Current Events

Dear Siavash

I agree that Shahs policies helped get respect for Iranians. Yes you are right but UK actually does let Iranians in now. It is harder but not impossible. Plus I blame UK and US for the Mullahs. They brought them to power.

It is a bit odd that they would deliberately betray the Shah. Then punish Iranians for the regime they put in power themselves. Iranians are to blame for falling for it. The West specially UK is to blame for pushing for Khomeini.

The whole thing stinks and makes me mad. I know about profiling it was specially bad in Holland. To a point I will never go back there again. They create this disaster for us. Then blame us. 

Dear VPK, I was being misunderstood. May be deliberately !!!

"I do not consider being respected by Apartheid something to be proud of!" VPK

"Disturbingly twisted and racist. This is not respect. This is called unadultrated bigotry" Vildmose

The point is NOT the "race" here. We are talking about shah's smart leadership who brought dignity and respect for Iranians around the world. On the contrary,  mullahs brought disgrace and disrespect for Iranians.Shah dignified Iranians in all his foreign policy. One Abadani man with  dark complexion, though with Iranian passport could travel in any parts any time in south africa during apartheid. One Indian with light complexion such as Europeans could not.

 The reason was shah made friends around the world. As a result,  Iranians were well respected,  even in the eyes of the most hateful racist country such as south africa. We are talking about shah and his foreign policy. We were not talking about racist south africa. Some people was trying deliberately change the subject. I don't know why. I am saying since these Islamic monsters occupied Iran, they disgraced Iranians internationally. The international community started to look at Iranians as a "terrorists" or "gang" or something like Palestians. My discussion has nothing to do with race. During shah days, Iranians didn't need visa to travel to U.K. Just get a ticket, jump on the plane and few hours later get off London airport. It was like going to Shiraz from Tehren. That was "respect".

 After these islamic bastards took power. No entry for Iranians to U.K. It doesn't matter how much money they had. Simply NO Iranians were allowed to enter to U.K. I am sure, there were so many Iranians with a lots of money who wanted to spend there. But none were allowed to get into that counrty.  That is crystal clear. I don't know what part Parham don't understand. After Islamic criminal took power, Airports around the world started to racially profiling Iranians. In airports, searching all over Iranians bodies including their butt holes are "Disrespect". Something that never happened to Iranians when shah was on power.  The respect from other nations toward Iranians was the result of shah smart foreign policy. The disrespect from other nations toward Iranians, after revolution, was the result of ruling a bunch of the rag heads Islamic criminals.  

Over. out.

Siavash

The Lesson You All Might Be Missing About Apartheid South Africa

The whites there willingly gave up their political power to please some strangers around the world who didn't even know them or care about them.

... and now, whites are being murdered in South Africa. Its almost a genocide against them. 

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_at...

All the people elsewhere who they were trying to impress by giving up the Apartheid system that protected them, aren't doing anything for them. 

So what lesson can we learn from this?

I'd say that one lesson is to never care or pay attention to world opinion, or what some strangers somewhere think of you. 

Instead, do what's in the best interest of your OWN PEOPLE. 

Apartheid South Africa Liked Iranians? Good!

I'd rather be respected by Apartheid South Africa than by the post-Apartheid South Africa, which has probably the highest rape rate in the word.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

Responses

• I do not consider being respected by Apartheid something to be proud of!
• The reason South Africa was nice to Iran was because we sold them oil. Plain and simple give and take.

Almost the whole world hated Apartheid so they were desperate. We had oil; the needed it. Hence the deal. It was not that they liked Iranians; just our oil.

Dear Arj

A waste, it has been!

Siavash

Look, tell yourself that if some people treated the same individuals very differently from one day to another, there might be something wrong with those people, and therefore they aren't exactly to be considered "marja'e taghlid" in any case!

Also please repeat after me -- "khodam kardam ke la'nat bar khodam bad." Otherwise, please read Nezami's most valuable poem "az mast ke bar mast" and ponder heavily upon it.

