فرمان دادم تا .... ذرات تنم خاک ایران شود

Fair

I agree. Although Religion falls in to "Biliefs" catagory but you have good point . It can be revised to:

8. Freedom of Expression, Information, Beliefs, Religion, Media and Assembly.

As for point 7, I think it is important to include groups with religious agenda, or Iran will surely face same dielemas that Turkey, Algeira , ...and Palestinians (Hamas ) have faced or facing. If a party or group believes in government of God versus or in combination with The People, in essance is not secular and if not secular will have its own non-secular agendas when in power , undermining the constitution one way or another.

A political group has RULING agenda's and religious ones can not have their cake and eat it too! They either have to drop the religious agendas or not be included in a secular government (but free to express and assemble).

A secular government should be free for all , but not compromise its principle of secularity or we are wasting time.

We must learn to fall out of the vicious cycle of Royalty and religion and better sooner than later. The past two revolutions of 1906 and 1979 are great examples of this error and compromise by seculars that eventually lead to dictatorship and lot of innocent pain and blood.

Lets not compromise this time...I hope...

Please read articles 8 and 9 that defines the intent in more detail.

Article 8

Secular republic of Iran observes no official religions for the country. Secular in nature, everyone in Iran is treated the same, regardless of their religion or lack of it. All religions within the limits of the law and without limiting or violating the guaranteed individual and human rights within the constitution are free to perform their religious rights, and to act according to their own canon in matters of personal affairs. The individual and human rights as guaranteed by the constitution shall always prevail and take precedence over religious and ideological preferences and beliefs.  

FarParGlisi!

16 - zabaan-e novini benaam-e FarParGlisi az baraaye Farsi daanaan, Parsi daanaan v Englisi daanaan be toodegaan iraandoost ghadim, toodegaan iraandoost nou-paa, v jaafar khaan haay-e az amrikaa bargashteh aamoozesh shavad (or tadrees gardad). 

Farah

Great summary-let's make it viral

Dear David and everybody,

This summary looks great and is small enough to go viral. I had some feedback- while point 8 says freedom of beliefs, I would explicitly add freedom of religion to that, since the anti secular forces will jump on that (and point 7) to incorrectly argue that we want to destroy religion in the country. Whereas we have no such agenda, we want equal rights for all, and no state religion or ideology gets priority over the people. In fact, we already have point6- separation of religion and state, so we don't really need point 7. Or if you want to leave point 7, limit it to exclusion of clergy (not religious organizations, etc.) because this will make it hard for many civic groups in Iran which do have religious identities to be active.

Also, for the viral campaign, I would shy away from the explicit label "secular republic of Iran", which will quickly be taken to be a call for overthrow and excuse for violence. I like more saying "government of Iran" should have these principles, etc. because these then are just a list of demands that our people want, not a call for overthrow. In practice they are the same thing, but one gives more ammunition to the other side than the other.

Also, just a typo- but it is "prisoner of conscience" in point 11.

As far as waffen SS major, thank you ET for responding to him, and Hovakh and Vildemose, even though this person has openly betrayed the Iranian people, it is important to answer the questions he raises, since they will be raised by others as well. And in the future Iran even he will have a place, unless it is provable in a court of law that he has committed crimes against the Iranian people other than speaking against their rights. This is the price we have to pay in a democracy- even Nazis like the self proclaimed major have the right to free speech.

Please let us address these issues, and ship it. Let's go viral, D-Day is near!

-Fair

David, the issue is not emotion or responding to questions

The issue is not getting distracted by garbage. Sargerd is a well known entity with clear objectives, intentions and motives. His foot print is everywhere and self explanatory. Specifically, threads related to this subject from various angles, have been in discussion and he has commented on those as well. So one calls it as one sees it. Those questions and discussions have been addressed and now the question at hand is one paragraph and its verbiage only. Not subversion or treason both of which are his characteristics and distraction from topic of this blog. Indeed you are playing right into his hand by obliging him and using strong and out of context words to characterize responses identifying his objectives and intent.

my "thoughts"

When a question is raised, if it has any virtue I believe it needs to be answered. It is not just the person who asks but so many who will read and if our logics atre strong will stand.

I belive we must put extreme emotions aside and logically practice democracy not only in our "thoughts" and "words" but more importantly in "deeds" and examples we set.

Hova jan: point well-taken.

Hova jan: point well-taken. But sargord needs to be taken to task when he calls us "subversives".

Sargored: By defintion of

Sargored: By defintion of treason, the entire IRGC and Qudos force will be considered treasonous because they are in the service of ommah and ommah building not building IRAN into a prosperous nation. 

Well put vildemose. Although, not sure why you waste time

with sargerd.

Same to you david.

