Misc

Why is this guy talking

Why is this guy talking about democracy? If you of democracy you could use its American version in order to get what you want. Just like our Jewish brothers.

Just a word to Jamshid

My friend since you are expressing yourself all over this site please get your facts right. The war you mentioned started by Iraq and NOT by Iran. I also agree you are not the only one and it seems anyone who dislike IRI has to blame this war to Iranians. No matter how much you and me dislike these dark mullahs, for the sake of fairness, we can not change the truth. Democracy has to start somewhere.

Sad but true...

Once again Jamshid, I could not have put it better myself. Wonderfully said, the story of our state today..

One can only hope from here on.

Re: Fair

Yes, it took us a lot to be enlightened.

It took a revolution that led Iran to 30 years of misery, and to a worthless khomeini-imposed war that lasted eight years, plus one million dead and crippled, it took tens of thousands of executions, the destruction of Iranian entity in favor of islamic entity, abject poverty, hopelessness, a nation of drug addicts and prostitutes, a broken pride, an Orwellian dictatorship, the looting of Iran's riches, the complete and total misery for all.

But wait, I am not done. It may take us to a war against the US, or decades of sanctions creating conditions that would be worst than sanctions against Iraq/Saddam. So it may take us to famine, hunger, desease and much worst.

Then after all these miseries, you still find people who are still left in ignorance. It is as though you want to wake someone up by shaking him, but it won't work, then you pour water on him, it still doesn't work, then you give him an electric shock, and he still doesn't want to wake up. Eventually, you'll give up and realize that you'd have to deal with it in some other ways.

Re: Dariush

Please answer the following questions:

1. Are you a communist?

2. If not, are you in general opposed to being rich?

3. if not, do you believe that all rich people are automatically thieves?

So now you are criticizing "tahzieh raayegaan" in the previous regime? You have just proven that you are biased and thoughtless. You are a creature of hatred. Even if that man did something good for his country, you have to claim it was bad.

To you the previous regime was 100% wrong. In your hate filled and brainwashed mind, there cannot be even one thing that he did right. You even criticize "taghzieh raayegaan".

You say, "his father was a dictator and he took the power agains the will of a nation."

And what was the "will" of the nation in those times? Of course if you substitute "nation" with either the word "akhoond" or "ghajari", then you are right, otherwise, you are false.

You say that there were more intelligent people during reza the first than reza himself. But you failed to name a few of them AND to say why they were more intelligent. In the abscense of this information, your claim is degraded to the level of ranting (no offense intended.)

You also keep repeating that the pahlavis robbed the people. Again we can either be in agreement or disagreement depending on what is meant with the word "people".

If it is meant, "akhoond", "ghajari", "pre-60s feudal land owners", then I am in total agreement with you. The pahlavis did rob them. Good for them.

However, if by "people" you mean the masses, the average Iranian, then provide evidence as to when and how did the pahlavis robbed the people. Remember we are excluding akhoond, ghajaris and feudal land owners from the word "people". If you fail to answer this question, I am afraid your claims are again degraded to the level of ranting and nothing more.

You say, "You keep bringing numbers from your secret no one seen file"

What secret? You can google a few key words and you'll get tons of links confirming my numbers. Go ahead, try. There is nothing wrong with basing your opinion on some basic research instead of uncontrolable urge for hatred.

As far as Ahamdinejad and his embargo on dollar, as long as it does not cause damage to Iran's economy and to the ordinary people, more power to him and his Euro oil bourse.

Lastly, you claim that I am Reza Pahlavi using the name Jamshid. Need I make any comments on this claim?

Ken Lay vs. Shah

And yet another misleading argument you give- you compare the Shah of Iran to Ken Lay of Enron. Ken Lay made Enron bankrupt by cooking the books, and lied to its shareholders. Iran had billions of dollars in reserves , the world's fastest growing economies, the world's 5th strongest military, and lowest unemployment rates in 1979 when your so called revolution called for a change of "CEO". Where is the comparison again?

Stop misleading people. Be FAIR.

Your difficulty continues I see....

No Dariush, you call me unfair because you do not like to be questioned.

All Jamshid has done is challenge your sources, and you fail to provide them. You are the one putting forward these "numbers" like 1%, and quotes from Hoveyda, etc. etc. Therefore it is up to you to stand behind your statements.

In that sense, Jamshid indeed says what I like to hear: QUESTIONING. If there was a little more of this in 1979, we wouldn't had that farce of a revolution, the madness that you expect us to accept as PROOF of your ALLEGATIONS because it is too inconvenient for you to provide proof. Instead we might have got meaningful change. Imagine if Bakhtiar had actually got a chance to reconcile the country at that critical moment- and establish the democracy that your mentality is still incompatible with- for example:

Stop labeling people monarchist or Reza Koochooloo because they don't blindly accept your allegations. I am not a monarchist and have said don't think Reza is the right leader for Iran (just my opinion). You are getting more and more pathetic and desperate by resorting to these tactics.

Painful, isn't it?

Take a look in the mirror. Be FAIR.

