Misc

Dogiush's definition of truth is...

...Whatever Dogiush says. No proof necessary. Just accept it or you are an enemy of Iran, and are partying. Dogiush has the right to accuse anybody without evidence as well.

And Dogiush wants a democratic independent Iran? You are not even ready for elementary school!

Also, Dogiush calls "asking for evidence", "running in circles and dreaming"! Indeed this is not surprising.

It is painful isn't it? In the 21st century, in the land where human rights and tolerance was invented thousands of years ago, this is the mentality which we see among so many people, and in fact is the mentality that is ruling over the country. How backward and pathetic.

Mossadeq, Shah, Amir Kabir, and so many people who actually cared about Iran are too much for Dogiush, no wonder they were so easy to take out by anti Iran forces. Dogiush's rightful place is actually right where he is right now- in the kennel! And it seems he will be there for a long time. Fetch Boy!

Seeing the truth! What?

Dariush: You accuse us of not seeing the truth because we asked for evidence. You might as well claim that the earth is flat, the probability of which is no less than some of your claims. I said many times that I will accept anything that you say, but with evidence. I am here only to see why so many people hate(d) shah, and I am ready to switch sides and become a shah-hater; but I am neither naive, that a mulla from najaf can fool, nor an ideologue who wants to sacrifice his country for his ideology, let it be islam or leftism. I need proof of claims before marching behind anyone and I have prejudice and hatred towards no-one. Accepting fault needs courage, but who is faulting here, us or you who claims that shah stole 50% of trillions of dollars. Do you know that your number is larger than US budget? And if both your claims were correct and shah stolen 50%, or trillions of dollars, with the remaining 50%, or trillions of dollars, iran would have been a super rich country in par with many european countries in prosperity. You really do not see the gigantic flaw in your primary school level arithmetic of what you are saying, do you?

I am very generous towards you. I do not accuse you of lying, but you are totally uninformed. I told you that give me an evidence of what you are saying and I will accept it; or I will give you an eyewitness description of all the good that shah did for my hometown with total transparency, and you accept that. You accepted neither challenge.

Dariush, you are really uninformed. I do not know if you have a hidden ideology that you value more that the country or not, but you are simply filled with hatred, the source of which has nothing to do with pahlavis. You must search for the roots of your hatred somewhere else, as pahlavis with their many short-comings were far better than what misguided revolutionaries brought upon iranians.

If all you have against pahlavis are that they stole 50% of iranian wealth or trillions of dollars, then you just vindicated them beyond what I could possibly do. You never respond to any question about the validity of your claims and get upset because we asked for the evidence and pointed out that your claim is simply an impossibility, an impossibility that a junior high school kid with basic information and basic math skills can easily come to deduce.

Look at the other two sympathizers of your position on this thread who sided with you. One, John Carpenter aka Jamshid Niavarani, resorts to someone having arabic name or egyptian passport to demonize a pahlavi. The other, Mammad the scientist, shifts 30 years of IRI atrocities onto shah to enable him to prove that shah was a brutal dictator as he knows that without such twisting of logic, one need not be a rocket scientist to figure out that we were duped by islamists and leftists and pseudo-intellectuals to sell a decent regime to an atrocious islamic republic. These allegations are simply childish, dishonest, and deceitful with a shrinking market of buyers.

If that is all you guys have against pahlavis, they must have been much better than I thought. And if you demonize likes of me based on the same type of logic and for asking for non-existent evidence then we must be smarter than we thought.

Thank you for making me understand the logic (or lack thereof) and mindset of the people whom khomeini could so easily fool. I was always curious as to why they did not even question what the hell that devil was talking about. Now I know: ideology, gullibility, and lack of respect for truth and existence of evidence.

Jamshid/Unfair/Setiz

I was hopping that you may have started seeing the truth, but it seems like nothing has changed! You heep running in circle and dreaming!!! with your attitute and approach to solving problems, 30 years is nothing, you need at least 1,000,000 years to make any changes!!! You are much worse than what we have now in Iran!!!

Cop Out

Instead of copping out and stating the obvious, maybe you can provide evidence for all the ridiculous claims you have made so far.

If you look at all the posts, none of us ever disputed how great it would be to have what a good democratic and independent government, and nobody needed you telling them to be convinced of that.

The problem is that you and your likes don't mind one bit to sacrifice the truth when seeking this "good, democratic, and independent government". That is how we end up with the IRI (which is exactly the opposite of all of the above). And the IRI will use mistruths like the ones you have shamelessly propagated here to prolong their life as much as possible. But like you said, people are not stupid, and see through this bankrupt ideology for a long time already.

...

