Capt Ayhab

Copying ideas

from the West is a perfectly fine thing. We copy

• Design for cars from the West
• Design for rockets from North Korea
• Design for ships from the west
• Design for air planes from the west
• Design for submarines from the west
• Design for computer chips.
• Buildign design
• Scientific ideas
• And so on

And we are right to do so. Why bother reinventing the wheel? We should copy political ideas that work. It would be the height of stupidity to close our eyes to other peoples' experiences. It is just wrong headed nationalist pride.

Shah's times

Reason we had social freedom at Shah's times was not the monarchist constitution. As  I remember Shah had absolute power. He chose to give people social freedoms. If he had chosen otherwise he could have easily required the same restrictions as IRI. So if we go back to the old constitution we better go back to the Shah or someone like him. Otherwise the old constitution with a new Shah who is like Khamenei will give us the exact same things as IRI.

The irony is that if instead of Khamenei we had a progressive VF then IRI would not be as repressive. We are exposed to whims of tyrants as long as the constitution allow them.

So if we want protections in the constitution then we better do away with:

• Powerful dictators like a king or a VF. If we do ever have a king it should be like the European ones.
• Official religion. No good will result from an official religion.

Guilt

You don't have it, you didn't experience it, then you can't speak for majority of Iranians.

Guilt

What is this guilt issue? I don't get it. Why should MM or me or anyone feel any guilt. I know I did not support the revolution. I opposed it. I did not vote for the Islamic constitution and like MM was out of Iran at that time. 

Why should MM or I have a guilt historic or not? What are we supposed to have done? From best I can tell both MM and I:

• Did not support the Islamic constitution and did not vote for it.
• Oppose attacks on Iran now or at other times.
• Support a free and democratic Iran.

Why the heck should we free a guilt!  People who supported the revolution and the Islamic constitution should feel some guilt but not those who did not. Just for having been alive in 1978 does not make us guilty. What is this thing we are supposed to have done?

capt

You should not be labeled any of those things if you are expressing yourself, but I would label you as very biased, and some what sympathetic to IR. I would also label you as uninformed when it comes to the US government. Let me give you an example of your bias, and believe me I am very much anti-monarchy, but why would you crap on Reza pahlavi who is absolutely unqualifiied to run a country, as a matter fact, he should not even run a mcdonald's store, but not a criminal? Yet I have seen you write sympathetic posts of the reformers of IR who have blood on their hand including Mr Musavi. Reza is not a criminal, he had nothing to do with his father's crimes.

As for U.S government being broken, I am not sure what you mean, but if you mean the gridlocks, then it shows you have a very superficial knowledge of this government, and its history. I would also call the war on Afghanistan a totally justified war, but Iraq was definitely a war of choice.

MM

As long as there is no confusion, feel free to do whatever you want. Keep me posted about your republican project. I'm sure all these monarchy haters in IC will advance your cause as they massively did so far.

30 years ago, there was a referendum between Islamic republic and monarchic constitution. The issue has not changed a bit since. For 30 years we didn't deal with it and as long as we don't deal with it, IRI stays. Guaranteed.

I thank you for your participation in this discussion. Many read this blog and things got clarified for many.

VPK - benross is back after a good night rest

And, this time, he does not mind addressing names.

benross - do not put a guilt-trip on me

Do not get uptight and cool your temper just because you are running out of rational arguements.  And, Pleeeease, do not put a guilt-trip on me.  I did not participate in the 1979 referendum because I did not like the way it was framed.  I guess my only regret is for the people of Iran who lived under dictatorships in one way or another, and also wishing that some of my loved ones were still with me.  

I already told you how we would frame the circumstances to get rid of dictatorships.  Now, you tell us how you would guarantee that we will go back to the old dictatorship days and Islamic committees. 

If you say you like the old ways, then goooooood luck and there is no give and take.