TO UNFAIR

What do you mean jamshid put it so well? Just because he says what you like to hear doesn't makes it right. What is the matter with you? and then you call youself fair? you seem to have the same wishfull dreams! Thanks anyway.

jamshid

jamshid, I got my number from information I have read and heard on papers and news and they very much matches with my experience and what I have seen. Same way you have! You just admitted to my dry bread and pepsi example and replace that with dry bread or small package of milk they used to give to students at school. They are the same. I think every Iranian should have same equal rights in respect to wealth in our country as a base. But then those who contribute more make a little more. Not one to be literally starving and another one having number of castles. Why because his father was a dictator and he took the power agains the will of a nation. A nation that had much better and responsible and inteligent people than reza shah and mohammad ever were. who would serve people without robbing them and expecting what they didn't deserve. As you think shah deserved. I agree with you about having a CEO who benefits his company and benefit himself is better than one hat does the opposite. But I disagree with you that being the case with shah. You keep bringing numbers from your secret no one seen file, but I am giving you a simple proof, REVOLUTION. If your numbers were correct there wouldn't be any revolution!!!
On the case of Ahmainejad and west. He may be the names you call him, but we can't deny that his embargo on Dollar seems to be working much better that all the embargoes on Iran and the way he is uniting the region is interesting.

I must tell you, I love the way you so strongly defend the pahlavis. If pahlavis had a few of you then, fighting the invaders and enemies of Iran instead of their own we wouldn't have any of these problems today. You take my comments so personal some times that makes me think you may be Reza Koochooloo. Can I just call you by your real name? or should I keep saying jamshid? Yes or no it doesn't matter.
At least now I know more about where some of Monarchis stand. Thanks for sharing your views.

Jamshid put it so well

I was going to respond to Dariush, but I cannot put it better than you did Jamshid. You are truly enlightened, the hard way, through experience. It is this type of reasoning by Iranians like you today that give me hope we will never make the same mistake we did in 1979, and perhaps a bright future awaits us.

Only when we take a hard look in the mirror do we have a chance at advancing ourselves.

Thank you.

Dariush

What 1%? Where did you get this number? Why not 10% or 15% or 3%? Where did you get this number?

These numbers are what I call "propaganda" numbers.

Yes, the shah and his entourage lived a good life. noosheh jooneshoon, because contrary to your claims they did a lot of good to Iran.

I look at the net results. I don't care if the CEO of the company I work for is a womanizer or loves jewelery. All I care is whether that CEO is causing the company's employees to prosper and have job security. I much prefer that CEO, to another CEO who sleeps on a "ziloo" but has no knowledge of how to run a business, thereby causing the company to go bankrupt.

I think you on the other hand, care more about the CEO's personal attributes. For you, it seems that what the CEO does for the company, the net results, are irrelevant or at best secondary.

I feel that you mean well. That you are a good guy and you want the best for people. However, I think you are badly misguided and that your beliefs are dominated by misinformation and false propaganda. Shake yourself free and think clearly. I suggest you study the ways of "haamiaaneh hagh" for how one should think on these matters. It'll help you.

Re: Dariush

Your quote about Hoveyda is false. He never quoted such a thing. I can always as easily invent quotes for you or for khomeini.

You start with a false quote, build on it, and then make conclusions. Where is your evidence that hoveyda said such a thing?

You say that back then 70% were living in villages and eating only bread. You are false again. Villagers had a very good diet in the 70s. I visited "villages" in my childhood years with my family, and I envied their diet which was much more delicious than ours.

By the way, have you forgotten "taghzieye raayegaan"? Whatever happened to it?

You are saying that whatever the IRI is, "we are not willing to change it to what it was before by listening to advisors such as pahlavi"

Who is "we"? If "we" means the akhoonds, basij and bonyaads, then I agree with you. You are not willing to go back. This is not surprising.

However, the above group does not represent Iran. If there were only two choices, IRI or pahlavi, the majority of Iranians, Kurd, Azari, Fars, Arab, etc, will choose to go back to pahlavis. Just walk the streets of tehran and ask average Iranians this hypothetical question. By the way, they would choose pahlavi, not because they "love" pahlavi, but because of practical economical sense.

You say, "Shah wouldn't drink a glass of water before getting permission from U.S."

You are false again. The false image of a "nokar" that you want to create for shah is just false propaganda with no evidence to support it. The Shah protected Iran's interests far more than the IRI is today.

The pahlavis fought to modernize Iran, to better the lives of Iranians. However, there were always people like those in the IRI to stop them.

Ahmadinejad is a true "nokar". Nokar of khamenei who in turn is a true sellout nokar of Russia and China.

You are stucked with this ideology of confrontation based on an obssession. You think that confrontation with the bully is the only way. As long as we are confronting the bully all is well, even if it is costing the quality of our lives, even if it is costing our riches, even if it is costing us to be miserable. As long as we are saying "nafas kesh", all is well.

I disagree. Confrontation with a bully is the way of "jaahels" and fools. There are better ways. Just look at what South Koreans, Spaniards, Japanese, taiwanese, and many other countries have done for their people without confronting the bully.

