Pictory

I wish you better luck next

I wish you better luck next time.

No Fear - VF

It is amply clear :)  

FB ...

How could you draw to conclusion so easily?

The only thing that you could be certain about my political stance is my acceptance of our constitution. Thats all. you could call me a constitutionalist. But putting me in the same boat as a absolutist points to your weird sense of logic. How did you draw to that?

Besides, " Esteglal, Azadi, Jomhori Eslami " is the slogan of IR since it legitimacy after the referendum. I believe in that too.

my stance on Velayate Fagih has also been very clear , please don't tell me i have wasted my time with that long post earlier.

The " Fagih " comments i made were pointing to a more cultural need than a political necessity.  Do you need more clarifications?

Thank you anyway, I think it

Thank you anyway, I think it is important to clarify positions. Funny thing is you have so much in common with Darius Kadivar, only if you could agree on the choice of Sultan ;)

Excellent analogy. I wonder how NF can sleep tonight knowing that he is no different than DK...LOL

Thank you No Fear!!

You did not blow my mind, thankfully ;)  Your response was the natural conclusion I was pointing to!  Of course the system under the Shah was not a constitutional monarchy and was an absolutist one, but people did not have a revolution calling for a 'constitutional monarchy', did they? :)  You say our people needed a "fagih" in 1979!  Was that one of the slogans of the revolution?!  Even the "Islamic Republic" slogan was introduced by Khomenie at the later stages, and it would have carried no water had it not been sold as a "Republic", first and foremost.  Thank you anyway, I think it is important to clarify positions.  Funny thing is you have so much in common with Darius Kadivar, only if you could agree on the choice of Sultan ;)

Good Night.   

FB ...

I used the term " costitutional monarchy " just to put the VF idea in to some perspective and draw similarities.

However, i am going to blow your mind regardless and claim we might never had a 1979 if we could have had a " constitutional monarchy " during the " Mashrooteh" movement. The religious elites throughout our history are very familiar with this concept as a governing system and have advocated such for centuries.

It is only natural that we move from Reza shah to khomeini.  Our people needed a " Fagih" in 1979.  The green movement needs a " Fagih" so does the Iranian opposition abroad needs one now. In reality, not much has changed. The will of the people is to have a fagih regardless, whether its now or 1979. I rest my case.

No Fear - VF

Montazeri believed that the concept of VF had been abused and taken too far in areas beyond its remit.  He also challenged, as did many, Khamenei's qualifications for VF.  

However, my point was not to discuss whose 'fault' it was.  I wanted to see how you personally viewed the issue and thank you, you clarified that.  I was hoping you might say, you were not happy with the idea but support the constitution, but I am an incurable optimist :)

I take up just one point which exemplifies others that can be taken up.  Did people in Iran have a revolution to set up a republic to have a system you yourself call akin to "constitutional monarchy'? :) 

FB ...

I wrote a term paper on the totaliterian aspect of Plato's philosophy , therefore, i am very familiar with where you are going with your questions.

The concept of velayate Fagih has been debated over and over , even today in religious seminaries. This is not what Khamenie invented. Even this concept does not belong to Khomeinie either. It was Montazeri who advocated it.

Montazeri argued;  VF can understand the will of God and explain these to others. 

However, all “accepted” interpretations of the velayate faghih  agree that the authority of the spiritual leader is only relative in relation to other faghihs. In other words these other faghihs have rights in relation to the clerical ruler, can have views different from his and can insist on these views. Indeed, according to most traditions the spiritual leader acquires his legitimacy through the affirmation of these senior clerics.  ( Keep this in mind , this is not a single ruler but more like Plato's elite class)

The Assembly of Experts, which according to the Constitution can appoint and remove the spiritual leadership if it becomes a totaliterian entity or if it fails to perform its duties properly is a safeguard institute over the powers of VF. ( Velayate Fagih is not completely a dictatorship )

Perhaps the views and quotes from Khameneie himself about VF is more telling;

“the leadership means that point where the insoluble problems of government is solved at his hands. His person lights up the truth for the people and exposes the conspiracies of the enemy ... stands up against international political conspiracies and counterpoises the totality of the revolution against conspirators, forcing the enemy to retreat. Confronted by the divisive tactics of the enemy, the leadership is the source of friendship and a deterrent to divisions, [he] joins hands together...”

I personally don't have a problem with this interpretation of VF by Khameneie. Its very similar to a constitutional monarch in terms of responsibilities with more attention given to foreign policies.

While Montazeri's word by word theology about VF will eventually leads to dictatorship, the safeguard institution defined in our constitution will most likely prevent that from happening.

Khamenie has not exercised his rights as a Fagih in our politics and has always acted more like a moderator in Iran's politics, exactly how he defined leadership in his speech above.

However, i understand why the concept of velayate Fagih has been used to point to an undomocratic system. Its good propaganda and it weakens the VF concept all together. The reality on the ground is different. Almost all IR institutions are being watched and checked by other institutions. This is how Khomeini wanted to be done. No one truely holds all the power.

No Fear - VF

You say you are bound by the Constitution and will respect a new constitution if changes are done through legal channels.  Okay.  But tell me what YOU personally, as a citizen of Iran, believe.  Do you believe VF which is, as you say yourself, and give the example of Arastoo, the rule of the elite over the majority, right and just?

