Pictory

Re Safavids, religion and monarchy...

Joubin, evidently you did not get my point with regards to dictatorships that suffocate all secular political alternatives, hence empower the religious institutions (whether in its Shia form, such as Hezbollah, or sunni such as Ikhwan Moslemin) as a viable alternative under whose auspecies all repressed political forces galvanize (e.g. in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya... as well as 1979 Iran)! That has nothing to do with Shia/Sunni issue! Nonetheless, you have no problem with dragging Safavids into a discussion that has nothing to do with them, yet find Shah's Arab fellow dictators (Mobarak, Ben Ali...) irrelevant to what is the integral part of my argument!

Let me try one more time; petty dictators such as Shah, Mobarak, Ben Ali... albeit secular in nature, empower religious Islamic institutions (regardless of Shia/sunni issue) by destroying any chance of a national discourse due to their intolerance for political dissent and eradication of secular parties. However, due to their otherwise lack of drive (either due to personal tenets like Shah's superstitious beliefs and/or fear of provoking popular religious sentiments, in case of Mobarak and Ben Ali), they leave the religious institutions (unlike other civil society institutions) intact!

Hence, since Islamic institutions are well-organized by nature, they are able to take advantage of the situation, in case of the downfall of the dictator, to fill the power vaccum created by elimination of the autocratic rule in charge of nearly every single state affair! However, such situations could be avoided if the petty dictators (in our case, Shah) allow an atmosphere of national discourse to create an equilibrium among the political parties. But unfortunately, our dictator "shahshah ariamehr," did not loosen his power grab until he decided to escape the situation!

Elham khanum, It seems to

Elham khanum,

It seems to me that you did not listen carefully to what His Majesty said about women.  If you are still willing to contribute to Emamzade Aryamehr, there must be something wrong with this woman!  With apologies.

In the begining of Christian new year

At the begining of 2012, I pray for those who has eternal OGHDEH against our late shah.

    May spirit of Christianity help them to over come their chornic OGHDEH and hate which they kept in their hearts for our late shah. Our shah who worked deligently to modernized and progressed our country to the standard of European countries. 

     Iran was part of Europe in the Middle East when shah was on power. Even in the most racist state such as Apartheid regime in south Africa Iranians were treated like European counter part because of shah's smart leadership.  I hope these people with long term OGHDEH against shah to be more affectionate about our people, our country and crown Reza Pahlavi in the year of 2012.

Our new year resolution:

                    RE-ESTABLISHING MONARCHY in 2012

VPK

I was not implying by an means that opposing war is to be anti-American. Unfortunately, it is the likes of Amir Parviz-(and I do like him despite disagreeing with him) who conitnuously misstrust the West and blame all and sundry on the United States. Anything the US does is bad or evil- well if this was the case then as a matter of principle you should not be living there. These people have sold out I'm afriad.  

happy new..........

pendar I'm with you 100%!!

BUT  personally MOI have not felt a pinch of what you'd gone through back then.

from 1979  till present I've lost my child hood home ,my Youngest Brother,my 1.5 yrs old niece and 11 yrs old nephew thanks to your Brother saddam & Roholgah!

 And having sisters and Brothers as refugee in Brazil,germany,denmark,netherland and my own varagh khordeh destiny from when I left Iran at 19 to finish my college till today as as u.s tax payer paid for my house and waiting for my retirment age to go some where in this planet and not you and that charlattane promised jenah Iran.

pho.... with the nonsences.

Maziar

Simorgh; BacheShirazi

Dear friends: I want to show the other side of both arguments.

• There is nothing inconsistent about living in America and opposing war. One may trust America as a citizen and oppose intervention in Iran. I know plenty of patriotic Americans who think intervention is bad for America.
• On the other hand  situation in Iran is not static. America may have had other reasons to hold off toppling IRI until the right time. Just because they did not do it does not mean they will not.

Many people say "for the past 33 years ....". But the past 33 years were not static. There was an 8 years war. A period when it seemed like reform may be possible. And the post 2009 full repression. Things change; both for Iran and America. That means priorities change. America does what it government perceives its interest. Meanwhile nature of Iran is changing. 33 years ago people were filled with revolutionary fervor. Now a new generation is sick of it and got different priorities.

You should never predict future to be a repeat of the past. If that was so we would still have Ancient Persia! Things are in flux and the only guarantee is change in America and Iran. 

simorgh

Finally, if you are so opposed to America then you would not have
entrusted your future and that of your family to live there. Its
like.the sheep submitting to the wolf or the young victim submitting to
the rapist.

