HUMAN COST

Programmer Craig

"by putting words into my mouth"

what most people want to put in your mouth are not words Programmer craig.

Programmer Craig

Senior,

You either do not have a life or really type fast. I see your response on practically all subjects. Anyways, what exactly are your issues. What I said was very much to the point. With regards to "evil Americans" well dude they are doing a pretty good job of it whether Europeans are involved or not. time to take responsibility for your actions. Europeans did not attack Iraq or Afghanistan, US did. You are just like some other morons I see here. Always looking to say there are more evils out there and not just US. Well, fix your problems first and have the right foriegn policy and then we'll talk Europe. Craig are you a certified moron or just faking it very professionally?

Troneg

It is your choice to support the war for your country’s interest but
don’t say it is for “helping” or “making free” people in Irak. It is an
insult to our intelligence.

I've never said any such thing, anywhere. Let alone in this thread. It is you who insult my intelligence, by putting words into my mouth and then criticizing me for thinsg I never said. Not nice, man.

Programmer Craig

I don’t know if I should consider « Elitist » like a kind of personal attack or a compliment! I prefer smart people how don’t want abuse and hurt people. 

Indeed US helped Europe as France helped US to become independent. Statute of Liberty is a French gift to remind it.

 It is your choice to support the war for your country’s interest but don’t say it is for “helping” or “making free” people in Irak. It is an insult to our intelligence. 

Troneg

Spain had major terror attack and after an election as opposition was
against war (even before terror attack) they stop their opertions.

OK, your interpretation of that is different from mine, but it doens't matter.

Spain didn't fight in World War II. Spain was "neutral" but undre German domination. So your "we bacame civilized because of the carnage of World War II" argument doesn't apply to Spain.

Because the 2 world wars, Europeans people pushed their govenrments
to reduce their wars action.

But only the "democracies" in Europe. Is that correct? Apparrently, war doesn't effect people in non-democracies, right?

In Vietnam they left their place to US and
in Algeria they stopped because public opinion and gave independance to
other countries (Tunisie and Marocco). It was about 40 years ago.

I thought it had more to do with getting your asses kicked, myself :D

When I speak about Europe, I mean democratic countries (West
Europe)

So you are an elitist? You think you are fundamentally better than your neighbors who lived on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain?

How did some countries manage to emerge from World War II democratic, and others didn't? Was it due to your own efforts? Britain can make that claim. No other nation in Europe can.

as well people says America, they mean north America.

When people say America, they mean "The United States of America". They don't mean North America.

To programmer craig

I live in France and proud of it.

Misinformation doesn't come from me.

Spain had major terror attack and after an election as opposition was against war (even before terror attack) they stop their opertions.

Because the 2 world wars, Europeans people pushed their govenrments to reduce their wars action. In Vietnam they left their place to US and in Algeria they stopped because public opinion and gave independance to other countries (Tunisie and Marocco). It was about 40 years ago.

When I speak about Europe, I mean democratic countries (West Europe) as well people says America, they mean north America. Russia and Balcan has still dictatorship governments. Still I'm speaking about people and not government.

For quotation, If nobody told it,I'd be more happy to assume it. I looked for some other quotations. here there is one which you could agree ;-)  //www.quotationspage.com/quote/1115.html

Visually impressive

This is visually impressive, and an effective way to put into perspective, the realities of a war. Normally, we do not get to visualize the sheer numbers of dead, and now thanks to this pictorial, we can contemplate, just using these US soldiers, how many people have been affected by this unnecessary war. I don't think motives or conspiracy theories have any value to either the families or anti war protesters. That is only conjecture by people passionately trying to justify their positions. I think we lose sight of the real issue at hand. What is plain, evident and above all obvious, is that for whatever reason, for whatever motive, for whoever's agenda, war is a very sad, and illogically unnecessary thing. That is what I think about, when I see these pictures. Thanks for reminding us!

don'thaveacow

Not as far as the Oil companies, Neo-cons, international corporations, Bushees, cheneys and some other bastards are concerned.

