The Mrs

I agree with your point that

I agree with your point that the Palestinians have to take a new position with Israel...but Israel must take a new position as well. The Palestinians need a central political figure that can convince them to abandon the militaristic Hamas. Israel needs to win over the hearts and minds of Palestinians by through incentives. This will not be possible if Israel continues to kill thousands of civilians and hundreds of children. As the occupying force Israel needs to be the bigger political entity, and develop a new approach to the Palestinian problem. For this to happen Israel has to come to terms with Palestinian's right to have a portion of the occupied lands.

--
Frank
Personal injury lawyer

Mehdi Mazloom, in the first post on this thread you wrote:

Until, the Islamic world engages with honest and open debate about the essence of religious belief, and the concept of spiritual engagement, As long as their entire lives are surrounded around one man, where two standard of moralities (one for Muhammad and another entirely different to the masses) are enforced on people, we are not going to see any of those accomplishment (for the pal) which you had mentioned.

Please, lets remember that, the European themselves went through the same upheaval during their mid-devil era. That was during a period when they were under the yoke of the Vatican and the pope. They were backward, filthy and primitives.

That all changed when they decided to separate church and state. After which they showed the Pope where his place is - back in the Vatican, and stick only to matters of religion and spirituality. A result of which we see today.

The same stroy more less had repeated itself in Japan, and S. Korea. where cult personaly gave way to pluristic form of societies

END POST

_________________________

1. You seem to recommend a reformed Islam for the Islamic world (Palestine included) but then you segway into separation of churcch and state so I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe that a reform of Islam would be ANALOGOUS to separation of church and state. Anyway...

2. Israel does not have separation of church and state.

3.  Europe did not sit down and "decide" (over tea?) to separate church and state. It was a slow process over hundreds of yeas. It involved horrific wars in England and Germany between religions. It was tied to development of Capitalism in which a state church is not helpful to the "spirit of capitalsm". Vestiges remain: the monarch of England is still head of the Anglican Church, which proves how slow the process was.

4. Japan???!!! Japan did not separate church and state until having tortured, gassed and eviscerated China, then being bombed to vaporization by the same US that iget them back on their feet. Well okay throwing rocks, now rockets, suicide bombers, is not the same as what Japan did and Israel hasn't dropped an atom bomb yet but in terms of decimation, we're getting there, we're getting there in that SWISS CHEESE of a Palestine. Only question, will Israel help them get back on their feet after the fallout?

Mehdi Mazloom this happens all the time. Desperately I try to meet the Zionists on this site halfway, always something like this pops up. Not saying Palestinians don't distort thing too but you know what? Zionixtx xhoulc know better than to come up with such flimsy argumernts. Why? Because the Jewish inellectual tradition may be the oldest in the world. We are the only ones whose religious initiation (Bar Mitvah) has been READING for what? eons?

I WANT to find the common ground with the Zionists other than I'm Jewish too but then alway same ol' same ol' This round  you come raililng at me on my Zionazis blog, questioning the truth about the story I told about my past, how I found out about the massacre of the Palestinians in 1982 and the effect on me. You sneer at me. You interrogate me, a million questions, I answer every single one and ALL I ASK YOU is to show me documentation that Israel did not light the flares FOR the massacre on purpose. No, not ask, I beg you, I tell you I WANT to believe it.You cone back on my thread and write a ten paragraph post to someone else. You ignore me.

Then you go to my next blog and praise Zion who wrote this AWFUL, cruel ceasefire blog. All I ask you is once again, WHAT ABOUT THE FLARES, And to go back read that ceasefire blog and tell me it's not moral dirt.

What do you do? You disappear. Oh, guess what, I found you! Here, talking about how Palestine should "decide" to--what? reform Islam or separate church and state, well whatever--like Japan DECIDED to do???? Incredible. This kind of stuff tears me to shreds.

Why do some of the most educated people on earth as a group and by FAR the most educated in the vicinity of Israel do things like this? Can't you just come up with honest, straightforward arguments in defense of Israel? r.

?!!