The IRI's ideology is old, tired and passe. These guys should step aside and allow smart and knowledgable people to run the country. They cannot take 70 million people hostage forever.

jamshid

I missed one question you had. Relativity of corrupt in comparison to what and who? Not to any country as you named them! The way the 1% were living in Iran to the way most people were living. All the castles and mansions in Iran and all over the world, from the millions of dollars jewlery they wore to much,much much more. However you deny the way most people lived and you say shah and the 1% deserved to live like that, it was their salary. And I said he deserved to get the same salary of the CEO of ENRON, since he did to Iran ,what Robert Lay did to ENRON. They both did very much the same thing some good and a whole a lot of bad.
All these are in the past and gone, but when Reza come and start preeching, he cause it to come back and bite him! It is not hate. It is justice.
Thanks again

jamshid

Just because the gajar was worse, that doesn't make pahlavi good! One day an adviser told Howayda, people are complainibg about their economy. Howayda said what else do they want? They used to eat dry bread now they eat their bread with pepsi. Back then more than 70% were living in villages and eating dry bread "literally". That is why as you said, they were coming to cities and making halabi abaad and moft abaads so that thay can eat their dry bread with pepsi, like the other 20% who served in the army or else where. The other 10% business men and individuals depending on how close they were to darbar, they got a piece of pie. But 1% on the top from darbar to other top officials enjoyed the lavish lifestyle by doing what they did, in your view serving the nation. We can not deny the facts. I am not saying there is no corruption today in this government. I am saying just because this goverment is not doing what they should do, whether as a result of corruption, war, sanctions, extremisim or whatever we are not willing to change it to what it was before by listening to advisors such as pahlavi with such a messy history! The question, As not being nokar to the west? Shah wouldn't drink a glass of water before getting permission from U.S. As for military? we didn't need to stock so much because the masters would take care of their nokars who are protecting their interests! and we would pay for the planes and etc, but wouldn't stock them in Iran. That is how we lost billions of dollars to U.S. There is a difference between a fair mutually beneficial relation than becoming nokar! Please don't tell me pahlavi become nokar to prevent Iran from war! Iran has allways been in wars. What pahlavis did, rather than fighting invaders they fought their own for the reasons I told before. That is just like now, if Iran's goverment rather than taking the hard way, they take the easy way out and do as the west say and become their nokar, we will not have pressure, but we must do as they say which is let them ride on us. I am sure this is the route Reza would take. But Ahmadinejad despite his true but untimely statement about zionists (unless he knows something we don't) rather than becoming nokar is uniting the region. Surrendering is not always the best solution! If we fear every time they snap their fingers, we will always be their nokar! If it makes you feel good to belive that Ahmadinejad's strength is from the few factories shah built in Iran, good at least you are happy too. That is all I want, all to be happy. If you think that is not strength, it is stupidity and he gets results, then what does that make those who call him stupid. I am not in any form or shape trying to chane your belive. I just like to get to know different views and if I see it makes sense and true, I change or improve mine. Sincerely.

Re: Dariush #3, hopefully the last one if I can resist!

You also said, "Who got the most beneft from these investments shah spent? West , Him and those 1% around him."

You are false again. The only benefit the Shah got was not much different than the same perks the president of the US is getting, perhaps even less, except he was getting them for life.

The 1% around him did benefit from the Shah, however, your figure is wrong. It was more about 10%. Just remember that the military alone numbered half a million, add their family members, add the none-military around him as well, and you'll get the figure.

But that leave us with the remaining 70% and 20%. The 70% were the masses. They benefited termendously under the Pahlavis. Just think where Iran was in the 1940s and where it was in the 1970s. The quality of life improved. Ask yourself, with the rate of progress we had under the shah, where would be today with the pahlavis?

That leaves us with the last 20%: The clergy, the bazaaris, the communists, the remains of ghajars, and the pre-white revolution land owners. They did NOT benefit from the shah's regime. And they were and still are the ones with the loudest voice demonizing the shah.

You ask, were we independent any at all (under the pahlavis)? You can't ask this question unless you define "independence. If you think beating your chest and "gholdori" against the US is independence, think again. Iran is more dependent on Russia and China today, than the previous regime was dependent on the US.

IRI is signing one way 20 years term contracts that are beneficial to these countries, but not to Iran. If independence is to sellout Iran's riches to Russia and China at the expense of the quality of Iranians' lives, while beating your chest against the US and saying "nafas kesh", then you don't know what independence is. You are looking at the surface and not at the net results for your people.

The next question you asked: "Do we have freedom and better life? Yes, no, maybe..."

The answer is a solid NO. We don't have a better life. Iran is making more revenue from oil than ever, but relative to revenues, poverty is at its highest. We even lost our social and religious freedoms. And we have become a totally dependent and foreign exploited (estesmaar) country.

Next you said, "don't sit in the west or take side with our long time enemies and tell me do this or that..."

Why Dariush! I didn't tell you to do anything! YOU are the one who is telling me what to do!

