Souri

HollyUSA

Ohhh... de begoo pas de. How was i supposed to know? I mean who would have thought you were talking about "social arena" in general When in one sentence you pile it all the way to the top with men's insecurities and their lack of proper reinforcement!!

So long as they (women) do not deceive and manipulate, I could care less for anything else. Those are the main things that frustrates me and drives me crazy.

Dear Azadeh

Unfortunately, you are not the type of person who ever learns from her mistakes.

As you can see, all those people who were involved with that episode over a year and half ago, have moved on.

That's everyone except you.

You have to understand onething: Harboring hatred and resentment towards others hurts you first and foremost. As I understand, you are a lady in your sixties. However, unfortunately, you haven't learnt that lesson yet.

Respectfully,

R2-D2

P.S. Dear Souri: Please do not waste your time dealing with someone who has such an attitude like Azadeh. Unfortunately, it is an exercise in futility.

Kourosh Khan

Who's talking about relationships?? We're talking about the social arena in general. And how come you can't come up with just 5 characteristics?? OK come up with just 2 that you have come across! You must have come across TWO that you can remember that you based your statement on, no?

Ey baba

Souri khanoom

Chize mohemi nashod. bekhoda migereftam , montaha mitarsam khoon moon biad... eftezeh mishe oonvaght:)

Iranian mommies sometimes let  their nazi nazi girls do  the growing up all on their own and certain things that needs to be taught gets neglected. Yes. I have BIG BIG objections to that:)

HollyUSA

I wish i could come up with a top 5 or something like that, but i do not view women that way. I know it when i see it. I really don't know what Improper"reinforcement" you are referring to here? are you trying to change the subject and blame it all on men?:) I am definitely not seeing your point, but one thing that i do believe is that men and women come into a relationship with their own totally separate baggages and one's shortcoming can not be blamed on the insecurity or lack there of, on the other part.

Capitan khan:

Pure Pure?:) or semi-pure? Is your book the older edition or the lastest ?:)

Lotf dareed ostad:)

.....

Thank you for your kind words, dear Anahid.

---

Dear Souri,

We need to agree to disagree.

As a poet, I wrote my personal experiences (including my observations) and my feelings of what I had lived as a woman in Iran. I was not concerned about the psychology of the aggressors.

However, as a sociologist and a psychoanalyst, I would write about the socio-economic, cultural and psychological reasons behind the older generation of Iranian men's intentional violence against women in public (as in private), the pleasure it brought to them and its crucial role in defining their manhood in their own eyes and those of their peers.

I have never been mad at you :-)

Azadeh

As this is related to the subject of this blog....

If I may, I want also to mention that I wasn't agree with the sense of that poem of yours, neither.  Here, I don't agree with you.

In my belief, those men who were acting in that way in the past, were also the victims of our culture and the bad education. Although in shape, it is very similar to the intimidation of women by men, but in nature, it is a completely different action, in my eye.

Those guys, were not aware that they were intimidating women. It is different from a so called intellectual or educated Iranian man who deliberately intimidate a woman, just for getting his point.

Of course, this is a difference in point of view and not the real reason for my reaction to your blog.

Hope you are not mad any more :)

Dear Azadeh, your poetry is excellent

Azadeh jan, I don't remember all your poetry but I have seen some excellent poems from you. One that comes to my mind is what you wrote about celebrating holidays online with online community of friends.  I was just going to post a link to it but could not find it.  I look frward to the poem that you will post this weekend.  Thecatcalls happened a lot.  Once a construction guy near my junior high was yelling my name and I noticed that my lunch "ghablemeh" had my name on it , hence him knowing it.

Souri khanoum

I don't recall having ever met you in Montreal. sorry.

Regarding the issue with the character Sha'er, the reason why I insisted he was lying was that I had an undeniable proof that people with some knowledge of the Internet websites and their functioning easily understand. Like Sha'er, I was one of the moderators at the time and had seen his name and the exact time (day, hour and minute) he had deleted a comment and had added his own to deceive the public. My insistance on exposing his fraud came from the fact that "iranian.com website" had in its programme a special setting for the identity of a moderator and the time he/she did do something on the site. It showed an undeniable proof that this Iranian male was a malicious liar and a charlatan, as biased as other cyber characters such as JamshidR, R2-D2 or Natalia who don't waste time to attack me by giving a link to a totally malicious and slanderous blog against me.