 Respecting a 'majority decision' - and let's assume for the sake of argument that the Constitution is majority decision - is different from agreeing with every aspect of it.  VF is an extremely important matter overshadowing everything else in our system of governance.  So, do you have any opinions yourself?  To think and hold an opinion contrary to the constitution is a citizen's right and doesn't contradict supporting and respecting the constitution as a whole.  So tell us please if you can.

NF: You just proved my

NF: You just proved my point. Thank you. I don't care to engage in a discussion with someone who believes in VF. You also prove that ignorance knows no boundaries or limits.

David, you are right 100%

از میان مردم آن سرزمین، آنها را که نمیفهمند و کم سوادند، به
کارهای بزرگ بگمار. آنها که میفهمند و با سوادند، به کارهای کوچک و پست
بگمار. بی سوادها و نفهم ها همیشه شکرگزار تو خواهند بود و هیچگاه توانایی
طغیان نخواهند داشت. فهمیده ها و با سوادها هم یا به سرزمینهای دیگر کوچ
میکنند یا خسته و سرخورده، عمر خود را تا لحظه مرگ، در گوشه ای از آن
سرزمین در انزوا سپری خواهند کرد 

This is so true in today's middle East geopolitics. One has to only look at most Arabs countries and see how these pro US/West are governed. The rulers are all less than intelligent dictators and they are fully backed by the West/US/Israel . 

Based on what David wrote above, one can only deduce that if IRI is known as an enemy to the West/US/Israel, then it must be the only country that stands out against the very policies of those who estabish and support dictatorial regimes across ME with less than intelligent and incompetent rulers! isn't that how the ME has been ruled by the modern colonialistss in the post WWII ? 

;-))

there is no law in the wild wild east!

vildemose - cannot shame the shameless.

Vildemose...

Your rationality is limited by the information you have, the cognitive limitations of your mind, and the finite amount of time you have to make a post without thinking about it.

I wish you better luck next time.

FB ...

I am bounded by the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

velayateh fagih is a part of our constitution.

If the constitution changes through legal venues, then i will follow the new constitution.

No Fear, Oh MY!

Am I to understand now that you oppose the idea of Velayate Fagih?! :)

Abarmard and no fear

Abarmard and no fear epitomize the inteleectual poverty of those crimianl gangs who run the state of affairs in Iran and as long as this type of people are in position of power, things will only get worse.

How insulting...

David,

I hope your little story which parts of it you highlighted, was not meant for the current situation in Iran.

To assume those who put their tails between their legs and flee the country were  " Thinkers" and " educated" while the rest of those stayed behind and assumed positions in the most difficult of times were " bi savad " , speakes volume about how you are so full of it. 

 For your information, the "masses " which Aristotle ( Arasto ) calls Bi savad are actually those with any real political power. Arasto was influenced by Plato ( Aflaatoon ) who believed in the idea of the aristrocrate ruling over the masses. A very similar concept to the " Velayate Fagih ". 

Daivd ET

I went to many countries that are doing great in economic terms. They are free and moving to higher spots in many develop world's standards.

They (Their citizens) all want out!I wonder how many people would leave most developed or developing countries if they could, the answer might shock you.

From the point of thinkers and artists, I believe most developed world is lagging behind dramatically. In developed world, artists and thinkers are sitting in corners feeling depressed and alone. Just to let you know that it's not exclusive to a country or government but related to the world capital domination. The fact is that "better" in most cases comes from images built in your head. The concept of needs and wants that you perceive, in many cases are what is presented to you as beautiful, attractive, and desirable. These are not the choices that people make, but the images that has been imprinted in people's head as desirable. It is very important to lose one's romantic political ideas for realities that are taking place around the globe. Then try to vision a better life. Perhaps then most of us would be more objective.

This is a generalization, but nevertheless true in any standards.

David

That isone awesone story you said there. It makes a lot of sense and that is what IRI is doing today.

History repeated

میگویند اسکندر قبل از حمله به ایران درمانده و مستأصل بود. از خود میپرسید که چگونه باید بر مردمی که از مردم من بیشتر میفهمند حکومت کنم؟
یکی از مشاوران میگوید:
کتابهایشان را بسوزان. بزرگان و خردمندانشان را بکش و دستور بده به زنان و کودکانشان تجاوز کنند.
اما ظاهراً یکی دیگر از مشاوران (به قول برخی، ارسطو) پاسخ میدهد:
نیازی به چنین کاری نیست. از میان مردم آن سرزمین، آنها را که نمیفهمند و کم سوادند، به کارهای بزرگ بگمار. آنها که میفهمند و با سوادند، به کارهای کوچک و پست بگمار. بی سوادها و نفهم ها همیشه شکرگزار تو خواهند بود و هیچگاه توانایی طغیان نخواهند داشت. فهمیده ها و با سوادها هم یا به سرزمینهای دیگر کوچ میکنند یا خسته و سرخورده، عمر خود را تا لحظه مرگ، در گوشه ای از آن سرزمین در انزوا سپری خواهند کرد                         

visit: www.iransecular.org