Misc

Ms. Rusta, Mr. Benross & Ms. Mehraban,

Your brilliance and fluency in expression is admirable. I have gone over your exchanges and while enjoying every bit of your posts, find myself torn up between all the valid points that each of you make.  Ms. Rusta, without hesitation I identified myself with your position. I have the same reservation about the movement’s unity and without any reference to Mr. Mousavi’s past allegiances, I honestly don’t know his current platform (other than opposition to some of cuurent regime’s policies). I believe this is not sufficient to pull our nation out of the hole it is in now. What I struggle with is how are we (outside Iran) able to educate and mobilize a nation behind the concept of a secular government. 

I can appreciate Benross’s point but, my reluctance in endorsing Moussavi without understanding his current platform, stems from bitter experiences of the past. Uniting for only the sake of opposition could be more disastrous. Then, here I am, lost in understanding how we can keep the movement alive while bringing them aboard the secular democracy boat.

 How can anyone convince a pasdar or basiji that the nation will be better off and the religion will have a better meaning under a secular democracy?. We all agree that any change must initiate and be carried out from within (with or without our help or anyone elses). Then how do you do it? How do you educate the masses? I am not sure if immediate removal of IRI is the answer.      

Curtains down

 The Pahlavis must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth.

The fake monarchists who are assigned to support Reza Pahlavi Mirpanj are a group of foreign agents. 

Thank you Benross

I will do my best.

Thanks for taking time and your patience with me. 

FR

If you say this (green

If you say this (green movement) is not about Mousavi, then why do you still get excited about his self-arranged interviews and analyze what he said or what he did so excitedly as if he is the only hope

Actually I didn't look at the video until shortly before the comment I made. So you can't say I was really 'excited'! if I sounded excited, it's because it wasn't as bad as I expected!

My point is that this is what is going on over there. What is going on over here? this is where you can use all your knowledge of past revolution and its aftermath, and above all, your freedom, to bring about a true political force for secular democracy. Do it. 

as the voice of the

as the voice of the Iranian secular diaspora?  Not a rhetorical question

History sees it differently, I am afarid

Thrity one years ago, the buzzword was Freedom. we didn't care much for democarcy, secularity or even human rights as we do these days. Every Iranian was clamoring for freedom and guess what, Khoemini was promising freedom too! He was not talking about democracy, secularity or human rights - just freedom! From the extreme left (Marxist Fedaeiyan) to the extreme right (Pan Iranists) were all united in a social movement, demanding freedom.Believe me, all of them were speaking far more convincingly than our disparate opposition of these days, about the need for a unity - in theory, if not in practice. Like today, these groups never (at least publicly) questioned the fundamental conflict that existed between Khomeini's version of freedom and, for instance, the extrme left's notion of the same. Only after the fall of the Shah did these groups seriously address their fundamental differences with what was going to be the ruling regime. It was already too late.

If you say this (green movement) is not about Mousavi, then why do you still get excited about his self-arranged interviews and analyze what he said or what he did so excitedly as if he is the only hope. Why don't we transform the green movement into a collecive leadership movement? Palestinian did it - it was called the PLO. 

FR

Do you really see RP

as the voice of the Iranian secular diaspora?  Not a rhetorical question. 

I know he tries to separate

I know he tries to separate himself from it but can he really.

I'd say should he really? I fully understand those who don't want monarchy. The plan is to leave it to people to decide. But those who ferociously attack Reza Pahlavi are not part of our secular movement to begin with. I have no doubt about it.

Well put

Opposing Mousavi is counter productive.   The iranians in the diaspora could be the voice of the secular desires of Iranians inside iran.  These voices have no chance of being heard in Iran, from Iran.

I honestly think that RP is not the right person for this purpose, I have nothing against his person as I do not have anything against any one person.  It is my belief however, that even though he is a nice guy, he seems to lack the political acumen required to be the voice of the diaspora, in addition, monarchism seems to touch a divisive cord that has not been overcome in thirty years I know he tries to separate himself from it but can he really.  