Point of this blog is fine tuning opening one paragraph. Not responding to any idiotic question or comment.

samsamIIII: I loved the

samsamIIII: I loved the translation. We should have both versions available.

Sargord: Treason is to put

Sargord: Treason is to put your dogmatic ideology, before the interest of your nation and its citizens.

In that context, the entire ruling clergy industrial complex and their security apparatus (IRGC) holding on to power in IRI are treasonous. By defintion, the Islamic Revolutionary gurad corp by definition is a treasonous and subversive organization by virtue of being Islamic and not in the service of Iranian nation.

Thank you for allowing us to define treason further in the future Iran. 

Dear Sargord

Many Valid questions. Thanks for going through and detailing your concerns. I am planning to also have a frequently asked questions and answers in the site. There have been so many other great questions in the past year in Iranian.com which I hope someone will compile the Q&A's and then we post on site in both English and Persian. My answers are in italic below. Of course others can give their pro/con views or answers:

11. "No political prisoners"
What are you going to do with person(s) and groups engaged in political subversion or treason?

A: Not sure what you mean by political subversion, if someone has opposing political views as long as s/he does not force it on others or take away rights of others should be free to do so... As for Treason, if for example someone does spying for a foreign country selling sensitive security matters of the nation, then obviously s/he will be tried and if proven true then he will be imprisoned but this is not considered political prisoner, because he is not imprisoned for BELIEFS but for actions contrary to the territorial integrity and independence of the nation.

9. "Justice and Fairness in legislations"
Who exactly decides what is just and fair, and how?

A: The constitution states in detail the rights of people, its principles of human, economic, cultural,rights, equalities etc.  And also refers to international declaration of human rights and two other human rights conventions. The laws of nation and all legislations should comply with those principles

8. "Freedom of Expression and Media"
So media (and assemblies) specifically dedicated to the overthrow of your secular constitution is permitted? And what about 24 hr. programming on TV of sexually indecent material? Anything goes?

A: Yes media and (unarmed) assemblies who oppose secular republic should be permitted. Also if the opposition (e.g.: monarchists) is secular and not religion based they can have political parties platforms as well as representatives in parliament if they obtain enough votes and if they even if gain the 70% vote in parliament, they can ask for amendment to constitution or its change with a referendum to follow. The section about amendment to constitution is not completed yet (will be this month) but it is right of people (if majority) to even change the system, (constitution will still not allow non-secular amendments and changes). That is the point that for example monarchists are missing (which I will write in an article when time allows that once a democratic system is established other seculars such as monarchists can have their parties and constituents and if they believe they have majority they will get majority representatives and then majority vote through referenda to change the system but expecting a free lifetime and generational ticket to a monarchy (especially after the experiences of past regime) or alike when democratic channels and system and media are not in place will lead to corruption and abuses where a system of republic even allows RP to run for president or parliament if he gets enough votes)

Sexually explicit material (as long as they meet the international standards - e.g.: do not promote rape or use underage etc.) can be sold through non-public and private channels (cable, internet etc.). It is the right of seller and buyer and not right of others to control that. They already are readily available via internet anyway!

5. "No official ideologies" So your political system is not established on any conceived political philosophy? Nothing? I submit this is a relatively empty form of constitutional documentation. It's heavy on the "anti" and weaker towards the "pro". (a shared trait of weakness for the green movement, so far, as a whole) Not very compelling, you must admit.

A: Exactly! Government is simply providing freedom and means to free expression, democracy and safety and it is up to the people and not the government to choose political parties and representatives with specific views or ideologies. Government for the first time in Iran history will not be the big brother telling people how to think or what to think or who to praise (monarch, faghih) or what to believe in.

12. "Equal Rights and Opportunity for all."
The way this is written, it appears to extend to all non-citizens as well. Surely, you don't mean that. Is there somewhere other than here that encompasses specific application to citizenry?

A: Chapter III specifies rights of citizens and people of Iran and it also article 38 ads: "Foreign nationals may within the limits of the law take up Iranian citizenship or permanent residency.”
//iransecular.org/III.aspx

10. "Conservation and improvement of environment"
So, such concerns automatically trump any and all economic considerations?

A: The economic matters and decisions therefore must take in to consideration protection of environment for future generations to come and not vice versa.

4. "Full accountability"
So, sensitive state and military secrets are to be granted full public accountability?

A: No! The draft specifies the process (they will be accountable to the representatives of the people) and eventually when possible will be made public too. e.g.: Article 64 : The deliberations of the National Consultative Assembly must be open and full minutes of them made available to the public by radio, television, internet and the official gazette. A closed session may be held in emergency conditions, if it is required for national security, upon the requisition of the President, one of the ministers, or ten members of the Assembly. Legislation passed at a closed session is valid only when approved by three-fourths of the members. After emergency conditions have ceased to exist, the minutes of such closed sessions, together with any legislation approved in them, must be made available to the public.