Dear MM, You can not, by

Dear MM,

You can not, by stating the obvious, simply achieve a political project. I learned from my living in the west much more than you think. Not only about democratic structure of the society but way beyond it, about how to implement it in Iran. Unlike you, I didn't stop at copy catting some written statements in a constitution. I looked at it live, as it was functioning. And I observed how people interact with democratic structure and how they improve it. But I don't talk about these things, because we have not reached an stage where these issues are prevalent in our society. It has to be discussed in front of Iranian people, in total freedom. And we are not there yet. You want assurance that religion and state are separate, I can give you assurance as much as Shapoor Bakhtiar could. Isn't that enough?

You want the assurance that freedom is totally respected? I can give you assurance as much as Shpoor Bakhtiar could. Isn't that enough? And he did it, not necessarily as a monarchist, but as a constitutionalist, within the constitution that existed and is still the only legitimate constitution. What more do you want?

Now, that freedom, based on that constitution, has led the society to a deep crisis, several time in its history, in which the government of Bakhtiar was only the final one. The problem with the constitution is not that it is not giving enough freedom. Something that you might want to rectify in a made-up republican constitution. The problem is within the society to digest a stable democratic process. This issue can not be addressed by writing some clauses of a constitution in bold face. It can only be resolved in an open discussion within society in which, you, with your constitution draft, have something to contribute. But do you have access to a free Iran to share your ideas with people? Do you?

I'm showing you how to get there. With a referendum and reinstating the only legitimate constitution of Iranian history. Your problem is not with my project. You fully understand what it's all about. Your problem is dealing with your historic guilt. Deal with it. 

Going back

to 31 years ago is impossible. For one thing we don't 'have a time machine. If I could I would and by all means I rather have had the Shah or Bakhtiar than Khomeini. I have no guilt since I did not participate in the revolution and did not vote for the IRI. I was opposed to the revolution and was one of those who did not support the revolution from the first day. So I feel quite validated unfortunately. I did not trust Islamists then and I dont trust them now.

It is a different time now. The Shah is gone and RP has not got a very strong following. If we do get the upper hand we may as well go for the Secular Democrary. As for a referundum we better know what is in it before we go that way. Remember that the previous one brought us the hell of Islamic Republic and Khomeini's insanity.

benross - David ET has summarized the abusive parts for you

Dear benross,

The way to shift the power of decision-making from one person to a committee or majlis is to write it down, educate people, have a referendum to give it legitimicy and have the army/police/officials swear allegiance to the people and the constitution instead of the Shah or VF.

BTW, by the time the referendum came about, I was out of there because I saw the writing on the wall.  Here are the sections from your historic constitution that are abusive from the Shah or the clergy respective, as summarized by David ET. 

We can dig up more if you wish.

.................................................

IRAN CONSTITUTIONS: From Islamic Monarchy to Republic! (I & II) 

The previous monrachist constitution was anything but democratic because  :

1- It gave ultimate say to Shah

2- It also gave ultimate say to clergy and in fact has its own shoraye Negahban supreme council of clergy who can veto laws for being against Islam.

etc etc

Some scripts from monarchist constitution :

[ART. 44. The person of the King is exempted from responsibility 

 [ART. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King.]

[ART. 58. No one can attain the rank of Minister unless he be a Muslim by religion,.....

[ART. 71. The Supreme Ministry of Justice and the judicial tribunals are the places officially destined for the redress of public grievances, while judgment in all matters falling within the scope of the Ecclesiastical Law is vested in just mujtahids possessing the necessary qualifications. ]

Oath required from King :

......endeavor to promote the Ja 'farí doctrine of the Church of the Twelve Imáms, and will in all my deeds and actions consider God Most Glorious as present and watching me. I further ask aid from God, from Whom alone aid is derived, and seek help from the holy spirits of the Saints of Islám [Oliyaye Islam] to render service to the advancement of Persia." ]

[ART. I. The official religion of Persia is Islam, according to the orthodox Já'farí doctrine of the Ithna 'Ashariyya (Church of the Twelve Imáms), which faith the Sháh of Persia must profess and promote. ]

…..At no time must any legal enactment of the Sacred National Parliament, established by the favor and assistance of His Holiness the Imám of the Age (may God hasten his glad Advent !), the favor of His Majesty the Sháhinsháh of Islám (may God immortalize his reign!), the care of the Proofs of Islám (may God multiply the like of them !), and the whole people of the Persian nation, be at variance with the sacred principles of Islám or the laws established by His Holiness the Best of Mankind ((on whom and on whose household be the Blessings of God and His Peace!)….

