Persian Realm

فرح

خیلیا بیش از چهل سال منتظر این بودن که این چند کلمه ای که رضا پهلوی اینجا در مورد مرحوم مصدق گفته را از یک نفر از خاندان پهلوی بشنَون - بخصوص کسی مثل این آقا رضا ..... !

زیاد دست کم نگیر ... :) !

Do you deny the facts I noted?

.

Undeniable Facts!!!

نقش مصدق در سرکوب دلیران تنگستان و همکاری مصدق با انگلیسیها

نکته قابل ذکر این است متاسفانه بازهم در اغلب عرصه هایی که ذکر شد ، آنکه همراه اشغالگران و استعمارگران بود و به نام ایرانی برعلیه منافع ملت و کشورش حرکت کرد ، دسته ای از به اصطلاح شبه روشنفکران و متجددین بودند که در تاریخ معاصر ما ، عنوان ملی گرا را هم یدک می کشند. بایستی به تاریخ مراجعه کرد و بدون تعصب به مطالعه آن نشست . در تاریخ آمده است ، دلیران تنگستان که با دست تقریبا خالی و بدون پشتیبانی دولت مرکزی در برابر ارتش تا دندان مسلح انگلستان مقاومت می کردند(چون در جنگ مابین تنگستانی ها و انگلیسی ها برای دفاع از خاک ایران ، در کمال حیرت و شگفتی ، دولت مرکزی اعلام بی طرفی کرده بود!!!) اما به درخواست کنسول انگلیس (ماژور هوور) از والی فارس ، دولت مرکزی هم در سرکوب آنها مشارکت ورزید!! شاید موجب تعجب برخی باشد که والی فارس در آن زمان "مصدق السلطنه" یا همان دکتر محمد مصدق بود که خودش در این مورد در مجلس دوره چهاردهم چنین توضیح می دهد:

"...بنده مامورین خوب از انگلستان دیده ام . من مامورین بسیار شریف و وطن دوست از انگلستان دیده ام. من مذاکراتی در شیراز و تهران با اینها دارم . یک روز ماژور هوور ، قنسول انگلیس آمد و به من گفت : ما حکم   داده ایم تنگستانی ها را تنبیه بکنند...گفتم شما پلیس جنوب را مامور تنبیه تنگستان بکنید برمنفوریت آنها افزوده می شود. تنگستانی ها اگر شرارت می کنند ، من تصدیق می کنم . اگر بعضی از آنها راهزنی می کنند ، من تصدیق دارم. اگر آنها را پلیس جنوب تنبیه کند ، آنها جزء شهداء وطن پرست می شوند و من راضی نیستم. ولی اگر من والی هستم ، آنها را تنبیه کنم ، به وظیفه خودم عمل کرده ام و کار صحیحی کرده ام. گفت توضیحات شما ، مرا قانع کرد ، شما کار خودتان را بکنید. من از شما تشکر می کنم. بعد از چند روز من تنگستان را امن کردم و ماژور هوور آمد از من تشکر کرد..."!!

 همکاری مصدق السلطنه با پلیس جنوب و تجهیز قوای دولتی در سرکوبی دلیران تنگستان و دشستان ، سبب شد ، سفارت انگلیس از نخست وزیر جدید بخواهد که مصدق را در سمت والی فارس باقی نگه دارد. عین نامه چنین است :

"... سفارت انگلیس ، 4 نوامبر 1920 میلادی

پس از استعلام از صحت مزاج ، تقدیم ارادت ، زحمت می دهد از قرار تلگرافی که قنسول انگلیس مقیم شیراز مخابره کردند ، آقای مصدق السلطنه از سقوط کابینه قبلی و تشکیل کابینه جدید ، قدری مضطربند که مبادا این کابینه در مواقع لازمه ، همراهی و مساعدت مقتضی از ایشان ننمایند و گویا خیال استعفا دارند . از قرار راپرت هایی که از قنسول انگلیس در شیراز می رسد ، حکومت معظم له در شیراز خیلی رضایت بخش بوده . اگر حضرت اشرف صلاح بدانند ، بد نیست که دوستانه تلگرامی به معزی الیه مخابره فرموده ، خواهش کنید که به حکومت خود باقی بوده و از این خیال منصرف شوند. ایام شوکت مستدام .