How much would Europeans care about the middle-east if there was no oil there? There's more than one way to get yourself some nice oil deals, buddy. The Europeans do it by playing themselves off as the spoiler to the Evil Americans. That isn't going to work for much longer. China does a better job of that and has growing energy needs. Russia is playing hardball with Europe and is using oil and natural gas to extort. Lets see what European attituides are a few years from now.

Troneg

Since the 2 World Wars Eurpeans are more moderate and avoid starting
wars.

World War I was 100 years ago, dude. World War II was 65 years ago.

Also, last tiem I checked, the Balkans were in Europe, no?

What about France and Britain, and their wars since WW II? Indochine, Falklands, etc? They don't count?

Iran was involved ina major war with Iraq which killed an astonishing number of Iranians just 20 years ago, and Iran doesn't seem to hesitate to go to war?

The Russians lost more people in World War II tahn anyone else. They've never been slow to go to war, have they?

Why do Europeans keep saying this? If you say it enough, does that make it true?

Because they know that the "Colateral dammage" are not only some
pictures in CNN. US people have never touched the war in their home
land !

We haven't? That's strange... I could have sworn that this country was born of revolution, and that the bloodiest war we ever fought in was our own civil war.

What country do you live in, Troneg? Lets compare histories.

As somebody said : A War is always declared by criminals and done by young innocent people.

And who said that? You? :D

Sorry, man... I don't know if your opinions have merit or not, but you are slinging aropund a lot of misinformation.

PS-Spain didn't jump ship after the elections. Spain jumped ship after suffering a major terror attack for helping in Iraq. 

To Kamangir

I didn' tell European GOVERNMENTs. European People were and are against this war and many countries like France didn't follow Bush and Spain turned back after election. Even in UK, Blair became very unpopulare and he left the place sooner as he should.

I agree with you that Eurpean Governments are not angels and they want to have middle east's oil. It is not new but it is more about political manoeuvres and not direct WAR this time BUSH went too FAR. A war based on false fact.

Since the 2 World Wars Eurpeans are more moderate and avoid starting wars. Because they know that the "Colateral dammage" are not only some pictures in CNN. US people have never touched the war in their home land !

As somebody said : A War is always declared by criminals and done by young innocent people.

Thanks MASTER Shalom

Thanks for the info, although a little correction is needed here:

a) Lord Moses ma'reke giri mikoneh (cane and ejdeha) ! So a ma'rekeh gir can't rule the world .

b) Lord Jesus naneh man gharibam baazi dar miaareh ! If he could rise the dead he would prevent his own death! "sorry to burst your bubble" .

c) for your info "mikh raast mikone" translates to "he straightens bent nails not errect them).

Now you can go to bed sonny!

The hierarchy of the Prophets is as follows:

Son, I hope the following explanation is adequate for you. Here we go,

a) Lord Moses. He rules the world.
b) Lord Jesus. He raises the dead.
c) Muhammad. He erects nails and brings water (Meekh Raast Meekoneh and Aabb Meyareh) for the former two!? if you know what I mean!

Amen and praise Lord Moses!

Shalom ?

Now that you promoted Moses to level of LORD ! please enlighten us .

Is he the only LORD ? or he shares this title with Jesus ?along with  others ?How about Mohammad ?give him a title too while you're at it !..................LOL

The next war is

the one John McCain will wage against the Islamic Republic of Barbarics.

May Lord Moses lead John McCain to victory.

Are wars unnecessary?

Not as far as the Oil companies, Neo-cons, international corporations, Bushees, cheneys and some other bastards are concerned. Wars shape the foreign policy of super powers. It always has. What can be different now is to educate as many as you know. Not to point them in any one direction but to share the facts and then through grass roots efforts go after all those responsible to death and destruction. Why would George Shrub (Bush)try to pass a law to give him and his cronies immunity against prosecution for WAR CRIMES? Why aren't there more people who are MAD AS HELL AND THEY CANNOT TAKE IT ANY MORE when faced with such atrocities? Why do we allow the current US regime use fear to mentally casterate the masses and plunge this country into the worst economic disaster she has ever been in? It is done through ignorance, lack of education, being fed garbage information continually (Just check the crap on your TV), Talk about the American dream and then cleverly make it a nightmare for most. And while we are busy with the wars and conflicts, we are being robbed. Just like pickpockets in a circus show. Sad, but there is hope. I do believe that there are many more descent people than not.