For changing a regime that

For changing a regime that before anything else, before any other priority, geared itself with its own preservation and that is from its conception, and any other decision making it did was relative to this primary goal, either we get out of the political arena and start complaining about 'rooz o roozegar', or we choose to have a proactive role in what will lead to the end of IRI.

I didn't ask you to change your mind about Moosavi. I know I will not. What I'm suggesting is that in order for us to have a proactive role in this social movement, our target should not be Moosavi. I don't think for a second, that we are facing a 'nicer and gentler Islamic regime' in this movement. Even Moosavi may have hoped for it, but I don't think he really believes it's now feasible. So no, I'm not asking you to 'unite' with Moosavi. Just do your own thing and don't look at him as an adversary. He is not. Not now anyway.

We have to mind the new generation. The past is the past. And yes, this past includes 30 years of failure for Iranians political activities outside of Iran. But this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a real social movement in which, us, as Iranians abroad can take part and provide our distinctive capability to the movement. Secularism can not even be spelled out without being considered subversive inside Iran. But we can spell it out and unite around it. This is the unity I'm talking about and I'm sure it will find its echo in this social movement inside Iran. Don't ask Moosavi to spell out secularism. Make your own move.

Kharmagas khan.

Two people can differ in their opinions, nothing wrong with that. As long as they respect eachother's right to think different.

Farah Rusta

Huh?! Where did Reza Pahlavi come from all of the sudden? Is it about another post of me on some other topic? For you information, I am a big admirer of the Pahlavi dynasty,
especially of Reza shah. But in my opinion Reza Pahlavi II misses
somhow what made his dad and grand dad great. Tha's all I think about
him. He is however in my opinion on his way to be a more mature
politician and I like that about him.

Let's not get carried away here on teh issue of Mousavi. Mousavi is one of the leaders of this movement wether you like it or not. Even Reza Pahlavi has a green wrist band these days. And there is something else you failed to notice and thta is the freat unity that is among Iranians these days, wether abroad or inside Iran. At least on this single issue, that we are people with different beliefs and that the only way to coexist is to respect the diversity of our opinions. That is called democracy and that is what the majority of Iranians want.

Unity outside Iran? and after thirty years?

There is an age old tendency among us Iranians to theorize as opposed to pragmatize. This is a very comfortable position to be in. After all this practice has given us some of the best and beautiful poetries in the world. 

I am sorry that my words may sound so politically incorrect. But I say it regardless. I am not a believer in the Iranian unity. It has never been in our grain and the only time that miraclously we became united it brought us the most diasterous of outcomes - the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Now thirty years after the onset of this calamity and with the so called Iranian Diaspora well established in their positions in all four corners of the world hence no need to go back - you are suggesting a unity (no doubt of its digital type) to bring about the much needed change inside Iran?

The only person who is trying to bring together such disparate entities as Melliyoun, Mazhabiyoun, Leftists and Monarchists is being rediculed and rejected as a stooge of the Foreign Forces. So who do you have in mind to spearhead this unity. Who is your General De Gaul? or should I ask who is your Aytollah Khomeini?

I repeat the question that I asked on a different blog. WHo do you suggest as the leader of this imaginary alternative?   

FR

Benross, I hear you on Mousavi

The content of his presentations before the elections "outside the required tributes to Imam" were quite secular his issues were secular and his discourse was much more Iranian and not -if I may- "Ommatist".

He has also said that he is not the leader of the movement but is lead by its stamina.   In my opinion, making the discourse of change about opposing Mousavi is a mistake.   I also agree that due to the freedom afforded to the Iranians in diaspora, we could spell out a structure that may work in Iran.  "IF" it is Mousavi that will bring this ball home so be it.   Well, a long topic but this as a start.........

PS,  I know there is tremendous and well founded resentment towards Mousavi and alike because of the murders of the 1980s and their general association with IR.   

