Pictory

What is right

Each of us have the right to express personal opinion. The Issue of the State of Isreal and their policies are to being discussed here. Non of us setting policies to do this or to do that. I am not defending Arabs, Iranian regime by no means. However, I do know I will not accept or justify the performance of a bully state (not Jewish people) who has commited crime against humanity in front of world's eye. I am not suggesting doing anything about it. But, I turned my back and will not justify their actions because Nazis did this or that to jews half a century ago. How dare they do the same things to another human being when they themselves subjected to the same mistreatment? Isn't collective punishment against innocent civilians considered crime in you book?

Bavafa

What do you think of the thousands of the Palestinians who volunteered for Saddam? Why do you think they volunteer? To count the birds or to kill Iranians in the front?

What do you think of the ordinary Palestinian citizens who jumped up and down in joy after hearing news of each of Saddam's victory early in the war?

What do you think of the above, knowing that they were the recepients of Khomeini's well documented generosities when they celebrated Saddam's victories?

I used to be a staunch Palestinian supporter until the news spread among the servicemen about the Palestinian "volunteers" late in 1359. First there were only rumors. Then by early 1360 there were actual Palestinian prisoners of war. Even the most fanatic Pasdars and Basijis were offended. But the IRI capped this serious issue.

Once Iran kicked Saddam out of most of Khuzestan, Palestinians quit sending volunteers.

Now does that mean that I should hate Palestinians for the rest of my life? The answer is obviously no. But it also means that I don't have to tear my shirt for them either. To us Iranians, their cause should be no different than the cause of Tibetians or the Sudanese or the Chechnians.

********************* 

And as far as "the US supported Iraq during the war..." This is such an ignorant concept that can only emanate from people raised in a brainwashed environment.

Any serious foreign interferance with the war began after mid-1361. But Khomeini could have easily ended the war in 1361 after Saddam offered Iran peace and billions of Kuwaiti and Saudi petro dollars for reparation. And there wasn't a thing the US or any other country could do to stop him.

It was not the US nor any other country you are blaming that forced him to reject the peace. IT WAS KHOMEINI HIMSELF WHO REJECTED THE PEACE AND WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANOTHER 7 YEARS OF WAR, not foreigners. It was Khomeini himself who was responsible for sending hundreds of thousands of young Iranians to their death despite knowing that foreign powers are supporting Saddam.

So was the catastrophic results of the war after 1361 the foreigners fault? Or was it the fault of the stupidity, ignorance and irresponsiblity of Khomeini? And what about before 1361? Was it foreigners fault or the stupidity, ignorance and irresponsibilty of Saddam?

If you want to play the blame game, blame the right people.

Bavafa

The idea is to stop them before they start gassing them, get it?

You know very well that is not going to happen. The most right wing Israeli politicians are calling for expulsion. That is no different than what has happened to many people in the hands of so many other nations.

They have already made a Ghetto out of Gaza and the death and destruction that they brought to them during last attack is not far from a "Nazi" type treatment.

Israel just wants the land. They have no desire to keep the Palestinians and would gladly let them go. The Nazi's went looking for Jews well beyond borders of Germany. They round them up in Poland; Netherlands; and anywhere else they could just to kill them. In fact a Jew have a hell of a time getting an exit visa out of German territory.  That is the opposite of Israel behavior. Israel will gladly let the Palestinians go. They just won't let them back in. It is not right but it is a far cry from the Nazis.

Your accusation about hating Jews stem from nothing but not being able to defend their action logically. If not able to defend their action lets accuse them of anti-Jews.

I do not need to nor do I seek to defend Israel. That is not my purpose or job or interest. I am mostly interested in Iran. My point is that Iranians should worry about Iran not Israel. Why is that wrong?

But when I see other people constantly bringing up Israel and ignoring all sort of other human rights violations  the conclusion is inevitable. You may not accept my other examples of human rights violations but that does not make them vanish. I stand by my examples: Russia; China and Sudan. How about IRR and the Baha'i? How about most Muslim countries and atheists? Why the obsession with Israel if not antisemitism?

Anyway this discussion is not getting anywhere. You are welcome to your opinion. I think Iran is much better off having decent relationship with Israel.  I rather see Iran with many friends and that should include Israel.

VPOK: I read your post alright

The idea is to stop them before they start gassing them, get it?

Had the world stopped Nazis much sooner, maybe not so many innocent Jews would have burned in the hands of Germans.

They have already made a Ghetto out of Gaza and the death and destruction that they brought to them during last attack is not far from a "Nazi" type treatment.

Israel is acting far worse then the mentioned countries/regime but that should not be a reason not to condemn those just as strongly.