Re: Dariush #2

Since you could not argue with my numbers on IRI's military expenditure exceeding that of the entire Pahalvis reign, you said this:

"As how much they spend on millitary, it depends how much they have in stock. So after this war and running low on many types of weponary and treat of more war this goverment must invest more"

This is your answer as to why the IRI had to spend more in 30 years than the Pahlavis did in 55 years. But the fact is that in the late 60s, Iran's military stock was even more empty than IRI's in 1988 DESPITE of the iraq war.

Dariush, you are turning stones to cling onto some sort of a reason to justify the IRI and to demonize the previous regime. This does not hurt me nor the previous regime nor the IRI nor anyone else. It only hurts YOU by keeping your own self in the darkness of bias and hatred.

Then to further justify IRI's military expenditure you say, "Specially that they are trying to manufacture most of them in Iran..."

Do you even realize what you are doing to yourself by not thinking clearly? Domestic manufacturing of military equipment only reduces military expenditure, it does not increase it.

You tell me that the men who fought in the iran-iraq war were patriots. You then ask me if would have been better if we lost the war?

Aren't you twisting things here? Let me un-twist it you for you: Of course it wouldn't have been better to lose the war. However, it would have been better to avoid the war in the first place by having good foreign policies and relations with the rest of the world, instead of talks of exporting the Islamic revolution.

It would have been better for those patriots to be alive today as well. Do you disagree?

Why didn't we have a war with Saddam during the shah's period?

Re: Dariush

Unfortunately, this discussion won't change neither your opinion nor mine. Your opinion is highly emotionally charged and it is based on many false information that was fed to us in the 70s.

You are not reading my post. I said that they were not calling us uncivilized. This misinformation is what was fed to us. It is not real. The reality is that the entire world, western, eastern, all over, respected Iranian citizens. With that old red passport, you could go anywhere you wanted and you knew you would be treated well.

Compare this to today.

Justice? Giving away the country? What do you mean? Define these words. I love my country and its independence if not more than you, equal to you.

These are just loaded words. They can be used easily against anyone. We have to look at facts and results, not emotionally charged words.

Your next sentence about the previous regime is a full depiction of the fact that your thoughts and opinion are based on hatred and hatred alone:

"It was our weak, selfish, corrupt Goverment who out of fear and greed took the easyer way out of taking side with invaders rather than democratic movements in Iran to secure a lavish lifestyle for themselves."

What corruption? Corruption compared to what? To IRI? To Ghajars? To the US senate? To Japan? To Mexico? To whom?

All governments are corrupt in one way or another. So we have to look at corruption in a relative way and ask ourselves corrupt relative to what?

Can you answer this question? If you can't, then your opinion has no basis.

"take a lavish life style"??? Think for a moment. In 1953 when the Shah became took full control, there was no pressure whatsoever on him to educate the masses. He even gained the anger of some members of the clergy by launching a modern education for its people. In 1978, more than 11 million of 12 million school age children were sitting in classrooms.

Why the hell did he do that for, if he was selfish and wanted to have a "lavish" life style? Answer the question. All facts point to the opposite of your opinion.

it is difficult, isn't it?

I can tell it is very difficult for you when you are finally forced to give credit where it is due and you don't like to. If Shah made a strong military, you say it was to be expected of him. Nice. Maybe instead of continuing your frustration by rambling, you could back up your other false statements:

"We were dependent up to our head! weapons that they were giving us for 1000 times the price of the oil they were steeling from us."

Once again, which weapon did they sell us above correct market price, and which oil did they buy below world market price? And if we were so dependent, how is it that those weapons have been operating until today, 30 years later, with NO foreign technicians? And furthermore, what weapon does Iran manufacture today that it could not have before 1979?

And most of all, When did foreigners get paid in the name of us being "wild and uncivilized"?? This is the bullshit you heard in the propaganda in farsi- haghe-tavahosh. I challenge you to find me just ONE reference to this in English or any western language by any US government or corporate document? Where does it say "wild an uncivilized" allowance in any contract or agreement? The term that would be used is expatriate and in difficult assignments would be hardship pay.

Just ONE.

Or would you just like to feed us more lies and expect us to listen to your rant?

Be FAIR.