مستر نرمان..."

//www.khabaronline.ir/news-68715.aspx

FR

who cares if he belonged to JM, was a landowner or.......

As I said before, none of us were there at the time and we are dabbling on the side issues and forget about why he was a hero, based on the facts.

So, here it is, AGAIN:

------------------------

by MM on Sun Sep 26, 2010 09:49 AM PDT

Mosaddegh was a patriot who was fed up with the way that the Brits were plundering Iranian natural resources, and he did something about it. 

After giving up on negociations, Mosaddegh nationalized Iranian resources, he went to the world court in the Hague, argued & won the case for Iran and paved the way for other countries to follow suit.  For that alone, Mosaddegh will remain an important hero for Iran and all the countries that kicked the Brits and other imperial forces out of their homelands.

Unfortunately, Mosaddegh did not count on the cunning nature of the Brits, the British naval blockade, the resources of the Americans and the two-faced nature of some Iranians at the time.

Leave it be.

period

----------------------------

PS, if you did not delete our comments, who did?

سیاستمدار میهن پرست و آزادیخواه !!

جناب مایک عاکف

مشکل من با مصدق دقیقا همین است که شما فرمودید.

FR

Gentlemen we are missing the main issue.

I am sorry to see that my brief parody in Farsi caused such a stir among you and distanced you from the main subject. I am also sorry to see two of my good friends, Benross and VPK got into an arguemt over this matter. I shall address the issue of Farsi/Arabic at a later time but let us return to the delightful subject of Dr Mossadegh and his Jehadist supporters!

Suffice it to say that Mossadegh was himself a member of the landed aristocracy of Iran (not that I believe there was at any time such thing as Western aristocracy in Iran but that is a separate issue again) and as such he was the guardian of their interest. Just look at some of the appointments in his cabinets and among his advisers, You can't find more notorious tribalists and land owners than Nasser and Khosrow Qashqai (no I don't mean the Nissan model but the tribe). They were both Mossadegh supporters and Khosrow was his special adviser on tribal and land affairs.

And this was just the tip of the iceberg.

BTW, I did not flag anybody's comments and I don't believe in flagging people's comments..

FR

Benross

One last thing: you are a very rude person. You use insults and foul language towards those who otherwise would have been your friend. You sir are no friend of mine and I am ashamed to ever have considered you one. Your association with the Monarchists brings shame on them.

If you want to go on speaking Arabic you do it. No wonder people think we are Arabs. I rather write in honest English than fake Arabized Persian with 80% Arabic in it.

MM

I also thank you for the Persian link you posted. IMHO we should use more Persian and less Arabic.It is very unfortunate that some Iranian poets and scholars equated Arabic with being educated. We need to reverse it.

When I read Farsi full of Arabic all I think of is: pretentious. I do see the reasons behind it. Sure Arabic is the language of Islam. For years the only literate people were the Mollahs. As a part of their education they learned Arabic. That is part of the past now. The Mollahs are now the backwards people. They are the last people I think of when I hear education. Arabic is no longer language of learning. I hope this makes sense to people.

Benross

Given a choice of Arabic or English I pick English. Why:

1) Because more people understand it.

2) Because it was not imposed on my nation. It is a choice.

3) Because it does not pretend to be what it is not. It is honest and makes no pretnce of being Persian.

As for your insult same to you buddy. You are as bad as the IRI types. I did not tell you what to do. I said I rather use English than Arabic or some Arabized bastardization of Persian. I gave my reasons. I stand by them.

You are the one using insults not me. Ran out of arguments? Join Q.

MM

Thanks For That Link :)

The

The most inferiorating fact is that we are forced to communicate in English. Everything else fades in comparison... and expressing your criticism in English is downright insulting.

This is beside the point that nobody has the right to tell anyone how to express oneself. You do your own thing, anybody who liked it will follow. You tell ME what to do, I say mind your own business asshole.

VPK - Varjavand prob. has this document called Parsi-begoo

You can find it at: //www.iranian.be/start/Parsi-Begoo.pdf.  Parsi-begoo PDF document has 22 pages of words that are properly expressed in Farsi.