So you see, your hatred was built on a paper thin house of cards, and you were afraid of your house of hatred be left with no foundation when the sun shines. But don't worry, a lot of other left-over ideologues from the 70s, who accepted khomeini's lies and deceits without question and followed his eminence hoping that they will have a place in the 13th emam's heart finally woke up to realize that the devil had no heart at all. Disenchanted and depressed, they hang on to their hatred to maybe find another buyer somewhere to help them rule iranians as they see fit. Our resident scientist down below is another example of lots of fluff and no substance that I just hate pahlavis because I was told so and that is why iranians should tolerate IRI until god knows when. But buyers of this blanket hatred are of diminishing size.

Isn't that ironic that whatever pahlavis were, they were far better than what came 30+ years before them as well as what came 30+ years after them. Maybe they were stealing, maybe not, but they never stole so openly as IRI has, from past, from present, and from the future generations as well. Enjoy another $35 billions of next 25 years' wealth of future children of iran going down the drain (or personal bank account of mullas in persian gulf states and east asia) by the most criminal regime in recent iranian history who replaced pahlavis after their staged coup d'etat (aka revolution based on lies, deceit, and criminal exaggerations):

//www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/30/europe/E...

"The 25-year contract, worth between €18 billion and €27 billion (US$28 billion and US$42 billion), is between Swiss energy trading company EGL and the state-owned National Iranian Gas Export Company."

Jamshid/Unfair

Good! That is what all people want! No west or east and no pahlavis, no mullahs. A good democratic government and independent Iran! That is what I have been telling you all along. Finally you are beginning to understand people's point! Was that hard? If these are really what you want you are with people, if not, then you are against them!!!

Lesson in Manhood

And one thing about being a "man", since you think you know what it means, and think so highly of yourself that you brag the following:

"I have the bullet marks from war to prove it and as you see the balls to stand in front of people like you, on line and off line."

Real men (not cowards) who were there don't brag about what they did in war. I don't like to brag to you or anybody about what I suffered, because the real heroes are the ones who are not with us now-they made the ultimate sacrifice. I would rather honor their memory and their sacrifice rather than bragging. Those of us who served honestly know what I am talking about- we did so out of duty and dedication to our country, not to expect something in return and "beh rokheh mellat bekeshim" and use it as an excuse to impose our opinion on people decades later.

I can go on and on for you about fellow Iranians who served and died after begging to be allowed to do so from their jail cells. Or worse, those who served and fought fiercely the Iraqis, only to be later punished and executed by the very "competent mullahs" that Khomeini put in place. And even worse, those who were begging to serve, the country needed them badly (they were fighter pilots), and the IRI would refuse to allow them to serve, making it easier for Saddam to roll in. Once again, putting their ideology over their country. But believe me, you don't want me to go there, you look stupid enough already, I will spare you the further humiliation - unless you continue to ask for it.

Re: Dariush

Dariush, you can't go on playing with your words when you are caught red handed. You said late 70s, mid 70s, the 1970s, the year 1970. You keep shuffling your statements to suit yourself.

There is a big difference between the year 1970 and 1978, as Iran was growing at an exponential rate in those years. If you want to talk numbers, then first make up your mind!

You thing having the "balls" to stand in front of people like me from behind a computer makes you a man? This way of thinking makes you more like a child.

I am afraid to say a word about the US? To hell with the US. All I care is Iran, not the US, not Islam, not velaayate faghih, but only the well being and the happiness of Iranians which your gang has so completely taken away.

Again I say it to you, I don't think you are "man" enough to even stand up to your own words, let alone stand up to people like me, or to bullets in a war.

Oh, and while you are at it..

... perhaps you can find the reference for the other claims you have made that I have listed multiple times, but you were "man enough" to ignore. Or is your time suddenly too valuable again?

Long live the truth. Long live Iran. Be FAIR.

Double Standard

Yes, if you say something wrong it is an "honest mistype". If someone just merely questions the wrong thing you said, they are not paying attention and are partying and they are siding with the enemy.

So apparently, you give yourself the power to accuse people of treason and remove any rights and worth they have as a person, yet allow yourself to make any mistake you want and just call it an oops. Are you running for velayat-e-faghih by any chance?

You claim you are "man enough" to take a bullet and to "stand up" to people on this site. Are you man enough to give value to the truth, and respect others that dare to question your opinion and your sources?

Be FAIR.

Wow!

Dariush: Are you trying to make people laugh at you? Are you trying to discredit yourself? Do you know what you are saying?

You just repeated the same impossibility:

This will give you an idea Just howmany TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS did these invaders/occupiers, pahlavis and darbaris stole from poor Iranians!