jamshid

I didn't say why they were paid more for their knowledge! I said they were paid for calling us wild and uncivilized! Were we any of that? This has nothing to do with emotions. It has to do with justice. Please don't make excuses for giving away the country! Oh it was Russia. Oh it was British. They exist today as well! It was our weak, selfish, corrupt Goverment who out of fear and greed took the easyer way out of taking side with invaders rather than democratic movements in Iran to secure a lavish lifestyle for themselves. As how much they spend on millitary, it depends how much they have in stock. So after this war and running low on many types of weponary and treat of more war this goverment must invest more, Specially that they are trying to manufacture most of them in Iran. I don't disagree with you that many millitary officers did fight the war this will take me back to where I said, I must admit the people who fought the battle for the most part were the faithfull Moslems and the true nationalists. The men you refer to, mostly were true nationalists. They may have not liked the goverment, but they fought for their country!!! Would we have been in a better situation if we had lost the battle? I am not going to repeat myself, but if shah did some good did with people's money, if he hadn't done any of these then what the hell had he done all those years? Ofcource we would be in a worse shape when war started, but would we have won this battle if it wasn't for the people who fought, who were mostly Islamists you call fanatic baseegees as you called the army nationalists, traders? No Who got the most beneft from these investments shah spent? West , Him and those 1% around him! Was there war? No was that good? yes were we independent any at all? No Where the majority happy? Obviously not. What did they want? Independence, freedom, better life. Does it come free? Obviously not. Are we willing to accept pressure and possible war to have them Or should be dependent and have a little peace untill they don't need us any more? It was up to majority. Can we have peace and independence at the same time? It would be perfect Will the west allow that? Look at the history. So, what should we choose? Majority said independent, freedom, better life. Has it come true? Indipendent, yes. Do we have freedom and better life? Yes,No,Maybe Should we go back to where we were after what we have been through? No What about the problems we have? we should work on it to fix them. How? Make propositions, but don't sit in the west or take side with our long time enemies and tell me do this or that!!! and tell me let us depend on the west or east!!!

About the oil: when I say stealing, I mean literally. You say shah sold in World maket price? I say, west created negative competition among the oil producing countries by using Iran with the help of shah by bringing mossadegh down and paid whatever price they wanted for the oil. Just as what they are doing now with Iraq. They (U.S.A and Europe)are trying to pump all their oil from IRAQ to crush OPEC. If they succeed. We are all history!!!

I just gave you my opinion about some of what the majority feel about X Government based on what they have seen. You gave me your information about how X Goverment saw it. we let people make up their mind. I am sure they are many smarter people in Iran than me and you and Reza. They have lived and see the progress in both goverments and they can decide for themseves. If in fact they had seen it your way there wouldn't be a revolution and your supportes would not be in such a low numbers after 30 years.

Let me tell you another thing! one day you will see that you body Reza despite all his preechings is a partner with Rafsanjanis childeren in the developments and investments in Iran and Kish Iland and else where. I can smell the rat from miles away!!! Peace

Overpaid employees and indepedence

I could not resist to comment on two things:

(1) Working for foreign employers is a hot commodity in today's iran since they pay you much higher salaries based on the weighted standards of their home country. That is exactly how it was during shah's regime. A relative of mine working for a european subsidiary is earning better than 3000 dollars with only a bachelors degree. Recently his company had to move to dubai due to the recent sanctions and difficult working environment in iran. The company offered him his job in dubai with the same salary. So the overpaid issue is really over-exaggerated since that is how it worked then and that is how it works today, for iranian or for non-iranian.

(2) The way I see it, Iran is far less independent today that it was prior 1979 if we resort to spirit of independence rather than its literal meaning. Iran is bribing almost any country with unprecedented quarter-century gas and oil deals among other things to buy support from them that they never deliver. Bribings include any country from india, china, indonesia, russia, switzerland, and on and on, to arab countries and Mediterraneans. What kind of independence is to put the wealth of the country on fire sale for a lousy support in UNSC which is almost never delivered.

Independence is when the decisions of the government is FOR the people irrespective of the wheeling and dealing that is needed anyway in this day and age. Independence is not to beat your chest for this arab and that arab to satisfy the arab street at the cost of endangering the poor helpless people of iran which have no dog in arab fight one way or the other as they long for their bread-winer to maybe able to place food on their table.

Be Fair Dariush

When you say the military was dependent and they overcharged us for it, be careful.

Everyone first needs to first realize one thing- Iran was at the front lines of the cold war, even more so than Germany and Korea. There was no option of being non-aligned after WWII- you HAD to be either close allies of the US or of the USSR. So if we could all momentarily lift ourselves out of our obsession with just Iran and look at the bigger picture it would be helpful.

Now that being said, to become an independent power, we first needed to obtain technology and infrastructure. And that my friend, we did, and thanks to the Shah (I am not a monarchist and have no agenda here, just talking facts). Anyone who disagrees needs to carefully explain how 30 years after the revolution, Iranians are still operating weapons that were so advanced in the 1970's that in some cases even NATO members and Israel did not have. And how after tens of thousands of Americans left Iran, those they trained that were not purged and executed were able to fight and defend against Saddam for 8 years- with American weapons.

I also challenge you to find one weapon that the USA sold us that was overpriced, as in more than what the US/NATO would have paid for it. Also you must be specific about "stealing" oil. Oil is determined by international markets, and the government of Iran through the NIOC was exporting to that market. Where and how was the west "stealing" our oil?

Today we have in Iran Iran Aircraft Industries, Iran Helicopter Industries, Iran Electronic Industries, you name it, and they were all built under the Shah by the "overpaid" foreigners that you claim. Well guess what- if you are American and you go work in Taiwan or China or the UK, you get paid expatriate salaries, and you are overpaid by those countries standards. That is the price a country pays to advance. It is called INVESTMENT. And it is thanks to this investment by Shah that Khuzestan is still part of Iran. This investment gave Iran technical know how about 70's era technology, something the mullahs take credit for today when they refurbish a jet fighter or helicopter, repaint it, and say they built a new jet fighter or helicopter.