Farah

Moosavi is describing a social movement, as is. And he is placing himself within this movement, as an individual. I like his take. I guess we should not focus on him (being himself uncomfortable with his pictures being everywhere) and focus on ourselves as Iranians abroad, and the political content that we can provide for this social movement which they, inside Iran, clearly can't.

The resistance to our efforts abroad for providing a political alternative will then clear the camp of those who are part of this social movement with those who are against. Our goal is not to 'parachute' a solution to inside Iran. Our goal is to be part of this movement, with the clear distinction that we have the freedom and we are using it. It is for Iranians inside to see what part of our efforts is useful for them. We do not relinquish our freedom to accommodate those who don't have it. This defies the whole purpose of this social movement.

shngol o mangol

shangol o mangol, (Payam & Kourosh)  if you guys can not settle your differences ..... vAi be hAle rest of us!

You keep avoiding the question? What are you afraid of?

What have Mousavi, Khatami and Karoubi DONE to prove that they are for SECULAR democracy?

Talk is cheap.

Your double standards are best demonstrated when you are prepared to turn a blind eye on all the corruption and  violation of human rights that this trio, were involved in or had presided over and in the least kept a sheepish silence about them, but you are still holding Reza Pahlavi accountable for the wrong doings of his father - when he was not even legally chargeable, physically responsible or morally accountable.

This is why all your arguments collapse so miserably.

FR

KouroshS,

Azizom, I understand where you come from. Baba, we should take baby steps, one at the time, toward democracy for Iran. The democracy train is on the move and Mousavi, Khatami and Karroubi, are the drivers. I believe that returning to the constitution established 30 yeras ago and actually never fully utilized, will be a step forward and will usher the way for more changes. And that is what frightens khamenei and AN and their backers, sepah included.

Trust me, the era of despot monarchs and saddam like dictators is over and even if Mousavi turns to be are next president, he will be in charge within a framework and will not have absolout power like khamenei. This meansthat he simply gets impeached oncehe screws up. But actually I don't see him to turn that way. He seems to be politically mature, unlike back in the day when he was as radical as AN.

Khar jan,

Actually emam ( lanatollah aleyh) died more than 20 years ago.

Farah Rusta

Thank you for the history lesson. I was actually aiming at the Iranians discontent for past 30 years and not how Mousavi kissed hands ( and asses) back in the day.

I feel that this discussion is going nowhere since I am talking about A and your talking about Z, I think that we both agree on core issue's and disagree on the mere details. Unfortunately discussing here seems to be endless sometimes and I feel we are heading that way.

So to summerize; Mousavi is the best we got right now. Once we have democracy and free elections, I am sure more suitable cndidates will come forward.

خر جان

باور کنید قصد جسارت به شما و یا به ملت شریف ایران را ندارم ولی فرمایشات شما بی‌ اختیار مرا به یاد شعر معروف هادی خرسندی می‌‌اندازد که مطلعش بود:مملکت دست مشتی خائن غارتگر است، بس که این ملت خر است. به عبارتی شما نماینده حقیقی‌ ملت ایران هستید که البته باعث مباهات است. ولی‌ در جواب کامنت شما اجازه دهید پرسشی کنم: شما فقط یک نمونه از اعمال آقای موسوی را نشان دهید که نشان دهد وی از گذشته تیره و تار خویش با تمام روابط و ضوابط آن‌ جدا شده است. نه با حرف بلکه با عمل.

FR

 Kharmagas Well. I was

 Kharmagas

Well. I was going to say You, but i guess you did not put your name in the hat did you?:)

Payam:

Mrs. Rusta

The 13th Imam is dead and he has been dead over 10 years now. What we are confronting today in Iran is Sepah, Seyed Ali and Mahmud AN and not a dead man, these 3 elements are very much alive and killing and imprisoning our people, a far worse evil.

As far as Mousavi having a past, its true, we all have pasts but the important thing is where we are today. I can tell you with outmost certainty that the people who make Mousavi’s past a factor on how to judge him today would have done much worse if they were in power in Iran those days even today, from far left to far right. People grow and change even Mousavi. It seems to me the only people who are exception to this natural rule are the most of the "opposition groups" outside Iran.

