put the link to it.One of the readers somehow put it in its comments. The thing with daily kos is if you cant get attention right away, the blog gets burried fast.

VPK: Good point about Republicans vs Obama. I must add the reverse goes for many democrats too . If Obama does it is OK, if Bush did was bad. (eg: bail out, Afghanistan, Iraq, tax breaks, etc)

David, you need to place the exel table where the polling is

at //www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/28/960826/-Hypocrisy-for-Dummies

Without the exel table, it is confusing as to what / why you are asking to say yes/no.

David add this

If you are a Republican and Obama did it : Very Bad regardless of what he did.

David

Sorry I misunderstood you. I am glad we agree: sometimes taking help from anyone is better than not.

Great Table

Thanks David. Great Summary!

Here is my way of looking at the same data.

King + Oil = Saudi Arabia, Bahrain –> Safe for now

Not a King + No Oil = Tunis, Egypt –> Gone, Yemen –> on the way out, Syria –> Shaky

King + No Oil = Jordan -> Safe for now

Not a King + Oil = Libya, IR Regime –> Gone with NATO help

Hamsade jaan

Good to see you :-).

Dear MG

Please read my entire comment and reason that I brought up to reach that statement...   I refuse any U.S aid packages for regime change in Iran ......... that is just my opinion ........ I do not want rebels like Mojaheed get armed with the U.S help and our entire country get bombed by Nato .... I do not want to see months or years of civil war ....... result of more and more innocent deaths ........ not even knowing who is going to be their chosen puppet to replace iRI ?    But do not get me wrong ....... I still want things get upside down for IRI. I want all its dark ages policies to be destroyed...I want the Islam part or any other religion in that matter get wiped out of the republic .... But in my humble opinion we need to achieve it from inside ....... it is a process ..... it may take some time but it is achievable and result can be seen as the people's achievement ........ 

U.S aid packages are up to no good ...... war and blood shed for nothing ... only to end up with the same Khar but different Paaloon ... 

...

Sosani just how in the world did you come up with that? You say:" we should also flush any dream of freedom and democracy down to the toilet," and you oppose IR?

P.S. I though all this Admin stuff was a software? 

Admin, can you confirm this one too?

David, when a blog is hot because of its high number of comments, that is only true for 24 hours. IC is very exact. Once your blog's 24 hour is up, then it is not hot any more :). I mean if you posted your blog 6AM on 3/27, then even if you have highest number of comments at 8 AM on 3/28, it will not be shown as hot . Any way, admin again can confirm.

Thank you Anahid

After looking at it further, seems like HOT TODAY section applies to those that get lots of readers vs. comment, so that explains why.

Dear David, Admin can confirm but I suspect the reason

that your blog is not featured is that even without it being featured, it is getting many comments on it and fair number of readers. On the other hand, some blogs, if they don't get featured, theyhave no chance of finding significant number of readers. Any way, admin can confirm this.

حاج خانم

حاج خانم دستتون درد نکنه!

HG

I have googled for Neelofar  ...... and that Got me to the not so talented Andy .......... you can join his band in search of your lost Neelofar 

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Fqwql9Cic

now get busy with that and please do not jump in the middle of serious conversation ... 

Something is wrong with IC math

In the front page HOT TODAY section, there are blogs with as little as 5 comments considered as HOT and this one with 16 only today still is burried !

peace, haj

peace, haj khanoom....peace....don't get your mansies in a knot. :)

HG

you make me laugh ...... now seriously who is this neelofar ?  you keep mistaken me with her ....... is she an old flame or something?

hell with iRI and Israel government both ........ if you are a true freedom fighter you can not side with any of those assholes !     

david, interesting table. 

david, interesting table.  indeed the hypocrisy of different nations in the region is highlighted in your basic matrix.  i'm also not surprised that niloufar khanoom is in support of the country in the middle column: democracy for bahrain (good), democracy for libya (good and bad) with an honorable mention of israel! :)

Thanks David for your

Thanks David for your honest feedback on these days events. You are very articulate and logical.  I am sure your points are well taken by the silent majority readers here on IC .   With Bahrain the hypocrisy is beyond belief they not only have turned  the blind eye on the entire issue but they also have encouraged Saudis as well as six other Arab nations to move in and aid in suppressing the demonstrators. The demonstrators that are not even armed..........  If this is not massacre I do not know what it is !! 