Your accusation about hating Jews stem from nothing but not being able to defend their action logically. If not able to defend their action lets accuse them of anti-Jews.

Mehrdad

Bavafa

If we were going to go with your logic, then many should have allied with Nazi Germany when they were almost ruling the world, right? After all, it wasn't our problem that they were destroying Jews all over the world, right? Wrong.

You either did not read my post or did not understand it. So I will go over the points once more. 

• Israel is not like Nazi Germany. It is not committing genocide. It is not systematically hoarding Palestinians and gassing them. Get it?
• Israel is acting no worse than many other nations are acting right now such as: Russia; China; Sudan and others. So why should Israel be singled out?
• I question this obsession with Israel. The only reason I can find is an unreasoning hatred of Jews. Maybe I am wrong and if so can you explain that to me please.

And your argument that Palestinians sided with Saddam when he attacked Iran, therefore we should let them burn in hell or some thing like that… well the Americans not only sided with Saddam, they instigated him and gave him all the support he needed then why don't you feel that way about Americans. Isn't that a form of hypocrisy?

First of all I would not have Iran go out of its way to defend America either. That is America's job so I am not inconsistent. If Amercia gets in trouble it has to get out of it on its own. 

In addition, US has provided a safe heaven for millions of Iranians who were forced into exile by the Islamic Republic. One of them is me. My mom taught me to say thank you when someone saves my rear end and not spit back in their face. Obviously that has escaped many of the IRR apologists US haters like Mr. Ommani. 

VPOK: with all due respect,

Perhaps I would agree with your suggestions that we could influence others in a better and more productive way, but that ends what we can agree on.

If we were going to go with your logic, then many should have allied with Nazi Germany when they were almost ruling the world, right? After all, it wasn't our problem that they were destroying Jews all over the world, right? Wrong.

With that logic, why should we expect the world to condemn IRI for their brutal/fascist behavior towards their own citizen… it shouldn’t' be their problem right? Wrong.

We can't obviously fix every injustice in the world but that shouldn't be the reason to side with a regime that is doing the injustice or even stay silent about it.

And your argument that Palestinians sided with Saddam when he attacked Iran, therefore we should let them burn in hell or some thing like that… well the Americans not only sided with Saddam, they instigated him and gave him all the support he needed then why don't you feel that way about Americans. Isn't that a form of hypocrisy?

Or is it that you just like to be on the side of the powerful, even if the powerful once in while just like to have his fun with us.

Mehrdad

Re: What is Right

Nations make alliances for their own good not the good of others. I do feel for the Palestinians. But I feel more for the Iranian people. Remember both majority Palestinians and the PLO were pro Saddam in the war. They were fine with him gassing Iranians. We owe them nothing.

Now lets review Israel. They are not putting people into ovens or gassing people to death. They have kicked out a large number of Palestinians off land once owned by Palestinians. Lets agree to that. That is not unique and there are plenty of examples: Bahrain was a part of Iran just some 60 years ago. It was ethnically cleansed of Iranians and handed over to its Arab population by the "Allies". The allies also ethnically cleansed 1/3 of pre-WWII German territory and handed it over to Poland in return for territory Russia took from Poland. China has completely taken over Tibet. Does this mean that Iran should have no relations with: The WWII Allies: US; UK; Russia; Bahrain; China and any other nation that has ethnically cleansed a group? 

After the establishment of Israel most Arab nations kicked out all their Jewish population. Why does no one ever complain about that? If Israel had returned the favor there would be no occupied territories with a Palestinian population. They could have annexed the territories and kicked out the inhabitants like so many other people have done. It would not have been right or just but would have save them the headache. I am bothered that all the condemnation seems to be directed towards the Jews.

We Iranians  rail against US being the police of the world. Do we want to replace US as the world police? Is it our job for right every injustice? Why not Chechnya or Tibet or Bahrain.  A better way is to mind our own business and make friends with everyone.  In that way we are going to be more able to mediate and influence things for good. Iran is at a weak point in her history. We need all the allies we can find and Israel is a valuable and natural one. It will be good for the world.

What is right

In this dispute, how can we stand and support Israel?We are human beings and we should always try to help those how can't defend themselves for what is right. There is nothing we can do to help except showing our dissatisfaction to those who are commiting crimes against other human beings just because they can. I turn my back to those who are killing defenceless civilians and children regardless of their religion or ethnicity.

Bavafa

If you had only two choices, would you side with Israel or with the Palastinians?