Don't you know that there was simply no such trillions of dollars anywhere in iran to be stolen by anyone. Don't you really not see that. Are the rest of your claims as RELIABLE as your past two claims that I pointed out? Don't you see that the more you say, the more you prove the innocence of pahlavis and the position of likes of mine and the other two gentlemen on this thread?

My god, don't you see how these same lies that were fed to us by khomeini brought us here. Don't you have any respect for truth? Don't you have any respect for the poor people of iran to tell them the truth?

The issue here, at least for me, is not about pahlavis. They are dead and will never come back, but it is about the right of people of iran to hear the truth, even about pahlavis. You are doing exactly what IRI is doing, demonizing shah beyond reason to justify themselves in their atrocities against the people of iran at the same time that they scream in the name of "nation of iran". Without an absolute reliable truth, we are bound to remain in the same disaster that we have now been trapped in for the past 30 years.

Opinions don't matter as we may have a variety of them, but there is only one truth -- are you afraid of hearing that, lest it can harm your ideology and change your mindset since you want your hatred to remain unshattered. Are you afraid to realize that there is simply no proof that pahlavis stole any amount anywhere near what you claim them to be stolen, either trillions of dollars or 50% of iranian wealth that you claimed.

Why are you so afraid of accepting that your claims are utterly impossible to be factual? What are you afraid of, the islamic republic or your own mindset?

You are actually of the majority on this site, but nowhere any of proponents of your position have been able to offer a single reliable number that I can find as to how much pahlavis stole. Why is that?

Never mind pahlavis and if they were good or bad. I am really interested in knowing what your motivations are. Are you so misinformed, or are you not so good with numbers, or do you have an ideology that is above everything even the people of iran that you keep sympathizing with the same way that that the 13th emam did so he could send them to fight for islam or the gallows in evin?

Unfair

It was an honest mistype! It was the first month or two of the war!!! I will try to find it and put it on this site!!!

Another example of your arrogance..

..and COMPLETE LACK OF REGARD FOR FACTS:

"It was at the time of his presidency within the first month or two of his presidency. It was on Iran's national TV. I am 100% sure most of the people who were in Iran have seen it. Even those out of Iran who cared just a little have seen it or know about it. But those who lived in a different world like you have not. Because you were busy partying."

Banisadr was sworn in as president January 1980. The war started 8 months later.

Are you still 100% sure? Everybody knew about it?

I was busy partying and living in a different world?

Would you like to keep ridiculing me and others here, or would you like to finally change your ways and pay attention to the facts before you open your big mouth and insert your foot in it? Remember, people are not STUPID.

Be FAIR.

JUSTICE

I ask people after watching this video and reading the comments made, to go to another posting on this site, posted 28-Mar-2008 called: INFLUENCE/BUSY BEHIND THE SCENES
This will give you an idea Just howmany TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS did these invaders/occupiers, pahlavis and darbaris stole from poor Iranians!!! You be the Judge!!!

Your problems are very deep

Let me help you understand the root of your problems using your own words:

"As I said you are not getting the point and are jumping back and fort on numbers"

You see, you just don't value facts. If you did, you would have substantiated the "facts" you just threw out, and this discussion would have been over long ago. Instead you keep forcefully trying to argue your opinion, but without facts you sound weaker and weaker. As you get weaker, you attack and question personally those who challenge you.

In your world, you have your opinion, and the facts are secondary. The reality is the opposite.

Jamshid is right, you really need to change your ways. I hope you can find your way to reality someday, and have respect for people and respect for the truth.

At least you are right on one thing- people are not stupid. So stop treating them like they are. Be FAIR.

Jamshid/Unfair

Yes jamsid, in my first posting I said, mid 1970's to late 1970's and in my second posting I said 1970's. Isn't mid and late 1970's in 1970's? As I said you are not getting the point and are jumping back and fort on numbers and yet you think you are smart.
About I being a man? It is funny this question coming from you. I have the bullet marks from war to prove it and as you see the balls to stand in front of people like you, on line and off line. What about you? That is your trck records which I explained in privious postings and everyone can see you are afraid to say a word againt U.S. who has been behind most of our main problems. Is this not true? Just say yes if you are a man. Show people that you have some of what you claim others don't have! Then you talk about who is a man? Once again you think you are smart and people are not. Keep runnung in circle with your wishfull deams!!!

Dariush the Desperate

Once again, I am not a monarchist or supporter of anybody. I just seek the truth. After how many posts and pages here are you still avoiding standing behind the "facts" you provide?

Do you even realize how pathetic and desperate you sound? Someone questions your facts, you call them siding with Iran's enemy. Or that they are a "supporter" (of what I don't know). Or that they don't know because they were partying.