My, my, so now y'all have me contributing to your "secular constitution." I'm now in over my head. I am a mainstream political moderate. Time for me to turn out...

A: Dear Sargord, it all makes sense because it protects the right of everyone and takes away the rights of no one, then why not come aboard. I truly believe if properly communicated more and more people will support a secular and free republic including those who presently oppose it, mostly because they do not know enough about it. Where else can they guarantee their own right to express their beliefs and know that if they have votes of the people they can be presented?

Finally I more than anyone know that this draft is not perfect and has flaws and need corrections and with constructive reviews and suggestions by yourself and others I hope this living document can improve now and even in many years to come in a future and free Iran.

I've some feedback to

I've some feedback to offer:

11. "No political prisoners"

What are you going to do with person(s) and groups engaged in political subversion or treason?

9. "Justice and Fairness in legislations"

Who exactly decides what is just and fair, and how?

8. "Freedom of Expression and Media"

So media (and assemblies) specifically dedicated to the overthrow of your secular constitution is permitted? And what about 24 hr. programming on TV of sexually indecent material? Anything goes?

5. "No official ideologies"

So your political system is not established on any conceived political philosophy? Nothing? I submit this is a relatively empty form of constitutional documentation. It's heavy on the "anti" and weaker towards the "pro". (a shared trait of weakness for the green movement, so far, as a whole) Not very compelling, you must admit.

12. "Equal Rights and Opportunity for all."

The way this is written, it appears to extend to all non-citizens as well. Surely, you don't mean that. Is there somewhere other than here that encompasses specific application to citizenry?

10. "Conservation and improvement of environment"

So, such concerns automatically trump any and all economic considerations?

4. "full accountability"

So, sensitive state and military secrets are to be granted full public accountability?

My, my, so now y'all have me contributing to your "secular constitution." I'm now in over my head. I am a mainstream political moderate. Time for me to turn out...

How about:

We the people of Iran wish and demand these principles as the pillars of the Secular government of Iran:

Territorial Integrity, Independence, Separation of Religion and State, Freedom of Expression and Information, Gender Equality, Human Rights, Clean Environment. 

That these principles form the framework of our beliefs, vision, mission & purpose that shall guide our government of the people, laws and our elected and appointed representatives. That no person or entity shall govern, legislate or implement laws and agreements inconsistent with the principles:

1. Territorial Integrity, Independence and Sovereignty of Iran.

2. Respect for independence and integrity of other countries and promoting peace with all nations and countries.

3. Government of the People, By the People and For the People.

4. Three Independent Branches of Executive, Legislative and Judiciary of the government with limited terms and full accountability and transparency.

5. No Official Religions and ideologies.

6. Full separation of Religion and State at all levels without any exceptions.

7. Exclusion of clergy, religious groups, parties and organizations from government.

8. Freedom of Expression, Information, Beliefs, Media and Assembly.

9. Justice and fairness in legislations.

10. Implementation of the constitution, just laws and due process of justice.

11. No political prisoners and prisoners of conscious.

12. Equal Rights and Opportunity for all.

13. Gender Equality.

14. Full guarantee and legal protection of all human, political, economic, social, religious and cultural rights within the scopes of the constitution.

15. Conservation and improvement of environment.

For more information visit:

Also I suggest to send and post the final version in Persian followed by English (or simply a link in English). We can then also post it on front page of site, blog etc... 

replies:

Samsam: Your translation to Parsi is greatly appreciated and as Hovakhshatre mentioned and as stated within the constitutional draft in future Iran the use Persian words instead of foreign and Arabic words will be promoted. I hope with the efforts of you and other caring Iranians like yourself we can form a parrallel truely Persian version of the constitution made available and posted on the site .

Article 11: The official language and script of Iran is Persian. Official documents, correspondence, and texts, as well as text-books, must be in this language and script with the goal of minimizing the use of foreign words including Arabic. In addition to Persian, the right to use regional and tribal languages in the press and mass media, as well as teaching of their literature in schools shall be allowed and protected.

MM: I think grammatically using the word Rasmi once is enough but if others also believe it should be repeated I can add that in. 

Both SamSam and David's sums are concise & give a jest

of what the main body of the secular constitution is about.  Although, I am still looking up and thinking about some of the wordings in SamSam's interpretation, of course by no fault of SamSam, and only because maybe I have been away for too long.  I am ready to distribute as soon as the word is GO.

Just a note in #5, should we say: adam-e vojood-e mazhab-e rasmi va ideology-e rasmi.  The way it sounds now may be interpreted as saying we do not want religion! Or, is it just me?

Actions to consider:

* Please compile ways by which the preamble and the declaration of the human rights can be made viral (e.g., phone calls, emails, Twitter, blogs, Facebook, mirror sites). 