Furthermore, RP is on record for being strongly against any military action on Iran, and instead supporting democracy movements. So those of you who claim otherwise are spreading lies.

To me, RP has no blood on his hands, and is not corrupt, and has every much right as you, me, or any other Iranian to express his opinion about the best course for his country. As far as whether he should lead anything, that is up to the people of Iran. We first have to get to a point where the people of Iran could express their opinions and vote freely. Otherwise we are just making up statistics.

I for one do not look at him as a leader for Iran, but rather a good advocate for Iran on the international stage, and wouldn't mind seeing him play such a role in any future secular democratic Iran (good luck.)

Re: Darisuh

You are false in every count. Just because something benefits X, it does not mean it MUST be against the interests of Y.

It happend that BOTH Iran's and the West's interest were protected by a stong military in Iran in the 70s. There is nothing wrong with that. However, in your mind, if anything is beneficial to the West, then it must automatically be against Iran's interest. This is the kind of brainwashing that made a fool out of me in 1978.

There is nothing wrong with two countries having the same interests.

We were not slaves either. That's how I used to think during the revolution. In exchange for the many concessions that were made to the US, we were getting a lot in return.  For example, Iran was building 7 nuclear plants with the most modern technology, instead of 40 years old Russian technology. We were also getting trained in every aspect of this technology. More importantly, there was no fuss about Iran becoming nuclear. The western countries were even competing against each other to get a contract.

Compare this to today.

You criticize the previous regime about the price of weapons. Let's do a small analysis. Under the entire 37 years reign of the Shah, Iran spent 20 billion dollars for military, most of in in the 70s. Adjusted for inflation, this would be about 70 billion in 2007 dollars.

The IRI has spent more than 150 billion dollars on military in its 30 years existence (with almost 100 billion after the war). Adjusted for inflation, this becomes a total of 240 billion in 2007 dollars.

The IRI has spent on military more than three times the previous regime did. Despite of that, we ended up with more than a million dead and crippled because of a useless war with Iraq, not to mention the war homeless and others who were affected by the war.

They say one ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. The shah's regime protected Iran from wars, or even prospect of wars, precisely by spending the monies that you criticize him for having spent. That plus sensible foreign politics. I think 20 billion dollar is worthed if it saves the lives of a million Iranian.

But that is not the point. The point is that the IRI has spent more on military than the previous regime even after the war, and still Iran is under threat of war.

IRI supporters would immediately jump in and say that the Iraq war was imposed by Iraq. That the US war, if it happens, it is imposed by the US.

False again. These are safsateh. If the IRI had committed to responsible foreign policies from its inception, just like the previoius regime did, there would be no war with Iraq. Same thing applies today with a possible war against the US.

So to answer you, no I was not proud of the previous regime's actions 30 years ago when I was brainwashed. Today I AM proud of their accomplishments. Howerver, it is too little, too late.

Next, you said that western employees were paid extra for staying in Iran. Isn't the same true with the Russian technicians in Iran today? Would it not be true in the future with any country that has technology and is giving that technology to us? I say as long as Iran is getting something out of it, "noosheh jooneshoon", pay them extra.

Additionally, in those days nobody was saying that Iranians are not civilized. That is quite the contrary. Iranians were respeced everywhere in the world. Not so today.

You also made references to the West's crimes, to which I totally agree. They are irrelevant however. Iranians, Arabs, Turks, Japanese, Germans, British, Romans, they all had, and will commit crimes in order to maintain their dominance. This cannot be used in an argument to justify the commission of crimes by others.

I also agree that there had been places such as halabi abaad in Iran. Those were mostly villagers who abandoned their homes in order to come to cities to make more money. ANY country that is progressing from being a total complete nothing, into an advanced society will have to deal with issues like this for many decades. You have to be realistic. For example, I do not fault the IRI for the overcrowdedness of Tehran. It would have happened no matter who was in charge. Same goes with the halabi abaads. You can not use these against a regime, be it monarchy or IRI.

And finally we can agree that you and I indeed live in different worlds. Yours is a world of bias, strong emotions and repetition of the past. Mine is a world of unbias analysis and avoiding making the same mistakes.

Truth

Jamshid, You made a statement about how strong our military was. I didn't want to write this , but I had too, since I had heard this from farah too. You know that power was given to us to protect west's interest, don't you? If we were protected from Russia, it wasn't because we looked good or west is humaniterian. They were the master we were the slaves! We were dependent up to our head! weapons that they were giving us for 1000 times the price of the oil they were steeling from us. Are you really proud of that? Didn't it bother you seeing they paid their employees extra for staying in Iran, because they said Iranians are not civilized? The mullahs were not in power, so you can't blame it on them and Islam. You live in west now and you know what a criminals are themseves and you know what they have done in the past in their own country(from Indian Americans to slave trade and hangings of blacks) and everywhere else today. I bet you fear your life in America more than in Iran, if you go out at knight today! Why were we uncivilized? For justice koorosh and dariush had that the west copied from us, for sadi,hafez,molana,roomi,and many others. If I ask about halabi abaad, moft abaad, yaft abaad and etc you wouldn't even know where they were. Right? As I said, you lived in a different world.
Sincerely

Mammad

Your logic is very weak and you simply do not see that. It does not matter if you really believe that the earth is flat or not, either way others won't buy into it until you, the claimant, the scientist, give a reasonable proof for it.