Bravo Kamangir

It certainly is hard to believe that all these super smart people behind the current regime were simply too stupid, too unprepared or too ineffective to let the war get out of control like this.

My guess is that this is in fact the desired outcome for those who benefit from it, and the trail is increasingly clear.

See the video posted here, CNN's Cafferty File! Pretty mainstream exposure of blatant corruption.

//iranian.com/main/singlepage/2008/bush-p...

We HAVE to talk about it!

Unfortunate

This is unfortunate. Brings tears to eyes. About the comments, I tend to agree more with Q. Hope the war ends soon and my friends come home.

JJ: Get pictures of Palestinian cemeteries, full of millions ...

Get pictures of Palestinian cemeteries full of millions of dead palestinains who dies by the savages of our time. Put those pictures next to the cemetery of American soldiers'. Then tell me who is the real WAR CRIMINAL and ANT-HUMAN. I think you know the answer!

Well planned fakery!

For those who think that the 9/11 event was 'exploited' and led to what happened in Iraq, you should bear in mind that 9/11 was an inside job, false-flag operation well designed in advance. Please check this site and once there, scroll down to see the faces and names of those who are questioning the official strory of 9/11. These are respectable American citizens with serious jobs that have valid reasons to question what really took place on that sad day:

//patriotsquestion911.com/

I've noticed we Iranians are really reluctant to even discuss this issue. But, many Americans are not and are brave enough to seriously question the official version of what happened that day.

Kamangir

on Exploitation

Craig, you have a point.

but this "exploitation" as you call it, would not be happening had the warmongers not "exploited" the 9/11 tragedy and facilitated all these deaths and destruction.

You see, exploitation begets exploitation. Even so, this is not nearly comparable to what Bush and Cheney did. They not only used the 9/11 deaths to get what they want, but the exploited LIVING soldiers in order to hand no-bid military contracts to their cronies like Halibuton, Bechtel and Blackwater who never delivered on the goods.

How many soldiers died because they did not get proper armor and kevlar vests? How many soldiers were short-changed because the Pentagon money was being sent on private mercenaries? How many died and how much tax-payer money squandered because of neocon adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan?

If you REALLY care about exploiting the dead, don't waste your time with someone's backyard art project. This is protected by free speech and is not harming anybody.

Go after the REAL exploitation which continues to this day.

To: Troneg

Dear Troneg

Do you really believe that all European governments were really against this war? Even if they were, was it because of the poor Iraqis? Or because the US plan to inavade Iraq was to cut the EU its main future source of energy. I do agree with you in saying that the this was a necessary action to keep the American economy on its feet, however; this has just started. Those who planned the invasion of Iraq knew well, that the aftermath would create hell in that country, with real posiibilities of desintegration (their main purpose)

The main source of economy and life as we know it (oil) is running out. This has just started and won't go away in our lifetime. Their other target is the Iranian khuzestan, they have the long run possibility of invading it, they are working on the future desintegration of Iran as well and by saying 'they' I mean the hidden hands who brought the IRI to power and the same hands that will remove it from power. Call the Bilderbergers, Illuminati or Framasons. We should accept this, that the jackasses of Bush, Sarkozy and Blair and others are not and cannot be the ones behind the events around the world. The hidden governments and powers are planning everything well in advance. Please note that if the US economy collapses, this will affect the entire world, specially the EU. Therefore, at the end of the day everyone is on the same boat. The US stablishment is a globalized one and it has souch a deep and profound influence on the rest of the world that we should accept its power and influence. Just look at the internet, they halt it tomorrow and the world's economy will collapse. Maybe you should stop bing politically correct or naive by start seeing that 'your' Europe is part of the game. Their protests against the Iraq war, for instance, was a simple show for the masses. Don't be fooled by it.