VPOK:

There has been a lot of aggressive behavior on both sides, depending on how far back you want to go. But what we have at hand at present time (actually for a few years now) an all Arab initiative to recognize Israel with full diplomatic relationship if Israel agrees to go to pre1967 boarders which is the recognized board based on international law. So far Israel has not shown any interest in wanting to make peace with its neighbors, on the contrary she has been attacking its neighbors (Syria as just a few months ago). So, they remain the occupiers and some of their treatment of their neighbors resembles very closely to what the Nazi Germany did.

With all that in mind, for Iran to align with a regime that occupies and oppresses its neighbors is wrong, even if that regime is powerful at the time.

Mehrdad

Bavafa

Israel is not hell bent on destroying its neighbors. I agree its responses are disproportional. But they are generally responses. Who was it that wanted to push the Jews in the sea? Hint: The same guy who wanted to rename the Persian Gulf the Arabian whatever: Nasir was a mad pan-Arab megalomaniac who wanted to wipe out Israel. He lost but at the end Israel gave back the taken land anyway. So if they were so evil and expansionist why not keep it. Why did the Israeli's give back the Sinai dessert. Would Nasir have given back Israel territory? I don't think so. Heck Nasir was even claiming the Persian Gulf from thousands of miles! 

There is no question Iran is better off allies with Israel. This is plain common sense. Not to mention it is the precedence set in our shared 2500 years of history.

I have known many Israeli's. They are not anti-Iranian. They will make us great allies.

VPK

If Iran had been left

If Iran had been left alone, they would have build an alliance with Nazi Germany but we all agree allegiance with Nazi Germany would not have been good or right for Iranians.

Ezrael is a fascist regime that has been hell bend on destruction of its neighbors. Alliance with Ezrael is just as wrong as alliance with Nazi Germany was.

Mehrdad

Alam memoir's

 can anyone confirm that it is 6 jeld's?

so what's the problem?

Here you see a natural alliance between wo non Arab countries or entities 
with historical ties going back  to thousand of years,
surrounded by sea of hostile Arabs who through the action and words
expressed their disdain time after time for both and given a chance they will not
hesitate in destroying both. (Saddam's nuclear bomb program was aimed
at Tehran till it was forcefully stopped by U.S) .

This alliance is
logical and practical and post IRR it should be implemented again,
only this time with Israel embassy should be open right in middle of Tehran. If ommatis don't like it feel free to move to najaf, karbela or mecca.

Nourani

If you look at our officials during Pahlavi rign, they all had " Nourani" face and clean cut. Now look at Islmic regime officials, they all look like" Yazid". Why?

Good Ol' days

When Israel was a friend and we were learning a thing or two from them.  Nowadays we are looking down on A-rabs to learn a thing or two from them and we are still waiting after 30 years.  To the day when we can throw these A-rab Mullahs out of Iran, reclaim our country and invite the Israeli's and for that matter anyone who wants to have a normal and mutually benefitial relationhip with us, back. 

Funny how IRI TV seems to see this alliance as negative

This report dates from I believe the Reform years or at best before the Iranian Elections last June to explain Iran's Stance against Israel.

But everything in this Report indicates that IRan's alliance with Israel was Far From Treacherous but Coherent and benefited all those involved in a mutual reciprocal respect.

Funny how the image of Nourizadeh is Freezed and that the so called SAVAK officer interviewed in the end confessing to Mossad's Involvement in Iran is simply a Voice Over.

Much knoweledge today about the Imperial Era proves that Iran's foreign Policy was both Coherent, Independant and served our National Interests contrary to the claim that we were puppets of the US or Israel.

Even the SAVAK had one Master to Report to and that was the Shah and not some unnamed Israeli Mossad Officer.

By the mid Seventies the Shah thanks to the Oil Boom was distancing himself as an Independant Ruler which frightened even the Nixon Administrations to some extent despite Iran's Staunch Pro US Stance in particular in it's fight against Communism.

In addition the Shah was the unsung hero of the Camp David Accords for it was the Shah more than Carter who convinced Sadat of sitting at the Israelian table and sign the Peace Treaty.

//www.payvand.com/news/08/aug/1044.html

Only Carter, Sadat and Begin benefitted from the recognition of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1977 but the Real Mastermind was the Shah who organized secret meeting between Rabin, Begin and Sadat on the Caspian Sea Resorts far earlier than the Camp David negotiations which were filmed and publicized by the press at large for all to see.

Shah of Iran, Tehran's Niavaran Palace, 1978

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHn_FCi95j0

Khak Too Sareh Oon Mellaty Keh Enghelab Kard dar Oon Zamaneh Hassas va nafahmeed.

Oh Well Now History is acknowledging the Pahlavis as True Patriots and Nationalists ! 

VIVE LA RESTORATION !

LOL