I did not argue to your issues point-by-point because they mostly are opinions, not raised to the level of arguing for or against. I might even agree with some of your opinions, but neither yours nor mine has any particular value unless and until we find solid justification for them.

For example, you keep repeating that shah was a brutal dictator. What is this brutality that only you, and likes of you, see it. If killing some 300+ people, mostly in armed conflict on the streets, during his entire reign is brutal, then fine I accept that. But "brutal" is a much loaded word, and if you used in that fashion, then what was khomeini who killed the same number of people in a single day in evin.

You are a prisoner of your strong beliefs. So are a lot of other people on this site. But isn't it ironic that of all those who make such claims, none is able to produce anything objective except for resorting to insult and vulgarity.

You again mention mosaddeq. I respect him, but he is a decorated black box. We do not know what we would have found inside the box had we opened it. Maybe he was perfect, or maybe he was an earlier version of khomeini. We simply do not know, specially that there has been no new mosaddeq in the last 30 years to even barely stand up to the brutality of the islamic republic.

With the passing of time, the people inside iran become emotionally more and more detached from the hatred for the pahlavis, and as a result your argument becomes less and less convincing. I respect your views as opinions, but that is what they are, opinions, not facts.

Setiz: Education and experience

Setiz:

Most of the things that you say about corrupt leaders may be true. But, you forget one point:

We had a great, uncorrupted, democratic leader in Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was overthrown by the CIA-MI6, so that the Shah can go back to power. And what did he do after he was put back in power? He created a political system far worse than what existed during 1320-1332, and made it increasingly brutal.

As for Reza Pahlavi:

We (you and I) have obviously two different sets of standars when it comes to qualifications of a potential or actual leader.

The two things that matter to me most are, (a) education, and (b) political and work experience and savy.

Education can be obtained through two channels: (i) formal education, and (ii) practical education by working through the political process, being in touch with the everyday political developments, etc. Reza Pahlavi has none of it. He has practically no formal education; by virtue of being outside the country his entire adult life, he has no practical education as well, and by virtue of never working even one day of his life, living off the wealth that his father left him, he is utterly unqualified.

You think that living in Maryland, and having some phone conversations with this or that count as experience? Be my guest. But, do not expect me to believe in it.

You accuse me of repeating the same. First of all, it is you who does that. Despite asking you to just reply to my comments point by point, directly, without making generic comments, you just repeat the same things. Secondly, I believe in what I say. Therefore, there is no reason to quit believing in them, unless I am convinced that I am wrong, and those who know me well know that I have done that too many times. But, what you say are generalities and generic. They do not discuss the main points. Therefore, they do not rise to the level of convincing arguments.

Jamshid/Setiz

Jamshid, You did not answer any of my questions. Why do you ask for the truth? when you can't handle the truth. At least setiz has some class to open a dialogue with. To answer your question, Yes I am a millionaire now, thanks to my intelligence,talent,persistence and honesty. Unlike you and Reza, when I left Iran I left with 500 Marks. But my point was that you are way off. The way you lived and saw Iran as you described was not how people lived and saw Iran. That is what caused the revolution. That is all!!! If I was to guess from your attitute, I say you must have worked for Darbar and Savak. Am I correct?
I have Iranian best friends from Islamic to mojahed to communist to nationalist and in many religions and even atheists. we discuss many issues, but we still are friends. For us humanity comes before moses, jesus, mohammad or any others such as your God pahlavi.
But still I wish you well. Happy New Year

Dear Setiz,
I will think about the things you wrote. I will try to find the documents, I admire the fact that you ask for proof to find ones guilt. But we all know we are not talking about average joe. And he sure isn't a saint. However, you don't accept the internet and newspaper reports and you know you and I will never have access to the origenal of such documents. Since as you said, his chance is zero. Let us move on. As long as I don't see him preeching justice I am happy.

Happy New Year

Mammad...

You are repeating the same style of logic that you used before. So let me see if I can take another shot at it.

You are the claimant in this argument, and you are the scientist. So as a scientist you should have already researched the rational behind your claims and have all the "real" facts under the tip of your fingers. I am the defendant and cannot accept your argument without a convincing proof. Please go back and read your own comment to see if you buy that line of logic, accusations without proof, used on you yourself. You criticize TV channels (that I do not watch at all) of disagreeing with you. Have you thought that maybe your logic is weak.