That "ma" includes the Shah (and his dada), may I add.

Regards.

Parham's concern

" you didn't need a visa doesn't exactly mean respect, it means they know you as a big stupid spender so they facilitate your spending for you" Parham

So why there was a big line of Pakistani, Filipino, Arabs in fron of the U.K embassy in those days? huh, according to your believe system, Brits authorities might have thought there wouldn't be  rich person among other nations beside Iranians to spend their money in England? Only Iranians were stupid enough to spend their money over there. No other nations. Is that your logic.? Only Iran had those.  That may be true, but personally I don't buy. come on, I have more intellect than that.

In summer of 1976, I travelled to England. I wanted to go to Brits embassy prior to make a reservation, I was surprised to hear from my neighbore in Tehran that  Iranians didn't need visa. The claim was approved by travel agent in Vila street once I went there to get a ticket. That was respect that we were receiving from Brits authorities by shah's smart leadership.

In 1980,I was student in Upsalla University, Sweden. I didn't like the language and I wanted to go to England. I tried to go there to study. I received very bad treatment once I went to Brits emabassy in Stockholm. I remember one brits guy who didn't know my nationality said you must be Iranian that received bad treatment. No visa to Iranians. It didn't matter you want to spend money there or you want to steal money from them. Mullahs brought disgrace for Iranians around the world. Similar disrespect I received when I went to Canada emabassy in Stockholm. I still remember the face of that cute girl who was insulting me because of ruling mullahs in Iran. That was disrespect. I am suprise you still don't see the line between respect and disrespect. It is simple. Just listen to the tone of the voice. Facial gesture and the way they talk to you. You will see either they are respecting you or they are disrepecting you. Sometimes they use valgur language that is very frank and indication of "disrepect".

"What a silly thing to take pride in being considered "white" by an apartheid government" Parham

Like I said before it is not about "race" it is about "respect". We know we were not Europeans and we don't even share the same history, but we received the same privileges of European counterpart. That was "respect" to Iranians from South Africans apartheid. It all came from shah's smart leadership in the world. One of the moeist in those days was arguing with me why shah is friend with racist apartheid.  That is the fact. Now, if they treated Iranians like a piece a dirt, like what they did to Arabs and Indians or pakistani, would it make you happy.? It won't make me happy, It would have made me vomit if they didn't respect me and I was restricted going certain area after certain time. it would have been discosting. I don't know about you.

"that civilization is what you show on the surface without any substance; being "rich" and acting "rich" while in the same country there are people starving." Parham

"Free nutrition" was established in schools to feed all children. " NO Iranian children should go to bed hungery." That was shah's idea. God bless his soul. I still critizing my aunt who used to sneak food from school and bring it home for herself as a teacher. She was abusing the system.  

BTW, F.Y.I.  I have never been rich in my entire life. I have always struggled to make money.

Re the points

Dear Parham, what I meant was, triviality aside, that even was not the case on either issue! Neither the British visa non-requirement for Iranians, nor the racist South Africans considering Iranians as white, hence the "honorary white" title!

P.S. Nonetheless, what a waste of time it's been!

Re The visas

Dear Arj, I'm not sure how it worked in the case of the UK, but I know, for example, that the Danes used to give you a visa right there at Copenhagen airport. I think that was also the case for Italy, France and Switzerland, but don't quote me on that!

But then you know, tourist visit is always different from long stay for study.

Re the point

Dear Parham, if that's the case, then my brother must've been stiffed big time! In order to go to school in England, not only he had to present his letter of acceptance from the Leeds U to the British embassy in Tehran in order to obtain student visa, but a whole bunch of other documents along with it!

Good point, Arj

The reality is that many European countries just stamped their visa as you landed there, without much hassle.
I don't know how it worked in South Africa though.

Re whiteness

Not that the issues of visa requirement or racial designation by a defunct racist system matters to our present situation, but I couldn't help but wonder if they even are based on true facts! For one thing, as far as I remember, except some third world cash-strapped countries such as Turkey (which still doesn't need visa for Iranians), all other countries required visa from Iranian citizens before the 1979 revoution.