What is this with my identity that all of a sudden has become the focus of the Zionists on line?! Does anyone else have to disclose their life story for all to see?! Do I ever ask anyone else who they are or where they live or what citizenship they hold?!! At first, I was accused of being a Palestinian. Then although born in 1966, I have been accused of committing anti-Semitic crimes during the 1950s and 1960s in Tehran?! In order for that to be true, I would have to have started anti-Semitic activities at the age of 3! And based on what evidence? What have I said or done that I have to be character-assassinated by the Zionists all over this site?! I have said it before, and I repeat it, Please; if you find any untruth in what I've said below, I'll be happy to be proved wrong!

However, if it makes you feel any better: No I'm not in Iran at the moment, but will be there soon. I still am an Iranian citizen. I have never lived in the U.S., although I have relatives who live there and had job offers while I was in there. I do not wish to live in the U.S., never have and never will. No offence to anyone here, but I do not find the notion of Iranian-American acceptable. Don't take that personally, but if a reason is warranted, it's partly due to growing up watching Vietnam and hearing and reading about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and can not bear the notion of being associated with an entity involved in those affairs.

Ajam

i'm confused. are you implying that you live in iran NOW? i hope you're not suggesting that you're writing on iranian.com from iran.

themrs. i meant to comment to you as well. your article was intersting and really really REALLY did give me pause to think. damet garm.

Dear Mrs.

How do you propose population of 1.5 million, who are concentrated in [open-air] PRISON, and under constant attack and humiliation by Israeli goons, whom are near starvation on a daily bases to choose a leader like Obama?

At the expense of being called Hamas supporter, did they not DEMOCRATICALLY elect Hamas to be their leaders? Rest assured dear lady, even if entire Arab world, and Iranians, were to convert to Judaism TODAY, Israeli's LUST for blood and land will not be quenched.

capt_ayhab [-YT]

It's next to impossible

For a little kid who grows in the middle of gangs in the United States, to make it in this country. Most fall in the trap of their fathers and mothers. Imagine this simple example and multiply it to a large number, be my guest and choose your own degree of magnification, then rewrite and let us know how one should look out of the box when the gun is pointed at their head!!

Jews don't believe in God anymore

And that's what Palestinians should follow. The Jews have put aside God and have asked help from laser guided bombs and F-16I and Napalm and nuclear weapons and "surgical strike" theories. Instead of relying on God to help them win, they have decided to change side. Palestinians are still hoping God will come and help them. Be like the Jew - become Godless man! For God's sake!

Bijan A M

I do believe this guy Ajam is who you think he is. I don't believe for a moment that he has never lived in the U.S.

Pardone?!

Dear Bijan A M, I am 43 years old, and at the time you are referring to, I was either a newborn, or not born yet! And FYI, I have never lived in the United States, though I have visited U.S. a few times. And where I was born was Derakhti street ( to be specific, Shahreza, between Pol-e Choobi and Darvzeh Shemron). At the age of 9, I moved to Jahanshahr-e Karaj, and right now, my house is in Mehrvilla, Karaj. However, I had an aunt who lived near Maydoon-e Sorayya and now that you said, I remember crossing Moinieh and Azimpour on our way to her place.

Nevertheless, I can not be the person you claim I am, for none of your descriptions fits me. I am nowhere near the age of retirement, moreover, self-employed! And contrary to what you think, I never treated minorities in any demeaning manner, for I was taught batter than that. With my father being atheist and my mother agnostic, I always felt somewhat as a minority myself! I still don't know how to pray (namaz) or even do ablution...

I grew up with Jewish neighbours and socialized with them on regular basis. My friends now may have immigrated to Israel for while I lived next to them, their grandparents moved to Israel. Here is a part of what I posted in another blog in that regard: "Our friends whose grandparents were orthodox Jews, at a certain time on Friday evenings, would come and ask me or my sister to go to their place and turn on/off the lights, and subsequently, the next day to go and turn on/off their gas stove and... May be it was a way for them to keep our company!"

While I feel ashamed by what you were put through by your bigoted neighbours, I am appalled by your unfounded accusation to implicate me in such heinous practices based on mere speculations.

Furthermore, I feel sorry that you equate my critique of Israeli policies as prejudice against Jews. You either are still affected by what you (due to no fault of mine) went through around 40+ years ago, or intentionally trying to associate my arguments to hate speech, which I find an under-handed and disingenuous tactic.