While in Libya they have armed the rebells and they have bummed the hell out of the entire country. It is a war , it is an invasion and to be very nice to the current situation it is like a coup d'état but since they did not have the support of anyone in Gaddafi army they had to do it through the Nato channel....... they have no idea who are these rebels that they helping and they have no logical replacement for Gaddafi ..... well .... he will for sure be replaced by another dictator ..... so flush any hope for Democracy down the toilet ..... I believe this is what they have in mind for Iran. Arm the rebels ( using Mojeheeden khalg ) then bomb the hell of the country. if that is the case then we should also flush any dream of freedom and democracy down to the toilet cause the only agenda these neocons have is security of Israel and they do not give a damn about human rights and democracy in Iran. We shall face another dictator puppet quite similar to IRI....... Let us hope that I am wrong and none of the above is going to be the case with Iran. let us hope people on the streets of Iran achieve true Secular Democracy that they deserve without any so called U.S aid packages ....... 

VPK

Read again!

I said NO , I would not "turn down their help", how would I end up with the dead?!

David

• Let us assume USA is a hypocrite. Would you turn down their help if some dictator is killing you?

NO.

David, you stand on your principal along with a lot of dead. I stand with my LIVE family and gladly take the help. To each their own.

US policy

VPK I am going to take a shot at your other questions:

• Let us assume USA is a hypocrite. Would you turn down their help if some dictator is killing you?

• How does Davi's point of view fit into Stalin vs Hitler war. Both were rotten and evil. But without Stalin's help Hitler may have won. That would mean probably no living Jews in Europe at the minimum.

• In short should USA be helping the rebels against Gaddafi.

I think international community must take a proactive role in case of defending the human rights of Libyans and US "within that scope" must do its responsibilities. I support the no-fly zone. The question has not been as much about US role in Libya , but more in double standard when it comes to its dictator allies such as Bahrain etc

VPK jaan: maybe we just keep missing each other points

I don't think either of us (David or I) are saying US is a hypocrite therefore their help should be turned down, I like to see a more consistent approach with all these dictators and believe to be in the long term benefit of this nation as others.

We are (or I am) saying, first lets recognize what we (US in this case) are doing, is it a right policy and to the long term benefit of US interest? Arguably, hypocrisy is not to the long term benefit of an individual or nation, correct?

Once we recognize that, then perhaps we can work to change it. This does not mean to turn down US help when it is offered, only to make those policies consistent (i.e don't protect one tyrant while you go to war with another one)

Your Stalin/Hitler example is not a very good one for the following reason

- US had no choice but to fight Germany as Germany had declared war on US, so joining that war was not for the love of Stalin

- US did not compromise/protected or allied with Stalin, they became arched enemies once the war was over

A more accurate example perhaps can be given about US/China relationship, where support for human rights is taking a back seat to economic benefits and cooperation with the communist China

Mehrdad

Thanks David, I just saw this

Let me study this in more detail but I wanted to thank you for your blog. The table format helps in comparison.

Dear Mehrdad

I have criticized the US government plenty of times. In fact I was very critical of the downing of the Iranian passenger plance; then lying about the whole thing.

However I will repeat my questions:

• Let us assume USA is a hypocrite. Would you turn down their help if some dictator is killing you?
• How does Davi's point of view fit into Stalin vs Hitler war. Both were rotten and evil. But without Stalin's help Hitler may have won. That would mean probably no living Jews in Europe at the minimum.
• In short should USA be helping the rebels against Gaddafi.