I guess Farah did not like my and Hoshang's English since those comments were removed, right after hers.

Benross Jan

I am not picking or trying to pick on Farah. I have a good deal of respect for her. I also have the utmost respect for being literate. I just don't equate using Arabic with being literate. For centuries Iranian educated class used Arabic to prove their superior command of language. This is BS to me. It is very possible to express oneself in PERSIAN without so much Arabic. One fine example is Kasravi. I was just reading Varjavand Bonyad and was impressed with how little Arabic he used.

I agree that this Arabic nonsense is what we got taught. It is bullshit of the prime kind. I will at every opportunity bring this up. Because I am sick and tired of having to listen to our people talking an alien language. It makes me sick to apply for a replacement passport and have it called al-mosanna. What are we anyway; time to dump this ****.

ثعلب

بعض الناس هنا الحصول على المرضى ، وينبغي أن تسعى إلى مساعدة فورية

My heart is true as steel.

انقلاب سپید و واگذاری زمینهای کشاورزی به کشاورزان

جناب مسعود خان ممکنه که بفرمایید شما از روی کدوم ماخذ و مدرکی‌ سخن میگید و چه چیزی را میخواهید ثابت کنید؟ سپاسگزار میشم اگر این رو روشن برفرمایید.

دکتر مصدق

دوست عزیز مشکل شما چیه؟ میتونی بگی‌ چه چیز از مصدق تو رو ناراحت میکنه. همه از بیگانه و ایرانی‌ که مشکل مذهبی‌ ندارند از او‌ به عنوان یک سیاستمدار میهن پرست و آزادیخواه نام میبرند.

2) Land Reforms may have

2) Land Reforms may have been a good idea on paper. But the way he did it was the problem. It does not matter how great an idea is. If it is not implemented right then it won't work. This by the way was a very complex matter. Not sure if I can blame anyone for the mess since they did not have the benefit of hindsight.

Fox and ...

Why do Iranians who want to sound literate have to use so much Arabic? Frankly reading this post hurt my eyes and mind. If you want to write in a foreign language then write in English. It is no less Persian and more people will get it.

Speaking Arabic is not a sign of being educated. It is a sign of Arab Zadegi.

داستان روباه و دم خروس

دلائل و مدارک ارائه شده بوسیله اساتید مصدق اللهی ساکن در این سایت من راه بیاد ماجرای روباهی که قسم میخورد خروس ندزدیده در حالیکه دم خروسی که دزدیده بود پیدا بود می‌‌اندازد. وقتی‌ برای اثبات متمایل بودن مصدق به اصلاحات ارضی از نوه ش سند می‌آورند آدم نمیدونه قسم روباه رو باور کنه یا دم خروسو!

FR

فرح

حالا این رضا پهلوی دو کلمه حرف حساب زده ... بزن تو سرش ؟ !! :)

Dear P_J

1) I really don't want to be defending the Shah as I agrree with you over the coup. However I have some insights into the process. In my stay in the USA I have got to know a lot about the coup. The Shah originally did not want toe coup. He was *forced* into it by the Americans. Basically "do it or else". I was not in his mind but guess he saw it happening no matter what. He probably figured: it is going to happen; at least he could help guide it for the better. As it turns out he screwed it up. 

2) Land Reforms may have been a good idea on paper. But the way he did it was the problem. It does not matter how great an idea is. If it is not implemented right then it won't work. This by the way was a very complex matter. Not sure if I can blame anyone for the mess since they did not have the benefit of hindsight.

3) The Shah was not a total lapdog. If he were then we still have the Pahlavi. It was his independence towards the end that cost him the throne.

Once the Shah stood up to the British he ended up deposed just like Dr Mossadegh. The problem was none of our leaders realized what they were up against.

PS,

*) I am sorry for your personal and family loss in the Pahlavi time. Please remember many of us lost during the IRI regime as well. 

Flat denial is not proof!

Jehadist Mossadeghists (officially known as Jebhe Melli)  think that by simply shoutng the reverse of an allegation/accusation/arguemnt they have proven their point!!