If you find what I have said below untrue, please do point them out and don't hold back. But please, don't try to character-assassinate me with some irrelevant 50 year old story!

Dear Mr./Ms. Ajam

I think I know you….I grew up, virtually next door. It is really amazing to see someone from your old (40+ years ago) neighborhood on this site. You may remember Gorgaan street and Moinieh intersection. That’s where I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s. You sound like a very well educated and professional person who went back to Iran after spending most of your adult life here in the US. You are probably collecting your pension and social security and have a luxurious life style in the homeland.

I can’t help it, but you may also be the same guy who harassed the jews  (called them bad joohood) in your neighborhood and  also called them “najes”. It is sad that you kept that mentality and prejudice to form your opinion about the Jewish state. I hope you could see it from both sides. But, what can I say, such is life. You like to advocate and perpetuate violence to protect “pride”. You are willing to invest, not only your life but the lives of your children and grand children in something that down-deep in your heart you know will not bear any fruit.

Sleep well,Sir/Madam.   

Thank you TheMrs,

for speaking sense. I may disagree with you in many parts of your post but I whole heatedly agree with the gist of it. It would be to everyone’s benefit and specially the Palestinians, if they negotiate a peaceful settlement (even if it means humiliation and loss for them). As I have posted repeatedly on this site, they can divert all their talent and energy, and the support of the whole world in building a nation envy of the civilized world on a piece of land that would be a few kilometer square less than what it could have been. But, to get there requires change of attitude and beliefs and state of mind.

For many with Middle Eastern pride, be it Arabs or Persian, this is beyond comprehension. But, the bitter reality is that, that’s the only solution (IMHO). So, thank you again for speaking the common sense.

Humanity

Dear Mrs, thank you for caring enough to write the blog in the first place. I meant to say that earlier on, but in the heat of the moment I forgot!

Thank god,

for your wisdom , if we did not have you , what would have happened? Now that you solved their problem it is time to do some house cleaning ;D

Thanx

Dear Monda, thank you for the kind words... I've learned more than I contributed here!

By Obama I meant someone who

By Obama I meant someone who can mobilize people and give them hope.

Mehdi mazoool , this is for

Mehdi mazoool , this is for you

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jafOCyU-Eg

so i think you should love ahmadinejad , because he is like you , furthering zionist agenda and you dont have to be jew to be zionist ( Biden said ) , now get this :

//www.realjewnews.com/?p=77

jews comited genocide against 1.5 milion armenians and +1 milion in ukraine and black slavery , and they not were MOSLEM nore pals ! and pals were %14 christians , say all of pals become christtian today

same way in Warsaw getto if jews would convert to christianity , it would not save them , so pals changing thier relgion will not save them from nazis

zionists line : we are modern and westernized , islam is backwarded and STONE people , ( cluster bomblets instead )by same logic spanish slaughtered MAYA indians even after CONVERTED !.. ,really those indians were BACKWARD just like moslems today , so they desereved it

by this logic we have to enthicaly clense indians and africans and moslems and give thier land to more civilized ( western ) people ..

leader like obama ? the only

leader like obama ? the only thing he leads is #s of isreali citizens or supporters in his government :

www.bollyn.info/home/articles/middleeast/barack-ob...

www.realjewnews.com

www.rense.com

Babak SD - have you read UN Res. 181?

You wrote:

1) Israel was created by Winston Churchill and Harry Truman. It was not
occupied by Jews. They were told to go there by great powers of post
WWII. After formation of State of Israel, as it is well known, there
were 2 wars during which Israel captured additional land;

Nah, this is not what really happen.

Israel was created as result of UN vote in 29 November 1947, approving the partition of Palestine into two states. One for Jews, and one for Arabs. In fact, the part which was granted to Jews was much smaller then they ended up with state of Israel.

Also, the "well known fact about the creation is Israel" as you had stated, is far cry from your own interpretation of what really did happen and the events leading to Israel's creation.

In less then 24 hours after Israel was granted permission by UN to declare its sovereignty and independence in 15 May 1948, no less the 6 Arab states had declared a Jihad on the tiny Israel. They amassed armies to "drive the Jews into the sea". (Their words not mine)

How this young state had manged to survive, it was a mix of heroism, lots of chutzpah, and ingenuity. (I would suggest you to read about a secret weapon called "Davidka", which was used to fool the invading Arabs into believing they are facing the supper powers themselves).