Well by the same measure you must have been partying on tons of ectasy and heavy stuff. No wonder your brain is mush. Let's say I take your word for Banisadr's speech (given you complete lack of credibility there is no reason to do so, but anyway..). What about all the other points of yours I asked for references, which are grossly false and you continue to avoid, and suddenly your time became "valuable"- the "wild and uncivilized pay", the Hoveida speech, etc. etc.

Furthermore, Banisadr was hand picked by Khomeini himself and was instrumental in bringing the IRI to power in the first place. And if Banisadr made such a stupid statement back then, what about Khomeini's even more stupid statements about continuing the war without a plan, yet promising victory through "emdadhaye gheibi" and "emam-e-zaman" coming to help us? And then 6 years and 1 million wasted lives later, he just decided to "eat poison" and have us forget about the whole thing?

Given all the above and your behavior here, be careful what you wish for yourself:

"For those who are ignorant, selfish and deny the truth and take side with Iran's enemy, I wish Gooz luck and a Gooz year."

It seems you are swimming in an ocean of Gooz already. Enjoy.

In the meantime, don't expect fair people to stand by and tolerate liars like you spread BULLSHIT and then tolerate you personally attacking those who question it. With each post you just show what a desperate and empty idiot you are.

Jamshid/Unfair

About Banisadr's statement. You can find his interviw. It was at the time of his presidency within the first month or two of his presidency. It was on Iran's national TV. I am 100% sure most of the people who were in Iran have seen it. Even those out of Iran who cared just a little have seen it or know about it. But those who lived in a different world like you have not. Because you were busy partying.
As you can see unlike what you think, people are not stupid. That is why after 30 years you supportes are in a few thousands and all of them over 60 years old. In 10 years they all will be gone. May god have mercy on them.
As I said my time is valuable and I can not waste it by running in circle. I let people be the judge.
For those of you that can discuss issues without calling names and don't deny the truth, I wish a Good luck and a Good year.
For those who are ignorant, selfish and deny the truth and take side with Iran's enemy, I wish Gooz luck and a Gooz year.
VICTORY

Re: Dariush

You cannot delete nor edit your post. Go read it again. Here is a quote of what you said:

 "in the mid to late 1970's 65% of the population lived in villages ... if you ... deduct the people who moved from villages to city in early 70,s and 60's .... , that brings the estimates to less/more 70% in villages and 30% in cities."

Now you changed it to 1970? Not even the mid 70s? And now you are setting aside your own "adjustments" and revert to 35% instead of 30%? And you do so cleverly.

Dariush, you are not even man enough to stand up to your own words. You conveniently change your own words to suit your argument. So you are not even honest.

No, there IS a big difference between 30 and 48, the difference is more than 62 percent. Numbers do matter.

I agree with you that many migrated from villages to cities, because life in cities were better. But so what? What's your point? Is your point that people were not living to European standards? Of course they were not. Iran was one of the most backwarded countries of the world in the 1920s. It would take more than 50 years to change that.

WHAT IS YOUR BLUE PRINT TO TAKE IRAN OF 1925, AND CHANGE IT, IN ONLY 50 YEARS, IN A WAY THAT THERE WOULD BE NO POORS LIVING IN ANY VILLAGES? WHAT IS YOUR BLUE PRINT? HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE IRAN WAS IN THE 1920s?

Where is your blue print?

You ask, " What did you all did? Did you tryed to stop Saddam? No, some of you even become his fifth army..."

This is such a blind and ignorant statement hat I will not bother commenting nor getting offended by it. Did you even know what my service record was during the war, before making such statement?

You must change your ways. You entire belief system is based on hatred, obssession, "oghdeh", inferiority complex, fanatism, ignornance, lack of integrity, lies, and fabrications of facts. The net result of this has been the exploitation of the masses, destruction of lives, oppression of people, and creation of abject misery for all.

Shooting in the dark

Yo Dariush. Wake up. I am not Setiz.

You on the other hand are completely lost and shooting in the dark:

"but you only condemn this goverment and deny any of that in shah's goverment and you claim being fair."

When did I deny any of that in the Shah's government? You are totally confused, I am not defending Pahlavis, I am asking that you back up your false statements, or else stop LYING and feeding BULLSHIT to people. Your answer is just to state more lies- this time about me. You claim that "we people" were spies and helped the enemy and are traitors, without any proof whatsoever. To that I say go F**K YOURSELF. This is not the IRI and you are not Khalkhali (if it were I would give you the same answer 10 times more).

Now that 3 people are answering you, you cannot handle it, so you start making up even more BULLSHIT- that two of us are the same person.

Stop being a MORON. Be FAIR.

Another of your absurdities...