One of our problems abroad is that we paint everyone in Iran with a same color to suit our political needs. Mousavi is highly regarded by the people of Iran especially because of his past and the way he managed Iran during the war. As you know IRI is not one person or one entity during the last 30 years there were many other personalities who committed far worst to Iran and Iranians.

Today Mousavi, Karubi and Khatami are the only personalities in Iran who can bring out millions of people on to the streets if you and I like it or not. They are confronting this monster and so far they have not backed down. So let's not blind ourselves to the real facts on the ground in Iran and make the past an divisive issue, than, we all be considered guilty. 

Freedom and Democracy for Iran! 

موسوی و دستبوسی امام

I have been on planet earth, but where were you Payam?

Let me help you explaining yourself better. Here is what you are saying: 

We must close our eyes (mentally) and imagine that Mir Hossein Mousavi is the best on offer since the sliced bread. Never mind his past allegiances, never mind his present alliances, and never mind his future(empty) assurances.

In the mean time let me jog your memory by reminding you how committed Mr Mousavi was to his Emam (he intiates the procession)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rEdAj5uFbw

FR

Kourosh, who is your alternative?

Kourosh, who is your alternative? Just name a person. RP2, Ahura, ...., KouroshS, ...

KouroshS, power definitly corrups people.

And Mousavi is no exeption. What you should realize is that the days that people looked for a srong leader to lead us all the way, are over. People in Iran are starting to understand the concept of democracy and that everyone can be the leader of the country as it's elected president. No one should and will be above the constitution. Not even Mousavi, even if decides to become Khomeini the second.

Understand that for now, due to lack of a better choice, he is the appointed leader of the movement. He has very good idea's and I do not expect him to change into a power hungry lunatic, but in case he does people will just stop supporting him and he will fall. That's how democracy works.

The Iranian people

appear to know what they're doing this time (as opposed to 1979).  They're backing Mousavi as an agent of change, more like Gorbachev than, let's say, another Khomeini.  They believe that if such a person takes over, he can put just enough pressure on the system for it to break, or, in the alternative, himself bring about the small changes that will lead to a transformation to a secular system.  is it going to work?  Who knows.  But at this time, I think this is the strategy.

Wishing to uphold the constitution?

payam jan

Do you see the contradiction between that and there being no ties with islam?

So he change, big deal. you don't think that he can change back and revert to whom he once was?

KouroshS, I feel you.

But Mousavi of 1388 is not the same Mousavi of 1360. Yes he is a Khomeini supporter, and yes he is tied to eslam, but he also keeps repeating that he is in favour of "dolate melli", and that he wishes to uphold the constitution. I think he has changed dramatically since his days as Khomeini worshipper, but I realize that in a free Iran, there are individuals more qualified to be the president of Iran. But he was one of the candidates we were allowed to choose from and in my mind he was the best choice.

As said before, it is now beyond Mousavi and it ain't no sweat talk. Wheels are in motion and as AN once put it, it is like a train without brakes.

Payam jan

Thanks for the explanation but If you paid close attention, to both farah and Bijan AM comments, What some people are saying is that how can this guy who was born andbred within the same system, was dubbed as one of the staunchest of  allies of khomeini and his velayate fagih and a dogged supporter of preserving this nezam, be somehow viewed as the most qualified person, by the virtue of getting the highest number of votes? and More importantly how can this guy "improve" lives in the real sense? It is going to be a religious system all the way through! It is a little bit less spicier than befor, but it is the same damn thing in a nutshell.

And how exactly does anyone plan on restructuring of this system, if Mousavi is going to remain on top as the most favorite candidate with his ties to the System? Who is going to do the dismantling? Are you just talking the sweet talk? How can This nation continue with their struggle for democracy when there is suppression at every corner and no one who SERIOUSLY opposing it?