Not only the Israelis managed to hold on to their land, they also conquered more land from the invading Arab. International law is very clear about it. If you commit unprovoked attack against your neighbor. And if that neighbor manages to defend itself and along the way conquer more land from you, you lose that land. Period.

Since at that time, there was no organized state called "Palestine " (remember Arab had refused the partition), recognized by the international community (UN), then from a legal pov, all bets were off, in regards to "Arab land".

Now, you and others can argue the merits of Israel's action all day long, but these are the facts. That is the very reason why the western and other countries who do adhere to these laws, have recognized the state of Israel and its new boundaries.

The fact that, Jews and Israelis moved on and built themselves a very advance societies where 5.9M Jews are proud to call home, while Arab still stuck in the first gear of development, that is a subject all by itself in a seperate blog.

Ajam

You articulated my views much more clearly than I ever could. Thanks for your contributions here and on the other threads.

dont worry

paash keh beresseh misheh takaavar o chert o pert . tak beh tak,dast beh dast (hand to hand combat) bebineem chikaaret mikonam. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... lol...aadam foroush.

My bestess friend :)

please flatter yourself, yes. if you could please explain the rational of war rather than talk nonesense. oh oh it hurts that "your not my friend" im frowning, no really. you can make such a case yet when it comes to reality (I WAS JUST BEING NICE) yet yea, your not my friend. FROWN, wow, yea efff offf really, no please keep up the argument for your beloved Hamas...? dude seriously? I mean cmon daadaash ma keh badeeto nemikhaayeem, you know dude? its like your full of it?

The game!

Damon Jaan(s), you seem to be losing it. You have started to speak in tongues (Chaleh Maydooni and/or Darvazeh Ghaari!) that I don't speak. Your personal attacks do not merit a response, however, if you find anything to debate abut the logics of what I've said so far, go ahead and say it. But if you want to turn it into a p***ing game, you win by a big margin, for I do not unzip in public -- if you catch my drift!

P.S. And please do not refer to me as friend or dadash, for I have standards for choosing my friends!

Amrika'ee men asl al Ajam

First Im happy and proud your defending a people, that prior to recently no one cared about, not like Darfur,(US is going there now) more like Congo, or Zimbawbwe masalan migim beh, cheshmam. valli nah balleh. Mikhaay bejangi??? Haaji beh man migan Damon Takavar'e Avval.

My friend, yes absolutely. When the Baghdad government bombed the innocent men, women, children of Iran, Teheran resorted in bombing them back. Just because you commit an atrocity doesnt give me an excuse to commit an atrocity. Get me? If you beg of war? Than why not discuss the complete and utter destruction that the 2006 war in Lebanon had on those communities? Yes, they were able to fight off the invading forces, they had their whole f'ing world destroyed mannnn. Yannni chi daadaash??? Yanni bikhod boood, you want to get your new "expeditionary forces" off??? No mannn, war is bad, full estopp.

Agar jeddan delet misoozeh barayeh in badbakhthaye' Gaza, pas komak kon, boro pezeshki kon (mesleh in Jewish ha keh enghadar badan, nah?) boro yeh kaari bokon, agar mikhaay begi jang jang taah piroozi pas dude your time is up... everybody knows your full of it.

No in your first words you tried to destroy any retard that cant read. NO, dude if you want war, then dont bitch when you get war. Cliche, know peace, no peace.

Dooset darim and good things, PEACE

The cause

Damon Jaan(s), you said, "Yes, any decent person who is aware of the history is gonna feel atleast a little sympathy towards the Palestinians." and at the same time you say, "However, when you seek war and you receive what you asked for, what is there to complain about?" Based on that logic, it appears that the latter seems to be providing the answer to your former statement. So why bother posting it on the net? you seem to be thinking out loud, in contradictory terms, and yet direct your self-debating questions at me!