I don't live in America, so no. 

  However, any ground offensive must be supported by support of an airforce. Ask the rebels fighting Colonel Gaddafi

It's not a one size fits all situation. What happened in Libya is essentialy impossible to replicate in Iran. Libya is a desert with a few cities linked together by very long roads.  The fighting took place on these roads in between cities.You can't do this in Iran, sinse the fighting is within the big cities.

And please don't say strategic strikes on Iranian army facilities like in the other article. If America could do it so easily they would have by now.  Iran is probably going to get a nuclear bomb, if America could do some strategic strikes and topple the regime this would have happened years ago. 

Bsche Shirazi

You imply that I support carpet bombimg of Iran which means you have not read my posts as carefully as you claim to. I am in favour in a mobilised national resistance movdment as in 2009 or a sustained counter terrorist campaign against key figures in the Basij, Sepah and Revolutionary Guard factions. A policy of target assassinations can be very effective in the long run. However, any ground offensive must be supported by support of an airforce. Ask the rebels fighting Colonel Gaddafi or the Kurdish resistance and Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq who were fighting Saddam Hussein. Its not that I am particularly partial to the Americans doing this ut unless you can give me a name of an Iranian millionaire who is willing to put up the money or the hardwarethen we have no other choice.
Finally, if you are so opposed to America then you would not have entrusted your future and that of your family to live there. Its like.the sheep submitting to the wolf or the young victim submitting to the rapist.

simorgh

If you don't want to know then don't ask. If you haven't seen these nune
nerkhre ruz khors who shouted "marg bar shah" and jumped ship when
their revolution went tits up then come to Paris, London and Berne for a
good eye opener. I have nothing but contempt for these people.

I'm not saying these type of people do not exist. I just don't agree with you when you try and imply that most people in the revolution where like that. Because whenever some one is anti war you start talking about how they left Iran and now don't want war because they support the Islamic republic. As if people inside Iran just can't wait for America to bomb them. As if everyone who brought Khomeini to power is in America now and the poor 75 million left in Iran are the people who had no part in it and the sons and daughters of those innocent people.

Most people from the revolution still live in Iran, and most of them don't want America invading them. It's just the facts.

Amir Parviz

I honestly do not have a problem with people disliking a Shah. That is their prerogative. I am not the Thought Police and I may actually share some of their criticism of aspects of the Pahlavi regime. It is healthy to have a debate so that any mistakes can be avoided in the future.
Any problem pre 1979 - Blame the Shah if you wan. Call the Shah a bastard if you want.
Any problem post 1979 - That is the problem of the revilutionaries and the Ayhatollah's regime. No one stle your Revolution. You gave it away from sheer incompetence, and poor.judgement. You asked.the Shah to leave and thats what you got. The rest was down to.you.

Bache Shirazi

If you don't want to know then don't ask. If you haven't seen these nune nerkhre ruz khors who shouted "marg bar shah" and jumped ship when their revolution went tits up then come to Paris, London and Berne for a good eye opener. I have nothing but contempt for these people.
They are entitled to loathe the Shah if they wish but the failure of the revolution lies squarely on their own shoulders. The Shah is dead and instead of uniting to sort out the common enemy of Iran they are still stuck in a time warp blam Shaing all the ills of their country including the revolution which they instigated and the catastrophe which fell on their country. People like Roozbeh Gilani- is not an admirer of the Shah but unlike the Pendar types they are focused on the future and do not relentlesly hark on about the Shah for the current state of the country. That is the fault of the Mullahs and no one esle.

HTG's mistake

"six months from 17 Sharivar to 22 Bahman that led to demise of monarchy" Hooshang Tarreh Gol

NO, it did take six months to demise monarchy. It started over 100 years ago when group of people along with ayatollahs gathered in the front Majlis shouting "Mashroteh nemekhaheem.  Deen Mobeen khaheem". Means we don't want constitutional monarch, we want Islamic state.

  It didn't start from 17 Sharivar. It started long time ago when Ayatollah Modares became Islamic icon against monarchy. His challenge with Reza Khan was basically sparked the flame for demise of monarchy back then. Mullahs have always wanted to take power in Iran since then. They were always talked about Islamic government in mosques as I was growing up. I heard with my own ear they were talking about Islamic government long before 17 shahrivar. Seems our friends have forgotten Modares's famous statement when he was challenging Reza Shah the Great. "our religion is the same as our politic and our politic is the same as our religion" Famous comment of Ayatollah Hadi Modares. Isn't this statement the same as mullahs were repeating for last 32 years? Isn't the same thing that led people come to conclusion of separation of state and religion and asking for secularism?