….It is hereby declared that it is for the learned doctors of theology (the 'ulamá)—may God prolong the blessing of their existence!—to determine whether such laws as may be proposed are or are not conformable to the principles of Islám; and it is therefore officially enacted that there shall at all times exist a Committee composed of not less than five mujtahids or other devout theologians, cognizant also of the requirements of the age, [which committee shall be elected] in this manner. The 'ulamá and Proofs of Islám shall present to the National Consultative Assembly the names of twenty of the 'ulamá possessing the attributes mentioned above; and the Members of the National Consultative Assembly shall, either by unanimous acclamation, or by vote, designate five or more of these, according to the exigencies of the time, and recognize these as Members, so that they may carefully discuss and consider all matters proposed in the Assembly, and reject and repudiate, wholly or in part, any such proposal which is at variance with the Sacred Laws of Islám, so that it shall not obtain the title of legality. In such matters the decision of this Ecclesiastical Committee shall be followed and obeyed, and this article shall continue unchanged until the appearance of His Holiness the Proof of the Age (may God hasten his glad Advent !) ….“

ART. 20. All publications, except heretical books and matters hurtful to the perspicuous religion [of Islám] are free, .....

[ART. 27. The powers of the Realm are divided into three categories. First, the legislative power, which is especially concerned with the making or amelioration of laws. This power is derived from His Imperial Majesty, the National Consultative Assembly, and the Senate, of which three sources each has the right to introduce laws, provided that the continuance thereof be dependent on their not being at variance with the standards of the Sharia law, and on their approval by the Members of the two Assemblies, and the Royal ratification. The enacting and approval of laws connected with the revenue and expenditure of the kingdom are, however, specially assigned to the National Consultative Assembly. The explanation and interpretation of the laws are, moreover, amongst the special functions of the above‐ mentioned Assembly. Second, the judicial power, by which is meant the determining of rights. This power belongs exclusively to the Sharia tribunals in matters connected with the Shria law, and to the civil tribunals in matters connected with ordinary law. ]

Hi Mehrdad - benross is set in his thinking

We had similar arguements with benross in a different blog on concepts of separation of church and state as well as the charter of human rights.  After living here in the west for so long (!), benross had a very hard time grasping those prinicples too, and he was telling us that they were impossible to achieve in Iran. 

He just wants everyone to forget what has happened in the last 31 yerars and go back to 1977-1978 years.  I have to agree that would not be bad compared to now, but he must realize that back in those days there were no political freedoms, but plenty of social freedoms, whereas now Iran has neither political freedoms nor social freedoms.  And, people want both.

جمع دوستان طبق

جمع دوستان طبق معمول جمع است!  

شما که جمعتان جمع است، چرا بخاری بر نمی خیزد؟ این گناه من است  یا وجدان گناهکار خودتان؟ به ام‌ام لطفاً توضیح دهید که برای پروژهٔ قانون اساسی‌اش چه فعالیت‌هایی داشته اید و چگونه صدای خود را به داخل کشور رسانده‌اید.

این را می‌گویم زیرا می‌دانم که از بحث کردن در مورد پروژهٔ سیاسی پیشنهادی من آگاهانه طفره خواهید رفت همانگونه که تاکنون رفته‌اید. اما زنگ تفریح به پایان رسیده است. 

Cap: I totally agree and

Cap: I totally agree and think it is a shame that how a few create such division among us by provoking each other to resort to labeling each other or be force to defend a situation that does not exist.

MM: See we have lots more in agreement then otherwise. I totally agree with your comment here.