Great point Mehrdad

"criticizing US government by its citizen, even the first generation citizens does not constitute hypocrisy. This is one argument often cited by those who wish to silence the opposition with all manners possible"

In fact to support your point, I created an online campaign during Obama's campaign for presdency and was constructive in gathering 25,000+ supporters, many of which gained more support but at the same time I was among the very first ones who critisized his bank bail outs and how he addressed the real estate foreclosures (there are blogs in iranian.com to support that). At the time I was qestioned that it is too soon to judge etc etc but today I was proven right that the foreclosure problems was not resolved at all and corporations now (based on last week news) are making historical profit margins, while economic problems persist, because Obama followed the same trickle down economic policies of the past and bailed out the wall street and not the main street.

I have also been critic of the Obama's war in Afghanistan and now the double standards with respect to uprisings in Middle East and N. Africa.

Despite the critisms, coming 2012 as an independent , if there are no better alternative, although i will not campaign for him anymore but  I will have to vote for him versus presently known alternatives. 

I must say that last time Ron Paul was my preferred choice. 

Dear VPK:

I did not want to be rude and not respond. I believe you and I think the same in principals only vary in details. My way of thinking is much more in sync with David's, in fact I can say 100% so at least here. However it must be noted that he is far more articulated then I am.

I only want to point one thing, please keep in mind that criticizing US government by its citizen, even the first generation citizens does not constitute hypocrisy. This is one argument often cited by those who wish to silence the opposition with all manners possible and I know for a fact you are not one of those.

Mehrdad

A poll I created on the subject

//www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/28/960826/-Hypocrisy-for-Dummies

Dear VPK

First, don't be so upset just because we disagree. It is OK if we do, I have nothing personal about you in my remarks.

Second, so many of us tend to group people's views as a bunch and address them accordingly. My chart had US, Iran and Saudi's and somehow you are the one who took the US discussion and I responded. I DO NOT blame it all on US and never have and in fact oppose those who do. So please when responding to me, respond to what I write not to what you presume! another example was the conversation in last blog of mine where I stated in two occasions that I agree that Islam is more militant than other two religions and yet I did these religions also have much in common. Yet you made comments such as no disagree that all religions are the same!

and here are your answers :

1. What is so bad about removing a dictator? 

1. Did the fact that Stalin was a bad guy make his opposition to Hitler wrong?

1. Is it that America being hypocrite make its opposition to Hitler; now Gaddafi and IR bad?

Beating up USA

Is very popular among many people. It has been so for decades. There are good reasons for it. However people miss the part about alternatives. However many of these critics live in the USA. Pay taxes; use the resources and live in safety provided by the USA. What are they themselves but hypocrites?

USA is a hypocrite and has been so under most administrations: except Carter. That also happened to be the one that did most harm to Iran. Carter said he was for human rights. He opposed the Shah and went to Khomeini who promissed human rights. The result is 32 years of misery; terrorism and you know the rest. Nixon was a hypocrite. He was also a liar and a cheater. But he had the sense to know bad from worse. If Nixon or even Ford was president Iran would not have fallen to IR. 

Now I want to know how many of you would rather have a honest Carter. How many prefer the non hypocrite who brought the IR and the Taliban. 

David: go ahead. Be idealistc. That is another word for "all or nothing". If it is not perfect then we don't want it. I will take half a glass instead of nothing. USA is a mixed bag and the wise know how to get the most from it.

The Kurds in Iraq are wise. They got their de facto independence. They are safe and Americans leave them alone. A USA soldier told me recently they feel safe with the Kurds so they don't bother them.

The Shia and Sunni are unwise. They dig in their heels. They kick and scream and make war on each other. The Taliban are even less wise killing their own countrymen with no reason at all. 

But the "cool" thing is to blame it all on the Americans. Specially while living there. Isn't that being a hypocrite.