Faramarz's Latest Rambling

Re: How ironic ....

No irony at all. The Arabs were destroying all the books they could. The books that did get preserved in Pahlavi were mostly by the Parsis. They were Zastoshti's who escaped to India in order to remain Zartoshti. It makes sense that they would preserve their holy books.

Many other books were preserved by Iranians by translating them mostly into Arabic. These included notable works such as Kalileh va Damneh which were preserved but are no longer available in their original Pahlavi. Many Arabic works on Mathematics and Medicine are also based on Pahlavi books. Another notable one is Khodainamak which is the Pahlavi prototype for Shahnameh . The original texts is now lost by Ferdowsi's work remains as one of the pillars of Iranian literature and culture.

My point is that there are plenty of books remaining from pre-Islamic times. It just happens that most non Avestan ones got translated with the Pahlavi versions now lost. And we have the Arabs to thank for it :-(

How ironic ....

How Ironic that the main book that you brought up as an example from your golden pre islamic era, is a religious one , the AVESTA.

I rest my case.

Re: Not even one book has survived that era.

Just a side bar. If you are refering to the Sassanian ear, there are a number of books that have remained. This despite the best effort of Arabs and Iranian Islamists to destroy them. There is not a lot because the Arabs did a through job of destroying anything they could. But Iranians specially the Parsis did preserve what they could. In addition books like Shahnameh are based on now lost  Pahlavi texts e.g.. Khodainamak. So plenty of our literature goes back to pre Islamic ear.

Now many of these are being made available in their original form as well as translation. If anyone is interested here are some links:

//www.avesta.org/pahlavi/

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Persian_litera...

Re: Get a grip

Statements like "Get a grip" are meaningless. I deal in logic not slogans. 

Anyway, on one hand you state that West is somehow different and able to have a secular democracy while we cannot. On the other hand you claim they don't have a secular democracy. Well which one? Anyway, I am happy with a constitution that enshrines separation of religion and state. As to its implementation it won't be perfect but nothing is.

Regarding learning from the West.  We should be willing to learn from whatever sources are available. You accuse others of racism when they object to Arab influence. Yet seem very much xenophobic when it comes to the West!  This way of thinking is reminiscent of the xenophobia advocated by Al Ahmad and his anti-Western ideology. There is nothing shameful in learning from experiences of others. I am not so arrogant to refuse to learn from anyone including the West. 

Get a grip on yourself.

Not entirely true. Religious beliefs directly affects policies in US. Different states have different laws in regards to abortions and same sex marriages which are mostly influenced by religion. All presidential candidates have played the religion card during the elections. Religious figures are super active in politics in southern states. Christian right wing and conservatives have their own coalitions to affect policy making. Christian and jewish lobbyist continue to affect foreign and internal policies. I can go on and on. Do you need more?

"You argue that because we have lived a particular way then we should not reject it and go down a different path. If we use your argument  then Monarchy has been in our culture much longer than Islam. So by that reasoning we have to go back to Monarchy"

Monarchy has never left Iran. It has changed characteristics but the idea still exist and haunts Iranians. Currently we have a mix of " God given authority" and religion that rules over Iran. This is the path that people have chosen and the one laid by history.Its a double whammy working together. A monarch doesn't have to live in a palace,you know. Do you see my point?

"It also happens that the religion we had for 4600 out of the "6000" years was not Islam. In fact even after the Arab invasion for most of that time until the Safavids the majority religion was Zarthoshti. So I guess we need to have a Zarthoshti republic"

I see the point. But Islam has been the most recent history out of the 6000 years. More than %90 of our heritage whether its literature, architechture, cultural arts, etc has been from this latest period and we know very little ( comparatively ) of the era that you speak of. Not even one book has survived that era. While there is nothing wrong to be proud of our distant past, trying to build on something that very little is known is illogical, specially when you are undermining the most recent history of a nation for the last 1500 years.

"Because something was invented in the West does not make it bad for Iran.  Just see how many mobile phones are used in Iran!"

Thats a bizzare remark. Mobile phones and ideologies do not belong in the same league. Its humiliating for any iranian that after 6000 years of history and civilization, now we have to look at west to show us how to govern ourselves. Get a grip on yourself.

Arab/Muslims will be blamed...

In a Free and Secular Iran of tomorrow, there will be enormous challenges that requires enormous sacrifice and efforts to re-build the tragedy of 1400 years of ignorance and slavery to a Satanic religion. All our future shortcomings will also be caused by the cancer of religion (Islam and ignorant backward muslims in Iran).

This 1400 year cancer that has infected Iran and so many ignorant people and on so many levels must be abolished and eliminated from its source once and for all, if Iran and Iranians of future want to live in and with Freedom, Peace, Advancement and Prosperity.

It is already obvious that the young Iranians in Iran and outside have woken up! They know and comprehend that such fanatic and backward mentality, practice and system is an absolute failure ! It is  becoming clearer and more obvious as the entire world (including Iran) evolves with the help of technology, correct information and education!

Be Omide aan rooz...

Amazing! Faramarz_Fateh is reforming!

It is a pleasure to see FF actually look at things a little more realistic. Amazing. Yeah, these are the real questions. Once you look at it, you will realize that the regime is nothing! It is the people that are HARD to fix! But no fear, it can be done.

No fear!