Mehrdad

So, your answer is to go back to the old system

Yes it is. And of-course to prepare a constituent assembly.

And the laws to safeguard the abuse were there. They were not followed, or followed with different interpretation. Do you really think putting articles in your constitution, typing it with bold face, and underlining it 3 times, will stop individuals to interpret them differently or ignore them totally?!

BTW, which article in the monarchy constitution you didn't like, that prompted you to vote against it in the referendum, and which article in Islamic laws you liked that you voted for it? honest?

You have no way other than putting the whole issue in historical context, and the regrets that followed afterward. There is no point in arguing about this or that article. If you think it is, you are delusional. People are not.

But I'm sure you can gather people who think like you as you did before. It won't amount to anything if you evaluate your progress so far. Even devoted anti-monarchists in this site didn't come to rescue. Because it is based on a sense of self satisfying guilt ridden stubburness that I DID THE RIGHT THING OVERTHROWING THE OLD REGIME. I DON'T FEEL GUILTY.

You had your chance to tell Shpoor Bakhtiar, what you want from the constitution. I'm giving you another one. 

benross - So, your answer is to go back to the old system ......

So, your answer is to go back to the old system without any laws that safeguard against the abuses that provoked the people to rebel, to begin with?  Again, this is like the Islamist IRI saying that; hey look, we have a much better system than Cambodia's PotPol regime, therefore we should stay with IRI. 

All I asked you, before referendum amongst systems, is remove the provisions that gave powers of abuse whether to the clergy or the Shah, and you say; let's go back to the old system, as is.  Sorry, my answer is no, as many others.

ام‌ام محترم،

ام‌ام محترم، اگر بحث بر سر نوشته‌های «سند» بود و نه آن چیزی که از نظر تاریخی نمایندگی می‌کند، این بحث موردی نمی‌داشت. شما اگر در رفراندم بر علیه آن رأی داده‌اید، به هرکاری که مشغولید ادامه دهید. اما لطفاً از جانب مردم سخن نگویید. مردم، تک تک آنها، وضع و حال خود را با عملکرد خود در رفراندم رژیم اسلامی مقایسه می‌کنند و خودشان از کارکرد خودشان نتیجه می‌گیرند. برداشت من این است که اکثریت قاطع آنان چنین نتیجه گرفته اند که فریب خورده‌اند. شما اگر می‌خواهید از آن فریب برای خود اعتبار درست کنید، اختیار خود را دارید. اما مردم به صرف اینکه شما از سوی آنها در مورد نقش تاریخی رفراندم تعبیر و تفسیر می‌کنید به سوی شما نخواهند آمد. آنها خوب می‌دانند که فریب خوده‌اند و هرکس می‌خواهد بر مبنای آن فریب برای خود دکان باز کند بی‌اعتبار می‌شود.

ضمناً جای تعجب است که حتی کسانی که شما برایشان عجولانه تعارف تکه پاره می‌کنید، منجمله همین کاپیتان ویروس زده، اقبال این را نداشته‌اند که فعالانه از قانون اساسی شما هواداری کنند و به دورش جمع شوند. ترجیح داده‌اند که به ایرانیان دات کام بازگردند تا به لجن‌پراکنی های دیرآشنای خود ادامه دهند! 

جناب آقای بن

جناب آقای بن راس،
با اینکه اون سند تاریخی شما بهتر از جمحوری اسلامی است، ولی در حقیقت مردم بر زد آن سند تاریخی به خیابان ریختند.
تا موقعی که آن سند تاریخی شما از آزار روحانیون و شاه در مقابل مردم دفاع نکند آن سند تاریخی شما ارزش کاغذی را دارد که روش چاپ شده است.
لطفئا به مردم بگویید که این دفعه، چطور سند تاریخی شما حق مردم را حفظ خواهد کرد و بعد ....