However, if you wish to know my position with regard to the armed resistance in Gaza, I'd be glad to oblige. I believe in Israel's right to exist (behind the pre-1967 borders that is) and support a peace agreement that addresses the settlement issue (by dismantling all the illegal settlements) and which specifically deals with the fate of the millions of refugees, who lost their houses and land to Israeli usurpation, by either recognizing their right of return or outright compensation.

Israel thus far has been dancing around the issues for on the one hand it wants a sweet deal peace agreement (that would leave some settlements behind and ignores the fate of the refugees...), and on the other speeding the settlement building in the West Bank and gradually pushing Palestinians out of East Jerusalem to alter the demographics to its advantage! That leaves the Palestinians in a peacful deal with Israel with no credibility. If there’s an election in the occupied territories today, Hamas will win again. Not because Palestinians are genetically prone to violence, but because they see that they are losing their land anyway, so why not make the life for those who have taken their land for settlements miserable?! Even if Hamas gives up the armed resistance today, there are armed groups that will take it from here with widespread public support!

Indeed, Hamas is not the best representative of the Palestinian people, who for most part, are among the least religious and most educated people in the Arab world. Nevertheless, they support Hamas so long as it keeps fighting the occupation. The issue of Hamas' not recognizing Israel is not irreversible as Fatah used to insist on the same issue, whereas now it has become a close ally of Israel. That is why Hamas enjoys more popular support, for majority of Palestinians believe that Fatah betrayed them by prematurely agreeing to recognize Israel while it still occupies their land.

The majority of people here seem to be oblivious to the relation between the cause and effect in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Armed resistance is not the cause of Israeli occupation and settlement buildings, but the other way around, it is a direct response to it! During the past 3-4 decades, Israel has never stopped expanding its illegal settlements in the WB territories. It once came close to making a commitment to do so when PM Izzak Rabin agreed t implement the Oslo accord's requirements, but he was assassinated by an Israeli extremist, Yigal Amir, and things resumed to normal for the Zionist expansions the next day.

In fact, Israel is very astute in its use of terrorism and violence. As we have witnessed, there are seldom assassinations in the Israeli society, but the ones that occur, are of a game-changing nature. Yigal Amir has become a national hero of Zionists who bombard his house and family with flower wreaths and well-wishing messages constantly!

Israel also uses re-occupation and bombing campaigns as bargaining chips in its war of attrition on Palestinians. It in effect is a win/win situation for Israel, for should Palestinians give up and submit to peace on Israeli terms, it's a success, and if not, it's got its settlements going for it. It could take longer that way, but it's not going anywhere, for encroaching settlements will eventually live no land left for Palestinians anyway!

P.S. In the last post what I meant was: No, I'm an Iranian.

Zion, come back to reality please

Dear Zion,
I wanted to ask you how long it has taken you to create the imaginary universe you seem to live in. What does "Brits jailing the Jews" have to do with formation of Israel?

For a change, read some real reference historical books. It will help you gain a better perspective on reality.

Ajam Jaan

After reading your comments I come to the conclusion that since you claim a non-violent approach will not work, therefore you must be assuming a violent one must be used? Hasn't this approach been used literally to death, already? Yes, any decent person who is aware of the history is gonna feel atleast a little sympathy towards the Palestinians. However, the Israeli's are using your same argument to use force against Hamas. The "they can't be reasoned with", nonesense. In the West when the poly-pricks really wanna scare us into submission they throw in the Chamberlain-Hitler analogy.

Hamas says it wants to destroy the Jewish state. Not a two state solution, so how could Palestine (West Bank) negotiate when part of it (Gaza) is still technically at war with Israel? Egypt had closed its borders on the Gazans as well, why not bring that up??? Its easy to cherry pick facts isn't it? I guess we should also acknowledge that the 'evil Zionists' also have Israeli-Arab citizens, and that many Israelis (and the state) dont support many settlements, (or that Palestinians are often treated by Jewish doctors, and not too long ago Palestinians could actually cross into Israel for work and return in the evening. But those facts aren't gonna help us rally off to war. So good thing you left that part out. Yes your right my man, these evil Zionist can not be reasoned with by any means.