Your argument is so filled with holes that I am not sure where to begin. So I begin here:

• Americans are very religious. Yet they have a secular democracy. If you think otherwise then you just don't know much about Americans. 
• America is the proof that there can be a very religious people in a secular democracy.
• Lets ignore America. Iranians are much closer to Indians who have also proved that a religious people may have a secular democracy. 
• You argue that because we have lived a particular way then we should not reject it and go down a different path. If we use your argument  then Monarchy has been in our culture much longer than Islam. So by that reasoning we have to go back to Monarchy.
• It also happens that the religion we had for 4600 out of the "6000" years was not Islam. In fact even after the Arab invasion for most of that time until the Safavids the majority religion was Zarthoshti. So I guess we need to have a Zarthoshti republic !!
• Because something was invented in the West does not make it bad for Iran.  Just see how many mobile phones are used in Iran!

Now lets get real.  Times have changed and so have the Iranian people. The Islamic Republic has proved a theocracy does not work in modern time. Not just that but the Taliban and other Islamists have provided additional proof.  We need a practical workable system. The one with a proven track record is a secular democracy. It proved itself not just in the West but in many Eastern nations i.e India; Japan; and all the other successful prosperous nations.

No Fear, You cannot be 50% pregnant

 
You either are, or are not! Secularism means just that; religion out of the ruling system and process, ie. The State. 

Religion CAN be a part of politics; ruling system and process is different than politics.  In the U.S. many many attempts have been made at making the U.S. a Christian country.  These attempts have always failed.

You also say "There are many different interpretations of Islam and in general, Islam is a peaceful religion. Besides, compare to many other islamic countries in middle east, religion in Iran has been very progressive with relaxed laws inregards to abortions, stem cell research, usage of condoms and etc, while it toned down its law on stoning and preteen executions."

There is NOTHING peaceful about Islam.  It is about force, oppression and killing.  So, in your mind, a goverment which allows stem cell research but kills 14 year olds, places women beneath men in terms of rights and station in society, kills people who change their religion and jails religous minorities for just being that, is OK??!

WOW.  People like you amaze me. 

Pure Secularism has no cultural base in Iran.

As long as you compare western ideologies which were developed by a completely different people under completely different circumstances with completely different cultural background with Iran, you will be out of touch with the realities. You sound like a person with Azari ( turkish ) accent while calling yourself George! If you dig western standards and values so much, you will probabely have a happier life living aboard and better leave Iran alone.

A certain amount of secularism , seperation of religion from the state, is however, needed. I agree with you in the principle if you meant that superstition and dogma should not take over reasons and scientific methods specially when you run a government.

In a democratic country, as long as you are not picking up arms or siding with the enemy, you may persue any ideology even if you are copy catting it from a european version. However, you be greatly out numbered by political parties that fully understand the power of religion within the people and know how to fully use ( or misuse ) this awesome power. Do i need to remind you about the role religion played during the war with iraq?

Another blogger argued that religion has been a part of our politics from 6000 years ago. obviously, something with a history that long, can not be removed from our politics easily.  Instead of burning down this bridge, try putting it to better use for now and forget about eliminating it. There are many different interpretations of Islam and in general, Islam is a peaceful religion. Besides, compare to many other islamic countries in middle east, religion in Iran has been very progressive with relaxed laws inregards to abortions, stem cell research, usage of condoms and etc, while it toned down its law on stoning and preteen executions. This points to a different version of islam that is quite opposite to other versions of being dogmatic with no interpretation of the "word".

It does not mean we will

It does not mean we will have a perfect system. We will still have to hold the feet of those in charge to the fire.

Who ever we want

There are plenty of people to blame. Having democracy does not take away our choice of people to blame.

• The ruling party as DavidET suggests
• The voters for having picked the ruling party.
• The opposition for blocking the ruling party.
• The IRI for 30 years of mismanagement
• The MKO for being kharabkar
• The British because they must have done somthing !!
• The US
• Each other
• Israel
• Whatever religion we want.
• The Trilateral commission
• The Illuminati

See there are plenty of people to blame. No reason to be worried.

ruling party

In a secular republic usually the party in charge gets blamed for wrong policies.

I think everyone who believes in secularism should have the right to be elected.

I am working on 4th draft of a proposed secular constitution. Here is what it says about the subject:

Article8

The government of Iran is secularand there shall be no official religions or ideologies. The government of Iran shall remain independent of any religious institutions and influences.Government shall not promote any specific religions, ideologies or personalbeliefs. In order to secure the Separation of religion and the state,the secular constitution of Iran strictly prohibits participation of anyreligious based groups and parties in all local, regional, provincial andnational institutions of the government. This would also extend to anyone whoholds a religious title or leadership, clergy and alike.Religion and religious groups will have freedom to practice their religionpeacefully. Individuals within the government may have personal religiouspreferences but they cannot enforce any religionbased laws and restrictions. 

Article 9

Secular republic of Iran observes noofficial religions for the country. Secular in nature, everyone in Iran istreated the same, regardless of their religion or lack of it. All religionswithin the limits of the law and without limiting or violating the guaranteedindividual and human rights within the constitution are free to perform theirreligious rights, and to act according to their own canon in matters ofpersonal affairs. The individual and human rights as guaranteed by theconstitution shall always prevail and take precedence over religious andideological preferences and beliefs.  

 Article 10

 No armed militia or partiesare allowed to run for public office, hold government positions or control any public financial resources unless they resign and disarm.