Captain,

Crapping on Personalities is halal, that's what they are for. So is crapping on Ideas.

yahoo_yabo - Do you know the names of your trojans?

on 3/6 and 3/7, my anti-virus detected two trojan horses and quarantined them, but it did not look like they were from IC site:

h............ below stands for //google to break up the souce and not site the full reference.

h............analytics.com.poaluygbcxu.info/kavs/kav6.php

h............analytics.com.bhurbtwchos.info/kavs/kav6.php

The reason for quarantine was given as JS/exploit.Agent.NBA trojan

بماند برای

بماند برای بعد؟

سی سال است که آن را به «بعد» سپرده‌ایم. ورشکستگی اپوزیسیون رژیم اسلامی در تمام این سی‌سال درهمین منشأ دارد. این را آخوندها بهتر از هرکسی می‌دانند. اما در مورد پایگاه اجتماعی این فرایافت، صرفنظر از اینکه خود شخص پادشاه از طرفداران بسیاری برخوردار است، اما پایگاه اجتماعی واقعی آن در همین عنصر نفی نتیجهٔ رفراندم جمهوری اسلامی (همان فریب اجتماعی که اعتراف به آن را من اساسی می‌دانم) و بازگشت به فرایند دموکراتیکی است که مثلاً دورهٔ شاپور بختیار پیش پای ما گذاشته بود. آن دوره با به رسمیت شناختن قانون اساسی مشروطهٔ پادشاهی مشروعیت تاریخی یافته است.

اما در پاسخ به ام‌ام، راستش من نمی‌دانم چه بگویم. من دارم از قانون اساسی مشروطه پادشاهی ایران صحبت می‌کنم. یک سند تاریخی که در همه‌جا در دسترس است و عصارهٔ  زنده -با تمام معایبش- از یک جنبش تاریخی اجتماعی برای تجدد است. من بر خلاف شما چیزی را از خودم سرهم بندی نکرده‌ام. این سند را یک تبعیدی سرهم بندی نکرده است. این ثمرهٔ تلاش بزرگترین اندیشمندان و مبارزان تاریخ مشروطیت است. آیا واقعاً شما آن را با چرکنویس خودتان مقایسه می‌کنید؟ من وعدهٔ سر خرمن می‌دهم یا شما؟ من وعدهٔ بازگشت به تاریخ تجدد در ایران را می‌دهم. فرایندی که در ادامهٔ خود، در آزادی و در پیشگاه مردم، می‌تواند قانون اساسی جدیدی را تدوین نماید. این وعدهٔ سر خرمن است؟

اما اگر این به اندازهٔ کافی برای شما روشن نیست، این را اضافه می‌کنم که رژیمی که من به شما وعده می‌دهم (نه من، بلکه تاریخ) رژیم مبتنی بر قانون اساسی مشروطهٔ پادشاهی است، و پروژهٔ سیاسی که برای آن قائل هستم تدارک یک مجلس مؤسسان برای تدوین قانون اساسی جدید ایران است. شما هم آنگاه چرکنویس خود را به پیشگاه مردم عرضه کنید.

Trojan for Yaboo

Don't worry, dude

It won't affect humans, your "yabo" side is infected, only.

زمانی که یک قانون اساسی مشروطهٔ پادشاهی داشتیم

تحقیق در ماهیت انقلاب و بحث شیرین چه کسی‌ باید ...ه بخورد بماند
برای وقتی‌ دیگر. این پیشنهاد که بیایید، قانون اساسی‌ مشروطه سلطنتی را
بپذیرید، تا بعدا، سر فرصت، اگر خواستید جمهوریش کنید بر کدام محمل قانونی
و مهمتر از آن پتانسیل اجتماعی استوار است؟

The Pahlavis, all mullahs, and all public figures associated with the Green Movement  must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth/income.

Alert JJ: Trojan Virus on iranian.com

my comp got infected 2 days ago. now avast anti virus confirms iranian.com is unsafe due to presence of trojan horse

And, benross's answer is: Let's have a referendum!

what kind of regime? ........trust me, I will work on it after I am given power.

no thanks.  We went thru that routine in 1979. 