Sadly not so. In the absence of any concrete evidence they hide behind other "top", "best" and "highest"   so called (pro JM) scholars and use them as shields.

Why don't they have the guts to come up with a solid rhetorics-free argument instead of trying to cover up Mossadegh's connivances so pathetically.

With supporters like Kazemzadeh, P_J and Makhmali, Mossadegh does not need enemies.

FR

Hello VPK Again!

Again I disagree!   As Masoud explained, in detail, the person in charge was Dr. Arsanjani, Minister of Agriculture, who warned Shah of the imminent disaster if land reform did not materialized, and was fired, due to his unexpected and SUDDEN popularity.

And to your second point; when a leader, any leader sides with a foreign government and takes part in a coup against his own nation, that sets his country and people back years, and the result culminates in still another BLOOD THIRTHTY dictator, like Khomeini, is a TRAITOR in my BOOK and not a patriot!  

Iran in her long glorious DYNAMIC past history has experienced varieties of leaders and governments…the only two times that she has lost her SOVERIGN state whiteout a war, was Shah Sultan Hossein who welcomed Ashraf Afghan and crowned him as king and Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the obedient CIA stooge/lap dog who did EXACTLY the same, and WORST!

I agree with you on the MESS that land reform caused, and the reason was that it was poorly done by people who had little or no knowledge or experience, and could not predict the population shift that occurred….and who do you think should be blamed for that!!   The person in charge!   With all due respect if I were you I would have CHANGED my book to a different one!!!???

Have a good day!

on land reform

Dear VPK,

The land reform is not a communist idea. The Kennedy administration put tremendous pressure on the Shah to implement a land reform. This was not due JFK being communist. His policy in his words was "those who prevent peaceful reforms make violent revolution inevitable" or something along those lines.

Most societies in the world have done land reforms. The fact that the Shah did a very bad job in implementing land reform does not negate the historical necessity of land reform. Initially, the land reform under Minister of Agriculture Arsanjani was very popular. That is why the Shah removed him!!!!! It is bizarre that under the Shah, a person who did a competent job would be removed from his job!!!!! The government should have made better arrangements which would have enabled the farmers to manage their lands.

Yes, the poor planning and management by the Shah soon turned a popular and good policy into disaster, which cause mass rural to urban migrations (and inadequate planning in the cities as well).

Masoud

P_J

I disagree with your views strongly.

1) You may be mixing up land reform and return of lands confiscated by Reza Shah. I am all for the return of confiscated lands. However this is a different matter.  IMHO handing out the land to farmers and removing the landlords turned out to be a disaster. I see the results of it.  I have the history right in front of me. I already explained how it failed. The result was dysfunctional farms without a resources or expertise to run them. The result was a rush of farmers to cities which resulted in a lot of turmoil. 

2) I did not say "out of the good of his heart". The reason were that at the time these communist ideas had a lot of followers. Including Iranian intellectuals. Therefore they got a lot of attention in the government. Add to it the Kennedy pressure and here we are.

3) You are very hateful of the Shah. You point of view seems clouded by something. If you have a personal axe to grind wit the Shah that is fine. However your accusations without any proof are just that: accusation. I am not a monarchist. But I know am not going to just accept any potshot with no proof against the Shah. He had good and bad. He was a patriot; and a dictator. He was not a monster; not in my book.

VPK

To VPK!

I disagree with you about the “Land Reform”.  Land reform was an absolute necessity at the time.  I remember reading when Minister of Agriculture at the time, can’t remember his name, told Shah that unless land ownership is transferred to its lawful owner, it would be taken BACK by FORCE, by peasants! 

US was quite aware and knowledgeable of the strength of the Communist Party of Iran, and were extremely worried.    In 1946 the percent register members of the Toudeh, Communist, party EXCEEDED that of the Soviet Union's!!   So, it was not a volunteer act or act out of the goodness of his heart, goodness that this MONSTER did not have, that he made the land reform, or distribution…had he not done so the Iranian revolution had happened 25-30 years earlier!   By the way, he sold the land to the Iranian government and took the money straight out of the Treasury and ran with it, for the land that did not belong to him or his father, and had been forcefully either STOLEN or Confiscated!      