* I will refer the readers to sites where the main text can be examined.

* If you are sending emails, please avoid obvious wordings in the subject text-box since IRI may be able to block emails based on the subject text-box. 

merci

Yes

Hovakhshtare jaan, I know the reality on the ground & the difference between fairy tale vision & limited options. What I meant is to truly envision a fresh start for Neo Iran & Republic of Kiaan based on principles that both you & D have presented yet better structured within the kiaani eggshell to be safeguarded against foreign ideologues in the future . you two manage that & you get my vote ;). Cheers!!!

btw* Farmaanravi should be changed to Khod-raii or khod-fari

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Dear SamSam, I agree with your intent, but there is a time

for everything. And linguistic or other cleansing is a post IRR function. We need to bring this fascist regime down first. Providing Parsi instead of common Farsi would be above the ability of most common people to readily comprehend & absorb it without assistance and clarification; and that could hurt the main objective of education & dissemination of common wants and demands.

پارسی

 دستتون درد نکنه و سپاسگزار  ولی اميدوارم پس از چهارده سده شکيبايي دستور بنيان يا قانون اساسی ايران نوين فارسيش کپی فارسی اخوندا نباشه و واژه سکيولار ديگه اوردنش تو قانون اساسی زيادی تابلوش کرده ولی اگه بايد پس بگيد دنيوي . چيزای ديگه هم هست در باب فرهنگی که الان جاش نيست. شاد باشيد

توده کامی دنيوی ایران ,فرمداريست است بر پایه باور به 

۱-يکپارچگي زمي، خودايستايی و فرمانروی توده ای ایران
۲-ارج به خودايستايی و پکپارچگی ديگر کشورها و تواندهی اشتی ميان همه توده ها و کشورها
۳-فرمدار مردم، بدست مردم و برای مردم.
۴-سه نيروي(توان) جُدای ديواني، دستوری ودادوری  با دوره­های مرزين و پاسخگویی و روشنگري بسنده و همه گير.
۵-نبودن دين یا ایدئولوژی اييني.
۶-جدایی همه گير دين و فرمدار در همه رويگان بدون سوا.
۷-جدایی روحانیون، گروه­ها، باهماد و سازمان­های دينی از فرمدار.
۸-آزادی بیان، اگاهي، باورها ، رسانه ها و همايش
۹-دادگری در دستور
۱۰-انجام دستور بنيان، داتم دادگرانه و روند دستوری دادرسی
۱۱-نبودن زندانی دگرانديشه و باوري
۱۲-هوده و سودگاهی برابر برای همه
۱۳-برابری زن و مرد
۱۴-پناهدهی بسنده و هوانگاهی دستوری از همه هوده مردمي، ديواني، ترازداري، هنجمني، دينی و فرهنگی درون چارچوب دستور بنيان
۱۵-نگهبانی و بهبود فراگرد زیست

David, I'm focusing on the title paragraph to preface article 2

I mentioned in blog, by tomorrow this time, I'll finalize based on feedback, translate finalized paragraph, and then template it for distribution.

For now it is:

"We the people of Iran wish and demand these principles as the pillars of the Secular State of Iran. That these principles form the framework of our vision, mission & purpose that shall guide laws, governing entities, and elected, representatives or their appointed representatives. That no person or entity shall govern, legislate, authorize, or otherwise support laws, legislations, treaties, agreements or undertakings inconsistent with these principles." 

فارسی

۱-تمامیت ارضی، استقلال و حاکمیت ملی ایران
۲-احترام به استقلال و تمامیت سایر کشورها و تشویق صلح نزد تمام ملت­ها و کشورها
۳-دولت مردم، توسط مردم و برای مردم.
۴-سه قوای مستقل مجریه، مقننه و قضاییه­ با دوره­های محدود و پاسخگویی و شفافیت کامل.
۵-عدم وجود مذهب یا ایدئولوژی رسمی.
۶-جدایی کامل مذهب و دولت در تمام سطوح بدون استثنا.
۷-جدایی روحانیون، گروه­ها، احزاب و سازمان­های مذهبی از دولت.
۸-آزادی بیان، اطلاعات، باورها ، رسانه ها و تجمع
۹-عدالت در قوانین
۱۰-اجرای قانون اساسی، قوانین عادلانه و روند قانونی دادرسی
۱۱-عدم وجود زندانی سیاسی و عقیدتی
۱۲-حقوق و فرصت برابر برای همه
۱۳-برابری جنسیتی
۱۴-تضمین کامل و حفاظت حقوقی از تمام حقوق انسانی، سیاسی، اقتصادی، اجتماعی، مذهبی و فرهنگی درون چارچوب قانون اساسی
۱۵-حفظ و بهبود محیط زیست

www.iransecular.org