Secondly, I remember a close relative of mine who was a diplomat (foreign ministry staff) back in mid 70s, telling a story about his visit to South Africa and his dilemma with the aparthide caste system since Iranians were not considered white. And that in order for him to have unrestricted acces, he was issued an "honorary white" access card by the SA interior ministry! It indeed is a shame that such travesties can be a source of pride to some desperate people!

Jahan Khalili

The truth is Iran/Persia was, at one point, part of the American every day existence (Google "Mossadeq"). Later on, it was again since the Americans were getting most of their oil (a lot of their livelihood at the time) from us. If it weren't, it would only be a sign of American ignorance again, not the other way around.

Siavash300

I understand what you're saying.

I too would like there to be friendship between Iranians (my father's people) and white people of European descent (my mother's people). 

3. We have been classified

3. We have been classified as "White" during Apartheid regime in south africa during shah days. We were receiving all privileges and benefits of Europeans counterparts. Arabs, Indians, pakistani classified as a 2 or 3 class citizen. They were restricted to go to downtown area after 6 p.m. That was not the case for Iranians.  That was respect.

 Disturbingly twisted and racist. This is not respect. This is called unadultrated bigotry. You have a lot of disrespect for yourself because of the hatred your harbor for others. You must not really love yourself much.

Reform requires the consent of the corrupt

Shame or No Shame

Iranians were not part of every day existence for Americans. Americans had no reason to know about or care about them.

It wasn't until Iran was in the news every night for about a year that Americans started to notice that there is this country out there called "Eye ran".

Otherwise, why should they have cared? 

Siavash300

None of those things amount to respect.

That's the elite in America - which runs this country - making policy towards another country based on their own interest.

It says nothing about Iran or Iranians. 

I'll tell you all what respect is.

Its when someone who initially hates you because of your Iranian background becomes your friend and has a change of heart through getting to know you.

That's respect.

Otherwise, anyone who treats me a certain way based on their perceptions of me - without even knowing me or anything about me - is not respecting me. They are just acting on some perception that is in their mind that has nothing to do with who I actually am - whether they are "respecting" me or "disrespecting" me. 

Jahan Khalili

Well shame on them then! Shows how ignorant they were despite their wealth (which doesn't prove anything by the way -- being wealthy I mean).

Parham

East Cleveland, Forest Hills and Cleveland Heights was middle class and upper middle class.

The homes there were real brick, and were built by the Rockefeller family.

Our neighbors included a retired four star general, and a medical doctor. 

Check out the homes in my former neighborhood:

//www.trulia.com/property-sitemap/OH/East_Cleveland/44112/Brewster_Road/ 

Jahan Khalili

Think of it this way: Maybe you're surrounded by a lot of backward, ignorant Americans, which should not be too surprising.

That's not respect

What a silly thing to take pride in being considered "white" by an apartheid government, or getting an honorary doctorate from Ceausescu, yet another mass-murdering dictator! Really, Siavash.

And the fact that you didn't need a visa doesn't exactly mean respect, it means they know you as a big stupid spender so they facilitate your spending for you. Now that not only you don't spend, but steal and more, plant bombs here and there for amusement, they won't give you a visa! You think Saudi Arabians have respect in the world now? No. They're usually considered --behind their backs-- as "towel-head camel-riders" by a lot of the western countries. The same countries bow in front of the same Saudis (and lately not even that) so they get the dollars they spend buying oil from that country back. They haven't turned the Saudis into big fat spenders for nothing. It was the same with our country. You mean you didn't know that? Wake up!

And whether I agree Iran was a wealthy country under the Shah, well duh, Iran is a very wealthy country anyway because of the oil; but I believe the wealth distribution was badly done before the revolution (due to corruption, theft and largely mismanagement) and it is even worsely done now -- for the same reasons!

"I never claimed we were like Japan, but we were on the right path to get there. Shah had great vision for Iran. He wanted we get to that point in short period of time. He always emphasized on Grand Civilalization."