Great thread, thanks everyone

I am just starting to read the comments on this thread and many are interesting. Like benross 's argument that the fact that MR put "natel-khanlari"; an ex toodehi, in charge of sepahe danesh shows that his heart was n secularism. There are also other good arguments by other commentators on this thread. I have to say that when I look back at MR time, it was a "dooran shookofaee" for literature in Iran and who knows when we will see something like that in future. Credit for this belongs to leftist groups in iran (mainly Toodeh because so many writers and poets of those days were either Toodehi or had strong "garayeshat" to it) and to certain degree to Shah that after 1953, he was not into destroying writers/poets who had leftist ideas. In fact, many of those poets and writers had governmental jobs.

MK Jaan

Thank you for your points.

1) I am not surprised that JM supported land reform. It was the way of most progressive forces.

2) I know about Reza Shah's land grabs. Not good.

3)  I also know aboutt the return of stolen land. I agree it was necessary and not land reformn. Just giving back things to their real owners. I hope to see it happen once IRI goes.

4) Yes USA did pressure the Shah. He gave in.

5) I disagree that land reform was necessary in that form. IMHO it was a mistake and led to social and economic instability.

In summary: If you destroy existing order you better know what you are doing. The Shah and his advisors both Iranian and American had no idea what they were doing. They were both idealistic and oversimplistic.

Benross

I agree that many of the social engineering ideas were from intellectuals. Most of whom had left bent. However I am specifically talking about Eslahate Arzi. In particular the dismantling of local lords. Keeping them would not have meant giving them full regional autonomy. I am not talking about letting them run tiehr own foreign policy. But to run their own internal affairs within reason.

In fact they would have been responsible for their regions to the central government. Get out of line and you are replaced. The problem was getting rid of them and creating a vaccum. This is what allowed the breakdown of order.

Not just social but also economic. The lords were not just sittinng around. There were managing their farms. They provided management role. Without them the farmers lacked both money and channels to run their farms. That is why Shah had to come up with "Taagvoni" coops. 

I don't have to be (am not) a Mossadeghist to see the mistakes. I just want to see how we got here and what were the mistakes. Before long there will be another chance to reshape Iran. We better learn from past mistakes.

VPK

No he wasn't right. He is fantasizing. Every tribe and region leader would have cut a deal with a foreign power to keep his 'territory' under his control. It's not like we didn't have any historic precedent to see that happening. He simply turns a blind eye on the facts and hopes for the best. There would have been no 'Iran' to talk about if it wasn't for Reza Shah. I should note that many 'social engineering' plans during Reza Shah was not from him. They were the ideas of our intellectuals of the time, using his actual power and resolve to implement those plans. Some of them failed, many was successful. The point is that regardless of who could hold actual power on a united country, if intellectuals of the time had a say in policy making, they would have done exactly the same things. Some with success, others with failure. The issue is not the policies, as the Shah himself also has watered down a lot of plans to adjust with those traditional social structures (an ironically blamed for it!). The issue is how a national government could hold the country together. As it is still evident, intellectuals tend to talk a lot, irrespective to actual grounds upon which they intend to implement their ideas!

Some weeks ago Fred posted a link to an article about Naatel Khaanlari, who presided over a good portion of 'Sepaah-e Daanesh' program. This was another social engineering, carried out by a Toodé intellectual who chose serving his country over betraying it. We constantly talk about Pahlavi social engineering plans. We seldom talk about where they were coming from. Mohamad Reza Shah loved to have all our intellectuals joined him to build the country, not having to live with that overwhelming fear of a communist revolution in his country. But this was not meant to be. Nonetheless, I find it outrageously unjust to blame him for giving wings to Islam, as if communists were just innocent bystanders. Mohamad Reza Shah did not assign an akhoond to lead the 'Knowledge Army'. He assigned an ex member of Toodé. It shows where his heart was -secularism, and how the combination of the cold war and reactionary thoughts failed him. Incredibly, most of Mossadeghists who were jailed after removing his government, were released after few months. Many many communists perished. Yet, the loudest mouth was always the 'nationalist' one!

To me, Mossadeghists are simply a reactionary bunch, no different from Khomeini... they never acted differently. I don't even understand what we are arguing about.