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

ام‌ام محترم

می‌بخشی ام‌ام ولی این راه به جایی نمی‌برد. شاید نان قرض دادن به هر کسی که به رضا پهلوی آشغال می‌پاشد تنها روزنهٔ امید پروژهٔ «جمهوری» بی‌عاقبت شما باشد اما لطفاً آن رازیر شعار فریبندهٔ «اتحاد» پنهان نکنید.

این جماعت از لجن پراکنی بر رضا پهلوی برای خود دکان باز کرده‌اند. دور نرفته‌ام اگر بگویم که پروژهٔ «جمهوری» شما هم، نه بر مبنای یک ارزیابی مستقل و دانشگاهی در مورد آن شکل حکومتی که مناسب ایران است، بلکه بر زمینهٔ همین عقدهٔ قدیمی شکل گرفته است. این عقدهٔ قدیمی اما، هیچ ربطی به دیکتاتوری بودن سنت پادشاهی در ایران ندارد. به این مربوط می‌شود که از قبول گناه در مورد گهی که خورده‌ایم و نظام پادشاهی را در خدمت آخوندها سرنگون کردیم خودداری می‌کنیم. تصادفی نیست که آهنگی هم که از شجریان در مورد «اتحاد» انتخاب کرده‌ای مربوط به زمانی می‌شود که در بزرگداشت انقلاب اسلامی سروده شده بود و مانند شما و همهٔ مردم فریب آخوندها را خورده بود.

اگر این عقده نبود، اگر این انصراف از پذیرش این گناه تاریخی نبود، ترجیح دادن نظام جمهوری بر نظام پادشاهی دموکراتیک یک عقیده بود مانند دیگر عقایدی که می‌تواند وجود داشته باشد و من کمترین حساسیتی به آن ندارم. اما خر نیستم و می‌دانم که در چارچوب کنونی این اولویت تنها برای سرهم بندی کردن حس گناه اجتماعی، سرپوش گذاشتن بر آن، مغلطه بافی از قماش «انقلاب خوب بود ولی منحرف شد» مورد دارد و نه هیچ چیز دیگر.

اشکال ندارد اگر گمان می‌کنید انقلاب خوب بود. اما اگر خوب بود، همان انقلاب اسلامی است که خوب بود و امروز هم سر و مر و گنده بر ایران حاکمیت می‌کند. به رژیم بپیوندید، یا حتی به رفورمیست‌های رژیم بپیوندید و بیش از این آب را گل‌آلود نکنید.

اگر هم سرانجام اعتراف کردیم که اشتباه کردیم، پس بر می‌گردیم سر اول خط. زمانی که یک قانون اساسی مشروطهٔ پادشاهی داشتیم و از آنچه که بود، یا آنطور که به اجرا گذاشته شده بود راضی نبودیم. پس ابتدا آن را به رسمیت می‌شناسیم و سپس در یک فضای آزاد به تغییر و تحول آن، چه جمهوری و چه مشروطه، اقدام خواهیم کرد.

این گفتمان به روشنایی روز است و جایی برای آشغال پراکنی باقی نمی‌گذارد. چه با اتحاد و چه بی اتحاد. 

اتحاد، اتحاد، رمز پیروزیست.

I tend to agree with you cap

Do not know how, but Shajarian said it best in his video song

ایران ای سرای امید

 راه ما، راه حق، راه بهروزیست.
اتحاد، اتحاد، رمز پیروزیست.

Otherwise, your best bet to keep the seat of your pants clean is by the way of poetry on IC, and hope that, even there, the critics are easy on you

I like to crap on Reza Pahlavi

Why? on what ground? about something he said? or just for the heck of it? and if so, doesn't it constitute defamation? it should be illegal in U.S too don't you think?

But I fully understand what you mean. YOU WANT A COMEBACK!

No body. No more room for your crap.

Gee I agree with Capt Ahab...

and that scares me....

I wonder if Fred bothered to read this

I know he's always busy penning the next anti-diplomacy blog, but still. We will never know unless he comes and drops a (smart) stink bomb.