GOAL : Re-establishing monarchy.

Amir Parviz

"Do you think we can go from a dictatorship to a democratic system straight away?  Do you think Iranians will have the opportunuity to have such a patriotic leader to help them create a middle class or democratic institution? And what is it with these has been angolabi's not attacking the IRI but going after the real opposition to the IRI with the largest base in Iran?"

Clearly, if the various elements of our society that are opposed to Islamic Dictatorship, and share the concern regarding the potentially ruinous path it is charting for Iran and Iranians, demonstrate themselves incapable of holding rational discourse with a focus on solving the shared problem, then these elements have no right to meddle in the Iranian situation as they lack the requisite character necessary for assuming such responsibilities.

Shirin Tabibzadeh Thank You.

You are an understanding and patriotic Iranian, thank god Iran has people like you. Few understand my deep anger towards USA/UK/France militaristic, neo-colonial policies.  Those Iranians and others that label HIM a dictator, corrupt, unreasonably repressive are so disingenuous and filthy in their manipulations. 

Thanks for sharing. You are like One light that will shine on through the darkness and light many others.  You Made my day.

Joubin I agree with most of your points entirely, questions?????

On your last part.... Given the focus of Shah on creation of a middle class and the natural
affinity of that class with national democratic sentiments, the
opportunity to forge a synergetic alliance between non-alien elements of
our society -- that is everyone except the left wingers and islamists
-- existed and could have been able to chart a different historic
course.  

Let us resolve not to repeat that mistake should the opportunity arises again"

Do you think we can go from a dictatorship to a democratic system straight away?  Do you think Iranians will have the opportunuity to have such a patriotic leader to help them create a middle class or democratic institution? And what is it with these has been angolabi's not attacking the IRI but going after the real opposition to the IRI with the largest base in Iran?

God bless his soul

Arj

Shah Abbas created this mess, not Mohammad Reza Shah.  That is the historic fact.  It were the Safavis that devised a power sharing scheme with the clerics and then implemented it. The Pahlavis had to deal with the cards given to them. Certainly there were attempts (from various quarters e.g. the late Kasravi) to challenge and dismantle this bifurcated system; and we all know the history around this, do we not?

"Dictators in Moslim-majority countries such as Iran, create a strong religious alternative to political parties by their despotic rules that not only does not tolerate any political discourse, but it eliminates all political options for people to share power (or at least express themselves) except through religious institutions! "

Let's focus on our own problems and not drag the Arabs into this.

imo (possibly wrong!): 

The problem in part was that the alternatives that the non-religious intellectual classes provided -- excluding the democratic national wing -- were hardly appealing to the religious set.  You and I may or may not agree with the mazhabee mindset, but it is a fact that a sub-set of our society thinks that way and that fact has nothing to do with Shah x, y, or z.  

And the left wing might as well had landed from Mars: their imported ideological and internationalist views where anathema to everybody else in our society. Iranians would not have "voted" a socialist or marxist government to power, that should be clear.  

In fact, the only way to do that was to sugar coat the damn thing with a "religious" veneer ala Shariati, which is exactly what we got.

The error was the decision to not allow the national democratic groups to have a viable voice in the political process -- fair to say that was a side effect of the '53 affair?

Given the focus of Shah on creation of a middle class and the natural affinity of that class with national democratic sentiments, the opportunity to forge a synergetic alliance between non-alien elements of our society -- that is everyone except the left wingers and islamists -- existed and could have been able to chart a different historic course.  

Let us resolve not to repeat that mistake should the opportunity arises again ... 

G. Rahmanian Kudos

Well said, the real opposition to the mullahs gets attacked by the ones who's actions brought the mullahs to power and yet we don't see 1/10th the critical nature against the mullahs as we do against the pahlavi's that is really something to think about.

Simorgh

He says he hasn't been back to Iran and
given the amount of.time he is on this site hr would need a big filter
shekan to access this site in Iran.
Pendar Jan is the same as Marjan Satrapi. Her miserable family of
intellectual anti-American Marxist Middle Class family participated in
the revolutiin and her country of choice: The decadent West.