JJ who knows about the functioning of the site was convinced of this guy's guilt. Just because you, Souri, did not understand my unrefutable proof, it does not mean that there was no unrefutable proof.

Still, what was important in this episode was the fact that Sha'er's hostility towards me came from my having written a poem where I told the world the truth of the way many Iranian men of my gen eration treated women on the streets of Tehran and other big cities under the Shah. Period. You, as a woman who defends the women's rights, should have known better. I had described, in my blogs, the reason behind Sha'er's irrational antics.

By deleting a positive comment that some unregistered person had left for my poem, Sha'er was BOTH getting rid of a positive response to my poem AND justifying this deletion by accusing me of having written it myself! An accusation that he could not prove. What he did was a malicious act by an Iranian male against a woman poet who had divulged the truth in her poem (as all poets should do) about the way many Iranian men treated women in public places in Iran.

I am proud of my poem, and intend to publish it again as blog this week-end. A mature and progressive man would apologise to all Iranian women on behalf of all those chauvinistic and backward men who harassed us in public instead of giving link to a malicious and slanderous blog.

Regards,

Azadeh

Azadeh khanom

I take your Cheers, for a promise :) and tell you the truth.

The reason for my reaction to that blog of yours was simple. In fact I have never been a fan of Shaer. I couldn't even understand his poetry. It was not because I appreciated his works (or not appreciated yours for that matter) that I responded to you that way.

It was because, you were accusing someone (Shaer) of doing something, which was not obviously proved to us to be true! You tried many times to bring the proofs, while he was saying that he DIDN't do what you were accusing him of doing!

And that has gone for too long.....Other people came to talk on behalf of Shaer (I believe his friend's name was Jamshid) and you accused them of being also Shaer. Even a lady came to talk to you and you said, that was also Shaer......anyway.

My problem with that story, was not that I thought you were not right. It was that the guy was saying that :He didn't do that! and you still were insisting on proving him to be a liar.

I know that due to the virtual character of the internet, we all get into the paranoia and guessing game. This also happened to me (still happens :)) to think that someone was the author of some negative comments to me. I replied to that person and said that I know she was AW. Then AW said that I was wrong and she was not that person. No matter what, I accepted her statement and apologised.

When someone says, they didn't do something, it is faire to let it go. Trying to prove that they are lying, is nothing healthy for the community. That was my point at that time.

Otherwise, I don't know if you still recall me from the time you have been living in Montreal (I do recall you) and if you do, you must know that I have always been a woman rights defender, since I was in my early 20's.

Cheers,

Craig

Coming from you is a definite compliment. I am glad though that you could spell it, quite of an accomplishment for you.

Sweet dreams........... and do not sweat it too much.

-YT 

Souri Khanoum

:-)))

Cheers,

Azadeh

Ayhab

I think everyone knows what a gentleman you are :p

Mr.'s KouroshS, Kharmagas

In my book [As thick as War and Peace] you two are the purest gentlemen ever.

As to myself, that is whole another War and Peace story yet to be written.

-YT 

که از سوال ملولیم و از جواب خجل

Azadeh khanom,

I wish you wouldn't ask that question. But if you insist, I will answer your question at the condition that you promise you won't get mad at me again, Would you ?

Almost two years had passed now and we don't have all the facts and also your blogs are now deleted too.

I am so glad that you opened the conversation now. I have never had nothing against you. You are a very high educated lady and I'd never questioned your integrity. But you are also over-sensitive and I am......well, I am Souri :)

what abour our cases (to Kourosh)

Kourosh syas: "To mention the major failure of many iranian mommies in bringing up real ladies."

Kourosh jAn, what about my case and your case? In my case my nane (*), and in your case your mommy had major, major failure in creating real gentlemen.