No so, friend. Iranian economy was stalling after 1975 due to heavy reliance on imports, precisely because your Shah, in his nouveau-riche delusions, wanted to get us to the doors of the "Great Civilization" and thought, like all you nouveau-riche Shahollahis, that civilization is what you show on the surface without any substance; being "rich" and acting "rich" while in the same country there are people starving.

And no, he and his father didn't get it up their butts because of the clergy, they got it both because of their short-sightedness -- one who thought he should shove everything down people's throat, and the other who not only thought that, but wasn't even half as realistic as his dada and had all sorts of superstitions -- despite him being literate and his dada being completely illiterate.

I mean, don't even try making me open my mouth about your idol now, will you?

And frankly, about the racism in your comments, I think deep down we both know where they come from, and it's not from the apartheid regime of South Africa. Just that the fossils of the previous regime have no clue what anything is anymore as much as they live in denial.

Iran's view during shah days

"these claims about Iran once being a "respected" country is balogney. "Jahankhali

You missed all my points my friend.

1. We did NOT need visa to travel to U.K.when shah was on power.  After revolution U.K did NOT allowed any Iranian into England. I couldn't get to England in 1980, but I flight with no Visa to England in 1976. That was respect. and that is the fact.

2. We did NOT racially profiled in the airports around the world when shah was on power. We are being racially profiled in airports around the world once shah left the country. That was respect.

3. We have been classified as "White" during Apartheid regime in south africa during shah days. We were receiving all privileges and benefits of Europeans counterparts. Arabs, Indians, pakistani classified as a 2 or 3 class citizen. They were restricted to go to downtown area after 6 p.m. That was not the case for Iranians.  That was respect.

4. We could travel to France without any inhibition of france government because shah was friend with General Du Gaul. That was respect.

5. Romanian was communist country and no one from "pro western" countries could travel there. Our shah was warmly welcomed there and received "honorable doctora degree" from the hand of President of Romania. That was respect.

Iran became "Infamous" after revolution. That is different with being "respected". Even being "infamous" there are still people who don't differenciate between Iran and Iraq. That is another story. it has nothing to do with above paragraphs I mentioned.  

Actually, Most People Had Never Even Heard of Iran During Shah

None of my American friends or teachers knew anything about it, at that time.

I'd tell them my father is from Iran, and they'd say "huh?". 

They only heard of Iran after the revolution.

(And some of them still don't quite know the difference between Iran and Iraq, or that Iranians aren't Arab). 

I think all these claims about Iran once being a "respected" country is balogney.

No one ever really cared about it or paid particular attention to it, until after the Shah was overthrown. 

I dont know why Iranians crave appreciation from people who never even really cared about them. 

Respect and developing country

"....then, we were seen as nouveau-riche spenders....." parham

So you agree that under shah's smart leadership we were wealthy nation. Please remember , when you have money you have power.

Respect means, no Iranians needed visa to U.K. while there was a big line of filipinos, pakistani, indians, arabs, chinese in the front for Brits. Embassy around the world. Just take a ticket for Iranian, get on the plane to London in a few hours. it wasas easy as traveling from Tehran to Shiraz.  

Respect means, the honorable doctora degree from president of Romania to shah,  where no other pro western leader could even travel there. 

Respect means, Iranians were using the same privilege as European counterpart under Apartheid in South Africa versus all Arabs, Pakistani, Indian, Asian were deprived from those privileges.

Respect means, there were no "racial profiling" in the airports around the world for Iranians.

Had we been industrial society such as Japan, or Germany? Of course, NOT. No one claimed that. We were developing country such as the rest of the middle east countries such as Syria, Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan and all Arab worlds. I never claimed we were like Japan, but we were on the right path to get there. Shah had  great vision for Iran. He wanted we get to that point in short period of time. He always emphasized on Grand Civilalization. He and his father tried their best to get Iran to that point, but they were facing resistance from shia clergies and other traditionalist who were viewing modernization as a threat to their existance. They saw it as a threat to their traditional Islamic believe system. Ayatollah Modares in Tehran, Mirza khochack khan in Gilan, mullah Kheyabani in Tabriz, Khomaini, ....... you name it... there were those people who stifle our progress toward industrialization. 