Kamangir

Troneg

That's said, as american ARE YOU PRO or AGAINST ? it is the democracy BUT Please stop poiticaly correct language.

That's actually NOT the point. The point is the exploitation of AMerican war dead by an anti-war activist to make a political point. If that isn't illegal, it should be. It's disgusting for this person to be claiming he intends this monstrosity to be a "memorial" - those men and women DIED fighting in the wra he opposes. In his opinion, they died in vain. Is that how people in the military see it? Is that how the families of fallen soldiers see it? Undoubtedly not, which is what makes this exploitation of the dead, in the worst possible way. This man can protest the war as much as he wants, but he shouldn't be using US military war dead to do it.

Mistake or Crime

I read in these lines people talk about America, Freedom, Mistake or Unecessary war !

I would tell you people how start this war did intentionnally because US firms need Irakian money and assure american people a confortable life which they cannot more afford!

 So it was a necessary war for feeding americans! and here in Europe we are against it. 

That's said, as american ARE YOU PRO or AGAINST ? it is the democracy BUT Please stop poiticaly correct language.

Unnecessary Wars!

It's very unfortunate that human beings die in wars that were totally unnecessary. In this case thousand of soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians (many children)

We the Iranians paid a heavy price over the imposed war with Iraq and let's hope this will never happen again.

Kamangir

Bruce Bahmani told me about

Bruce Bahmani told me about a memorial for U.S. troops killed in Iraq.
It's on a stretch of private property directly opposite Lafayette metro
station near San Francisco. We finally went to see it on Saturday.
Created by anti-war activist Jeff Heaton

Whoa! Hold on! How is an anti-war protest at the same time a "memorial" to those who died in the war!? This is exploitation, JJ! Nota memorial! It's completely diusgusting foran anti-war activist to exploiting the dead to make a politcal statement that 99% of them would have disagreed with! He's not memorializing those fallen soldiers, he's pissing on them!

Shame on you for promoting this filth on this site.

Dear Concerned,

It is just as easy to make up excuses for a failed policy and a historic mistake conducted by ignorant power-grabbers. All kinds of excuses were made for Vietnam too. It took 15 years before anybody noticed what a terrible mistake that was. Racist excuses (similar to your "Iraqi violent tendencies") are still made to this day about "gooks" and "commies" too. But it was all bullshit.

Nothing was accomplished and millions died.

Maybe you like to be anti-war because it "sounds good" but not all of us.

There are those of us, like myself, who were against the war from the very beginning. One reason was understanding History.

So easy!

It is so easy to be anti-war and anti-American nowadays. But remember, if Iraq had worked out the way they had envisioned, it would have been great for the Iraqis too. One thing that the Americans did not realize was this: The Iraqis' violent tendencies combined with the non-Iraqi foreign fighters's zeal for human blood at any cost was not accounted for. These factors have led to the mess there now. Stil, there are many smart Iraqis who see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, they will prevail. For the rest of us who just like to be anti-war because it sounds good and also because we don't know any better and are simply anti-Bush, I can say: "You have missed the mark."

To Ponderer

Hey Ponderer get life. Apparently, somebody ponded on your head too much that you became Ponderer.

How about stealing Iraqi oil? Taking it out with any counter? Is this also part of freedom crap?!

Freedom is a relative concept! The US troops have kept us

safe and free! Freedom is what allows the likes of you to express their backward, dead, ugly, and irrelevant nonsense here in this forum something that is impossible to even imagine doing in the land and system of the Islamic Republic of Mullahs which pays your jeereh and receives your support!?

Ponderer: can you tell me something?

I know it's popular to keep repeating "they died for our freedom" but can you please explain HOW? How did bombing and invading Iraq make any American more free, can you answer this simple question?

didn't think so.