(*) for some of us Esfahanies nane=mommy 

KouroshS

I actually would agree with you that a lot of Iranian women can improve but I happen to think that their shortcomings are to a great extent a result of improper reinforcement from the Iranian men who in turn engage in the behavior to compensate for their own insecurities. But that's beside the point and entirely a different topic.

Now I'm curious, what qualities would you attribute to being 'ladylike'? Your top 5 will do.

I'm puzzled

Dear Souri,

I do agree with you on the content of this blog and empathize with ON's resentment for the way she was treated. However, I do not understand why you support some women while attacking some other women (such as myself) for the mistreatment they receive from the Iranian male - whether in the form of intimidation, or harassment, or plain insults.

I recall that two years ago, I was grossly harassed and offended on this website by a character by the name of Sha'er. Not only you did not support me as a woman harrassed by this Iranian male for having written a poem he did not like, but also you attacked me for a blog I wrote about his abusive behavior.

My question to you is this: Are you motivated by a general noble principle, or are you only sensitive to the case of some women whom you happen to like for whatever reason. Thank you in advance for taking time to respond.

In friendship,

Azadeh

lynch mob mentality!?

I do not know which blog you people are talking about but seems to me that the lynch mob mentality is in full swing yet again .

can someone provide a link? I am so tanbal I do not have time to check everything. 

-YT 

Chi shod?

Kourosh khan: lotfan zabouneto gaaz begir. The Iranian mommies make Iranian mommies from their girls. Do you have any objection to this?

Shepesh aziz: Thank you so much for your great words. I love you too :)

Souri jan

You know how much I like you. I just thought HONESTLY he was just talking like a doctor! I have high blood pressure (yes I am old) and get the same from my doctor when my family suggest get alternative medicines etc. I think they are trained and want to help people and want to stress the importance of proper medicine in important cases. So he sounded just like my doctor! they are very nice people really, but have to stress things to us sometimes. Anyway, you know how much I repect women . But sometimes men can't do anything right. Open doors for them, they get insulted thinking we are demeaning them. Then you passionately debate or disagree, and they think you are harassing them. Not always but sometimes. Just wanted to say we sometimes get mixed messages and dont know which way to go, soft or straight like men talk.

PS: love you all, and it is good to talk! Its good to get things out in the open so people know how to behave in the future to stop misunderstandings. Dont delete your blog.

PPS: Am so glad you are back ....  :)   xxx  

And let us not forget

Just for the sake of fairness , To mention the major failure of many iranian mommies in bringing up real ladies.

XPC

"but there's probably no avoiding that to some extent other than
socializing males a little better. Like you'd do with an unruly puppy
:P"

Yeah but I don't expect to, nor do I feel like I should have to, train adult human beings as if they were puppies. Their mommies should have done that but let's not get into the failure of a great many Iranian mommies in raising their boys to be men :P

Thank to all of you

Specially to dear Shepesh that I value a lot.

I left a message for Mr Karimi in that other blog and I hope if there's any misunderstanding here, it will be quickly resolved. In that case, I have to either delete this blog (which I am very much reluctant to do) or change much of its content.

Respects to all,

Souri & Holly

They first do an intellectual gymnastic with the party, to see who is bigger. In the other words, they evaluate their forces. So they may or may not take an offensive and superiority tone to put down the other person. 

Souri, that's a game of dominance not an "intellectual gymnastic" :)

You can easilyobserve the same behavior when you see two male dogs encounter eachother for the first time. They will go through a series of butt sniffing/mounting/nipping/etc rituals until they figure out which of them is the boss, and if it isn't obvious they'll often get in a serious fight to establish that. After they have it settled #2 dog joins #1 dog's pack.

And yes, I really am comparing men to dogs!

So anyway, it's unfortunate some guys try to play the same dominance games with women. That shouldn't happen. And that's one reason why I prefer female co-workers... in my experience the dominance games are dispensed with in male/female relationships. But maybe that's culture-specific.

Holly,

They always say women make better leaders and much of the blog content here as well as Anahid's point about the baseless comradly conduct typical amongst males, are very good indications of why.