...
"After revolution khomaini put Iranians who were educated coming from west in power from president to ministers. What happened? Some turned out to be spy an traitors and some like banisadr when the war started instead of sending troops to the border, said it is ok let the Iraqis come in we give them land to get time and this made it much worse and harder to push the Iraqis back, which resulted in more casulties. Another mistake! That is perhaps why Khomaini lost trust in Iranians with tie and suit and started putting mullahs in power. Because he could take a chance. Otherwise we wouldn't have all these mullahs or extreemists in goverment! "

Give an exact reference for when Banisadr said it is ok to let the Iraqis come in. And explain why no mullah with a turban should be equally blamed for Iran's lack of defense on September 22 1980.

I am glad Khomeini saw the suits and ties as untrustable, because the mullahs he put instead were soooo much better (NOT) Furthermore, it was 3 guys with suits and ties that made it possible for him to have a revolution in the first place! And is a person's clothes really that much an indicator of their competence and trustworthiness? What about Shariatmadari, Montazeri, and all the other people with turbans that Khomeini destroyed?

What kind of idiots do you take the readers of this site to be?

"My time is vey valuable."

Yet you seem to have no shortage of time to just make BULLSHIT up and throw it at people. Seems like whenever you are asked to actually back your statements up, time suddenly becomes scarce.

Rambling easier than truth

Blah blah blah blah.

You still fail to back up your facts:

1-ONE contract anywhere that says "unicivilized" or "wild" allowance
2-interview with Hoveida saying people should be happy because now they have bread and pepsi
3-1% of Iranians benefitted under the Shah
4-wealth distribution was 50% Shah and 50% the rest.

Indeed this is a silly debate AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE GALL TO EXPECT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE YOUR BULLSHIT WITHOUT PROOF.

And you talk about "trying to show us truth"???"

And as you ramble on about the war, you accuse people of helping the enemy and advocating the destruction of Iran. Who the hell are you, and what gives you the right to do that? How do you know what "we people" (whatever the hell that means) sacrificed to defend our country? What did Rafsanjani and Khomeini do to defend our country? They sent empty handed young boys to get slaughtered by brand new Russian and French and Chinese weapons provided to Saddam, while they sat in their north Tehran residences protected by anti aircraft guns. And then they went on and made huge deals for their own gain with those very Russians and French and Chinese.

And you claim we "won the war"? Which planet were you on in 1988? Do you know how many Iranian prisoners Iraq took in 1988, and how easily it entered and exited Iranian territory for that purpose? The only ones who won this war were eastern and western weapons companies, oil companies, and countryless mullahs who were sitting on a bankrupt defeated country, but happy that their opposition was eliminated. Is that your idea of "saving Iran"??

I don't really care about your opinion, you have proven what a worthless person you are, and how little regard you have for truth. If you want to convince others that your opinion is right, the best way is to teach them something they don't already know. And the best way to do that is to provide logical arguments based on facts which can be proven, not BULLSHIT.

So stop feeding people BULLSHIT, and stop accusing others of aiding Saddam while defending traitors who took our country down a path of utter destruction, defeat, and humiliation.

Setiz/Unfair

I agree to all the crimes commited toward political prisoners and some minorities by khalkhali and others. Noone can deny that. Perhaps if the moderate Iranians who were put in charge in the biginning of revolution had done their job right and had not been spy or else as I said, there would't be any mullahs like khalkhalis in power to commit all those crimes and after that, if khomaini had been more sensitive and caring to the life of all peoples rather than 100% Islam, we would have much lesser crimes commited and very better country. I have always been against having any political prisoners whether in this goverment or shah's goverment. I think most people are against that. At least I condemn both goverment for that, but you only condemn this goverment and deny any of that in shah's goverment and you claim being fair.
I know was you who changed name from setiz to fair to continue the debates. You see, again you all think you are very amart. You thought if you pretend you are neutral under diferent name, you can fool me. But unlike you I don't judge the book from the cover. I pay attention to the content and detail. As I said, we are circling and we need to leave the judgment to people.
You asked me, Who do you think you are? Well, I am one of the sheeps. My name is Justice for people!
God Bless Iran.