I don't care what Pendar was doing in 1979 and what he is doing now.  The fact is that you consistantly try and imply two things:

1) Everyone or atleast the majority of people who revolted against the shah are currently living outside of Iran

 This is false. If you want to use Pendar as an example and apply it to everyone I can just use my uncle, someone who was in the revolution and is currently still living in Iran and apply his situation to all Iranians. Most Iranians who took part in the Iranian revolution are still right there in Iran. Stop acting like the population that currently lives in Iran are victims of some Iranians who messed Iran up and left.Stop acting like they had nothing to do with it .Most of the revolutionaries are still in Iran. 

2) You think that only the evil Iranians who got rid of the Shah and now live in the west don't want a war in Iran

Iranians inside Iran don't want someone to bomb the hell out of them. 

The Shah Is Not With Us!

The Shah Is Not With Us, Anymore. And the "Pahlavi bunch" have paid their dues, so to speak. Isn't it a shame that we NEVER hear or see anything remotely critical of the regime by the bunch which attacks the real opposition day in and day out?

Simorgh5555 point is based this idea

If you were supportive of the revolution against the shah and today you are not pro the shah, the monarchy and pahlavi, how dare you speak out while enjoying living in freedom against him, you should be in Iran living with the consequences of your creation, it is hypocritical to be living in the west after the revolution which you supported and as a result of your activities now 75 million people have to suffer under, unless of course you are a monarchist and did not betray the shah.

The problem with that line of thinking is that as a result of their mistake which was huge and they will never own up to, but point figures at the late shah yet again, today iran is living under tyranny where people are murdered by the state in mass graves, so it has a real dictatorship, not like the time of the late Shah, where Iran was progressing and freedom was great, where the only problem that existed was people were free to lie amongst each other that the shah is a dictator, crook, repressive and hang themselves and others with all the freedom that did exist.  I want the regime to go like Simorgh5555, I just don't want many innocent people to die as well and then only to end up with some other group of mullahs. 

What I mean is the angolab screwing up as much as it did, I can understand why people would be motivated to be hypocrits and continue being the liars they were before the angolab, always blaming th shah and never looking at where Iranians were at or their history that brought iranians to that place. Shah did a lot of good, far more than even 1,000,000 liars could destroy.

Bache Shirazi- Ask Pendar

He says he hasn't been back to Iran and given the amount of.time he is on this site hr would need a big filter shekan to access this site in Iran.
Pendar Jan is the same as Marjan Satrapi. Her miserable family of intellectual anti-American Marxist Middle Class family participated in the revolutiin and her country of choice: The decadent West.

Culpability of megalomaniacal dictators!

Dictators in Moslim-majority countries such as Iran, create a strong religious alternative to political parties by their despotic rules that not only does not tolerate any political discourse, but it eliminates all political options for people to share power (or at least express themselves) except through religious institutions! Moreover, since Islamic institutions are well organized (even under dictatorships) through mosques and various other nuclei such as Quran study circles (even with their own financial institutions such as Gharzolhasaneh), they're propped and poised by the despotic system to fill the political vaccum created by the downfall of the dictator!

We have witnessed that in Egypt and Libya, and exprienced it first hand in Iran! Who knows where things can go in Egypt or Libya with Islamist Ikhwan Moslemin in charge, but one thing is for sure that there would be not much love lost for their dictators (Ghddafi and Mobarak)! However, instead of holding our own megalomaniac, "ariamehr" dictator (Shah) responsible for creating such a mess, Shahollahis keep blaming our people for not being gracious enough to appreciate their dictator for leaving the country in shambles upon his big escape!

Yeah, keep blaming the people and denying HIM's culpability! That would surely bring back monarchy out of its grave!!!

This is much better

" It never allowed a fledgling entrepreneurial spirit to flourish. In the judicial sector, his dirty, corrupt and infamous sister, Ashraf, acted as the highest court. In the political sector, the schizophrenic Shah acted with an iron fist."

Minus the name calling, this is much better.  Blog it and we can all discuss the matter rationally.  

Clearly Shah did help dig his/our own grave -- that is beyond dispute. What is disputed is whether his actions alone are sufficient to explain our current situation, and what is challenged is the massive propaganda effort to paint his reign as some sort of cruel tyranny.  Specifically, warts and all, he was not a tyrant and he was not cruel and it is bizarre to claim his reign "destroyed 25 centuries of tradition".