Well, I guess I'd generally agree with that in a corporate/business setting. But you do males a dis-service in my opinion by calling male "pack" behavior baseless! There's a very sound natural cause for males to behave the way they do in the face of a threat. It's unfortunate that behavior gets translated into social environments so often, but there's probably no avoiding that to some extent other than socializing males a little better. Like you'd do with an unruly puppy :P

Shepesh jan

Thanks for your input.

1) In that blog, Mr Karimi had really offended ON, with his words. No matter if his intention were not so bad (that I think it was but I may got him in a wrong way) but as a simple reader who didn't want even to enter to the discussion, I've got so much outraged that I couldnt hold back from expressing my idea.

I don't know Mr Karimi personally (not that I should have known him for objecting to his way) and I don't know what was his true motivation when he almost agressed ON, but I'd found it really not nice.

Maybe as a medical person he is too much under the impression of the dangerous aspect of the Swine Flu and that's why he acted like an excessively alarmed person.

I don't know. But honestly I didn't like the way he exposed his idea. You don't need to belittle other people to prove your point. Was it really necessary to go trough all those comparaison, and evaluation of the qualification ?

He could just say: I am a medical student .....and I think.....because in our clinic..., period! No need to attack other people who are bringing another idea.

2) You said : "We both know of one man who was accused and blocked for this, and accused again of something serious for the sake of spite"

I don't know who you are talking about? Who is accused of something serious for the sake of spite? Who are you talking about?

And what is the relation between this and my blog?

3) The reason for I posted this blog was that Mr Karimi insisted on his way again, today. I would let it go otherwise. In my blog, I did not try to victimize women. I tried to magnify this bad habit of the Iranian men. Of course we, the Iranian women of the site, know how to defend our rights and stand against those macho-men who try to bully us.

I appreciate your effort for clarifying the subject in hand. Hope you are right and I got it wrong last night. I hope Mr Karimi is not offended, in which case I apologise to him and will ask him to apologise to our dear ON too.

Souri jan

I have just read the article in question and do not think that he was trying to intimidate but giving his professional opinion as a doctor. It has nothing to do with  whether the being male or female. I am giving you my honest opinion. You can passionately defend your position and not be sexist! There are many people who intimidate on this site, but Mr karimi is not one of them. I wish that you had created a blog about intimidation in general, instead of singling out one person and being personal. Then we could discuss that in general and see how we can improve standard of commenting on this site.

Believe me, Iranian women really know how to stand up for themselves and this website shows that. There are many occasions as well where  have witnessed them wanting equal rights in discussion to be treated same like men in the world, but when it suits them they use the "harassment" thing to say I am a woman, you are being tough on me. Some can be quite manipulative. We both know of one man who was accused and blocked for this, and accused again of something serious for the sake of spite. You either want equality or you dont. There is no half way. You probably witness me and other males getting continuously intimidated . It goes with the territory on this website.

They always say...

women make better leaders and much of the blog content here as well as Anahid's point about the baseless comradly conduct typical amongst males, are very good indications of why.

As for the Dr to be (enshallah if he doesn't get kicked out of med School for bad attitude), let's hope his mentor manages to improve his communication skills and thus bedside manner so that he can actually get patients to practice on once he does graduate.

Thanks Souri jan, I missed the blog but your concern is valid

Dear Souri, I have not read the blog that you have written about but I do understand your concern very well.  One thing that stood out about you in my mind months ago was that in the comment thraeds you were excellent about stating your positions and not being intimidated.  Once I was on a commnet thread and I was not intimidated but was not feeling like I wanted to continue the argument with the writer.  You were on the same thread and had the same position as me and you did well stating your positions.  I was impressed and  glad that there was a voice supporting my position. 

 Back to your general concern, it is really a valid one since I have seen it time and time gain.  One concern that I have is that guys think that they automatically have to defend ecah other if they are friends.  Therefore, they support every position of their friends on this site.  However, women don't do that.  They support another woman's position only if they think it is right not just because that lady is their friend who is writing.  I believe this is preferrable to blindly supporting your body's position.  Thanks for your blog.