Jamshid/Unfair

Thanks for finding these charts. I compared what I said with these charts.
I said in 1970's we had Urban population of 35% and Rural population of 65% the UN chart as well as Iran's report shows about 41.9% Urban and 58.1% Rural
So I was off by 6.9%
I said in the 60's Urban population would be 30% and Rural 70% The chart shows: 34.1% Urban and 65.9% Rural
I was off by 4.1%
Now if you go back another dacade that reduces the Urban population and increases the Rural population. At least I gave some numbers and I was off by aproximatly 5% which shows my numbers are not far off. But you are claiming that most people had a good life is by far off. That was the whole point. These numbers and the fact that people were not having a good life is a testimony to the immigration of more people from rurals to urbans in hope for a better life. However you diagree and consider their poor lifestyle as "good diet" and the lavish lifestyle of shah and darbar as "just" and when I say I wouldn't trade asingle hair of my people to 1000 pahlavis and alike, you ask why 1000 not 10,000 or a million? Even though the numbers are very much in my favor than your's who had no numbers, that is not the point. The point is what I had explained in many different angles to make you see the truth about pahlavis. I am not saying this goverment is good or perfect or shah did not do any good at all. But what you are saying is that shah was perfect and this goverment is 100% evil and that the west who is the cause of our main problems are good. The good you see in west is for west not for Iran. The reason you get to enjoy it because you are on their side! If you want me to write these in some other language for you to understand just say so! This is becoming a silly debate. It is not our say! people are smarter than you and me! Again, if they were not, your numbers would be in millions not a few thousands left overs, but you all have so much air in your head that you don't accept it, I can not immagine how you were when shah had the power.
Yes, the continuation of the war was wrong in my opinion today. we should have taken the offer. Rafsanjoni did insist in continuing the war reasoning/guessing that saddam doesn't want peace, just wants to reorganize himself and khomaini and others accepted. Right or wrong we won the war and saddam and his allies learned a good lesson. It is important to supply the troops and keep trac of situation and casulties! Bit it is important to concentrate to winning the war. Who in a war bases the end of the war on number of casulties? If that was the reason to stop fighting, Hitler would rule the world now! On the contrary, What did you all did? Did you tryed to stop Saddam? No, some of you even become his fifth army. Did you try stop his allies? No You encourage them to hurry up and destroy Irans army so you can get to rule again regardless of howmany Iranian are killed. At least if khomaini got Iranians killed was to save Iran. Even now you wanted Iran to be attacked and destroyed, but since even the liberals in Iran whom you count on are against any bombing, you have changed position, not to avoid loosing their possible support.
After revolution khomaini put Iranians who were educated coming from west in power from president to ministers. What happened? Some turned out to be spy an traitors and some like banisadr when the war started instead of sending troops to the border, said it is ok let the Iraqis come in we give them land to get time and this made it much worse and harder to push the Iraqis back, which resulted in more casulties. Another mistake! That is perhaps why Khomaini lost trust in Iranians with tie and suit and started putting mullahs in power. Because he could take a chance. Otherwise we wouldn't have all these mullahs or extreemists in goverment! This is another side to the story.
Since you don't even accept the very basic truth to the fact regarding the west, shah, and etc. we keep circling and I don't see any reason for more debatse. My time is vey valuable. I leave the judgment to people. God Bless Iran.

Well...

Dariush: You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts. As a wise man once said:

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." (J. Adams)

This is the problem that I had with Mr. Mammad, where his only proof was his scientist-ness, and he went to great length not to prove short-comings of pahlavis, but to demonize them with childish claims of RP getting his degree because his dead deposed daddy paid USC a million dollars decades earlier, or that achievements of IRI has been “fantastic” compared to pahlavis. That type of discussion maybe sellable amidst the emotions of the revolution but is of diminishing value as we realize what that kind of attitude did to us.

Aren't you curious to know if your hatred of pahlavis is based on any quantitative data and/or comparative evaluation of them, or if your facts are based on your blanket hatred of pahlavis?

Aren't you curious to know what led us to where we are, where instead of politically super-active individuals who wanted to grab power from shah ending up in evin, we came to accept our girls to be sent to prison and maybe raped there only because they showed few threads of hair.

Your said: "...splitting the wealth of a nation 50/50 50% shah, 50% 40,000,000 people...".

Aren't you curious how outrageous what you just said, my western educated compatriot, is? 50% of iranian wealth translates into more than $50 billions in 1978 dollars, which translates into more than $150 billions in 2008 dollar [Reference: Patterson]. Don't you see that this claim makes shah multiple times richer than the richest person in the world anytime from 70's to today, assuming that he did not invest that money and could not manage it to grow beyond the inflation rate? Don't you want to know how there is no trace of those 150 billion dollars nowhere to be seen, while the top one hundred richest people in the world are listed every year in Fortune magazine, sometimes with as little money as a few hundred million dollars, with shah or his family never appearing once in the list, while piles and piles of arab rulers and princes show up on the list continuously?

You said "Shah created a corrupt goverment and robbed people and created a lifstyle for himself that people become sheeps and goats for him."