BTW, the racist apartheid classfied Iranians as like Europeans,I didn't. So blame it on them if there was a racist tone in my discussion.

You mean "clarification for Arj"

Otherwise no, we didn't have the respect that you claim we had. We certainly had more than now, but even then, we were seen as nouveau-riche spenders from a backward country who thought they had reached civilization by having struck oil; which I might add, was not too far from the truth.

A lot of us actually still think that way. Just go to Los Angeles.

More, your message contains so many racist connotations that I don't really want to continue replying to you.

Clarification for Parham.

Parham, please see below:

 " I do believe that British were a colonial power who exploited our nation and our natural resources. They imposed an unfair and exploitative treaty on our nation by coersion and deceit, and when we decided to do away " Arj

"(Iran) natural resources were exploited by colonial powers".Arj

" it was signed between the governments of Iran and Great Britain" Arj

The writer highlight 2 important issues here.

1. Dismissal of Muzaffar Al din shah as a sole reason for oil agreement.

2. Make Britian looks as a powerful govenment who was dictating whatever they wanted to Iranian people.

We can say Muzaffar Al din shah was high on opium when he signed that agreement.

We can say Muzaffar Al din shah was greedy for money when he signed that agreement.

But for sure, we can NOT say he was under "Coersion" as the writer says.

No one put gun on his head to sign that treaty with William D'arcy. The writer doesn't even know D'arcy was NO a government or Gove.'s representative. He was money hunger guy who made a fortune from gold in Auteralia before he focused his attention on oil.  

We have a habit of blaming others for our shortcoming. It is always others fault and we are perfect people on the face of the earth. Gov. change, social unrest, you name it, it is all other's fault, not us.  

Now, when Khomaini embraced Yasser Arafat and when Rafsanjani shake hands with Nelson Mandela, the writers such as Masood Kazemzadeh or alike people on this site allow themselves to call Iran being colony, means, nokar of foreign establishment. That it insult to our people. They allow themselves to degrade Iranians' international prestige to the level of homeless palestianians or black people with long history of slaverly in Africa. Even under Qjar weak and corrupted dynasty we were powerful nation. Thanks to our people. We have never been slaves, nor have we ever been slave masters in our history. Therefore, we don't have "guilty conscious" as Jahan khali has or inferiority feelings as black people have.  

That never happened when shah was on power. We were all well respected. Our social class and international prestige were all preserved. In Apartheid south africa, we all received the same treatment as European counterpart. We were NOT at the same rank of blacks, arabs as some people on this site try to put it that way. All these condescending words such as we were colony , or colonial power started when shah left the country.   

Siavash300

I'm not sure if you know the meaning of colonization to begin with, but that's a whole other issue on it's own! However, In order for a treaty (and no arguments on who it's signed by here) to be legal and official in Iran, it has to be ratified by Iranian parliament, hence the constitutional revolution in 1906! Iranian parliament never ratified the Anglo-Iranian oil treaty, but on the contrary, denounced it! Do you understand what that means? In international law it means that that contract had no legal basis, whether it was signed by Mazafaradin Shah or the Iranian government, or even Khaujeh Hafez-e Shirazi, does not make a difference! That is why the International Court of Justice found the British government's claims against the government of Iran without legal standings!

Parham

You are not going to get anywhere with this person. Proof that oil reserves are not required are all over to see. I already once gave example of India and Japan. Many nations advanced without having oil reserves.

But arguing with this person is just going to get you worked up. Because the person is not interested in a discussion. Rather just to get you worked up. That is why I don't bother to even respond to him. There is no point in doing it.

Iran never got there

Oil was discovered right before the turn of the century.

Oh come on...

What was Iran growing that fueled modernization and economic development?

Nothing, right?