The situation in Gaza is horrible, God willing things will get better. However, when you seek war and you recieve what you asked for, what is there to complain about? I'm aware thats a very mean statement, but is it not true? I truly hope that Palestinians can learn to forgive, and it doesnt take a genius to realize that the recent operations in Gaza probly created ten times more anti-Israelis than it destroyed. Iraq invaded Iran and we lost alot. However, it still bothers me to see Iraqi's suffering, as Im sure many other Iranians do as well. Ofcourse, the situation is much,much different in the Levant but .......

In ending my friend I too am Ajam, but this is a Persian/English website so I prefer to be called Parsi/Persian or if you cant pronounce the "p" Farsi will do. Shookhi :) Take care, and peace to you and yours.

Reality Bites

The borders are closed, no food, no gas, no bimmers are coming in and very few people can leave. The people with the assault rifles and weapons ( power ) might kill you if you talk about "peace" or making friends with the Israelites, even if you imagine living in peace you probably know someone who is still pretty pissed at the cause their loved one was hurt or killed by attacks. So you might rather not even bring it up because when you face the facts, its not exactly a rosy reality.
Yes, in imagination Gaza could become the Hong Kong of the Middle East. Except for the fact they have no access to international shipping. The Israeli's know that Hamas has vowed to fight them, so long story shorter, if they dont monitor the shipping there is no doubt that Hamas will recieve weapons. The people of Gaza chose Hamas so if someone talks about peace they probly wont be leading a majority. However, I agree that violence isn't the answer and always jump at the chance to talk with Palestinians. Hopefully I can persuade them that this war is pointless. ( even if they're far from Palestine )

To Questions:

I f you meant I must be A Palestinian, while not providing an explanation as to what drives you to deduce that I MUST be one, the answer (albeit your statement was not in the form of a question) is no, I'm a Palestinian. I hold an Iranian passport, drivers' license and motorcycle driver license. I was born in Tehran's Pol-e Chubi neighbourhood (between Fuzieh and Pich-e Shemroon). I have an apartment in Tehran, a house in Karaj and a beach house in shomal. I am of Persian, Kurdish and Azari ethnic background and spend nearly half my time in Iran. Should you require additional info in that regard, please do not hesitate to ask!

However, if by Gandhi-like non-violent movement you mean passive resistance, the answer (IMO) is no, it will not work against Zionism. Israel, from its inception (and before, i.e. Irgunists and Stern Gang), has used terrorism and violence to drive the Palestinians out of what is now known as Israel. FYI more than half the population of today's Gaza was forced out of the rest of Palestine into the Gaza strip by Israeli army. The notion of each Palestinians buying a goat and living off of it is not going to work against Israeli expansionism. It did against the British, because British were not after the Indian land, but its natural and human resources. Whereas Israel is after Palestinian land as seen in sprawling settlements in the West Bank!

Ajam, you must be

Ajam, you must be Palestinians. I feel your anguish and pain. Do you think there will ever be a Ghandi-like non-violent movement against Israel? Don't you think the Palestinians will suffer less? Don't you think violence begets violence?

Future

Dear Mrs, firstly, "Pal" is a racial slur used by Zionists, like M.M. below, to denigrate Palestinians. Much like "Hebe" is a slur used by anti-Semites to insult Jews, and "Jap" for Japanese...

In your blog above, much to the delight of Zionists here, you have trivialized the plight of Palestinians by reducing it to a religious squabble. This has more to do with right of sovereignty and less with religion.

What I'm getting at is according to U.N. charters, an occupying force does not have the right to move or settle populations in or out of the occupied territory. Whereas Israel has displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, demolished their houses in order to make space for settlements to which hundreds of thousands of new Jewish settlers are imported into the (WB) occupied territories, linked together and to Israel proper by Jewish-only roads (to which Palestinians are not allowed to enter) and running deep through the Palestinian lands, isolating left over lands as isolated enclaves.

In other words, it is impossible for any future Palestinian land to have sovereignty over these tens of separate pieces of land, let alone to be able to build a military force! In fact the elusive so-called peace process is nothing but a pipe dream. Israel has been playing cat and mouse with the Palestinians, while negotiating at some point in time and bombing them at another, it has kept expanding the settlements non-stop and steadily into the West Bank occupied territories so to nullify the notion of a Palestinian state. Well, of course Israel does not publicly admit to that modus operandi for obvious reasons!