I will gladly accept that if you give me any proof. But if you do not have any proof, well I do. I was an eyewitness of how my humble city changed in a period of 10 years prior to revolution with major development projects that can be easily traced and I will be glad to detail them for you if you wish, something that anyone from my city can attest to. So, where all those money came from if shah was such a thief. I wish you go and see his "castles" in iran. They are indeed castles of historical importance, and you will see that contrary to the widespread claims of revolutionaries, for a king, those three major "castles" (Gloestan, Marmar, Saad Abaad) were not out of ordinary at all and were dominantly built starting is past generations.

You certainly are entitled to hate shah as much as you wish, but you cannot construct facts based on that hatred. We have seen people on this site even cursing Cyrus the great as a tyrant, the same way that khomeini and khalkhali did 30 years ago, while Xenophon praised him as exemplary, when he bowed to god of Babylon or when he dressed like Elamites. Do you want to behave like khalkhali or khomeini when he shrewdly lied multiple times? And isn’t it fanny that likes of Cyrus, the tyrant as was called by revolutionaries of the 70s, had more respect for individuals of his time than the pseudo-elected regime who is ruling iran today, 2500 years later, the regime that does not even consider Iranians intelligent enough to decide on how they themselves should dress.

I will gladly accept that shah was a super-thief, unusually corrupt, and a brutal dictator, but if it is based on solid evidence rather than emotions. Emotions, lies, deceits, and personal vendetta have harmed us a great deal for the past 30 years. Maybe we can agree on this at least.

Reza Pahlavi is a complete idiot

All those women were forced to vote?

Reza you are an idiot with an egyptian passport.

I wouldn't trust Reza, the green card holding, egyptian citizen.

He does not even hold Iranian citizenship.

Reza is a loser with an arab name.

There are a lot of women in Iran that are full time house wives. Were they also forced to vote? Highly unlikely.

Reza, you are a loser.

Reza, your 15 minutes of fame were over as of Junuary 1979.

Reza stop talking. People already know you are an idiot.

Reza, you can't speak english properly and your farsi is even worse.

Re: Dariush

Dariush,

You are providing yet again more false information. 

You are claiming that based on some "census", in the late 70s, 30% of Iran's population lived in cities. You are false. The correct number is 48% in 1978:

//iussp2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=51663   (See page 9)

//globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?country=IR&indicatorid=30

In 1958, the urban population was approximately 32%. In 1978, it was 48%. That means that we had an increase of 16% which is equivalent to a 50% growth rate in 20 years. (Here is the math: 16/32 X 100 = 50) 

Now let's compare this to the IRI era. In 1998, the urban population was approximately 62%. Compared to 1978, we had and increase of 14%, which is equivalent to a growth rate of only 29% in 20 years. (14/48 X 100 = 29)

Therefore, the growth rate of urbanization decreased during the IRI era by 42% (29/50 X 100 = 42), and this was despite the war with Iraq which send millions of "aavaareye jangi" to the cities, thereby artificially increasing the urban population. So the real rate of growth was even less than 29%.

So Dariush, what happened? What did the IRI do wrong to slow the rate of growth of urbanization, compared to the previous regime?

You are taking facts that are against the IRI, spice them up with a just enough amount of false numbers that won't alert anyone, then repackage them, and voila, it is now in favor of the IRI.

You play with facts, as your likes did during the revolution. They exagerated or minimized the facts, whichever was more convenient, against the regime in 1978. We were foolish enough to believe and act on that belief. We paid the price. Now here you want to use the same method of utilizing false numbers combined with false analysis to make the IRI look better.

It won't work. This is not 1978, it is 2008. You need more sophisticated methods of deception than the same old methods of the past.

I suggest you ask yourself why is it that the IRI (and you) so much depend on the use of lies and of "fabrication" of facts all of the time? Why can't you depend solely on the truth?

Answer: Your urge to cling to your ideological attachments is stronger than your urge for the truth. Therefore, along your way, you fabricate facts and conveniently lie to yourself first, then once you are used to doing that, you start passing on these lies to others, and so the cycle of misery continues.

Re: amirkabear4u

I am aware of the facts about that war. The eight year war with Iraq was started by Saddam. However, in 1982 both sides had realized that neither the West nor the Soviets would allow either side to win this war. In 1982, Saddam offered peace and to pay war reparation to Iran. Many in the then young IRI wanted to accept the peace. However the faction that today represents Rafsanjani, and khomeini himself wanted to continue the war against the advise of others.

This helped them consolidate their power in Iran.

That is why the last seven years of the war was imposed on Iranians by khomeini.

Those last seven years of war was a statement of the foolishness of khomeini. He was told by many of his advisors again and again that the only beneficiary of continuing the war would be the West and the Soviets, the only loosers would be Iran and Iraq. This is documented.

But Khomeini was a stuborn man, and his ideology did not place any value on human lives. To him it wouldn't matter if it would cost 10 million lives or more, as long as his ideology goes forward...