What I would be interested in is a discussion that would lay out alternatives with specific focus on the contemporary developmental state of the Iranian society.  Focus should be on 60's - mid '70s, when he was in fact acting as a "leader", but it would be necessary to also consider the general conditions of Iranian society in 20th century.

We can not learn from the past unless we fully understand what happened.  You mentioned "remedies" before.  I do not have a specific end solution in mind; in my mind what is broken is the process of discourse among Iranians.  My proposed remedy is to first address that structural issue, and then we can all sit down and think this problem through.

Simorgh

 It reminds you of the home you sold to the dogs and forced yourself into
exile while condemning your Iranians to the screw up you made with your
own hand.

Why does Simorgh always pretend that everyone who was in the revolution has now left Iran and is relaxing in the west? Every post I have seen of his he does this .Most of the people who took part in the Iranian revolution are still in Iran. You try and paint this  picture of a group of greedy Iranians overthrowing the Shah and swiftly leaving to the west the day after. You have this fantasy that all these people oppose war because they like the Islamic republic while they live in the west.This guy seriously acts like the people living in Iran right now had no part in the revolution. 

The majority of people in the revolution are still in Iran, and they  don't support you wanting America to go bomb the hell out of them. Your posts are so ridiculous. 

As an Iranian, I don't

As an Iranian, I don't celebrate the Gregorian new year thing........I use it for my tax purposes only...........

My heart bleeds for you Pendar Jan. Just like a good Iranian you wait until the Spring Equinox until you celebrate your New Year. It reminds you of the home you sold to the dogs and forced yourself into exile while condemning your Iranians to the screw up you made with your own hand. After the failure of your revolution did you ever manage to suceed in anything ever again?

"happy new Tax Year"

Historic fact can't be subject to proverbial situations..........You, the Pahlavist bunch, are allowed to amuse yourselves with all kinds of theories for the rest of your lives.............while the reality of how the Pahlavi dynasty destroyed  25 centuries of tradition in our homeland remains vividly clear. The dictator Shah suffocated the nation under his monopoly of political, judicial, and economic life. Despite the common belief among some people, the Shah was not in favor of a free market in its truest sense; the Royal Court was one of the instruments of economic suffocation. It never allowed a fledgling entrepreneurial spirit to flourish. In the judicial sector, his dirty, corrupt and infamous sister, Ashraf, acted as the highest court. In the political sector, the schizophrenic Shah acted with an iron fist. If the creation  of the Resurrection Party doesn't help you understand that concept now, I doubt that you will ever understand it.

None have yet accounted for all those who DIDN'T vote for IR or

didn't vote at all.

Other than Kurdestan, there were mass boycott in most non-shia localities. There were also many other communities highly suspecious or out right hostile to Shai clergy from day one. Only because khomeini shoved through an election that means everyone in the country accepted it, with no challenge?

Only because you'vwe never seen anyone voting against IR, that means none existed, right? Wrong.

You people are so lost in your world of hatered and fantasies, this is just a waste of time.

2012

"As an Iranian, I don't celebrate the Gregorian new year thing"

Good for you.  That is your personal choice but has nothing to do with being an "Iranian".  

We Persians are a cosmopolitan tribe -- always have been -- and the clear minded among us are not hung up on artificial constructs.  The fact is that some us are now members of (nominally) Christian countries, and we celebrate the change of cycle (which is the Iranian cosmic thought) and of course are keenly aware that these "western" celebrations are not but the latest manifestation of our very own Yalda, etc.  

"you guys after more than three decades fail to accept his historic and detrimental wrongs "

What "guys" are you talking about?  Have you and I ever had a discussion regarding the errors and shortcomings of the Pahlavi reign?

"while you claim you have the best remedy for today's ill"

Point out where and when I have given a "remedy".  They way I see it, we're in the proverbial situation where a fool threw a stone in a well and has stumped all the wise. 

"avatarology(?)" You picked it buddy, and I'm merely pointing out it doesn't fit your output.  Such thin skin.

And happy new Tax Year! 

Pendar not you too! Pahlavi & Monarchy Hater I mean.

"As far as your desperate justification for the Shah's dictatorial regime goes" for the love of god, can you give me a single case where shah used absolute power, broke the law in his own personal favor using absolute power or acted outside his constitutionally given powers?  He was a law abidding King, not a dictator if you know the difference.  I think you are hoping that the people of Iran will all stay manipulated and divided like they were during the Angolab of 79.  My hallucination is that they will not remain manipulated for much longer and will seek monarchy for all the benefits they and our culture received from it.