Most of us (I for sure) have no dog in this race. We never benefited directly from pahlavi regime, nor bribed any of them. Only that we saw the only country that we had go from livable to livable no more. That is why we are hanging to the memories of the late shah as someone who brought us some level of prosperity, only to shine once we realized what nasty characters we had amongst us, the nasty characters that he was trying to control. In the hindsight, I would not have cared if he dealt more harshly with any, YES ANY, of the current IRI leaders. They simply ruined my country.

You keep throwing loaded words of corruption and dictator. Well a large majority of politicians are corrupt and dictatorial one way or the other everywhere. Maybe a layman can buy into your accusations, but I won't until I see a quantitative evidence and comparative analysis of that. You are the scientist, so you should have had all this information to back your claims. Saying that shah was corrupt simply does not cut it -- I bet the ruling class of the country that you are living in today are by far more corrupt unless and until you, the claimant, can provide some evidence beyond hearsay that someone got a cut of something here and there. That is how the game of power and wealth plays everywhere, and therefore it is only a matter of degree and how many people have been impacted that matters. I wish we could have a perfect ruler, but there has never been and there probably never be such a ruler in the foreseeable future. Those who always stick to mosaddegh really have a weak argument, since as respectable as he maybe, he is a man with no record, similar to what khomeini was pre-1979. Maybe he had to be a dictator with the leftists around him or lose the country to the nasty people that he had gathered around himself to defeat the shah. We never know.

As for referring to your arguments being childish. Some of them really are. Please read your own comment on RP and see how you reject him. There are other issues that RP has, like being controversial, like maybe not being so popular in iran, maybe he cannot be trusted, maybe being ineffective, and so on and so forth. But you mention none of those and bash him as uneducated as if emam khomeini had ten doctoral degrees in nuclear physics from harvard when all those educated university students, islamists, leftists, and intellectuals, lined up behind him, saluted him, and helped him destroy our country. None raised a voice on why he was guillotining so many in a rush job in the first few day of the revolution. None remembered that "kheshte avval chon nehad memar kaj; ta sorayya mirevad divar kaj." So you see, big intelligent people make big mistakes. The intellectuals and the educated ruined my country; without their support a stupid exile mulla from najaf could not have done as much damage to the country on a steady pace.

Same goes for the issue psychology. Lots of us iranians are culturally very arrogant and see ourselves more capable than what we are. We criticize everyone and everything. We need to change this and view matters more pragmatically and logically. Fine if you criticize the shah, he definitely deserves criticism in some areas. But until you equally and fairly evaluate him, your views will go down the history as gossip, driven by congenital hatred, rather than a source of information.

Re: Mammad

I couldn't resist making a comment about another thing you wrote.

Quote: " How can I not have learned from people's experience during the IRI, when my brother and three first cousins, all between 19 and 24, were executed over just a few months?"

Your brother and THREE cousins were executed by the IRI, and yet you defend the IRI with every opportunity you find?

As far as learning goes, it seems that it is quite the contrary. That you have learnt NOTHING from people's experience during the IRI. Either that, or you are a frist class "bi gheyrat" for defending the IRI despite IRI having executed your family members.

P.S.  I know you will say, "Oh but I am not defending the IRI, I am only defending the "reformists". Yeah right. As though that makes any difference. How many were executed during the king of reformists, Khatami's era? Do you even know?

Re: Dariush

Spare me your sermon on "oh I was poor" and "we were struggling", and other loaded BS you posted. I too was in Iran and saw with my own eyes how the poorest lived in those days, including in the villages.

Your sermon about spliting a butter bar is the most bullshit, unimaginitive lie that I have heard in decades, literally, in decades.

So what about today? Are you still splitting butter bars? Or are you one of those who made it rich overnight thanks to the revolution?  

Mammad

Driush: You change the subject to something that I would not argue with you: the right of iranians for self-determination.

As for RP assets; we should learn from history, the history who brought us to streets to blindly follow the 13th emam, the sign of god, the man of islam whose religion was enshrined in our culture with proverbs like "liers are enemies of god", and so on and so forth. Yet this "man of god" ended up being the biggest lier and the biggest criminal of the modern day history of iran. Nothing more than lies and deceits have harmed us more in past 30 years. So let's stop it anyway we can.

Someone on this very thread down below is asking RP to surrender "hundreds of billions of dollars that his father stole from iran." Am I supposed to accept his claim even though a simple calculus of numbers reveals how outrageous this is.

I am not saying that you intentionally lie, but each of us are prisoners of our biases, and believe what we want to believe much easier than what may be closer to truth. Once again, anything in the order of billions is just a lot of money to have no clear trace of. I suggest that you try to trace how much each saudi prince has to see how easy it is to find out, not only how much each has, but where it is invested. Take Prince Al-Waleed or Prince Bandar; their names are clearly listed in the annual reports of the companies that they have invested in, there is no vagueness about it. Why is it that there is not clear trace of what shah stole, at least to my knowledge, for anytime in the past 30 years; specially now that they all live safely in the west. Should we just depend on hearsay or internet gossip columns, no matter how crude they maybe.

You are the claimant of his thievery. You should at least see where the source of your information is, who the accusers are, and what their claims are based on. Throwing numbers in the air is very easy, backing them up with evidence is difficult.