The majority of Iranian (and Iraqi) casulties were in the last seven years of the war when the human wave method began being used against Iraq. Khomeini should have accepted Saddam's offer of peace and reparations, instead of enriching the weapon merchants at the cost of Iranian lives.

The last seven years of the war was khomeini-imposed, period.

Stop changing the subject

All that Jamshid has done is question your statements. Instead of rambling, provide proof for your claims (other than the revolution itself):

1-ONE contract anywhere that says "unicivilized" or "wild" allowance
2-interview with Hoveida saying people should be happy because now they have bread and pepsi
3-1% of Iranians benefitted under the Shah
4-wealth distribution was 50% Shah and 50% the rest.

and all your other (until proven otherwise) BULLSHIT. If you are just going to throw stuff out there and expect to be taken seriously, you need to back it up.

Furthermore, you show how desperate you are when you allege:

"That is why you are so disconnected with people. "
"I get my information from the census and you get yours from darbar"

And who the hell are you to make such statements? What do you know about me or Jamshid or anybody and where we lived and what contact we had with the people? And based on what do you claim that Jamshid gets his information from darbar??

YOU are the one who put forward your criticism and statements, it is only fair that you back them up. I have taken up no position for or against any government, the only position I have taken is against ANYBODY who misinforms people, whether it be YOU or any GOVERNMENT.

So if you want to be taken seriously, Stop feeding people BULLSHIT, be credible, and be FAIR.

jamssid/Unfair

I don't disagree with all the bad things that has happened since the revolution. You will have that in any revolution. But who caused that? For the most parts west due to loss of their interest. What did the monarchies did? As usual they ranaway took side with the enemy. "In you view friends" in hope of coming back after their nation is crushed. Then you call this fair. were there people who were executed unfairly? Yes Should that have happened? No That happens in every revolution. If I say chili or cuba you say that doesn't count. what about your idle, good old friend U.S.? Hundreds of thousands were killed because blacks who wanted to bee free from dictatorship and wanted freedom, better life, as Iranian were. Now you say that was different. It was race. What about what is going on today all over the world. Doesn't palestine have a democratically elected president? Is this not exactly the same situation as it was during Mossadeg/fatemi and shah? The problem is if others are dictator it is not right, but if you are dictator that is ok!
You say I critisize Tagziehyeh rayegan. What do you mean rayegan? It was people's! It belonged to people! They deserved a lot more than what they got!!! It didn't belong to any shah and it doesn't belong to any sumreme leader!!! I never said shah didn't do any good! I said he did some good, but his bads were way more than his goods! You should read more carefully! If you call splitting the wealth of a nation 50/50 50% shah, 50% 40,000,000 people, then I am not wondering why you think the way you do. Then you call me names? Monachies have the mentality that they are a neck and a head above other Iranians. This is clearly expressed in shah's interview where he called Iranian uneducated and that Iranians don't know what is good for them! That is why you are so disconnected with people. Shah created a corrupt goverment and robbed people and created a lifstyle for himself that people become sheeps and goats for him. And when someone disagreed with him, they were killed and tortured. Infact there was so much fear in public that it reduced the number of oppositions and shah thought every body is in his favor untill it exploded in his face. I called you Reza koochooloo and I am being told not to say that! What is wrong with that? Is this the promise of freedom monarchis/none monarchies are giving to people? If you really are fair, critisize all the injustice you see no matter where and who instead of as always thinking about your own selfish interests and don't think that Iranians are blind and don't see it! You have the words wrong you are not fair, you are fear!

The numbers? I get my numbers from Iran's censes. The numbers you get is from where?Darba reports! That is why you were so off from reality! Iran census reported that in the mid to late 1970's 65% of the population lived in villages and 35% in cities. Now, if you go a few more years back, deduct the people who moved from villages to city in early 70,s and 60's the same people who as you agreed came to cities so that they can eat their dry bread with milk rather than pepsi as you put it, that brings the estimates to less/more 70% in villages and 30% in cities, As I said. Information on line doesn't shows the population separated city to village. If you find it as you claim it to have been, just put it on line so everyone can see it!

I see you are cofused about whether I am a communist or Islamic or nationalist or what? If you can not tell after all these back and forts, it shows that you are not as intelligent as you think you are!!! Perhaps you should realize academic education doesn't automatically qualifies one to become a leader! In addition to education a leader must be intelligent, just, nationalist, humaneterian and etc not corrupt, selfish, dictator. But I give you a clue, I don't change a single hair of those who fought the war to save Iran and those who fight to free Iran without taking side with Iran's enemies, to a million of pahlavis and alike!!!
Did you get it now? Rez Topol!